Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010

[Darky-Sama]

You're welcome.

But take note...
I don't actually main ZSS. >_>
She's just my best character, I really use everybody. lol

Same here.

Falcon's more of my figurehead character.
ZSS is certainly my best, though I use everyone as well.

 

[Sovereign]

So it comes down to prediction and knowing what your opponent is going to do.

Why are you talking about that in a match-up discussion?

Because, if P-3's Falcon would do it then it's right, but by God if he doesn't do it it's wrong.

He's only given a two liner towards this match-up discussion.

"No.

Flub knee ***** ZSS."

It really doesn't, but if you got vids, show us.

 

[ph00tbag]

Because, if P-3's Falcon would do it then it's right, but by God if he doesn't do it it's wrong.

He's only given a two liner towards this match-up discussion.

"No.

Flub knee ***** ZSS."

It really doesn't, but if you got vids, show us.

Except it's no more right than any other edgeguard. Here's an anecdote that I hope will illustrate my point. Back around this time last year at C3, NC-Echo played some friendlies with Snakeee, and decimated him. According to NC-Echo, one out of ten matches went to Snakeee. NC-Echo plays Olimar, and gimped Snakeee several times by simply jumping out and fairing Snakeee out of the lag of his upB boost. Does this mean that Olimar beats ZSS's recovery? Hell no. If NC-Echo had done that to me, he probably would have been the one getting gimped (in fact, he's been gimped by me for being too aggressive offstage). NC-Echo won those matches solely by prediction. ZSS actually has a slew of options for recovering against Olimar, and all of those options would be considered in a match-up discussion. My anecdote, it turns out, is nothing more than just an anecdote.

So when P-3 says he was able to gimp ZSS with a flub knee, I applaud him, but that really has no place in a match-up discussion. As my story shows, just about any character can gimp any other character. I've gimped a ROB with ZSS, for instance. It doesn't mean ROB is an easy character for ZSS to gimp. The point is, a flub knee shouldn't be hitting most of the time, in fact, it should work only rarely, because ZSS has much more options against Falcon's edgeguarding than to jump into a flub knee.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yes, Zero Suit Samus has many options of recovery. However, when shes under the stage and Falcon's waiting at the ledge to edgehog her, her main form of recovery is her Plasma Wire. That is easy for Falcon to gimp with a knee.

Getting her below the stage is difficult for Falcon, hence why I said that it's so situational before, but it's certainly not impossible. Falcon's knee has a hitbox that stays out for so long that anything it hits for nearly an entire second is going to be hit by it.

If a Falcon knows what they're doing, they can fastfall off the stage with a knee as soon as Zero Suit Samus's plasma wire attaches to the edge, and shes going to smack into the knee. We aren't saying that it's going to result in a sweetspotted Knee of Justice, but it's just going to nudge her back down a bit.

Flubbed knees from that angle can be followed up by an up air. Which can be potentially fatal if the ZSS is around 80%, taking DI into consideration.

Situational; but not impossible.

 

[Player-3]

So it comes down to prediction and knowing what your opponent is going to do.

Why are you talking about that in a match-up discussion?

i dunno about you guys but i can jump at a zss and if they decide to down b i can press the jump button and punish

just me tho i thought that was common

the sound is fast enough to react to if im not spacing out of inebriated

Because, if P-3's Falcon would do it then it's right, but by God if he doesn't do it it's wrong.

He's only given a two liner towards this match-up discussion.

"No.

Flub knee ***** ZSS."

It really doesn't, but if you got vids, show us.

i have one vid versus a pretty bad zss on wifi

thats it

hahaha

Except it's no more right than any other edgeguard. Here's an anecdote that I hope will illustrate my point. Back around this time last year at C3, NC-Echo played some friendlies with Snakeee, and decimated him. According to NC-Echo, one out of ten matches went to Snakeee. NC-Echo plays Olimar, and gimped Snakeee several times by simply jumping out and fairing Snakeee out of the lag of his upB boost. Does this mean that Olimar beats ZSS's recovery? Hell no. If NC-Echo had done that to me, he probably would have been the one getting gimped (in fact, he's been gimped by me for being too aggressive offstage). NC-Echo won those matches solely by prediction. ZSS actually has a slew of options for recovering against Olimar, and all of those options would be considered in a match-up discussion. My anecdote, it turns out, is nothing more than just an anecdote.

So when P-3 says he was able to gimp ZSS with a flub knee, I applaud him, but that really has no place in a match-up discussion. As my story shows, just about any character can gimp any other character. I've gimped a ROB with ZSS, for instance. It doesn't mean ROB is an easy character for ZSS to gimp. The point is, a flub knee shouldn't be hitting most of the time, in fact, it should work only rarely, because ZSS has much more options against Falcon's edgeguarding than to jump into a flub knee.

i guess im doinitrong

my bad guize continue

 

[Zeallyx]

What a poor excuse for a matchup discussion. I've been in lurk mode for as long as this thread exists, and only one or two things have been said that were actually progressing this lowsy matchup discussion.

The falcon board shouldnt have one in the first place. It's history tells us that. Along with another very obvious reason I'm not even going to bother posting.

 

[Sovereign]

What a poor excuse for a matchup discussion. I've been in lurk mode for as long as this thread exists, and only one or two things have been said that were actually progressing this lowsy matchup discussion.

The falcon board shouldnt have one in the first place. It's history tells us that. Along with another very obvious reason I'm not even going to bother posting.

The great Knee has spoken.

 

[Darky-Sama]

No offense to you, Knee, but if you don't want to help the thread, then don't. No one said you had to, nor should you feel obligated to post in it if you feel that way. The Falcon Boards deserve a match-up thread, just like all the other boards; even if he only has a small chance at winning just about ANY match-up.

Sorry it doesn't meet you expectations, but at least we're actually trying to make some improvement here.

 

[:mad:]

No offense to you, Knee, but if you don't want to help the thread, then don't. No one said you had to, nor should you feel obligated to post in it if you feel that way. The Falcon Boards deserve a match-up thread, just like all the other boards; even if he only has a small chance at winning just about ANY match-up.

Sorry it doesn't meet you expectations, but at least we're actually trying to make some improvement here.

Darky got dis'. If you don't approve of what these people are trying to do, then don't bother posting.

I'm behind this project, message me if you need any help.

 

[†Slader7†]

I think this is as far as the ideas will go for the ZSS vs Falcon match up.
Summary Time! :D

Final Majority-Agreed Verdict: 35-65

We need to compile the info we have gathered and make a summary, how to win description, and what to avoid list into the OP

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah.
35:65 seems reasonable.

Anyone else have any objections with the ratio?

 

[Player-3]

60-40
But 6535 is fine

 

[Darky-Sama]

Oh, that reminds me.

Either now or after the match-up analysis, we should have a discussion on counterpick stages. At least one or two that Falcon could have more advantages on than ZSS. I might save that for when we make the "Individual Character Export Thread" started for Zero Suit though. It would be nice to have one or two decent counterpicks that could alter the ratio a bit higher for Falcon.

 

[Player-3]

Sv i like agaisnt zss....
Explain later on comp

 

[lordhelmet]

I'd say 30-70...

Not as tough as Oli, and easier than DK. Then again, I've only played like 1 ZSS and I think that was Darky.

 

[†Slader7†]

30-70 is a bit too extreme =/
40-60 good but P-3's ZSS rapeage bumped it up to 35-65

I think ZSS is a bit overrated (I main her as well) but she is not the one who you want to underestimate as she will **** you (HARD)

As for stages, FD=dead Falcon, Falcon needs platforms for aerials, and to avoid the suit pieces but platforms also provide ZSS the aerial advantage. For the stages, both ZSS and Falcon are kind of the same.

 

[Sovereign]

Falcon's chances are greater on Battlefield, Lylat, and Rainbow Cruise(nothing to tether, xcept the ship).

40:60 is my ratio in general.

 

[Darky-Sama]

30-70 is a bit too extreme =/
40-60 good but P-3's ZSS rapeage bumped it up to 35-65

I think ZSS is a bit overrated (I main her as well) but she is not the one who you want to underestimate as she will **** you (HARD)

As for stages, FD=dead Falcon, Falcon needs platforms for aerials, and to avoid the suit pieces but platforms also provide ZSS the aerial advantage. For the stages, both ZSS and Falcon are kind of the same.

I can see why he'd say it though. If a Falcon lacks knowledge on the match-up, it's obviously going to be bad news for them if they're put up against someone who knows how to manage in it. When I played Lord with ZSS, I pretty much had the advantage. Not only because I was using ZSS; but I also knew what to look out for the entire match and punished accordingly.

But hey, that's why we're here. So people won't have that problem.

30:70 is stretching it a bit too far though.

Maybe something like:
35:65 - Final Destination.
40:60- Reasonable counterpick. (Ex. Delfino Plaza)

 

[Player-3]

Just ban fd all the time. Its falcons worst stage

 

[Deleted member]

I was just playing this matchup with burntsocks, who has a solid falcon. If falcon can get off a side b it puts ZS in a really bad position, but if you miss we can punish you however we feel so it is risky. Falcon is fast, you should be able to PS and punish our gun if we're using it carelessly. Side b is in a similar boat, too slow to be of much use.

I actually don't feel that this is a very bad matchup for falcon at all. Maybe 40-60 to 35-65, definitely no more than that. A good falcon can easily win, especially if the ZS doesn't know the matchup.

YEA BABY!
Once nefarious learned the matchup he ***** me solidly though
ZSS has a tough time with falcons pressure game, however, her suit pieces **** him, he gets outranged in most cases, and ZSS is SOOOO HARD TO KILL!!!

I vote for 40:60 though, falcon can punish ZSS hella hard, and can approach her relatively easily

 

[lordhelmet]

I'd say 35-65 then!

=P

I really really don't think it's 40-60... that's like fighting a DK er something

 

[Sovereign]

I'd say 35-65 then!

=P

I really really don't think it's 40-60... that's like fighting a DK er something

DK has super armor. ZSS doesn't. 40:60 is my stop.

 

[Zeallyx]

No offense to you, Knee, but if you don't want to help the thread, then don't. No one said you had to, nor should you feel obligated to post in it if you feel that way. The Falcon Boards deserve a match-up thread, just like all the other boards; even if he only has a small chance at winning just about ANY match-up.

Sorry it doesn't meet you expectations, but at least we're actually trying to make some improvement here.

I just did help the thread. Telling you guys to step it up or quit.
And I can post my opnion, as we are still, on a public message board.

And I 'at least try' more than anyone here.

Again, just do it right, or quit.

 

[ph00tbag]

Situational; but not impossible.

Not impossible, I'll grant, but very rare.

As to stages, P-3 hit the nail on the head. Ban FD. It's ZSS's best stage against characters with no projectile.

Overall, I'd put the match-up in the range of 40:60 or 35:65, depending on the stage, and how much Falcon shields.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I just did help the thread. Telling you guys to step it up or quit.
And I can post my opnion, as we are still, on a public message board.

And I 'at least try' more than anyone here.

Again, just do it right, or quit.

We're just getting started with it. No match-up guide was made in a single day, and it hasn't even been a full week yet; Actually, I think we're just now getting on day four. When the character discussion is finished, then the guide will be updated. There's no need to edit the OP when we're still debating.


...And that's fine, Knee. We all know you've done your part around here to help the boards. But saying that this is a lousy excuse of a match-up thread and that the Falcon Board doesn't need one? That's pushing it. Some people might actually want to come visit the boards and find out how to manage with Falcon in certain match-ups.


If you think something's been left unsaid, then feel free to say it.
We're just getting started, bless us with your knowledge.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Battlefield you will get *****. Lylat you will get *****. RC you will get *****. Do not try these stages.

ZSS' only bad stages per se are Jungle Japes and in some very limited cases, Final Destination. Some ZSS players also dislike Yoshi's Island although personally I don't mind it. SV is probably your best bet, I guess, even though it isn't a bad stage for her either.

 

[†Slader7†]

The way I see it, the stages Falcon benefits from benefits ZSS even more. Both these characters have almost the same moves: uair, Falcons nair/ZSS fair, FK/ZSS dair, ftilt, dtilt

Platforms are a double-edged sword, both of them benefit from it. It just depends on how these characters utilize the stage that makes the difference.

From personal experience, platforms **** Falcon.
Just some personal thoughts:
FD,Lylat 40-60
BF, SV, YI(brawl) 35-65
RC 40-60

PTAD- 65-35 =P

 

[Koorikou]

i think frigate may be another good stage for falcon. it may have platforms and such that make it a double edged-sword but the first stage of frigate has only one ledge to tether and since its generally small it can help falcon distance to close shorter, although that comes with the risk of easier d-smashes and grabs.

 

[Sovereign]

Battlefield you will get *****. Lylat you will get *****. RC you will get *****. Do not try these stages.

ZSS' only bad stages per se are Jungle Japes and in some very limited cases, Final Destination. Some ZSS players also dislike Yoshi's Island although personally I don't mind it. SV is probably your best bet, I guess, even though it isn't a bad stage for her either.

Fight me and prove it. The platforms protect against falling armor, limiting her throwing to down or forward. Falcon's combo ability is increased due to small mobility on the platforms. Tech or no tech, it's relatively easy to pressure her when she's been knocked onto a higher platform. BF and Lylat have some small horizontal blast zones, and we all know a well placed Dsmash will end her, accordingly.

How on earth does she **** on Rainbow Cruise of all stages in Super Smash Brothers Brawl? Where can she recover? I understand she'll try the UpB spike, and opportunities may arise, but a Falcon should have common sense to know that's what you'll be going for. Gentlemen should go by the "Ladies first." rule and stay grounded, keeping your self under her, where your advantage is strongest. We understand Dsmash can hit us while coming up, but it's to be expected, something Falcon beat by Uair. Falcon's got the advantage on platformed stages, and Frigate is another excellent counterpick against her.

SV is bad, because I remember doing dittos with Darky and I attempted to close the round by edgeguard, and he UpB'd spiking me to my death, while he was still under the stage. SV is flat, and one platform is all you get, albeit it moving. ZSS can chuck pieces of her armor wherever she pleases on this stage, as the moving platform can cause delay to falling pieces from above, since they bounce, further increasing how dangerous her item game is.

I stand by my counter picks:
Battlefield 50:50 at best.
Lylat Cruise 45:55
Rainbow Cruise 55:45
Frigate Orpheon 50:50

 

[Deleted member]

RC is one of zamus' best stages. I know on paper it seems wierd, but ask any good zamus. Its not because of her gimmicks, she is just inherantly very good there for many reasons.

BF is the best neutral imo because even tho Zamus does good there, you absolutely cannot go FD. SV is ok, the platform gives much needed camping area :D

I dont like lylat really, ZSS is too good there.

Id take her to frigate, delphino, or really battlefield.
The problem is ZSS ***** falcon on so many stages, i would imagine that winning the set if you lose 1st game is really hard for falcon.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I stand by my counter picks:
Battlefield 50:50 at best.
Lylat Cruise 45:55
Rainbow Cruise 55:45
Frigate Orpheon 50:50

The others seem fine, but... Rainbow Cruise? No.

Rainbow Cruise 40:60 ZSS's Favor.

It doesn't seem logical since there are few recovery ledges for Zero Suit's tether recover to work, but you have to take into consideration how well ZSS can take control in the air. Players can't stay still and bait out attacks from her on this stage, they have to keep moving and she can easily punish them as they're doing so. That eliminates ZSS's largest problem. Baiting.

Zero Suit Samus has extremely high jumps to make up for her lack of a decent recovery on this stage, and the most horrible part of it all, is the fact that her tether recovery WON'T have anything interfering that it will sweet spot on. That means she can use her plasma wire as a mobile offensive measure. Yeah, you might not need to worry about it too much until your percent is high, because a good Zero Suit wouldn't want to get you down below her, especially not Captain Falcon. If you're above her, that's exactly where she wants you. One thing to watch out for, is when you're on a platform, she can reach the plasma wire through them. Even if they're solid structures.

The most deadly part of this stage is the pendulum platform. While it's swaying back and forth, she can simply use her up tilt (silly as that sound, it has a lot of range) and it will smack you up into the solid platforms above, causing a stage spike. This applies for just about any character, even Falcon can do it with his up throw. The only problem is ZSS has a really, really easy time with forcing her opponents around where she wants them. Getting close to her without getting Down tilted / Up tilted / Up smashed is far more of a struggle than you may think.


Another note: Characters move with the stage if they're down smashed. They don't stay in one place. However, when the stage begins restarting it's cycle and both players are forced to go down to to lower level of the stage and back on the ship; ZSS can use a down smash to keep you up above the platforms. If that doesn't kill you, it still gives her enough time to get down below you and punish as you're scurrying down to the ship.

I usually take people to Rainbow Cruise with Falcon too, since it's such a good stage for him. But against a Zero Suit? I would much rather take her somewhere else. Falcon can't really fend off characters that he can't approach - - and that have a much better air game than his own.

 

[Zeallyx]

We're just getting started with it. No match-up guide was made in a single day, and it hasn't even been a full week yet; Actually, I think we're just now getting on day four. When the character discussion is finished, then the guide will be updated. There's no need to edit the OP when we're still debating.


...And that's fine, Knee. We all know you've done your part around here to help the boards. But saying that this is a lousy excuse of a match-up thread and that the Falcon Board doesn't need one? That's pushing it. Some people might actually want to come visit the boards and find out how to manage with Falcon in certain match-ups.


If you think something's been left unsaid, then feel free to say it.
We're just getting started, bless us with your knowledge.

The thing is, the falcon board has been discussing matchups for over 8 months now, and maybe one matchup is agreed on. (like falcon vs MK = the falcon should counterpick).

Also, I'll post my two cents elsewhere.

But I want you to know, I do want THIS thread to be the active matchup discussion. No matter how much I dissagree with it.

 

[UzakiuzuG]

My three cents are we should have been down with match ups a long time ago. >> I mean we can update them. Are you starting from the beginning again?

 

[teluoborg]

If we were starting from the beginning again we would debate on the MK/Snake matchups. Which we don't.


And for the stage counterpick I hate taking a ZSS to BF, cause once the suit pieces are gone she can just camp under a platform, making approach even more difficult.

 

[lordhelmet]

DK has super armor. ZSS doesn't. 40:60 is my stop.

...?

Since when does SA dictate a matchup? So what - he has super armor on B and ^B, that doesn't mean he is harder than ZSS.

 

[Darky-Sama]

My three cents are we should have been down with match ups a long time ago. >> I mean we can update them. Are you starting from the beginning again?

Every match-up thread has died so far. Only two match-ups were finalized before. Meta Knight and Pikachu. Hopefully we can come to some conclusion with the other characters this time.

I might take what was said from the MK/Pikachu Discussions if they seem correct and up to date and fill in the blanks on this thread to save time.

 

[Sovereign]

...?

Since when does SA dictate a matchup? So what - he has super armor on B and ^B, that doesn't mean he is harder than ZSS.

That makes a huge difference in a matchup, good sir. Especially when the priority, power, and damage of those moves make them incredibly spammable.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Comparing one character to another is just stupid.
Different attacks, different priority, different metagame.

Does. Not. Work.

 

[lordhelmet]

Comparing one character to another is just stupid.
Different attacks, different priority, different metagame.

Does. Not. Work.

I was comparing how hard one character is to fight compared to the other...

But we should get back on topic. Darky, I'd like to verse your ZSS to get a better opinion on the matchup

 

[Darky-Sama]

I was comparing how hard one character is to fight compared to the other...

But we should get back on topic. Darky, I'd like to verse your ZSS to get a better opinion on the matchup

I know, I was just throwing out there. It seemed that was turning into the case.

Also; sure. I don't mind playing.