Category Character Tier Lists

[Sempiternity]

Well, most of the time, a good player won't let Ness even pull off his Up+B, because Ness should be hit while doing it, or have his thunderball thingo blocked. And if Ness is out of range while performing the Up+B, he'll be so far off the stage, that not many options are available after the Up+B ends (grab edge, or land on stage next to edge). Both of those scenarios are easily punishable since Ness spends so much time in free fall or has tremendous landing lag.

Link at least has somewhat decent priority and weird hitboxes to help him recover.

Sure, if nobody's around to edgeguard, then Ness wins, bar none, but there's a really good chance that if you're playing Smash, you're playing against somebody else.

TL;DR

Ness is just too easy to predict and punish. Any good player will not let a Ness back onto the stage. Hell, there's even room for a few mistakes in the process of edgeguarding a Ness, and still pulling off the KO.


Try this out: go on Kaillera and play a couple matches as Ness, and you'll soon see why he's ranked so low.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Ok, some ness can perfectly time his upb to stop at the critical moment to sweetspot the ledge from below.

1. how many times can you become consistent at this? There is no extremely good ness in existence who can sweetspot it that much anyway.

2. most characters dtilt/dsmash/ or even fsmash will still be able to get to ness b4 he can sweetspot because ness cannot grab the ledge until his y velocity is negative.

There is one instance where ness can be safe. If he is more than two ness lengths away from the stage yes less than 3-4 (this is approx btw) he can sweetspot it directly at the ledge and grab on. This is kind of difficult to do, not because its hard to aim there, but because using your pk thunder that close to stage is like begging to get graped (c wut i did thar?) by an aerial. If you recover too far away, you just get edgeguarded, and if you recover too close you get intercepted.

Plus trying to recover against the wall on a stage like DL is a real pain, and it takes you so far away, that you will just get edgehogged.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Hell, there's even room for a few mistakes in the process of edgeguarding a Ness, and still pulling off the KO.

This x 10.

You dont know how many times I just camped the edge while he was in the air, missed a dtilt cuz I though he was going for the ledge, yet had plenty of time to turn around and bthrow once he landed on the stage.

That landing lag is too much.

Also okisme, you're starting to become annoying. No argument? I have 7-8 points in the OP explaining my view. Also, if you actually read some of the posts on previous page, I make more arguments. Try to actually consider both options and actually read the thread before you call me out on my judgment.

Also do what semp said. Go play someone half decent online. Play link and record how many time you were able to make it back to the ledge when you had the physical distance to recover and then compare it to the times you make it back with ness. Also, it does not matter that your ness is not a pro aimer, it does not matter. Ness' get edgeguarded by everyone and anyone all day long.

 

[okisme]

alright, my only argument as of right now is that ness' recovery is better than link's.

i do play on kaillera as ok, and i do sweetspot the ledge quite often from BELOW and i use keyboard, people cannot tilt or smash me when i sweetspot. on kirby's dreamland there is not much difference, except if you go too far down on dl you can still die from the low bottom that stage has.

link's recovery is so bad its just the same EXACT recovery each time, over and over again, any average player can intercept that and we are talking about isai type players aren't we.

i mix up my ness recovery all the time, even though i come from below and sweetspot i do it from all over the place so that i keep the opponent guessing, link has no options because of how short it is.

in all situations i'll take ness' recovery over link's anyday

 

[Sempiternity]

alright, my only argument as of right now is that ness' recovery is better than link's.

What kind of argument is that?

 

[th3kuzinator]

If you are getting edgeguarded more while using link than

a. you are not using link's upb correctly (sweetspotting and such)

or

b. your opponents are gawd awful

 

[okisme]

my argument is ness has options, link is the samething over and over again, same with falcon.

ness has many options, with certain chars you cannot simply jump on ness, theres plenty of things i do to avoid that.

 

[okisme]

well im a ness main, maybe i think this way because its impossible for a link to recover against me?

 

[Battlecow]

His argument's not a totally merit-less one... Let's not dismiss OK as a total nubcake just yet. Ness' recovery does allow him to finish people off-stage in 1v1s in a way that link's really doesn't allow him to do. Think about it- the farthest off that link can go is a bair or maybe an Nair away from the ledge, whereas ness can do cool little combos into dair and then recover.

Personally, I still think link's is better, but it's pretty close.

 

[th3kuzinator]

In terms of recovery gaps, I feel from link to ness is about as big at they come.

 

[okisme]

are we not talking about the defensive and not the offensive aspect, how is putting my opinion out there making me a nubcake also?

link's recovery is very bad i can show you if you want me to?

 

[Battlecow]

In terms of recovery gaps, I feel from link to ness is about as big at they come.

The **** you say?

Are you talking purely in terms of distance? because in terms of how good they are, the gap is (obviously) not nearly as big as they come.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Its not your opinion when you dismiss other's opinions and dont realize the faultiness of your argument. Good players know when they are wrong, but you still seem to be pushing the same aspects of ness' recovery which I have effectively labeled as predictable.

 

[Battlecow]

Its not your opinion when you dismiss other's opinions and dont realize the faultiness of your argument. Good players know when they are wrong, but you still seem to be pushing the same aspects of ness' recovery which I have effectively labeled as predictable.

Don't get mad now kuzzy. Keep it about the argument.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I am not talking about mere distance at all. I think it goes something like this

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11. link
217. Ness

lol bcow, u mad? He just said that I had no argument and then said "my argument is that ness' recovery is greater and link's"

No one is getting angry, why call me out on it?

 

[okisme]

that entire post is very contradictory. wow.

edit: i meant ironic

 

[okisme]

its my opinion against your opinion. your opinion isn't law.

i think ness > link, you think link >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ness, and battlecow thinks link =/> ness.

so why make it seem like EVERYONE on smashboard agrees with you, i think you have taken your opinion VERY far by making it seem there is a HUGE gap between ness and link, you really need to think.

 

[th3kuzinator]

So you are saying that I am being stubborn because I keep pushing the same aspects of ness' recovery being bad right?

And I am saying you are being stubborn for pushing the other side of the spectrum.

How to solve this problem? Lets go on galaxy right now. Ill play link, you play ness. Lets see who recovers more ^ _ ^

 

[th3kuzinator]

I am not speaking for anyone on smashboards. If they do find link's recovery to be worse than ness then they should speak up.

If you wanna read back 4 pages, though, you will see a lot of people affirming my sentiment.

 

[okisme]

thats what i was thinking really, you will probably beat me, but if i get you off the stage your not coming back at all.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Ahahah I was going to say the same thing. I guarantee you, if I have the physical distance to recover, I will make it back more times when when you have the distance to recover.

 

[Sempiternity]

I mean, they're both really bad; I think the majority of us can agree on that.

I think I mentioned the extended off-stage combo ability for Ness in another thread, so that is a plus, but that's about it, and it's situational.

Ness might seem like he has more options, and he most certainly does, but more options does not equal higher rate of success. All of Ness's options are dirt-easy to edgeguard, and if you're not dying, then you're not playing at the "competitive" level this tier list is directed at.

Link and Falcon may have ridiculously predictable recoveries, and are ranked low accordingly, but they are also much quicker. Ness's recovery gives the opponent time to situate himself and prepare for the easy KO, while sometimes you have to rush to edgeguard Link or Falcon. Speed should definitely be taken into consideration, and if you can recover quickly in this game, it doesn't matter too much how "samey" the recovery is.

Link's recovery blows nuts in the distance department, but it's actually slightly difficult to edgeguard at times. Like I said, it seems to have decent priority plows through a multitude of frontal attacks. Get him from above, though, and you're toast. Falcon... is just crap. Better because he can cover more distance, and he does have hax teleporting powers sometimes, but he's ranked higher merely for his distance over Link.

Point is, you might have success recovering if you can manage to connect with a hit, or reach the ledge fast enough with Link or Falcon, but you get none of that with Ness, and a whole lot of sitting around in freefall.

Just watch something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUvSGfoiOq4
It looks like how you're describing your recovery.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Also another thing to think about you are probably biased since you are ness main.

When a ness has to edgeuard a link all he has to do if use his DJ to float up really high and then can ff a dair spike and still have enough distance to recover because ness' recovery has really big range when uncontested.

Accordingly, a ness edgeuarding a ness is a little different. I am assuming you dont use pk thunder to intercept the other guy's pk thunder. Going for a dair spike before the move is risky because they could get thir pk thunder 2 in and you are screwed and if you try to dair after the move they could DI back onto the stage and survive.

Considering what you are saying, I assume thats the way you edgeguard with ness. FF dair spikes. Am I wrong?

Not try taking a character with bleh vertical recovery like DK. If you played DK and I was recovering with Link and Ness, you could easily edgeguard the ness more than the link.

The fact that you probably only play ness has an effect of how you see their recoveries.

 

[okisme]

now show me someone on par with him? i can post an average link against an isai ness?

edit:
thats what i was thinking too after seeing the video, a dk would have more problems against a link recovering, i guess overall since its a tier list, all chars probably have an easy time against ness' recovery while ness can easily edgeguard a link and falcon and most other chars.

but still ness has options meaning once you get really good at it, you can sweetspot pretty often, that guy did the samething over and over in the video, i dont recover like that.

i understand the argument but link is more predictable and has a worse recovery but works against certain chars that you probably use as well to make it seem better than ness'.

 

[Sempiternity]

Isai doesn't do much recovering as Ness. Or any character.

Haha.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

ness has a bad recovery, possibly worse than LINK's recovery

 

[okisme]

honestly im trying to find a video with a good ness recovering, but it seems that all the matches have the ness dying without getting a chance to, or the ness not dying at all.

firo can do the angle im talking about, ness' recovery is a mindgame in itself really.

edit: yes i saw the video mr. boom.

id like to see you vs firo but honestly i still think its better than links recovery, its very close though.

edit again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRmkaaxDU6k#t=55s
the first recovery firo does is what im talking about you see how he fast falls before doing it, that means its muscle memory and he can do it almost everytime, i mean ness has options, you can sweetspot from below and im sure firo can do that as well.

the question is, how many chars have the ability to punish an above and below sweetspot? and when ness edgeguards he makes plenty of chars seem like their recoverys are bad, link fox falcon dk etc, theres many variables in ness' recovery you have to consider, since i doubt you main ness you dont know.

if any other ness mains are out there voice your opinions.

 

[dch111]

the question is, how many chars have the ability to punish an above and below sweetspot?

The below sweetspot is solved by edgehogging, since Ness's PK Thunder 2 loses invincibility toward the end (that is, you don't even have to time the edgehog to maintain invincibility frames). The edgeguarder gets plenty of time to do this since Ness's sweetspot from below is the lengthiest recovery in smash in terms of total time taken. If Ness tries to play mindgames by going a bit above the sweetspot and landing, the opponent simply does a ledgehop aerial, restarting the cycle.

As for the above sweetspot, in that video Yoshi should have grabbed the ledge as soon as he saw Ness initiating PKT2 from that position (there was time to do this since the loop of the PK Thunder takes so long). Upon doing so, the Ness's only choice is to land above the ledge, or shoot high and try to psych out Yoshi by fast falling. Unfortunately, since the Ness chooses to initiate PKT2 from such a distance, a quick neutral edge get-up by Yoshi allows him to cover both options with either an aerial if Ness shoots high, or a grab if Ness lands since his landing lag is so large. The cycle is restarted.

All analyses of Ness's recoveries against edgeguarders come down to a series of cycles that ends when Ness has taken too much damage and cannot continue the cycle. That he can last such a long time off the edge is impressive, but futile.

The key to Link having the advantage in recovery lies in recovering from the medium to close distance, where his boomerang and sword range often foils edgeguarding attempts by most of the cast. Overshot upbs and fastfall to upb mindgames work well when Link has a liberal amount of room to maneuver in. Whereas Ness, with his floatiness, slow jumps, high landing lag, and slow PKT2 initiation (that also directly tells the opponent where he is going) is easily stopped regardless of how much room he has to maneuver in.

If Ness's PKT2 was invincible during its entire duration, then it might be a different story.

 

[The Star King]

edit again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRmkaaxDU6k#t=55s
the first recovery firo does is what im talking about you see how he fast falls before doing it, that means its muscle memory and he can do it almost everytime, i mean ness has options, you can sweetspot from below and im sure firo can do that as well.

Sheer could've simply tossed an egg a bit later and hit Firo. I'm not sure why he threw the egg so early.

Even against Firo, I get the vast majority of my edgeguards in. If a Ness recovering from above the ledge, just hit him before he can hit himself with PK Thunder. If he's too far away to hit (including projectiles), grab the edge and punish the landing lag.

 

[asianaussie]

Ness's recovery is enormously edgeguardable, link has fairly large priority and lacks distance. Neither is anywhere near good, or even mediocre.

As star king said, edgehog and their attempt at sweetspotting must be turned into landing on the ledge, and he has enormous landing lag that makes him severely punishable. You can even ignore this: the length of time it takes for a character to jump out and hit him or his thunderball is less than the time it takes for ness to finish his recovery.

 

[dandan]

i do sweetspot the ledge quite often from BELOW and i use keyboard, people cannot tilt or smash me when i sweetspot. on kirby's dreamland there is not much difference, except if you go too far down on dl you can still die from the low bottom that stage has.

iirc, you cannot truly sweetspot from below, you have to do it from above like the video you have shown of firo doing it. if you do it from below, even if your distance is perfect, there is still a slight pause until he grabs the edge.

also, if you are going that low, the opponent has so much time to either steal your upb (which gets ness noobs so angry) or just edgehog, and that is without even considering the possibilities of just normal gimping or edge guarding.

 

[ciaza]

ciaza is possibly the coolest person in the known universe

Sick 2000 posts homo.

The best way I found for a Ness to recover is to go high and over the top and then try to mindgame them with fastfalling. It doesn't work most of the time but neither does any of his other options :/

 

[ballin4life]

The best way for ness to recover is to not use UpB at all and just sweetspot the ledge with downB imo

 

[Battlecow]

I am not talking about mere distance at all. I think it goes something like this

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11. link
217. Ness

lol bcow, u mad? He just said that I had no argument and then said "my argument is that ness' recovery is greater and link's"

No one is getting angry, why call me out on it?

Pretty sure there's a bigger distance between pikachu and link or pikachu and ness than between ness and link. That's all I'm saying. Deep breaths. In- and Out. In- and Out.

 

[NixxxoN]

dont wanna discuss again about ness vs link recoveries, its pointless, both are terrible and thats about it

 

[The Star King]

The best way for ness to recover is to not use UpB at all and just sweetspot the ledge with downB imo

To beat this you can simply jump out on top of Ness with a sex kick before he reaches the ledge. Either Ness takes the hit, or he can beat your sex kick with an uair, but either way he is forced to use his up b. The only way this won't work is if you're at a high enough % so that the uair KOs you lol

Battlecow, pretty sure kuz meant the gap between characters ranked consecutively on the recovery list

 

[ballin4life]

I'm not by any means saying it is impossible to stop ness's downB sweetspot but it's way better than having to use the upB.

 

[th3kuzinator]

To beat this you can simply jump out on top of Ness with a sex kick before he reaches the ledge. Either Ness takes the hit, or he can beat your sex kick with an uair, but either way he is forced to use his up b. The only way this won't work is if you're at a high enough % so that the uair KOs you lol

I feel the first two times I try psi magnet they usually work, but then the opponent starts to catch on and punish me with sex kicks like you state.

Then you just gotta switch it up and try to catch them off guard. Thats the only way to make it back with ness, trick your opponent and have a little luck on your side.

Battlecow, pretty sure kuz meant the gap between characters ranked consecutively on the recovery list

Yep.

 

[Battlecow]

Oh- OK then. That might be true. My bad. But you did say

"In terms of recovery gaps, I feel from link to ness is about as big at they come."

So you can see how I might get confused.

 

[okisme]

The below sweetspot is solved by edgehogging, since Ness's PK Thunder 2 loses invincibility toward the end (that is, you don't even have to time the edgehog to maintain invincibility frames). The edgeguarder gets plenty of time to do this since Ness's sweetspot from below is the lengthiest recovery in smash in terms of total time taken. If Ness tries to play mindgames by going a bit above the sweetspot and landing, the opponent simply does a ledgehop aerial, restarting the cycle.

As for the above sweetspot, in that video Yoshi should have grabbed the ledge as soon as he saw Ness initiating PKT2 from that position (there was time to do this since the loop of the PK Thunder takes so long). Upon doing so, the Ness's only choice is to land above the ledge, or shoot high and try to psych out Yoshi by fast falling. Unfortunately, since the Ness chooses to initiate PKT2 from such a distance, a quick neutral edge get-up by Yoshi allows him to cover both options with either an aerial if Ness shoots high, or a grab if Ness lands since his landing lag is so large. The cycle is restarted.

All analyses of Ness's recoveries against edgeguarders come down to a series of cycles that ends when Ness has taken too much damage and cannot continue the cycle. That he can last such a long time off the edge is impressive, but futile.

The key to Link having the advantage in recovery lies in recovering from the medium to close distance, where his boomerang and sword range often foils edgeguarding attempts by most of the cast. Overshot upbs and fastfall to upb mindgames work well when Link has a liberal amount of room to maneuver in. Whereas Ness, with his floatiness, slow jumps, high landing lag, and slow PKT2 initiation (that also directly tells the opponent where he is going) is easily stopped regardless of how much room he has to maneuver in.

If Ness's PKT2 was invincible during its entire duration, then it might be a different story.

how do i put this.. ness still has more options over link, theres plenty of mindgames involved in ness' recovery, whereas link is the samething over and over and over again.

the downward angle is not that easy to ledgehop on in the heat of a match because he fastfalled just before doing the up b and can do it quick enough...

all im trying to say is, ness can get hit most of the time, but so can link.

edit:
a downward angled pk thunder 2 on the stage has no lag, but even ill say thats 99% of the time a bad option, but its still an option that link doesnt have.

if a good ness could recover at a horizontal angle thats just another option ness has over link, and landing on the stage at that angle would have no lag