Brawlplusery Official Codeset 5.0 RC1 Discussion

[Revven]

Hitlag was increased by 10% in the set we have in the WBR. We will not go any higher than 60% though simply because it feels too sluggish at 70% (which we tested a long time ago and nobody liked it and it inherently buffed Falco's lasers, as they caused more stun).

 

[Magus420]

Hitlag was increased by 10% in the set we have in the WBR. We will not go any higher than 60% though simply because it feels too sluggish at 70% (which we tested a long time ago and nobody liked it and it inherently buffed Falco's lasers, as they caused more stun).

That was before Falco's lasers were changed from 3->2 damage. I was experimenting with it the other week and I think 60% is still too low imo.

EDIT: 70% is actually very close to Melee hitlag, except there's slightly less hitlag on high damage hits and it also doesn't have the 1.5x multiplier for electric attacks. If it seemed sluggish I think it might have just felt that way after jumping up from the 50% being used before it, since I haven't heard anyone describe the amount of hitlag in that game as being too slow. I think 70% or at least 65% should be given another try for a bit after 60% sinks in for awhile.

 

[MaxThunder]

PK, could you please post the PAL txt code for colored shields?
'coz it's awesome and I can't find it around.

I suggest everybody to show always both the .gct and the .txt files, I think that would solve a lot of requests and doubts.

anyone paying attention to this? its a really good idea... would really solve the problems of all the people whose problem is that they cant add stuff they want to the codelist... i really need txt file for pal codes...

 

[Doval]

I'll try 60% hit lag and see how that goes.

By the way; not sure if this is the right thread for such a request...but it also feels a bit out of place to ask this in the Code Q&A thread. Anyway, I have a friend that insists he likes his Brawl vanilla, but the 4 other people in our circle detest vanilla's physics. As a compromise, I'd like to turn restore Samus's physics (jump heights, gravity, run speed) so she moves like in vanilla Brawl. Could anyone tell me which lines of code would have to be deleted for that?

 

[Deleted member]

maxthunder, PM me an email adress and I'll sent it.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'll try 60% hit lag and see how that goes.

By the way; not sure if this is the right thread for such a request...but it also feels a bit out of place to ask this in the Code Q&A thread. Anyway, I have a friend that insists he likes his Brawl vanilla, but the 4 other people in our circle detest vanilla's physics. As a compromise, I'd like to turn restore Samus's physics (jump heights, gravity, run speed) so she moves like in vanilla Brawl. Could anyone tell me which lines of code would have to be deleted for that?

You won't ever be playing true brawl+ samus, but... sure.

You don't actually delete anything. What you will end up doing is changing half of a line in the jump/grav values code. The third line of the jump/grav values code should being with 02. Then there will be 6 more digits and then it will have a 03 followed by another 6 digits. Change whatever the 6 digits following 03 currently are to 444440, so afterward you'll have a line reading 02###### 03444440. Leave the 02 halfline alone, since that's for another character (link? I think). 03 is samus's character ID, and the value "4" was set up to represent "1.0" on the physics code. The final 0 is just a placeholder value that doesn't do anything. This will set samus back to her vbrawl physics settings.

I think after playing for a while, your friend will want to try out the brawl+ settings again, since they were designed with the intent to optimize her playstyle (at least I would hope your friend would want to switch over to the actual official set). It's just a matter of adjusting to them.

 

[Roager]

I hope this isn't a bad post for this forum...

Anyway, a small concern about the physics in 4.1B:

I just got into B+, so I don't know version history, but I think we should change the "no grab ledges" code. For some characters (Falcon, Ness, and Lucas, in particular) I've gone for the ledge, only to either bounce off or move over it, right into a waiting Fsmash. To decrease the vulnerability, and still keep the possibility to avoid the ledge, if you so choose, I'd suggest modifying it to something more like "hold down to not grab ledge" or something to that effect.

Is this possible/probable/legitimate? What do you think?

 

[GHNeko]

You grab the ledge on the way down, not the way up. If you gave them the option to not grab it, they would never choose it because its better to grab it on the way up rather than the way down.

:V

And NASL isnt going anywhere son. <3

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

sweet spotting isn't that hard, just mess with it until you can grab the ledge, just aim low

edit: this ***** neko

 

[jokey665]

As it's been said, no snap ledges aren't that hard to get used to. And vBrawl already lets you hold down to not sweet spot if you so desire.

 

[Doval]

Regarding Hit Lag: I just collected some data with 50%, 60%, 65%, 70%, 75%, and 80% reduction values. The 50% to 60% jump only shifted the 1-4 hit lag range one frame up to 2-5. 65% was barely any different from 60%. 70% bumped the range up to 2-6. 75% was barely any different. 80% finally bumped the range up to 3-7, making it an almost perfect match for Melee's values.

On a visual level I don't think it's noticeable at all for most attacks. I think the difference is really seen for weak multi-hit attacks. Since these repeat, throwing an extra frame or two of hit lag shifts the ratio of hit lag-to-stun time per multi-hit cycle, and that's much easier to notice than an extra 2 frames on a Smash attack. However, that hit lag-to-stun ratio is important for Smash DI'ing multi-hit attacks.

I have to agree with Magus in that, while I don't see a big change, the testers probably did because of already being used to 50%. I too would like to see a gradual increase over time up to 80% or at the very least 70% to be considered. Like I said, 60% just adds 1 frame across the board. That's practically nothing, and still leaves the hit lag levels well below Melee's, which was not a slow game at all. For the time being I think I'll just play with a "3" (2 in practice) Powershield window and 80% hit lag. If the community agrees, sweet, if not, then I guess I'll just have to conform if I ever go to a Brawl+ tournament.

Regarding Falco's lasers: I got a consistent 10 frames of stun at all values I tested between 50% and 80%. Shifting the hit lag up does not improve Falco's laser in any way. In fact, the attack seems to have no Hit Lag at all - all attempts to Smash DI the laser have failed. In fact, not even turning the x1.5 electric hit lag multiplier at 80% caused those 10 frames of stun to change. So there shouldn't be a problem on this one.

@Leafgreen386: A million thanks. Not to be ungrateful but sometimes I wish some of these codes were more documented. As for my friend, he's terribly stubborn, he dislikes Brawl+ in general, but didn't seem to care about anything beyond the jump/gravity changes. It's not ideal, but changing Samus to move to vanilla Brawl will be a suitable compromise for us to play together (the rest of us can't stand vanilla Brawl.) I take it that I can repeat the same process for any other character he complains about, just look up the ID and fill in 44440? I had tried turning off the Jump/Grav codes altogether but for some stupid reason that was causing a crash as soon as a character started a dash and tried to transition into a run. Is there some sort of dependency between some codes besides obvious pairs? While we're on it, which code disables air dodge while stunned? Is it part of the Launch Power Modifier? I thought from the name that was just the new BKB/KBG values.

Regarding auto sweetspot ledges: There's no way that change is being reversed in my opinion. The autosweetspot makes recoveries far too safe. In fact, even with that off, the area from which you can snap on to the edge normally is already too big and makes on-stage edgeguarding practically impossible if the opponent latches on from max range. Wouldn't surprise me if that problem's already been brought up and a fix is in the works.

 

[JCaesar]

<3 Doval

We need more well-though-out and well-researched feedback like yours.

For myself, I am in favor of testing out a significant hitlag increase.

 

[Zean]

will you guys release a new version with the File Replacement code v3.1a ?

 

[Homsar, a Trendy Tote Bag]

Are there any plans to increase Mr. Game and Watch's weight in the future?

 

[Roager]

Well, I don't really understand why we want to take out auto ledge grab, but I'll leave it be. On the subject of hitlag, though, why was it dropped in B+? Was SDI getting too good, or what?

(or did JCaesar mean hitstun?)

 

[JCaesar]

Hitlag. Just read that block o text Doval wrote. Hitlag in B+ is much less than even Melee hitlag. It's original purpose was to speed up the game and make SDI more challenging, but I think we went a bit overboard.

 

[Roager]

Hitlag. Just read that block o text Doval wrote. Hitlag in B+ is much less than even Melee hitlag. It's original purpose was to speed up the game and make SDI more challenging, but I think we went a bit overboard.

I don't think taking hitlag out really helps much. Adding more hitlag (to B+, not vB) would probably make the game a bit better, since it makes it easier to get out of combos.

One of the things I liked about vBrawl was that it didn't require quick hands as much as a quick mind, I know lots of people hate vBrawl, but the point stands. In a match, you have to consider what move counters what other move, and as soon as you land it, you can't just muscle-memory into a combo, you have to read what they're gonna do, and react. I know there's more to Melee and B+ than muscle memory, but still.

My point is that making combos harder might not be a bad thing. As long as the game stays fast and interesting, there's more actual involvement when you constantly have to adapt, both offensively and defensively.

Maybe I'm misguided and terribly wrong. I'll admit it's possible. But it's how I see it, so there we go.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

hitlag I like in vbrawl but only the visual effect. like landing a knee or pikas dsmash. but I see it also has some technical aspect I don't really know of. I do know that less makes the game(or characters moves) faster right?

 

[shanus]

hitlag I like in vbrawl but only the visual effect. like landing a knee or pikas dsmash. but I see it also has some technical aspect I don't really know of. I do know that less makes the game(or characters moves) faster right?

hitlag = window to SDI during

 

[Wavedash Master]

hitlag = window to SDI during

Can't you plain old use Directional Influence in this window too? Please correct me in this.

 

[Doval]

hitlag I like in vbrawl but only the visual effect. like landing a knee or pikas dsmash. but I see it also has some technical aspect I don't really know of. I do know that less makes the game(or characters moves) faster right?

Hit Lag is the amount of time a character is frozen when hit. If the hit is coming from another character, both characters freeze. The technical aspect of it is that you DI during the Hit Lag. So the more hit lag there is, the more time you have to DI. Too much hit lag makes DI easy, too little makes DI too hard.

Less Hit Lag only makes the game faster in the sense that characters spend less time frozen when hits connect, but besides that the there is no other change in the game. Both characters spend the same amount of time frozen so it doesn't really affect any move timings, just the window of opportunity for DI'ing.

Technically there's one final consideration - for obvious reasons, projectiles only "freeze" their target upon contact, while the person who sent the projectile is entirely unaffected. Thus, higher hit lag gives projectile users marginally more time to act upon successful projectile hits. This is usually not a problem unless the character can spam the projectile very quickly or can chase very closely behind the projectile to attack during the freeze time. That's why Falco was brought up earlier in the discussion, but it seems his lasers have no freeze time, just pure stun, so it's not an issue.

EDIT: Ah, too slow to post as usual.

Can't you plain old use Directional Influence in this window too? Please correct me in this.

Yes. Whichever direction you were holding at the end of the window becomes your regular/automatic/whatever DI.

 

[leafgreen386]

huge detailed post

Very nice. I'm impressed. A well-researched and well-thought out post. We need more people like you posting on these threads.

That said, interesting find. I'm not sure if we'll end up matching melee's hitlag or go for something slightly less, but I think it's obvious that we need to raise hitlag at least some. The fact that falco's lasers don't have to be a concern with this is also nice.

@Leafgreen386: A million thanks. Not to be ungrateful but sometimes I wish some of these codes were more documented. As for my friend, he's terribly stubborn, he dislikes Brawl+ in general, but didn't seem to care about anything beyond the jump/gravity changes. It's not ideal, but changing Samus to move to vanilla Brawl will be a suitable compromise for us to play together (the rest of us can't stand vanilla Brawl.) I take it that I can repeat the same process for any other character he complains about, just look up the ID and fill in 44440? I had tried turning off the Jump/Grav codes altogether but for some stupid reason that was causing a crash as soon as a character started a dash and tried to transition into a run. Is there some sort of dependency between some codes besides obvious pairs? While we're on it, which code disables air dodge while stunned? Is it part of the Launch Power Modifier? I thought from the name that was just the new BKB/KBG values.

You can indeed switch any character back to their vbrawl physics by filling in 444440 after their character ID. Or well, at least their jump and fall speed physics. They will still have a 1.15x dash speed modifier applied to them, which is probably what was crashing your game before. The launch and grav codes are what control character physics in brawl+, and the jump/grav values code is where these two codes draw their data from to know what to change. Dash speed is built into one of these codes (I believe it's the launch code, but I don't remember for sure), which was set to 1.15x for the whole cast. If you wanted pure vbrawl character physics, you would need to take off all three codes, or you would of course run into crashes. I'm surprised jumping didn't also crash it, unless you just didn't get to test that. The codes that control attack mods in brawl+ are the hitbox property mod engine and hitbox property mod data.

Regarding auto sweetspot ledges: There's no way that change is being reversed in my opinion. The autosweetspot makes recoveries far too safe. In fact, even with that off, the area from which you can snap on to the edge normally is already too big and makes on-stage edgeguarding practically impossible if the opponent latches on from max range. Wouldn't surprise me if that problem's already been brought up and a fix is in the works.

It's not, actually. It's possible that will be addressed at some point in the future, but for now it's being left alone. There's typically been quite a bit of disagreement with the idea of shortening the ledge sweetspot length. Perhaps after we get a proper ledgeteching code, it could be considered again. In the mean time, what is likely to be fixed is the property where if you hit someone as you're recovering you can still auto-sweetspot, which is certainly something we'd like to fix.

will you guys release a new version with the File Replacement code v3.1a ?

That code is already in the latest nightly (or really, weekly) build. We provide the .txt for the 4.1 official set, so if you want, you can simply compile your own .gct with the latest file replacement code. The code has only been out briefly, though, meaning all of its nuances are not yet known. I know that when we were trying to add it to the nightly builds set that there was a problem in the way it interacted with certain codes, which took some time to figure out and fix, and there may still be more problems yet to be found. Since the official builds are meant for tournament use, we'll probably hold off on it.

Are there any plans to increase Mr. Game and Watch's weight in the future?

No.

I don't think taking hitlag out really helps much. Adding more hitlag (to B+, not vB) would probably make the game a bit better, since it makes it easier to get out of combos.

One of the things I liked about vBrawl was that it didn't require quick hands as much as a quick mind, I know lots of people hate vBrawl, but the point stands. In a match, you have to consider what move counters what other move, and as soon as you land it, you can't just muscle-memory into a combo, you have to read what they're gonna do, and react. I know there's more to Melee and B+ than muscle memory, but still.

My point is that making combos harder might not be a bad thing. As long as the game stays fast and interesting, there's more actual involvement when you constantly have to adapt, both offensively and defensively.

Maybe I'm misguided and terribly wrong. I'll admit it's possible. But it's how I see it, so there we go.

You are indeed misguided and you are also terribly wrong.

In vbrawl, the only true combos that existed were pretty much strict muscle memory. They usually involved using weak hits, which didn't tumble, so you never even had an opportunity to DI. Your only option was SDI, to try to get out of range of your opponent before they hit you again. The biggest problem vbrawl had was that you could act out of the tumble before even suffering half of your stun. Most "combos" in that game are easily escapable by simply airdodging, without any real regard for DI, thus most of the time when you see consecutive hits it's a result of baiting the foe for your second hit, rather than actually comboing them because you successfully read their DI. In both melee and brawl+, in order to successfully combo a foe, you have to read their DI, otherwise the foe will escape. Your problem seems to be more with hitstun actually doing its job rather than having to do with "muscle memory" combos.

Increasing hitlag does make it easier to escape combos, as it gives a bigger window for your opponent to react to being hit and DI it, but at least as far as regular DI is concerned, it won't actually increase the effectiveness of escaping them. Since raising hitlag also makes it easier to SDI moves and makes more SDIs possible on a single hit (since for every frame of hitlag, you're able to input a new SDI), it does raise the effectiveness of escaping a combo via SDI. This is most notable on multi-hit moves, enabling you to escape before the final hit connects.

 

[Cyan_Blau]

Yeah, I forgot xD

Hitlag should be high 8-10 and Hitstun should be low 4-2, which could change the game with more speed ^^!

But how about Melee Air Dodge? Or the hybrid one? . . .

. . . I used the new method with the game list for the Gecko, so I don't need double GTC, which allowes me to use the Air Dodge, but the Hybrid Air Dodge doesn't seem to be working for me -_-

I mean, that a really good wave dash need more and more training in Brawl and even more in Brawl+, because many times people hold the L button to much time which causes the character cancel the wave dash on an unlucky time. If you just try to really short tab the L/R button, you will do an excellent wave dash, else it wont be a real wave dash ^^!

Any time people say the wave dash is a ****ed glitch of SSBM and has to stay forbidden, but isn't it Sakurai who said that? - He said that the air dodge had to be changed because of the unfair usage of a wave dash, didn't he? . . .

So if you all say that Sakurai lost on his job to make a really good new Smash Bros., you also have to say you aren't that much better, if you don't use the possibilities you ever can have on this game!

For real, it's only a useful tactical technique because of bridging some holes in the ground or to slide fast to an enemy. And basing on this facts you also could say that the Melee Air Dodge maybe is more a legitimate technique than infinite air dodge!

Some reasons against that arguments?

(AX)

 

[leafgreen386]

Yeah, I forgot xD

Hitlag should be high 8-10 and Hitstun should be low 4-2, which could change the game with more speed ^^!

If I had any idea what you were talking about, I'd tell you that you were wrong. I still have no idea what you're talking about, but whatever it is... you're wrong.

But how about Melee Air Dodge? Or the hybrid one? . . .

. . . I used the new method with the game list for the Gecko, so I don't need double GTC, which allowes me to use the Air Dodge, but the Hybrid Air Dodge doesn't seem to be working for me -_-

I mean, that a really good wave dash need more and more training in Brawl and even more in Brawl+, because many times people hold the L button to much time which causes the character cancel the wave dash on an unlucky time. If you just try to really short tab the L/R button, you will do an excellent wave dash, else it wont be a real wave dash ^^!

Any time people say the wave dash is a ****ed glitch of SSBM and has to stay forbidden, but isn't it Sakurai who said that? - He said that the air dodge had to be changed because of the unfair usage of a wave dash, didn't he? . . .

So if you all say that Sakurai lost on his job to make a really good new Smash Bros., you also have to say you aren't that much better, if you don't use the possibilities you ever can have on this game!

For real, it's only a useful tactical technique because of bridging some holes in the ground or to slide fast to an enemy. And basing on this facts you also could say that the Melee Air Dodge maybe is more a legitimate technique than infinite air dodge!

Some reasons against that arguments?

(AX)

The reason we're not using the MAD code is because it homogenizes ground movement, ruins the air game, and was overall just had a negative impact on the game. It's not coming back.

 

[Alphatron]

Plus, from what I hear, traction in brawl is generally more slippery than melee. Wavedashing would actually be OP(as in overcentralizing) due to that.

Question though? Wouldn't increasing the hitlag just make Zelda's smash attacks suck oncs again? Her Usmash and fsmash suck in melee AND vBrawl. In vBrawl, both are quite easy for a good handful of characters to SDI out of. It was awful.

 

[leafgreen386]

Question though? Wouldn't increasing the hitlag just make Zelda's smash attacks suck oncs again? Her Usmash and fsmash suck in melee AND vBrawl. In vBrawl, both are quite easy for a good handful of characters to SDI out of. It was awful.

Not exactly. IIrc, most of the hits of zelda's smashes are actually nonSDIable in brawl (they have cinematic hitlag). The reason characters could escape was because in between the two swings of her arm they left hitstun. I know that the launcher hit has regular hitlag, although I'm not sure if the final hitbox of the first swing of her arm has regular hitlag or not.

Anyway, this is starting to digress from the purpose of this topic. This topic is designed for receiving feedback for balance changes in a formal format, and for official responses to said feedback.

 

[Cyan_Blau]

The reason we're not using the MAD code is because it homogenizes ground movement, ruins the air game, and was overall just had a negative impact on the game. It's not coming back.

Yeah, really?! . . . ok ok maybe, there is really this one point that you all are supporting that air moves and air combos. But there are still techniques on the ground! - So if not the Melee or Hybrid Air Dodge is good enough for the game, there are still possibilities which allows a people to play really good on ground movement.

Maybe the down dodge will be banned too xD
(Then there wont be any good reasons to use that codes . . . really!)

But sorry, if I nerve you. - Now I know that it's really difficult to use any air move, if the enemy slides around on the ground ^^"

Plus, from what I hear, traction in brawl is generally more slippery than melee. Wavedashing would actually be OP(as in overcentralizing) due to that.

Question though? Wouldn't increasing the hitlag just make Zelda's smash attacks suck oncs again? Her Usmash and fsmash suck in melee AND vBrawl. In vBrawl, both are quite easy for a good handful of characters to SDI out of. It was awful.

Yeah, maybe . . . I've to learn more about some specific characters moves xD

But hitlag is most perfect in B+ and also in the new version. Only Hitstun is one thing I privately ajust by my self (for that I use 10 frames > Bad guy -_-).


(AX)

 

[Phantom7]

Ahh... I feel so much more at ease when playing Ganon. His moves are actually useful now.

 

[Ryusuta]

Edit: Nevermind I found some of them, at least. Here's hoping they all work.

Also, none of the links on the OP seem to work.

 

[Cyan_Blau]

Ahh... I feel so much more at ease when playing Ganon. His moves are actually useful now.

Another good topic: How about the Competitive Ganondorf Code?

It would make the game with Ganondorf easier, like the fast A move ^^!

I think it should be an idea worth xD (But what's an idea by Amorphis_X xDD)


(AX)

 

[Learn2Luigi]

Ahh... I feel so much more at ease when playing Ganon. His moves are actually useful now.

Indeed.

Although...
I've noticed that Ganon's murder choke still instant free falls when you hit a ledge... are there any plans to change this? Many an accidental deaths trying to grab a foe on the edge, I've had.
Perhaps the move could continue beyond the edge, or not free fall, but just disable B moves like Sonic's ^B.

As a side note, with the Ganon Cannon ...er Ganon+ feeling like such a powerhouse, with all these quick, powerful short range moves...
When one is feeling like the evil king of power, knocking their enemies senseless on the ground or in the air...
One can sometimes accidentally uptilt.
This is the Ganon player's own personal murder choke...
You feel like you're choking on your own fail.
High as the damage and KB are on that move, getting stuck in it by one wayward twitch can get incredibly frustrating.

Any plans to change that either?

 

[Shell]

Indeed.

Although...
I've noticed that Ganon's murder choke still instant free falls when you hit a ledge... are there any plans to change this?

No, just learn the distance of the move.

As a side note, with the Ganon Cannon ...er Ganon+ feeling like such a powerhouse, with all these quick, powerful short range moves...

Er, other than jab, what Ganon are you talking about?

One can sometimes accidentally uptilt.

Any plans to change that either?

The only way I can think of making you better at controlling the game is by lowering the buffer. If you're suggesting that we modify the U-tilt, it's been suggested and played with before, but I wouldn't hold your breath on it changing drastically.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

In the next official set, are you guys planning on using the latest version of the DSDL (Dynamic SD Loader) code, which is v3.2a?

 

[Learn2Luigi]

I wouldn't hold your breath on it changing drastically.

Understood.
As for the murder choke, I still think the free fall is a little drastic for a missed move on the ground, but I guess I'm not exactly a pro player either.

As for the quick, powerful moves... I meant that he feels beefier over all. Solid and powerful, but not overly encumbered. As the king of power should.

Poor choice of wording, in retrospect.
Even so, the only move of his that has nearly as much starting lag as the utilt is his warlock punch, afaik.
The comparison still stands

 

[V-K]

Could it be that the hitstun got decreased?

 

[MaxThunder]

have anyone heard anything from paprika killer? he was gonna send me the txt for that pal codeset, but that was a week ago...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Understood.
As for the murder choke, I still think the free fall is a little drastic for a missed move on the ground, but I guess I'm not exactly a pro player either.

Just DI better. DIing up and left should allow you to grab the ledge, and if nothing else, quarter circle DI.


Granted as a buff of Ganon, it would be situationally useful to allow him to do that, but whatever.

 

[Revven]

Could it be that the hitstun got decreased?

No it didn't.

 

[Learn2Luigi]

Just DI better. DIing up and left should allow you to grab the ledge, and if nothing else, quarter circle DI.


Granted as a buff of Ganon, it would be situationally useful to allow him to do that, but whatever.

Heh, thanks for the tip, I'll try that out.

 

[MaxThunder]

is there some cool guy here that could give me the txt for the pal codeset?paprika killer is not answering or anything and he has used almost 2 weeks on sending an e-mail so i dont think i'll get it from him... but is there anyone else who can give it to me? or at least tell me how to get it... ...please?