Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GPDP]

Not sure if anyone cares, but I'm almost done with my gravity tweaks. I've done almost all the Melee characters I felt needed a speed boost. Now all that's left is the Brawl characters, and I've about half of those done already from some time ago.

I'll go ahead and post what I have so far. Brace yourselves for true Fun Speed Activate!

065A9200 000000E0
003944D0 0114F440
02587580 0349E4C0
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063868C0 07566480
08368480 094946D0
0A47C790 0B455480
0C36CB60 0D24C440
0E4786A0 0F06E440
11AB54D0 1245A460
133868C0 14568440
1544C440 1624E830
1745C850 1824C640
1935CB60 1A55E950
1B35CA60 1D45CA30
1E26E640 1F55C640
2045A340 216875C0
22468550 2345CA60
2534F440 2944EA40
2C55C180 2E36CB60
2F34ED40 3F4CCCCD
3F59999A 3F666666
3F733333 3F800000
3F833333 3F866666
3F89999A 3F8CCCCD
3F900000 3F933333
3F966666 3F99999A
3FA00000 3FA66666
3FB33333 3ECCCCCC

Characters tweaked
Mario
Link
Samus
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Bowser
Sheik
Marth
G&W
Falco

Again, what I'm going for here is Melee-esque speed, particularly in regards to shffls. I'm not necessarily advocating we go that far in a final build, but it's a nice starting point from which to work with.

The one I've fallen in love with so far has been Samus. Honestly, I'll throw a fit if her modification doesn't fly. :V Also, try Fox and Captain Falcon for the definition of Fun Speed.

Keep in mind I did not care to preserve established dgrav values or character recoveries when tweaking some of these characters, since these tweaks are in anticipation of the new engine codes, which will make such concerns trivial. Nevertheless, I encourage people to try these out, and hopefully provide feedback for the WBR to work with. I know some, or even many of these values are likely not gonna be accepted as they are (I'm particularly not holding my breath for Bowser), but like I said, these are merely starting points.

 

[[TSON]]

I played the new build.

Oh.

This is horrible.

What have you done to Ness? You removed everything that was valid and replaced it something he didn't need? What kind of trade-off is this? Bring back unlimited PK thunder, please. It was the only thing preventing Ness from relying on the cruddy Zap Jump knockoff that made him a Lucas clone.

And what is this? Increased size on wind hitbox on PSI Magnet? Cool!
Let me go try this out.
Now did any one of you consider how horribly stupid this was to add? Glick and I can agree that this was a horrible idea. You're now making Lucas/Ness matches/dittos even worse than in vBrawl with Lucas's infinite >.>! This is TOO SAFE. I can keep my distance away from a PK2ing foe and screw up their recovery enough to the point where they fall to their death, without any risk to me at all. Before, you had to risk being PK2'd to the face. At the moment, you can run off the edge, do this, and have enough reach to dominate all of offstage horizontally near the ledge. That is not right.

Don't get me started on dtilt, could you not have simply made it laggier (as a tradeoff, throw in increased tripping) so that he cannot **** low recoveries? But no, you had to mess around with another of his comboing capabilites in a negative way. Doesn't look like dtilt -> fsmash will be missed? Well I do miss it. Instead of me doing the comboing out of this, using it onstage gives the foe the opportunity to give you a nice pretty fsmash right out of it whenever you decide to stop. How lovely!

And the super armor? It doesn't work to your advantage. Instead of sucking up multi-hit attacks, it gets all but the finisher move, which blasts you into a combo. That's false advertising! Step it up to Level 2 SA?

Your past changes weren't bad at all! What happened? The PSI Shield was wonderful! Everyone was happy with it! Why was it removed?! And why did you replace it with this useless "super armor"? Come on, guys. We all liked it.

And PK Thunder changes were good enough to make us all teary eyed. It made Ness catch up to Lucas without making him the same. Now that that's gone, poor Ness is left to drift down forever beyond. What was your excuse for this one? The zap jump? Well what did you call it? Let's leave it at that.

All in all, this build made Ness look stupid in comparison to how he was just yesterday. Glick, Count Kaiser and I discussed this on the Brawl+ chat. We concluded that with these new changes (Well, Kaiser didn't agree with the PSI Magnet part but whatever v: ), Ness doesn't play the way he should. All I'm requesting is that he plays correctly.

EDIT: Sorry if this sounds 'ranty'.

:V

 

[CountKaiser]

*sigh*

Ness changes.

Where do I begin?

Zap jump

Well, while this zap jump does look different from Lucas', and while it can be activated by a fair as well as pk fire, I don't think Ness should be given this. I'd like to keep this specific to lucas.

Infinite PKT1

This is the main thing that people are complaining about. Without this, stupid gimps come back from people falling into ness, which is idiotic. People wanted to keep this over the new PSI Magnet, as it not only prevented idiotic gimps, but it also made PKT1 has much less cooldown, which allowed for limited juggling.

Psi Magnet

The old one from Simna's set came out frame 3, was cancelable on the ground, and had horrendous lag. Using it in the air meant death, which put some people off.

The new one has SA frames until frame 7, and has a wind hitbox worth a ****. People seem to not be finding any use for this, except TSON, who thinks it's broken.

Overall, though, people don't see this as a legitimate trade off for infinite PKT1.


With this, I believe I've covered all the major grievances. My thoughts?

Get rid of zap jump, bring back infinite pkt1, and refine the new psi magnet, as it has potential, and the old one being cancelable didn't justify the horrendous lag it had.

To me, everything else is fine. PK Flash didn't need the speed changes, PK fire may need refinement, but overall I like it, and the yoyos are awesome, I don't care enough about dtilt to comment on it, and fair doesn't feel dumb anymore.

 

[GHNeko]

Rather than getting rid of zap jump, why not turn it into a Boost Fair Jump like Fox, and enable only fair to give Ness the height boost. :V

 

[[TSON]]

Rather than getting rid of zap jump, why not turn it into a Boost Fair Jump like Fox, and enable only fair to give Ness the height boost. :V

Yeah that would be the next best thing next to DJC, I guess. v:

 

[shanus]

Because you already can zap jump with Ness' aerials unlike Lucas. Boost Fair is already there if people bothered to test stuff out instead of ranting.

Now Psi Magnet: In simna's own words the JCable Psi magnet only "greatly effected 2 matchups" and it also ruined his ability to stall in the air, and borked him when he absorbed as well. In a time where each individual frame speed addition is a curse causing idle animation bugs, further supporting this claim with extra frame speed lines isn't the ideal addition. Furthermore, it barely added utility to the move except in a few matchups. Call me crazy, but the wind effect I found amazing use for for predicting shield grabs on mix-ups with approaching SHFFLs, new aggressive edgeguards, and did you know it can actually windspike? The move, if anything seems a bit too good for insane spacing where I can constantly predict the opponent and push him away so he can't get near me to punish me on my approaches.

The current Psi Magnet super armor has a 7 frame window with refreshable SA depending on the frame they hit with. So if their multihit moves + hitlag have a spacer duration greater than 7 frames, you will be hit by that. That is what happened when you ate the multihit move but got the finisher. It means, like with many super armor moves, don't try and get too greedy.

Regarding PKT1 & infinite PKT1's: It's easy enough to bring back the speed-up, but are infinite PKT1's truly the right choice? The virtual no endlag was nice for juggles, but it was pretty **** stupid for edgeguards. I laugh when people say eat the first one, then fall on the second, etc., etc. That's making the assumption you are always at low percentage when edgeguarding Ness. Instead you are taking Ness' weakness, his recovery, and making it MUCH harder to make gimpable at all. We might as well give Link TL's upB as well. People here are too afraid of change, and didn't seem to realize how broken the last build which Ness felt so good in was. Why did he feel so good? Oh because his fair could outrange even some of the longest range fsmashes in the game. Hell, it could outspace marth's fair, had set KBG, and could combo into itself many times! Of course Ness mains liked it, because it was too good. Yes, I know you can SDI out part of it, but with the fixed intitial hitboxes, solid SDI out of that was far more limited and usually took longer as well. In which case, if SHFFL it, you could also go into guaranteed utilts, uairs, etc.

PKT2 Damage Buff: 31%? Sorry, thats just unnecessary. The move already has tremendous knockback, it has some limited mix-up utility. It doesn't need to do that much damage, it's already scary enough. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should!



So I ask people, step back for a minute and really think right now. If you had a lagless PKT1, which still went into special fall, would that be enough? Ness is certainly not bad (in fact, I think he is pretty awesome), and if you think he is bad, I'm going to call you out to post videos.

 

[shanus]

LMAO. CAPE FAILS. HE FORGOT TO GIVE BOOZER'S BACKWARDS CRAWL SA. IT ONLY WORKS WITH A FORWARD CRAWL. ROFL.

GG Cape. You fail hard.

ᑈ

Neko, you know what would be useful?

Not this post here.

 

[shanus]

Omg so after playing it zards usmash is horrible. plza change it back to how it was.

And ivy's dsmash to uair was "pretty legit" when people didnt know they could di it. But now they dont even have the option of di. O well.

Yet again, if people read 2 pages before, I openly post that Cape made a mistake in copy pasting the upsmash angle twice thereby messing it up.

EDIT: Correction, it's actually posted 3 pages in a row by different people that it is a known mistake.

Yea the sss isn't worth it if its messing up replays. The sss doesn't even save a second from picking the stage u want.

And i manually add deadlands to. Put deadlands back.

The current SSS allows us to include Wifi Waiting Room without removing a stage from the select list.

 

[timothyung]

What shanus? Triple post? >.>
I would like the window of the zap jump increased by a few frames. With the window now it's quite hard to boost aerial/zap jump.
Also can the power shield window be increased to 2 frames practically? The current 1 frame window makes it too hard to perform even by reaction.

 

[shanus]

What shanus? Triple post? >.>
I would like the window of the zap jump increased by a few frames. With the window now it's quite hard to boost aerial/zap jump.
Also can the power shield window be increased to 2 frames practically? The current 1 frame window makes it too hard to perform even by reaction.

Not a fan of multiquote

The current zap jump window a bit tight, but as you can zap jump aerials, we found at higher frame counts the zap jump get bigger and you do it unintentionally when you just try to do rising aerials.

 

[Me_Aludes]

What shanus? Triple post? >.>
I would like the window of the zap jump increased by a few frames. With the window now it's quite hard to boost aerial/zap jump.
Also can the power shield window be increased to 2 frames practically? The current 1 frame window makes it too hard to perform even by reaction.

Please no.

After playing Ness only 1 hour, I can zap jump 60% of the time in reaction. It's really easy when you get the timing.

And PS projectiles is hella easy too. Not as easy as vBrawl, but far, far easier than Melee. Anyone with a bit of practise can powershield -.-'

 

[PKNintendo]

So I had an alnighter with B+.

Got to say, aside from a few things here and there.
(PK Flash, but hopefully it will get fixed, and PKT)

I'm happy with Ness.
I just have issues with SA timing. It's bit tight no?

 

[PKNintendo]

Because you already can zap jump with Ness' aerials unlike Lucas. Boost Fair is already there if people bothered to test stuff out instead of ranting.

Now Psi Magnet: In simna's own words the JCable Psi magnet only "greatly effected 2 matchups" and it also ruined his ability to stall in the air, and borked him when he absorbed as well. In a time where each individual frame speed addition is a curse causing idle animation bugs, further supporting this claim with extra frame speed lines isn't the ideal addition. Furthermore, it barely added utility to the move except in a few matchups. Call me crazy, but the wind effect I found amazing use for for predicting shield grabs on mix-ups with approaching SHFFLs, new aggressive edgeguards, and did you know it can actually windspike? The move, if anything seems a bit too good for insane spacing where I can constantly predict the opponent and push him away so he can't get near me to punish me on my approaches.

The current Psi Magnet super armor has a 7 frame window with refreshable SA depending on the frame they hit with. So if their multihit moves + hitlag have a spacer duration greater than 7 frames, you will be hit by that. That is what happened when you ate the multihit move but got the finisher. It means, like with many super armor moves, don't try and get too greedy.

Regarding PKT1 & infinite PKT1's: It's easy enough to bring back the speed-up, but are infinite PKT1's truly the right choice? The virtual no endlag was nice for juggles, but it was pretty **** stupid for edgeguards. I laugh when people say eat the first one, then fall on the second, etc., etc. That's making the assumption you are always at low percentage when edgeguarding Ness. Instead you are taking Ness' weakness, his recovery, and making it MUCH harder to make gimpable at all. We might as well give Link TL's upB as well. People here are too afraid of change, and didn't seem to realize how broken the last build which Ness felt so good in was. Why did he feel so good? Oh because his fair could outrange even some of the longest range fsmashes in the game. Hell, it could outspace marth's fair, had set KBG, and could combo into itself many times! Of course Ness mains liked it, because it was too good. Yes, I know you can SDI out part of it, but with the fixed intitial hitboxes, solid SDI out of that was far more limited and usually took longer as well. In which case, if SHFFL it, you could also go into guaranteed utilts, uairs, etc.

PKT2 Damage Buff: 31%? Sorry, thats just unnecessary. The move already has tremendous knockback, it has some limited mix-up utility. It doesn't need to do that much damage, it's already scary enough. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should!



So I ask people, step back for a minute and really think right now. If you had a lagless PKT1, which still went into special fall, would that be enough? Ness is certainly not bad (in fact, I think he is pretty awesome), and if you think he is bad, I'm going to call you out to post videos.

GOD YES!!!

We want lagless PKT1's back!!!
But yeah, the magnet rocks now, but I can't get the SA timing right. (who cares it gimps now)

Yo-yo's are sexy. That is all.
PK Flash speed change was removed due to the engine apparently. When they get a new engine (hopefully) They will add it back in.

Hey Count, you too? PKF feels off to me. On the one hand it can link really well, but sometimes it just put them into the pillar. I wouldn't make this a priority though.


Shanus, I believe this is why we want Infinite PKT'1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-

PS: How are you guys going to make PKT1 lagless?

 

[Alphatron]

Lagless PK Thunder and still getting put into fall special is fine. The old PK Thunder usually still had him die if the first thunder failed, because he was too low to come back by that time.

The loss of the flash speed is the only thing that bothers me aside from current thunder, but the animation glitches weren't worth it.

Would still prefer to have a button command for Luigi's area and the mansion since people seem to hate the place. >_>

 

[MK26]

I'd really like Sonic's level back on the Stage Select screen, at least SOMEWHERE. Kinda lame that Bigblue is up there, but Green Hill isn't.

And am I correct, or are Hannenbow and Green Hill the only removed stages? If so, wtf.

Every stage is present in the SSS, including the WWR. If it isn't on the Brawl screen, it's on the Melee screen.

Exactly how I feel and I also keep manually putting in Deadlands. But the SSS issue; does it affect replays by making them unwatchable? Or is it just the thumbnails for the replays that get messed up?

The SSS causes the game to freeze when scrolling through replays, as well as altering the info shown on the thumbnail. It does not affect the actual data. If you read my guide, you'd know that it's recommended to back up all your old replays on your computer, and load them with a non-SSS codeset. You wouldn't have been able to play them anyways, seeing as how you'd have to reload the old codeset, so I don't see what the problem is. No permanent damage is done.

Post your SSS in Maestro's guide. He will put it on the OP of his SSS guide.

Not necessarily the OP...

There's a guide?!?! Wow, that would have saved me a bunch of time, instead of trying to figure it out by myself... I guess I'm out of it.

lol PC, timothyung requested that I remake your SSS. I've been working on it for a while, and will post it in the SSS thread when it's done. Feel free to PM me for more information.

Not a fan of multiquote

Shanus, I believe this is why we want Infinite PKT'1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-

PS: How are you guys going to make PKT1 lagless?

borked link

 

[PKNintendo]

Sorry. Here's the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-U

And @ Alphatron, PK flash speed will be restored upon the usage of a new engine.

 

[timothyung]

Actually PKNintendo are you complaining the start up, or the winddown of PK flash?

 

[FrozenHobo]

do we have some kind of stage legality list? you can make it based on future changes to stages, but having one would be nice.

 

[shanus]

GOD YES!!!

We want lagless PKT1's back!!!
But yeah, the magnet rocks now, but I can't get the SA timing right. (who cares it gimps now)

Yo-yo's are sexy. That is all.
PK Flash speed change was removed due to the engine apparently. When they get a new engine (hopefully) They will add it back in.

Hey Count, you too? PKF feels off to me. On the one hand it can link really well, but sometimes it just put them into the pillar. I wouldn't make this a priority though.


Shanus, I believe this is why we want Infinite PKT'1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-

PS: How are you guys going to make PKT1 lagless?

Previous ID 11A, Current ID 11B, replace with special fall. This will give you the former PKT1's you had on the ground, and faster PKT1 into special fall in the air.

 

[PKNintendo]

Previous ID 11A, Current ID 11B, replace with special fall. This will give you the former PKT1's you had on the ground, and faster PKT1 into special fall in the air.

Perfect.

I take it back, the new PKF>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The old one by far.

 

[camelot]

If it's replaced with special fall, won't it make you go into the fall-special-ending-lag animation if you use it on the ground? Therefore NOT giving you those former PKT1's?

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually PKNintendo are you complaining the start up, or the winddown of PK flash?

The startup. Wind-down is negligent I guess. (But it was still nice)
But the startup was perfect...

I know it's not a priority though, and I'll wait until I can opt for a faster PK Flash.

 

[GuruKid]

So a bunch of us tested this new nightly out the last half of a smashfest held yesterday.

I originally had a lot to say on other characters, but I'll leave comments to those that actually main them.


First of, I never thought a 5-degree angle change would be so drastic.

Please remove that dthrow angle change. Ivy was an extremely solid character before; anymore buffs (such as this) are just silly attempts to make her an easier character.

Charizard also needs absolutely no change in his usmash. It linked just fine before. He also does not need anymore changes.

Regarding Wolf's changes, please see my above Ivy comment about making characters more "easy mode".

 

[HeroPenguin]

Immediate first impression of 7/20 changes:

I am filled with hate for the new CSS. It's organized in the weirdest way, and what's up with the complete removal of stages? I thought Brawl+ was all about improvement and tweaking. What's the reasoning behind the complete removal of options? It's fine for competitive play to lock out certain stages, but not all of us are competitive players, or want a competitive environment ALL the time. Can we have those stages back in the next build, to keep our options?

What happened to Ness's PK Thunder? Even in vBrawl it could juggle decently if you were smart with it, but now... Now I can't land a consecutive hit until 100+%! I think something got ruined in the removal of the infinite PKT1 (which I still don't quite understand. Why did that need to be removed?)

I already miss PSI Magnet's loss of OOS options, but the improved wind and super armor are intriguing, so I'm not prepared to whine about that one just yet.

I'm extremely fond of the new Dsmash angle. :D

Lucas's new Dthrow angle makes me giddy, but it strikes me as potentially OPd to have a dthrow > Bair spike combo at the edge of the stage... Jury's still out on that one.

Pit's upB Wind effect seems REALLY big. It can really mess with pursuits in the air. I'm not sure if that's intended or not, but it's definitely worthy of mention.

Ganondorf's new Dthrow makes me LOL. It seems too good, too easy to link. Ganondorf seems to slowly be turning into the throw combo champion. I wonder if that's intentional of the BR...

Bowser has superarmor on crouch? LOL. Can't wait to try that one out. CC is back! XD

Bowser's Fsmash hb3 seems to be popping opponents up into perfect range for.... another fsmash? Ferrealz? I'm not sure if this is guaranteed or not, or intentional or not, but.... WOW.

I'll have further impressions later in the day, most likely.

 

[timothyung]

The startup. Wind-down is negligent I guess. (But it was still nice)
But the startup was perfect...

I know it's not a priority though, and I'll wait until I can opt for a faster PK Flash.

Hmm you know, the speed up of the startup only save like 3 frames. Are you sure it really helps?

 

[PKNintendo]

Probably.

And when do you refer to windown, are you referring to the detonation of the move, or as the move travels?

 

[WheelOfFish]

I don't like the changes made to Wolf either. I feel like they make him easier, not better. He's in need of buffs, but I feel like these don't really add to his moveset much.

Excited to try out other characters though, especially Bowser. Crouch super-armor (well, semi-super-armor) sounds interesting.

Edit: Never mind what I said about Wolf. I though you did something weird to his side-b. I like the bigger uair and up-b changes so far.

 

[timothyung]

Probably.

And when do you refer to windown, are you referring to the detonation of the move, or as the move travels?

We can't change how fast projectiles moves yet.
The windup of PK Flash is the time between you press B and the flash comes out. The wind down is the time after Ness detonates the Flash.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ah of course.
I think on their own, their differences don't matter, but together they form a bigger difference.


All in due time of course. I don't think PK Flash can currently be changed.

 

[shanus]

So a bunch of us tested this new nightly out the last half of a smashfest held yesterday.

I originally had a lot to say on other characters, but I'll leave comments to those that actually main them.


First of, I never thought a 5-degree angle change would be so drastic.

Please remove that dthrow angle change. Ivy was an extremely solid character before; anymore buffs (such as this) are just silly attempts to make her an easier character.

Charizard also needs absolutely no change in his usmash. It linked just fine before. He also does not need anymore changes.

Regarding Wolf's changes, please see my above Ivy comment about making characters more "easy mode".

You really thought the DI change on wolfs upB is that big? I found it not that noticable to be honest :-O

Duly noted on the Ivy throw. Also the charizard upsmash we messed up :-O

So I had an alnighter with B+.

Got to say, I'm happy with Ness right now.
I just have issues with SA timing. It's bit tight no?

I can expand the window for the SA, but I would have to remove the ability for the superarmor to refresh on multihits or Ness will become locked in place.

So there are two options:

We have super armor on the start-up window, actionID 115.

Right now, we have it go like this:

Previous ID is 115, Current ID is Hitstun (3 different flavors of it), Replace with 115. This refreshes the 115 SA start-up within a 7 frame window for multihit moves. 7 frames seems to be a happy window for this, as anything bigger seems to lock Ness with multihits, but hitlag saves the day for us enough to offset it with this window.

The other alternative is:

Previous ID is 115, Current ID is (3 different flavors of it), Replace with 11E. This means there will be no lag between the SA window and the absorb window which means itll be able to super armor ONE hitbox and then have about 20 absorb frames till wind hitbox. This will make the move worthless to multihits, but slightly faster and also could expand the super armor window from 7 frames to maybe 10 or so.

 

[timothyung]

You really thought the DI change on wolfs upB is that big? I found it not that noticable to be honest :-O

What it does now is letting you DI when he reaches the apex, instead of falling a bit before you can DI.

 

[HeroPenguin]

Shanus, is it possible for a new Nightly build to be fast-tracked with a fix for Charizard's Usmash? I really want to be able to get some more impressions up, and Charizard is one of my local player's best characters. I'd like to be able to see how some of these changes interact with a fully functional Charizard. Especially Bowser and Ness.

 

[timothyung]

Shanus, is it possible for a new Nightly build to be fast-tracked with a fix for Charizard's Usmash? I really want to be able to get some more impressions up, and Charizard is one of my local player's best characters. I'd like to be able to see how some of these changes interact with a fully functional Charizard. Especially Bowser and Ness.

Yes, fix it.

1D0B6E28 02053032
05640002 00140000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

This is the doubled part... Just remove one of them and release a fixed one.

 

[GuruKid]

You really thought the DI change on wolfs upB is that big? I found it not that noticable to be honest :-O

Duly noted on the Ivy throw. Also the charizard upsmash we messed up :-O

It's really that silly uair hitbox buff that annoyed me, though I'm no fan of the upB change either. I think Wolf's previous crappy upB (in terms of recovery) perfectly offset his beastly on-stage game. Though the upB change is small, it's considerably more forgiving now, and it's a small step in the wrong direction for Wolf.

And yeah, I figured that Charizard usmash was a mistake, but still, the fact that you guys are even touching that move worries me. It needs no improvement; the move was fine the way it was.

Ivysaur was already solid. Needs no further changes.
Charizard was already solid. Needs no further changes.

 

[CountKaiser]

Shanus, your comments on infinite PKT1 are, if nothing else, a little shocking. I was under the impression that infinite PKT1 was put in to prevent someone from just jumping into the **** thing and instantly screwing Ness over. Now you don't want it in because it actually buffs Ness's recovery?

Falco400 stated that the intended purpose of PKT1 was to stop stupid deaths, not to buff his recovery. Here are his words here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5F2F7SatWY&feature=channel_page

Infinite PKT1 never buffed Ness's recovery, nor did it hold the Ness main's hand when they used it. Rather, it prevented the game holding the other person's hand when they wanted to gimp ness. Please rethink this.

 

[timothyung]

GuruKid, it's just to fix a move to do what it's supposed to do. Charizard's Usmash first hit is supposed to link to the second hit, so they try to make the hits connect better. The change is fine.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i have to say, i'm liking the current ness. PM is sooo fun to use. the wind is when the attack is ending so i can just hold it and wait for the opportunity. i think a faster up b would work, but giving him multiple is just too much. the dude wrecks on stage, he needs a weakness. i'm also finding it hard to land PKFs, but i don't use them much anyway so its not that big of a deal.

i haven't checked out charizard's usmash, but it sounds like its being taken care of.

i still would like to see popo getting SA frames on belay from when nana grabs the ledge to when she starts pulling up. its like 2 frames, but it makes a big difference.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Wolf's freefall DI is still terrible. It's a really small change honestly. The change to his uair is a little more noticeable though.

 

[FrozenHobo]

edit: wrong board.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I have to say I'm quite grateful for the Wolf Up-B buff. It really isn't anything significant, but it takes the edge off the stupidity of the move's DI, kind of how the old Ness recovery buff helped him. Neither buff really makes either of their recoveries any better, just less stupid. -__-

Now Lylat and to a lesser extent Final Destination are no longer stages that are worthy of striking by a Wolf main.