Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[the_judge]

Wait so your saying that just because he was top teir in Vbrawl means he should be top tier in Brawl+? That doesn't make any sense, he should be nerfed to be just as good as everyone else, maybe even closer to average than others since most people are tired of him from vbrawl.

*cough*captainfalcon*cough*same_thing*cough

REVENGE for the Captain Falcon users!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

MK should be nerfed so that other people can catch up to his brokenness. Seriously. OK, not brokenness anymore, but "epic"ness. He is still really good.

I assume no one will be happy until MK ends up somewhere in mid-tier.
Seriously, everyone wants him nerfed so that other chars can keep up with him, and now they can. Either ppl are just hating on MK or don't know how to fight him. I know the "Learn the matchup" statement is used a lot, but it is on you if you lose.

Does he have to be horrible till your are satisfied? Does he have to give up top? Does he need everything in his arsenal nerfed just so you can not worry about the matchup anymore when it is on YOU to learn how to fight him? All of this is just bias towards the brokenness he was in vBrawl.

he's still amazing, in fact I believe he is among the best still. just learn how to play him. I play MK in vbrawl and brawl+. they do play completely different, but trust me, MK is still hella ****ing good.
best edgeguards in the game anyone?

I know that, and I'm a well experienced MK player in both. But i hate that every1 would rather have MK nerfed than their char buffed. His godly reputation in vBrawl has ruined ppl's image of him in B+.
Any future nerfs should be understood by MK players, not just based on complaints.

If MK ends up lower on the tier list after this game reaches full circle I am perfectly fine with that, just please don't start nerfing when we are unsure about how he is received in tournaments.

 

[GHNeko]

The thing is, as MK is now, He is either too good or too horrible.

We're simply just going to use the hitbox code to make a midpoint between those two settings.

IIRC, that's what I believe we are going to do. Miiiight be wrong. No one to double check with.

 

[cubaisdeath]

yeah, I don't mind the nerfing either, I think as of now they have nerfed him appropriately. he no longer has any "guaranteed victory" matchups anymore.

just speeding up every character has already put MK in a harder position because now he doesn't have a speed advantage over almost every character in the game lol.

most people just complain because he is MK. IMO he is like sagat in a way. his moveset is just too good no matter what. he is gonna be a good character with his given moveset, unless everyone decides to make all of his moves do 1% and no KB, which won't happen

EDIT: Also, you can't nado spam, which already makes MK bad enough lol

 

[GHNeko]

You can semi-spam it xD

If anything, its easier to abuse on levels with no platforms, as you can cover the ground more efficently than before, where pressing it too much would make you rise, but you had to mash it to extend the length.

Plus its a wicked recovery move above the stage from long distances. You aim it right, and you can recovery from slightly above teh stage, near off screen on FD, and stay level with the stage the whole trip.

MK is still 2gud. Not too good in the sense he is too good, but 2gud as in he's 2gud.

 

[the_judge]

The thing is, as MK is now, He is either too good or too horrible.

We're simply just going to use the hitbox code to make a midpoint between those two settings.

IIRC, that's what I believe we are going to do. Miiiight be wrong. No one to double check with.

Any hitbox mods/nerfs I'll accept, because chances are I'll learn them anyway. Only other thing off the top of my head I can say needs fixing is hitstun on tornado (I'm playin my friend right now btw). I noticed that I can tornado a shielding opponent and move away at the last second and I'm completely safe and they are down 50% of their shield. And how I can get an easy up+B after a landed tornado, it looks DIable but still kinda easy for me with 0 buffer. Last aspect i feel is really broken.

 

[cubaisdeath]

yeah, I noticed a lot of shield stun on the nado too. almost everything has a lot of shield stun though >.>

 

[GHNeko]

If its escapable by DI, then its not really an issue.

If its inescabple by DI, look at the after effects. How much damage does it rack. Is it effective? Is it useful? How spammable? How potent is it overall? Can it kill?

etc etc, when you figure these you, come back to use with feedback and suggestions.

 

[cubaisdeath]

lol I used to do nado -> upB in vbrawl all the time. I'm pretty sure you can escape the combo with DI, its just that hardly anyone expects it. in b+ there are way more (safer) options than using upB. I don't think its spammable though neko. even if someone DOES spam it, its not like they are gonna run into the upB 1000x before they realize its ****** them

 

[GHNeko]

So its not really an issue? Nor does it deserve a nerf?

 

[cubaisdeath]

its not an issue really. doing ftilt after the nado is way more effective anyways

 

[Yingyay]

MK's fine, learn to adapt.

^ This

I ope nothing gets done to anyone's hitboxes that'll change the way they play. I mean if a utilt hits you from 1/2 screen thats the only time I'll accept a hitbox change. And since no such attack exists like that....well you know.

 

[kupo15]

Ok, I updated my set but I never had the time to test it. Please let me know if something is screwy or whatnot.

 

[Yingyay]

Ok, I updated my set but I never had the time to test it. Please let me know if something is screwy or whatnot.

I think you should make your own nightly build/update thread. Since you might have slightly different tweaks than the official versions. It would be less confusing as well.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Ok, I updated my set but I never had the time to test it. Please let me know if something is screwy or whatnot.

Is the "ROB airdodge freeze" fixed?

For those who don't know, wen ROB airdodges and hits the ground (in kupo15's set), he freezes, and cannot move (NOT T-stance, it is wierd) until someone hits him.

Edit: NVM, it is.

 

[goodoldganon]

Please, no more MK nerfs. He is already nerfed to the point that either he doesn't hold top tier with an iron sword, or that he possibly might not be top at all.
Not saying i love vbrawl mk's brokenness, but I feel you shouldn't purposely knock a really good character down so many levels that they lose that title.

Just my .02 cents

Figured I'd make a guest appearance so I could own some more people.

MK, like Snake, has vBrawl held over his head because they were considered so much better then everyone else. This is not and never will affect a serious Back Room decision on a character. Most of us are very happy with MK as he is now. If being top tier was a good enough reason to keep a character down, we'd be nerfing Marth (well more then he is) and Fox for being the bests in Melee (and wasn't Fox **** good in 64?)

Point is, babies will be babies and whiners will always whine. If MK is still the best character in Brawl+ we are fine with that, as long as he is still beatable, has weakness, counterpicks, and other downsides. Things he really didn't have in vBrawl. He had some tough matchups, but I think besides for Wario he had the advantage against everyone. That being said, we are looking at two hitbox readjustments to MK, and I will share both of them with you.

Tornado: If we nerf the Tornado size to 80% of it's original size and then remove the winddown nerf, will it still be a good move? Will it be too good again? Currently, even it's nerfed state, the move can still distort a few matchups against characters.

U-air: MK can still plank with his U-air. Nerfing the winddown makes it a worse combo move and adjusting KB won't address the problem. I can almost guarantee SOMETHING size related will be done to the U-air so MK can not plank.

Overall though, as I said, we are very fine with MK. Besides U-air planking he is a very solid and beatable character, but still one of the games bests. Now that I have shared BR insight, let's move away from MK please.

 

[illWill]

Ok, I updated my set but I never had the time to test it. Please let me know if something is screwy or whatnot.

I think you should make your own nightly build/update thread. Since you might have slightly different tweaks than the official versions. It would be less confusing as well.

I second Yingyay. Your set is significantly different and honestly deserves its own thread. I'm surprised you don't have your own page to discuss your set Kupo. It sure as hell would be a lot easier to track and discuss without having to go through Plussery. I know you use many codes from Plussery but I prefer your codeset and I would like to see you in your own thread man.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

^^^
This. However, what would this thread be for if only the Brawl+ Nightly Build was in it? It would be a lot of threads to keep track of. Also, if he created a home page, that would be too many websites, lol

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

being a MK user, I say I wouldn't mind if he was a tiny bit lighter. I feel like I live through things that I shouldn't.

You know Seth in Street Fighter 4? He's all out attack, crazy pressuring attack. but he's fragile as hell... just kinda what I figured MK would be like. sorry, I'm just wasting space aren't I?

I am going to test out Kupo's set later today. and from the sound of things, you could use your own thread for feedback purposes.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

No, you aren't wasting space. Meh, MK is still good, you just can't combo with such ease. Now, you have to play smarter.

BTW, just so I know, what are the: hitbox codes, momentum codes, hitbox property codes, frame speed codes, character specific jump/gravity codes, and how do use them? I mean move ID's, character ID's, sample values that people use, etc., and how stuff is edited.

I would like to fool around with this stuff.

 

[camelot]

being a MK user, I say I wouldn't mind if he was a tiny bit lighter. I feel like I live through things that I shouldn't.

You know Seth in Street Fighter 4? He's all out attack, crazy pressuring attack. but he's fragile as hell... just kinda what I figured MK would be like. sorry, I'm just wasting space aren't I?

I am going to test out Kupo's set later today. and from the sound of things, you could use your own thread for feedback purposes.

There is a really old code that increases the knockback he takes by 5%

 

[Almas]

Said code was eventually removed because reducing the knockback MK takes makes him even more resilient against combos, making him harder to kill in the long run. It is inevitable that by making someone easier to kill off the blast zones you make it harder to put them there in the first place.

 

[MookieRah]

Your set is significantly different and honestly deserves its own thread.

Nope, his set isn't much different at all.

If Kupo decided to make his set different then he needs to stop ganking the Plussery set and just making a few changes from it. It's only fair that his set be, ya know... his set. Seriously, over 95% of "his set" is our set, he cannot claim any "ownership" of his set. If he is going to advertise his own set then he needs to stop stealing the hard work of the plussery.

 

[Almas]

Oh shush Mookie.

Another thread isn't warranted because I don't want this board to be utterly consumed by Brawl+. It just wouldn't be fair. Provided you're clear with your descriptions, issues shouldn't be arising. Hey, maybe not posting unless you're going to contribute to discussion would help too?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Well, yeah, they are PRETTY MUCH the same codes, but they are copletely different values. You can't tell it at first glance, but Kupo's Set is very different from the Plussery.

Ex: Jump values are different, hitbox is very different, stage sizes are different, gravity values are different, zairs/airdodges hav lag, etc.

Read kupo's set, for example. here is a segment of it here:

Main difference from the Plussery

The main goal I have for this set is the movement. My frame speed mods and hitbox mods are pretty similar differing slightly except including a couple things the plussery doesn't use because it is "unnecessary" which I state those changes. But the main thing that sets my set apart would be the pace of play and movement. It is generally faster paced than the plussery because my dash speed is higher, gravity is higher, hitstun is lower, momentum is higher, and jumps are stronger.

My set also focuses more on game mechanics and having them solve the problems of the game instead of frame speed mods. I use No air dodge in tumble and Fast fall in tumble as an example.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, yeah, they are PRETTY MUCH the same codes, but they are copletely different values. You can't tell it at first glance, but Kupo's Set is very different from the Plussery.

Ex: Jump values are different, hitbox is very different, stage sizes are different, gravity values are different, zairs/airdodges hav lag, etc.

Read kupo's set, for example. here is a segment of it here:

Main difference from the Plussery

The main goal I have for this set is the movement. My frame speed mods and hitbox mods are pretty similar differing slightly except including a couple things the plussery doesn't use because it is "unnecessary" which I state those changes. But the main thing that sets my set apart would be the pace of play and movement. It is generally faster paced than the plussery because my dash speed is higher, gravity is higher, hitstun is lower, momentum is higher, and jumps are stronger.

My set also focuses more on game mechanics and having them solve the problems of the game instead of frame speed mods. I use No air dodge in tumble and Fast fall in tumble as an example.

NOT TRUE

if you look at the actual codes you would see less than 10% of the VALUES actually being different.
the ONLY differences his set has (and with that the only thing kupo actually CHANGED from the official set) are the ones he listed.
compare that tiny list with the nightly changelist and you know what I mean.

kupo actually didn't notice some things that were in and in reply to someone that actually did notice, he said: "I didn't know, I didn't touch it."

so much for his "own" set

 

[MookieRah]

I'm sorry Almas, but this needs to be addressed. I don't know how you feel about it, but trust me, jacking the hard work of the plussery, making a few borked changes, and calling it "his set" is downright unethical, and honestly I find it offensive. It's one thing if he said it was changes "for fun" but his agenda is to make his set "the set" for competitive play. We put in a lot of time and effort into making B+ what it is, and he is riding our coat-tails and trying to push his agenda through our work.

 

[XSilvenX]

Kupo's set thread - I don't see the problem with making his own thread if it helps with organization. It gets annoying to see Kupo come in here and talk about issues that have nothing to do with "Brawl+ Nightly Builds" and other people wasting space talking about it too. The thread is cluttered as it is and since he wants to call it his own version of Brawl+ he might as well have his own thread.

Mk nerfing - I don't support it. Making Tornado have cooldown was good enough for me. Personally the only thing I felt cheap about MK was the Tornado and how a spinning move had absolutely no lag. Obviously the original developers didn't predict MK would dominate every other aspect of competitive play but he did and that's not something developers can predict. I'm assuming they thought he was gonna be a bad character and gave him the lagless tornado as a pity gift. "Oh he's so bad, let him have a fast move with no lag at all". That sort of thing. He's fine as it is, until other issues arise I see no need to nerf the guy. I also don't see the point in modding hitboxes for the guy, they're perfectly suitable and not really broken at all.

Tornado: If we nerf the Tornado size to 80% of it's original size and then remove the winddown nerf, will it still be a good move? Will it be too good again? Currently, even it's nerfed state, the move can still distort a few matchups against characters.
.

Bad idea. The problem wasn't really with the hitbox. It will certainly help people hit MK out of his tornado but most good players use tornado on sidesteps and a smaller hitbox won't help at all. It will just go back to the same old tornado spamming we saw in vbrawl with a little bit more risk for MK. Only a few characters can reliably hit MK out of his tornado as it is so this is a really bad idea.

 

[GHNeko]

Uair? Planking? Trying to cut down on that...you know..

 

[cubaisdeath]

Maybe adding some cooldown on the uair would be a good thing though. Although I don't edge camp in b+ I did explore it for a bit. the rate that you can uair from the edge, and regrab on is absurdly fast.

maybe a cooldown on the ending isn't what it needs. just give it lag on startup by like 3-4 frames, so it isn't a 2 frame move that clips through the stage when you decide to edge camp

 

[Mattnumbers]

The only real concern about Metaknight I have is that I don't really think there SHOULD be a top tier in brawl+, I mean, I know you can't balance it perfectly but I really think there should only be 3 tier sections (Low, Middle, and High). Then again, maybe by top tier you DO mean high tier. I guess the definitions are kinda interchangeable.

Anyways, I still think that Lucas should get no special fall on his PK Freeze. When you B-stick (as all good Lucas's should, it is much more effective than doing it manually), you sometimes use PK freeze when you are going for Psimagnet (and sometimes PK fire), and it is much harder to avoid than it sounds. I really don't think it would be much of a buff and it would fix some annoying suicides, so please consider putting it in.

 

[GHNeko]

Maybe adding some cooldown on the uair would be a good thing though. Although I don't edge camp in b+ I did explore it for a bit. the rate that you can uair from the edge, and regrab on is absurdly fast.

maybe a cooldown on the ending isn't what it needs. just give it lag on startup by like 3-4 frames, so it isn't a 2 frame move that clips through the stage when you decide to edge camp

We tried adding wind down lag to uair, and it made uair worthless as a combo move, which is a huge blow to MK's game.

Anyways, I still think that Lucas should get no special fall on his PK Freeze. When you B-stick (as all good Lucas's should, it is much more effective than doing it manually), you sometimes use PK freeze when you are going for Psimagnet (and sometimes PK fire), and it is much harder to avoid than it sounds. I really don't think it would be much of a buff and it would fix some annoying suicides, so please consider putting it in.

...You realize that is something brought upon to yourself due to custom controls...right?

 

[cubaisdeath]

you do know that when you b-stick your moves, you only do the neutral one if you hold 30 degrees lower than straight horizontal on control stick and press around
45 degrees lower than straight horizontal on the other direction on the C stick.

 

[Mattnumbers]

...You realize that is something brought upon to yourself due to custom controls...right?

As I said, almost all Lucas players use c-stick as B, so its not only me.

you do know that when you b-stick your moves, you only do the neutral one if you hold 30 degrees lower than straight horizontal on control stick and press around
45 degrees lower than straight horizontal on the other direction on the C stick.

I don't really know where your going with this, it still happens off stage and leads to your death.

 

[cubaisdeath]

if you bstick normally with the control stick its just as easy, and gives you less chance of an error.


back to the MK thing, how would it destroy his combo game? he can only combo with it at low percents as is, and at mid-high percents the most you can combo with is uair to shuttle loop IF the DI the uair bad. I don't see why a cooldown wouldn't be ok, but I'll take your word for it I guess.

I don't even know why MK players camp in b+. his rushdown game is absolutely amazing and I love it. leave edge camping to vbrawl lol

 

[Mattnumbers]

if you bstick normally with the control stick its just as easy, and gives you less chance of an error.

No, it isn't, and it is also more effective as the effects depend on how fast you do it and with b-sticking that speed is almost instant.

 

[GHNeko]

if you bstick normally with the control stick its just as easy, and gives you less chance of an error.


back to the MK thing, how would it destroy his combo game? he can only combo with it at low percents as is, and at mid-high percents the most you can combo with is uair to shuttle loop IF the DI the uair bad. I don't see why a cooldown wouldn't be ok, but I'll take your word for it I guess.

I don't even know why MK players camp in b+. his rushdown game is absolutely amazing and I love it. leave edge camping to vbrawl lol

The histun is only long enough for the quick swips IIRC. To keep uair from planking, you have to add x amount of lag, but with x, the uair becomes worthless for comboing.

Also, players camp cuz sometimes its effective on a stage/character/ or specific person/playstyle.

 

[cubaisdeath]

no, the effects depend on your momentum going in a given direction.

edit: uair is a decent combo move at best. like I said, even now you can only do a few hits at low percents, and uair to up b at higher ones. its not gonna be too bad if you add 2-3 frames of startup lag. the move is too easy to DI for it to combo into most moves anyways. I don't really think its an issue

 

[Mattnumbers]

no, the effects depend on your momentum going in a given direction.

Depending on when you use pkfire/psimagnet after you jump, you will end up differently. With the b-stick you can do that as soon as you jump, while manually doing it takes longer. Go to the Lucas boards and read about b-sticking, it is easier, more spammable, and faster.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I'm sorry Almas, but this needs to be addressed. I don't know how you feel about it, but trust me, jacking the hard work of the plussery, making a few borked changes, and calling it "his set" is downright unethical, and honestly I find it offensive. It's one thing if he said it was changes "for fun" but his agenda is to make his set "the set" for competitive play. We put in a lot of time and effort into making B+ what it is, and he is riding our coat-tails and trying to push his agenda through our work.

The best solution to this is to strike up an affiliation. Take the best aspects of the Nightly Builds and blend them with the Plussery.

 

[cubaisdeath]

Depending on when you use pkfire/psimagnet after you jump, you will end up differently. With the b-stick you can do that as soon as you jump, while manually doing it takes longer. Go to the Lucas boards and read about b-sticking, it is easier, more spammable, and faster.

zap jumping and b-sticking are different. doing it manually DOESN'T take longer. especially since you have 10 frames to buffer it in vbrawl, and I can do it perfectly fine with 0 frames to buffer it.

it may be more spammable, but who cares about spam? thats not always the best tactic.

just be more precise and you won't kill yourself with neutral b so often