Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010

[Player-3]

k

yeah
ban fd
no questions

sv is a good cp :

uair and bair kill early, uair kills are way more common because of the small side blast zones

the floating platform aids your recovery more than hers, allows you to camp until she wastes away her armor pieces
just dont get side b'd or baird and youll live for a good while compared to zamus

utilt ***** if shes above you on a platform

 

[lordhelmet]

ZSS v Falcon
Darky-Sama v Lordhelmet

Darky and I did a lot of test matches and this is what I came up with:

PS: We are pretty even in CF dittoes, but Darky is better overall at Brawl than I am

Overall Summary IMO:

65-35

ZSS is overall superior to Falcon in just about every way. I found that Falcon's strategy of psuedo-ing opponents in the air does NOT work against ZSS, she can vB out of anything you do. I also found that gimping ZSS was near impossible for me, ZSS has too many options and air maneuverability. ZSS beats your ground game with projectiles, better priority, and a superior jab.

However, ZSS isn't too good at killing and she is (fairly) easy to KO. CF's "combos" aren't completely useless and are still viable.

Random Dos and Do Nots

- Try to get close, use f-tilt, d-tilt, u-tilt, and jabs for spacing.
- Use airial approaches, n-air seems to work decent.

- Don't do a running approach, you will get down smashed.
- Don't try to do crazy gimps; you will die.
- Don't use FK or RB very often, only use it when you know it will work.

Stage Summary IMO:

Final Destination: I didn't find this stage terrible for CF, but I would recommend striking this stage first. 70-30
Battlefield Not a very good stage, don't know how to explain it though... 70-30
Smashville: Not bad, pretty even IMO. 65-35
Yoshi's Island: I don't like this stage, but it comes down to personal preference. 65-35
Pokemon Stadium: Falcon's best neutral for the match-up, I would try to get this stage first round. 60-40

Battleship Halberd: Not a bad stage, a good CP if you are familiar with this stage. 60-40
Brinstar: Uhh, kinda awkward for CF, you can't autocancel and ZSS seems to gain off of the uneven-ness. 70-30
Castle Siege: The stage I did best on, I really like this stage for this matchup. 55-45
Delfino Plaza: Another good one, similiar to Halberd. CP if you are really good here. 60-40
Frigate Orpheon: Kinda a "meh" stage. 65-35
Jungle Japes: Not a good idea, not the worst CP you can pick... but I wouldn't reccommend it. 70-30
Lylat Cruise: Another "meh" stage, nothing too much here. 65-35
Norfair: I did terrible on this stage, I love Norfair but ZSS just has way more options on this stage than you do. 70-30
Pictochat: Not a bad stage for CF. 65-35
Rainbow Cruise: NO! For God's sake, do not CP RC, you will get ***** HARD. Do yourself a favor and ban this stage from your set. 75-25

I will edit this, so don't think I'm not going to fix and change and add shtuff

 

[Sovereign]

I'd have to play Dark for myself... I can't accept that if he's better than you. It's when players run even that it matters... to me at least.

And looking at counter picks: You're telling me he has no advantages on her, on any stage? Just go ahead and pick a different character. Forget struggling to win if you don't have to.

 

[lordhelmet]

I'd have to play Dark for myself... I can't accept that if he's better than you. It's when players run even that it matters... to me at least.

And looking at counter picks: You're telling me he has no advantages on her, on any stage? Just go ahead and pick a different character. Forget struggling to win if you don't have to.

No, I don't think so.

That doesn't mean you can't win. I beat Darky on Castle Siege a few times, hence why I said it was his best stage for this match-up.

 

[Sovereign]

No, I don't think so.

That doesn't mean you can't win. I beat Darky on Castle Siege a few times, hence why I said it was his best stage for this match-up.

Yeah, but... I want a stage where I feel at home, and nothing she does will throw me for a loop.

 

[lordhelmet]

Yeah, but... I want a stage where I feel at home, and nothing she does will throw me for a loop.

I think that Castle Siege is your best bet... try it sometime. Oh yeah, and ban RC if when you fight a ZSS

 

[Darky-Sama]

Alright; another update.

Me and LordHelmet decided to do some more testing for this match-up. Captain Falcon vs Zero Suit Samus on valid counter pick stages. Every stage, Zero Suit held a large advantage, except one. Which I'm going to post and explain why.


Castle Siege:
Ratio: 45:55, Zero Suit Samus (IMO)

This stage was a pretty unique one. Captain Falcon seemed to have a lot of stage properties at his disposal here that made things a tad bit difficult for my Zero Suit. The largest was during the second portion of the stage.

Making use of the giant statues that stand in the center of the stage. Captain Falcon can use these to his advantage far more than a Zero Suit can. They increase his hit box range and even though they make his attacks stay out longer, this actually works a bit more in his favor since majority of his attacks aren't entirely punishable. As for Zero Suit Samus, her attacks are more punishable and they will stay out much longer if she was to hit one of the statues.

Zero Suit has a bit of difficulty KOing Captain Falcon on this part of the stage, where he has a much easier time smacking her around. This is a prime example of how Captain Falcon should try and bait out certain moves from ZSS to punish her. If any of her multi-hit attacks (ex. Utilt, Side+B, Upsmash) come in contact with a statue, it slows down her animation and leaves her open for attacks such as down smash, forward smash, or even a Knee of Justice (considering the increased hitbox from the statue will most likely cause it to sweet spot her).

The most difficult part of this stage for Falcon is the third portion. Since it's generally flat (aside from the constant tilting), it work highly in Zero Suit's favor. She can Side+B towards the sides of the stage that are tilted downward and it'll have a hitbox that hits on both the ground and generally high in the air. Plus, the lack of platforms make Falcon's choice of approach fairly limited, and she can punish accordingly. Aerial approaches can be stopped with her uair or by shielding and punishing, as can his grounded attacks. If Falcon tries to bait out attacks from her on this part of the stage, she can easily space and camp with aerial neutral+b or side+b to shield pressure him (if she doesn't want to approach naturally, that is).

Overall, since it is still Zero Suit Samus, she can put this stage to use just as much as Captain Falcon over all. She just can't restrict him as much as she can on other stages. So my conclusion is: 45:55, ZSS.

Feel free to give any feedback or objections if you disagree with that.


Other Legal Counterpick Ratios (again IMO):

* Battlefield: 35:65
* Final Destination: 30:70
* Pokemon Stadium (Melee) 35:65
* Smashville: 35:65
* Yoshi's Island: 35:65
* Battleship Halberd: 35:65
* Brinstar: 35:65
* Delfino Plaza: 40:60
* Frigate Orpheon: 35:65
* Jungle Japes: 35:65
* Lylat Cruise: 35:65
* Pictochat: 30:70
* Rainbow Cruise: 30:70

 

[Player-3]

how the hell is sv 65-35

u *****s doinitrong

 

[Darky-Sama]

how the hell is sv 65-35

u *****s doinitrong

Smashville can provide just as much of an advantage for Zero Suit Samus as it can Falcon. That's the main problem. It really all depends on how comfortable both players are on the stage. If you play a ZSS that knows how to fair well on that stage, she's going to have the advantage.

 

[Player-3]

i need to play you on it then because im srsly thinkin u guys doinitrong.

but of course i lack a wii

sigh

 

[Darky-Sama]

i need to play you on it then because im srsly thinkin u guys doinitrong.

but of course i lack a wii

sigh

Highly possible, but those are the results we had. You're probably more skilled on Smashville than me or LordHelmet then, so maybe it'll be a bit easier to come to a general conclusion.

Any idea when the next time you'll have a wii is?
You've been on and off on random weekends lately. lol

 

[Player-3]

ive been busy lately

really busy

this weekend is a no, next weekend too so yeah its not gonna be for a while

except MAYBE on a sunday... but that would be it

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with player 3.
FD is waaaay worse.

Also, judging a matchup by not high level players (no offense but im pretty sure neither of you are high level tournament players xD) playing wifi is perhaps the worst way to do it xD

 

[Darky-Sama]

Well, changing that particular ratio isn't going to harm the guide. It's not a bad stage for Falcon, but it's not going to do him but so well against ZSS.

I'm thinking (if you're going by AIB rules)...

Strikes: Final Destination and Battlefield.
Ban Stage: Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I agree with player 3.
FD is waaaay worse.

Also, judging a matchup by not high level players (no offense but im pretty sure neither of you are high level tournament players xD) playing wifi is perhaps the worst way to do it xD

Yes, Wi-FI does mess things up. But this isn't a conclusion or anything, just putting it out there for people to give feedback on (since it seems to be avoided otherwise). Exactly why none of the Falcon Match-Up guides made it anywhere.

No one was really willing or (offline) knowledgeable to aid them. rofl.

 

[Player-3]

NO
NO
NO
NO
BAN
FD
ALWAYS
AGAISNT EVERY CHARACTER

EVERY
INCLUDING GANON
EVERY TIME
DONT LET THE *****ES PICK YOU THERE ITS A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE STAGE
caps

 

[Darky-Sama]

NO
NO
NO
NO
BAN
FD
ALWAYS
AGAISNT EVERY CHARACTER

EVERY
INCLUDING GANON
EVERY TIME
DONT LET THE *****ES PICK YOU THERE ITS A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE STAGE
caps

It's a neutral; on AIB, you could just strike that ****.
It's not nearly as bad as Rainbow Cruise though. Not in this match-up.

 

[lordhelmet]

NO
NO
NO
NO
BAN
FD
ALWAYS
AGAISNT EVERY CHARACTER

EVERY
INCLUDING GANON
EVERY TIME
DONT LET THE *****ES PICK YOU THERE ITS A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE STAGE
caps

RC is worse, trust me. You can at least strike FD from the first match.

 

[Player-3]

no.
no no no no no no
ban fd
BAN
IT
fuuuu
im telling you ban it
i will **** any char on rc with falcon (k maybe not ****)
ANY
including mk
ive done it
just learn the stage

**** i love rc why would i ban it

 

[Darky-Sama]

no.
no no no no no no
ban fd
BAN
IT
fuuuu
im telling you ban it
i will **** any char on rc with falcon (k maybe not ****)
ANY
including mk
ive done it
just learn the stage

**** i love rc why would i ban it

I love it too, that's why I usually counter pick it when I lose with Falcon. However, we're basing this on the assumption that the ZSS knows the stage just as well as the Falcon does. It's not a simple stage for him in that sense.

 

[Red-Blue]

Rainbow Cruise is a decent to amazing stage for Falcon. Maneuverability. Final Destination just isn't good for the good 'ol Cap'n.

 

[lordhelmet]

Rainbow Cruise is a decent to amazing stage for Falcon. Maneuverability. Final Destination just isn't good for the good 'ol Cap'n.

Maybe I just suck at RC and Darky is amazing at it, but I got destroyed on RC. ZSS has amazing air manueverability and her up-b ***** as an offensive attack on this stage. I got gimped way more than he did, don't think this is a good stage against ZSS!

 

[Player-3]

never said it was a good stage agaisnt zss

said it was nowhere near as bad a stage as FD

also, falcon is S tier in air maneuverability
<_____<

 

[lordhelmet]

never said it was a good stage agaisnt zss

said it was nowhere near as bad a stage as FD

also, falcon is S tier in air maneuverability
<_____<

Ok, ok.

It really boils down to player preference, but I'm just saying RC is worse than FD.

On FD it's really not that bad. You will have to approach her and she has a few projectiles, but still it's not like you're fighting a Falco. Plus you run faster than her.

=/ =P

 

[Player-3]

nooooooooo

zss will zone the **** out of you on fd, and you have very little ways to get around it, which are all predictable

 

[Red-Blue]

Rainbow Cruise is atleast better than FD against most characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*pst* Player-3. Maybe you should calm down a little. lol

And can you test the match-up on Pirate Ship?

 

[lordhelmet]

*pst* Player-3. Maybe you should calm down a little. lol

And can you test the match-up on Pirate Ship?

o.o

Didn't think about Pirate Ship...

Since me and Dark are AiB-ers we were mainly doing AiB legal stages, but we can try to test that stage sometime.

 

[Player-3]

no u stfu nintendo freak im legit i have the right to freak out over stupid **** like stages **** im freakin out man im rfreakin out fuuckckkckckckckckk my **** hurts im so good at this game my god im so good im always right i know what stages to pick oh yeah that feels good wowoowowowowowwooahaofnelafnkdlsafnkldanfklda fbklda
fbkldfbda
bfkdl
abfdlk
anbflghopiewatklnd
s

FD sucks ban it strike it **** on it

unless you plan to CP with diddy

 

[teluoborg]

Oh wow...


I must be doing it wrong cause I do better against ZSS on FD than on BF.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Oh wow...


I must be doing it wrong cause I do better against ZSS on FD than on BF.

Actually, that's not too odd. Zero Suit Samus CAN wreck on both stages, but even though the platforms on Battlefield serve useful for Falcon, it just makes her air game even more dangerous. She benefits from it far more than Falcon does.

Final Destination; Falcon isn't nearly as decent as he can be on other stages, but it does put most of her air game out of the way (well, less than it would at Battlefield, rather). The only problem is approaching ZSS on Final Destination.

Her jab eliminates majority of Falcon's moveset unless it's spaced properly. Down smash and tilts stop most of Falcon's approaches. If he goes into the air for an aerial approach, she can easily punish him for it. Be it from a uair, or a shield canceled tilt.

She excels against Falcon on just about every stage. The only thing she lacks is decent killing potential, which Falcon is pretty fluent in. Falcon is a heavy weight that she'll have a difficult time killing, and ZSS is a lightweight that Falcon can smack around easily (you've just got to hit her. sldfjsd).

 

[PJGLZ]

Perhaps Norfair could work as a cp? She could have problems killing you if you stay in the middle.

 

[Player-3]

i dislike norfair heavily with any character

it shouldnt be a legal stage, imo

 

[lordhelmet]

Perhaps Norfair could work as a cp? She could have problems killing you if you stay in the middle.

Norfair sucks against ZSS. Read my post on page 6...

 

[Darky-Sama]

Norfair isn't good for Falcon either.

ZSS has a lot of mobility there, and even though she doesn't have decent kill potential, characters are forced into the air a lot for her to punish and rack up damage. Going inside of the protection capsule when the lava wall is coming from the back is stupid as well.

DO NOT GO INSIDE OF IT.
She can either downsmash you about 7 times from the inside or top of it, or she can even side+b spam from the sides of the capsule while you're locked inside. Just hold up a shield when the lava comes. Don't be stupid and go for the capsule. You could always go towards it to try and bait her near it, but as for going inside of it while the lava's coming? No.

I don't think 100%+ damage is worth avoiding a lava wall that you can simply SHIELD.

 

[Snakeee]

Except it's no more right than any other edgeguard. Here's an anecdote that I hope will illustrate my point. Back around this time last year at C3, NC-Echo played some friendlies with Snakeee, and decimated him. According to NC-Echo, one out of ten matches went to Snakeee. NC-Echo plays Olimar, and gimped Snakeee several times by simply jumping out and fairing Snakeee out of the lag of his upB boost. Does this mean that Olimar beats ZSS's recovery? Hell no. If NC-Echo had done that to me, he probably would have been the one getting gimped (in fact, he's been gimped by me for being too aggressive offstage). NC-Echo won those matches solely by prediction. ZSS actually has a slew of options for recovering against Olimar, and all of those options would be considered in a match-up discussion. My anecdote, it turns out, is nothing more than just an anecdote.

So when P-3 says he was able to gimp ZSS with a flub knee, I applaud him, but that really has no place in a match-up discussion. As my story shows, just about any character can gimp any other character. I've gimped a ROB with ZSS, for instance. It doesn't mean ROB is an easy character for ZSS to gimp. The point is, a flub knee shouldn't be hitting most of the time, in fact, it should work only rarely, because ZSS has much more options against Falcon's edgeguarding than to jump into a flub knee.

Whatttt I don't remember anything like that. Why do people judge from friendlies anyway? Tell him to MM me up to 1K

 

[Darky-Sama]

Oi, Snakeee. What you personally rate this match-up?
You're a professional ZSS with loads of offline experience.

It'd help us come to a conclusion much easier if we heard something from you.

 

[Snakeee]

Oi, Snakeee. What you personally rate this match-up?
You're a professional ZSS with loads of offline experience.

It'd help us come to a conclusion much easier if we heard something from you.

Thanks for the compliment, and hmmm...you know I haven't played it in a good while, but I'd say 6/4 ZSS sounds right. I actually think Falcon may win on the ground, but ZSS' overall speed and aerial game give her an edge.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, we were ranging our ratio from 35:65 - 40:60.

Mainly for the fact that her air game demolishes most of Falcon's own. Without being able to safely go in the air near her, that leaves him with his fairly slow and punishable ground game. No flubbed knees to start up a grounded follow up, no fastfalling NAIRs to provide minor hitstun. Her up air pretty much wrecks all of that due to it's speed and ability to be easily buffered.

Grabs and up tilt are the only things he can highly rely on without being punished.

 

[Salem]

Yeah, we were ranging our ratio from 35:65 - 40:60.

Mainly for the fact that her air game demolishes most of Falcon's own. Without being able to safely go in the air near her, that leaves him with his fairly slow and punishable ground game. No flubbed knees to start up a grounded follow up, no fastfalling NAIRs to provide minor hitstun. Her up air pretty much wrecks all of that due to it's speed and ability to be easily buffered.

Grabs and up tilt are the only things he can highly rely on without being punished.

Spacing, Timing, grabs and U-tilt is all you need actually.
Though I need to pull out another summary thing or whatever to be sure.

ZSS is not really a hard character to beat. lol

Thats why 40:60's are here.