Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[GHNeko]

I love how up to date the PAL B+ is...

We have no PAL coders/porters.

I have no clue why this has to be repeated sooo many times. :/

None of our NTSC coders has PAL Brawl nor do they understand how to port. TPK was our only coder and I'm not even sure if we have one now.

FPC for PAL is needs to be updated and we need someone to port .pacs to PAL as well.

:/

 

[FrozenHobo]

tethers suck already, i don't see a reason to worry about it... unless tethering the stage rests it/starts again on them grabbing... then thats bad.

 

[Rikana]

We have no PAL coders/porters.

I have no clue why this has to be repeated sooo many times. :/

None of our NTSC coders has PAL Brawl nor do they understand how to port. TPK was our only coder and I'm not even sure if we have one now.

FPC for PAL is needs to be updated and we need someone to port .pacs to PAL as well.

:/

Where did TPK go anyways?

 

[GHNeko]

CP'd by IRL.

100: 0 MU in favor of IRL.

 

[DaiAndOh]

I noticed with Sonic's' down+b (and sideb I think), when I push A to do the jump, it jumps with the attack of the direction I press, or nair if none. If this was unintentional, please fix this, as it makes using it to edgeguard impossible and as far as I see, takes away options as it took a simple 2nd button press to do the aerial normally. If done on purpose, is there any logic behind it?

Also as someone posted earlier, the tumbling thing. Moves aren't exactly causing tumble? Airdodge during tumble gone? I'm not sure exactly myself?

Overall though, I want to thank those that worked on this project!

 

[Revven]

It's just an animation error with the tumble that Yeroc already knows the problem to and afaik has already fixed.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't think any of the characters with tethers are good plankers anyways, although I may be forgetting something.

I can attest to said tumble glitch.
Also, two more things:
1. Did you guys know you can tech the second hit of Diddy's Fsmash, negating its use as a kill move?
2. Distant Planet's rain animation stays after it stops raining, and when it does it becomes frozen.
3. I don't really expect this to change, and in fact I don't even want it to be changed that much, but Zelda's jab hits behind her. Inb4 someone brings up me and Zelda nerfs.......

The release is great, and the game really looks more official now, also the amount of stages increased by more than I expected, and I see more stage fixes coming. The fact that 90% of stages are viable is amazing. I'm waiting for the changelist as I can't test extensively right now, and I'm sure I'll run into even more happy surprises once it's done.

By the way, It's so great to see how far this project has come. Great things have happened here because of some amazing people. When Brawl was released (well, after I got bored of it), I always wished that Nintendo could somehow update it with balance and other changes to make it better. Then I found Brawl+, and got to watch that come true. Thank you, everyone who worked on this, especially for the incredibly gigantic amount of *****ing you have gone through over the past year.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

I decided (with the suggestion of a friend) to help puerto rico Brawl/melee players to play brawl+

how will I do that... I don't know, but to start, I must do the following:

- direct them to this thread

- a change list of what has been done to the game, such as physics and all

- a change list of character changes

- make videos of how to use certain things that Vbrawl didn't had

- direct the on how to mod a wii (not this forum, maybe youtube) and how to instal B+ (yay for the updater)

there are some B+ platers around which is a start, maybe doing a tourney of B+ once all issues of this set are fixed may hype some more people to try the game

Puerto Rico never had a Brawl+ tourney before, hopefully this set will be a nice start

 

[GHNeko]

1. Don't direct them to this thread. This thread gets hella dumb when talking about B+.

2. Show them that when its ready.

3. This will be in the same document that #2 is listed in.

4. This will be a really good thing to do.

5. You dont need to mod your console, and that should be a selling point imo.

 

[ValTroX]

it can be REALLY hard to show the game to close mided people NAMQ. We still have to play gotta plan something.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

wow man. so you guys turned Brawl into Melee

Congrats LOL

 

[MK26]

wow man. so you guys turned Brawl into Melee

Congrats LOL

No, that's Project:M

This is Brawl+: Smash 3.1, not Melee 2.0

 

[GHNeko]

wow man. so you guys turned Brawl into Melee

Congrats LOL

EDIT: Also, see my signature. VVVVVV

 

[Yeroc]

There are a couple of flaws with this logic.

Having the texture/pac data on the SD card doesn't truly make load time "static." It will not reduce load time if other data is in the loading queue, such as a stage transformation, or any occasion of loading data mid-match. Lylat Cruise is the poster child of this crime.

If that data is already loaded, such as a double Sheik/double Zelda team, then you'll wind up with a Transform time that is actually better than what Ryoko's (actually Magus's) change was originally.

The whole point of that Transform change before was to make *vulnerability* time static, which does not change regardless of how long/short the actual loading time of the other half is. This minimizes the random load time variable to the other players' ability to use downtime to charge up special moves or get into a favorable position. With the normal Transform time, the factor of what you can do to punish it based on the load time which is *still* subject to randomness greatly increases. The previously changed Transform before also left you vulnerable for a very extended amount of time, enough to punish if you did not the proper space, or are against someone with an annoying projectile such as Pit/Falco. It was only "unpunishable" if the player was actually using it correctly as intended. The change was done because the mid-game loading mechanisms of Brawl are flawed in a way that SD loaders are only capable of making imperfect band-aid fixes, and I'm disappointed that that logic was already forgotten.

The problem was, it really was unpunishable, as you said, when used correctly. The risk/reward balance was completely upended from overwhelmingly in favor of the attacker to overwhelmingly in favor of the defender. The interrupts on the exit animations for both sides was on frame 2. Going from Zelda to Sheik, it was both very possible and very easy to have a hitbox active 5 frames upon instantiation. The other way around, slightly less so, but Zelda was capable of 6 or 7 frames vulnerability. This can't be reacted to, and so long as you're smart enough to transform when the opponent is more than half a stage away, which most people are, you got out for free. Everybody knows the issue at hand is the Brawl loading queue is a piece of **** and has no place in a precision timing-based competitive game. I'm doing what I can to minimize it's impact, instead of giving the players a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Edit: Combine this with the fact that PT never got any sort of comparable special treatment, I decided to just tackle the root cause of the issue as best I could. Stage Loading issues can also be examined and maybe mitigated by more SD files?

 

[Wavebuster]

The problem was, it really was unpunishable, as you said, when used correctly. The risk/reward balance was completely upended from overwhelmingly in favor of the attacker to overwhelmingly in favor of the defender. The interrupts on the exit animations for both sides was on frame 2. Going from Zelda to Sheik, it was both very possible and very easy to have a hitbox active 5 frames upon instantiation. The other way around, slightly less so, but Zelda was capable of 6 or 7 frames vulnerability. This can't be reacted to, and so long as you're smart enough to transform when the opponent is more than half a stage away, which most people are, you got out for free. Everybody knows the issue at hand is the Brawl loading queue is a piece of **** and has no place in a precision timing-based competitive game. I'm doing what I can to minimize it's impact, instead of giving the players a get-out-of-jail-free card.

This seems to only be about the principle of "should Zelda/Sheik be able to transform safely if they have half a stages+ (really...?) worth of space?" rather than actually fixing the loading issue with the resources available.

I don't see why they shouldn't.

If you knock them that far for the sake of Transforming, you're denying yourself the opportunity to pursue in favor of using the other half, which is another variable which has no guarantee of working in your favor, bearing in mind that this is actually still a non-random variable.

It was originally balanced with the greatly extended, upfront vulnerability time in mind. If you don't get to interrupt the Transform properly because the user decided to use it properly by making the space and devoting that much time to use it, there should not be any additional incoming faults of the user. Tough love. Since Zelda and Sheik both have no 1-frame response to grabs, it's actually possible for a Wario bite for a Ganon choke to nab them right out of it even with the instant movement.

Rather than try to think you can punish them out of the Transform after it has progressed, you could take the time to charge a special move if you have it, move to a better position, not stupidly stand right on top of them because the position is not in your favor to react to, or grab them if you're ballsy.

The only reasoning for this revertion seems to be people assuming they can still punish the move after the slow initial windup has passed, and failing at it.

The "problem" of being "unpunishable when used correctly" sounds absolutely ******** even in context here.

As far as PT, the reason a similar fix could not be done for him was because the previous Pokemon's pokeball must return to PT's hand before the next Pokemon is released. It was a limiting factor that disregarded whether the data was loaded or not, that the frame speed engine could not target.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

On the topic of the tumble animation bug, I've noticed that it seems to steal single jumpers' second jumps when it happens.

Or it happens when the single jumpers have no jumps left. Not sure.

 

[Yeroc]

The only example you posted that didn't still rely on a fortuitous occurrence of having a discreet hitbox or grabbox active during the end of the load time is the Wario bite. All others required timing and, essentially, a measure of luck. Why should Wario get that sort of exception? It's a pretty powerful one at that, since bite is a good starter for a number of Wario's strings and punishment options. So the Z/S player is doubly boned against a Wario, because they're now hamstrung by a telegraphed startup animation and indiscreet invincibility period which the Wario can abuse to take away the only advantage they were given in the whole affair, a free escape, because he can just hang a grab out there where they can't do anything about it, and then he gets a free bite to do with the Zelda as he chooses.

Add to that the fact that with some players using their own textures in an effort to combat the load time problem, you get inconsistency across multiple setups in a tournament environment. While I'm also of the opinion that TOs should be disallowing custom textures to be used on tournament setups, this provides a standard of uniformity outside of the construct of the game itself. You can rely on the transform to have X amount of startup, Y amount of punishable cooldown, and a predictably consistent middle period whether you're playing on this Wii or that. All Brawl+ setups have Zelda textures, all Brawl+ setups have the same measure of control on the duration of the transform invincibility period.

Edit: I've isolated the tumble bug and removed it. It will be patched in the forthcoming minor revision, and rerelease of the correct pac versions and possibly the SSS code.

 

[Rikana]

Is there a way to change my .pacs and gct back to 6.0? I forgot about a replay that I had on my Wii.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I've isolated the tumble bug and removed it. It will be patched in the forthcoming minor revision, and rerelease of the correct pac versions and possibly the SSS code.

So was this an error in a code, and fixed by altering the code? If so, what code(s) is/are being changed?
I'm curious since I don't want to have to re-add in a bunch of my custom codes (like stage stuff, as well as cosmetic stuff) again to a fresh .txt, and would just rather replace the altered code.

 

[Yeroc]

ADT code: 80585FF8 -> 80585EF8 Should fix it.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Yeroc, pardon this question but:

if I update now, will I be able to play without the game freezing in the middle of the fight?

I know that 6.0 had only one bug and was the winning screen freeze if buttons were pressed or something like it

if all bugs are out once I update that should work for me to get some replays to make a B+ AT's video, from basic stuff to advance stuff, I hope I can get a good vid so people can understand more of B+, and I'm talking to the closed minded people in Puerto Rico ^^

 

[Wind Owl]

[COLLAPSE=Regarding Wario Bite]The only example you posted that didn't still rely on a fortuitous occurrence of having a discreet hitbox or grabbox active during the end of the load time is the Wario bite. All others required timing and, essentially, a measure of luck. Why should Wario get that sort of exception? It's a pretty powerful one at that, since bite is a good starter for a number of Wario's strings and punishment options. So the Z/S player is doubly boned against a Wario, because they're now hamstrung by a telegraphed startup animation and indiscreet invincibility period which the Wario can abuse to take away the only advantage they were given in the whole affair, a free escape, because he can just hang a grab out there where they can't do anything about it, and then he gets a free bite to do with the Zelda as he chooses.[/COLLAPSE]

OK, so it's a disadvantage in one matchup. (Note that amusingly, it's actually possible for the transform to outlast the bite and Wario can be punished). Matchup-specific BS happens all the time, and this isn't even game-breaking. I don't see how it should be used to determine the merit of the entire mechanic. Also, the best case scenario is the same as that of the current system―you space the Transform outside of Bite range, no loading interruptions occur, and you can interrupt before he can bite you. Furthermore, the interrupt still forces Wario to use Bite, which may set up for some combos, but isn't the same as a fully charged Fsmash or meaty Waft.

[COLLAPSE=Regarding System-Dependent Load Time]Add to that the fact that with some players using their own textures in an effort to combat the load time problem, you get inconsistency across multiple setups in a tournament environment. While I'm also of the opinion that TOs should be disallowing custom textures to be used on tournament setups, this provides a standard of uniformity outside of the construct of the game itself. You can rely on the transform to have X amount of startup, Y amount of punishable cooldown, and a predictably consistent middle period whether you're playing on this Wii or that. All Brawl+ setups have Zelda textures, all Brawl+ setups have the same measure of control on the duration of the transform invincibility period.[/COLLAPSE]

But not complete control. SD cards, too, have variable load speeds, which are also dependent on whether you're running custom music or not (which often boils down to randomness when you have a mixed set of custom and default music). So, if you have custom content, the textures speed up the process and the music slows it down, and if not, vice versa. The point is, it's still quite variable. In any case, the modified mechanic doesn't assume any level of consistency (except in the case of grabs, which can't be shielded). The default mechanic gives your opponent an additional and randomized amount of time to reach you and punish you with anything they like. With the modified mechanic, they can only meaty you with a grab, and if they miss, you can punish easily, whereas you would not have time to with the default mechanic.

As far as the issue being with the transform being "unpunishable when used correctly," is there a move that isn't like that and not regarded as crap? Why should you be punished for using a move correctly?

Specifically, I agree with Frag in that the momentum loss required to get off a transform is a sufficient price to balance the unpunishability. With equalized lag (in the beginning and end) you have more opportunities to get the transform off, perhaps, but you'll often end up eating a hit which, depending on percentage and stage position, can lead to an entire stock.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

Ok well my friends and I have tried out 7.0 and are a little shocked/Disappointing. The game feels way to slow now and characters moves are choppy/slow. The stage boundary thing is cool and all but should only be for the big stages. Why there is hardly no roofing on smashvile leaves me pondered. The shorten sides is cool however when it comes down to it, The stage sizes should have been left alone. I mean hell a Jigglypuff hits a down B on you there is no way to live through it. I knows theres less hitstun but the fact remains. DI'ing doesn't even save you due to the low KO% and to make things worse that makes it way worse for the heavy type characters like DDD DK etc. Because they will get hit by that move all day long. In my opinion theres only a few good characters to play as and I mean that. I mean atleast in 6.0 characters could live and make sort of a comeback. Overall in my opinion 5.0&6.0 are probably way more balanced/fun than this current version is. This current version feels way to rushed and doesn't feel like it got the love like the others before it did.

 

[GHNeko]

...the game feels slower even though the boundaries were decreased?

what?

dude lol.

kill moves were buffed with the removal of the sakurai angle too.

the reason for the boundary decreases was because people lived too long and the games still dragged on.

and i honestly find it weird you complain about moves being choppy and slow and the game being slow when you complain about stage boundaries. That and there were barely any speed tweaks to moves. :|

 

[iLink]

Was something done to Yoshi's DJC? It doesn't seem to be working like it used to.

 

[Daakun]

Bionic, option 5 in the updater for "knock it off with the cosmetic changes" is giving me cosmetic changes again.
Also, knock it off with the cosmetic changes. Lucky I always backup my SD before running stuff like that on it, because you would have just trashed my common5. Again.

Edit: While I'm here, what all inside final destination did you change? I'd like to keep my custom model in there but I'm not sure if you've changed more than the collisions.

 

[JCaesar]

An intelligent and well-informed post about Zelda's transform by a suspiciously random user with a very small post count and a very early join date.

Hmmmm...

The only example you posted that didn't still rely on a fortuitous occurrence of having a discreet hitbox or grabbox active during the end of the load time is the Wario bite. All others required timing and, essentially, a measure of luck. Why should Wario get that sort of exception? It's a pretty powerful one at that, since bite is a good starter for a number of Wario's strings and punishment options. So the Z/S player is doubly boned against a Wario, because they're now hamstrung by a telegraphed startup animation and indiscreet invincibility period which the Wario can abuse to take away the only advantage they were given in the whole affair, a free escape, because he can just hang a grab out there where they can't do anything about it, and then he gets a free bite to do with the Zelda as he chooses.

Add to that the fact that with some players using their own textures in an effort to combat the load time problem, you get inconsistency across multiple setups in a tournament environment. While I'm also of the opinion that TOs should be disallowing custom textures to be used on tournament setups, this provides a standard of uniformity outside of the construct of the game itself. You can rely on the transform to have X amount of startup, Y amount of punishable cooldown, and a predictably consistent middle period whether you're playing on this Wii or that. All Brawl+ setups have Zelda textures, all Brawl+ setups have the same measure of control on the duration of the transform invincibility period.

Edit: I've isolated the tumble bug and removed it. It will be patched in the forthcoming minor revision, and rerelease of the correct pac versions and possibly the SSS code.

I was gonna respond to this but Wind Owl basically said it all.

Complaining that Wario can easily punish something that other characters can't is incredibly nitpicky and certainly no reason to remove it. And there's no reason that we can't use both Ryoko's fix and add the texture pacs to stabilize load times.

Being forced to only use it when someone is respawning or coming back from a big hit (and foregoing the opportunity to edgeguard) really discourages Transform's use. Ryoko's fix actually lets you use it strategically. And anyone who gets too close and gets punished for trying to punish it, well, it's their own fault.

 

[Bandit]

The only example you posted that didn't still rely on a fortuitous occurrence of having a discreet hitbox or grabbox active during the end of the load time is the Wario bite. All others required timing and, essentially, a measure of luck. Why should Wario get that sort of exception? It's a pretty powerful one at that, since bite is a good starter for a number of Wario's strings and punishment options. So the Z/S player is doubly boned against a Wario, because they're now hamstrung by a telegraphed startup animation and indiscreet invincibility period which the Wario can abuse to take away the only advantage they were given in the whole affair, a free escape, because he can just hang a grab out there where they can't do anything about it, and then he gets a free bite to do with the Zelda as he chooses..

First - I agree completely with Frag and Wind Owl.

Second - This argument doesn't talk about why this change had to be made. It talks about how Wario happens to have a move that can punish an "unpunishable" move.

Third - The point of the transformation change way back was to make it safer to transform because the move had a slow start-up that could be interrupted and a slow cool down that could be punished. Transforming mid-match was not easy to get away with without putting yourself in a ton of danger. It was still difficult to transform mid-match with the change, but you didn't die because you decided to do it.

FOURTH - THIS WAS NOT A GLITCH OR A BROKEN LOOP SO WHY WAS IT TOUCHED?

 

[Revven]

Was something done to Yoshi's DJC? It doesn't seem to be working like it used to.

DJC Float had to be fixed using a method that doesn't allow you to DJC after the first few frames of your DJ.

 

[shanus]

DJC Float had to be fixed using a method that doesn't allow you to DJC after the first few frames of your DJ.

This should not be the case with the new method. It should first be tested standalone without the frame limitation.

 

[red stone]

Hi i use the no homebrew loader. is the gct file different and if so where can i get the full txt file for it?

 

[Yeroc]

I've seen everyone's responses re: Zelda, and tempted though I am to write a response now, I just don't have time before work. I'll be back this evening however. The short answer to your last question though Bandit was I didn't like the way it was being handled and I'm taking steps to fix it.

 

[Bandit]

I'll now wait for the long response.

 

[CountKaiser]

Oh, btw, minor gripe, but still a problem.

The ping sound effect on the tip of Ness's bat is gone. Put it back, plz. T_T

 

[proteininja]

Oh, btw, minor gripe, but still a problem.

The ping sound effect on the tip of Ness's bat is gone. Put it back, plz. T_T

Seconded

10seconds

 

[Suic]

Castle Siege should be frozen!

Is there any reason why the lava stage isn't also valid? If castle siege could switch between those two (and do the switching fast enough that there isn't much chance of a walk off death) then I would be a pretty happy person...and the stage would be competitive at least as a CP.

An interesting idea would be to implement Dantarions level replacement code in and (while keeping the default as the competitively viable edited stage) allow the player to hold a button to load the original unedited stage in case they wanted to play it for fun.

Does anyone else think of this as an interesting idea? I guess I'll just implement it myself for the time being.

 

[JCaesar]

I've seen everyone's responses re: Zelda, and tempted though I am to write a response now, I just don't have time before work. I'll be back this evening however. The short answer to your last question though Bandit was I didn't like the way it was being handled and I'm taking steps to fix it.

I'll try to make it simple:

What we should be discussing is whether or not Zelda/Sheik should be able to safely transform mid-stock when she has breathing room, or only between stocks and when the opponent is recovering from far away, because that is the primary difference between the default Transform and Ryoko's fix. The stuff about Wario's Bite and PT's Switch is completely irrelevant and the loading times should be made static via texture pacs regardless of what is decided.

Also, contrary to apparently popular belief, Ryoko's fix does not make Transform an offensive setup. If you get punished for trying to punish it, it is entirely your own fault. The entire purpose is to limit the punishment window to before the actual transformation begins. So this should not factor into the decision either.

So, is too powerful to allow Sheik/Zelda to transform into Zelda/Sheik mid-stock? Should it be restricted to between stocks only? That is the only thing to discuss. If Ryoko's fix is settled on, we can also discuss how long the pre-transformation punishment window should be.

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

Does anyone else think of this as an interesting idea? I guess I'll just implement it myself for the time being.

This times ten. I've thought of this myself, but there is one roadblock; button presses don't work on wifi. Don't know how many people care, but...

 

[Rikana]

Is there a way to change my .pacs and gct back to 6.0? I forgot about a replay that I had on my Wii.

Do I use the old updater?

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

...the game feels slower even though the boundaries were decreased?

what?

dude lol.

kill moves were buffed with the removal of the sakurai angle too.

the reason for the boundary decreases was because people lived too long and the games still dragged on.

and i honestly find it weird you complain about moves being choppy and slow and the game being slow when you complain about stage boundaries. That and there were barely any speed tweaks to moves. :|

That's not what I meant by slower. What I mean is the actual frame rate of the gameplay (not moves) its self like captain falcon running sonic running etc. The killing is defenitly faster Ill admit that. I understand about the boundary thing. It just seems to me atleast the Frame rate of the actual game is slower than it was from 5.0 and 6.0. Keep in mind I'm not talking about characters movesets. I mean again their running speed.