Challenger Approaching!!! - Young Link Returns. [Codeset + Voice Change Included!]

[dabridge]

Probability can't be added to attacks.

 

[Zephron]

Very nice work. Any chance you can get a video of him in action?

I already made one. This is how it looks on my screen, and sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q28XjaAwaT8

It's really awesome.

@Demacrez

None for us Q_Q

 

[RPGsFTW]

Personally, I think that his face needs some more changes to look child like. Whoever did Baby Mario did a really good job on the face change. I also think his shield should look like the wooden shield, texture hack probably?, and his gloves should probably be changed to look like skin, like Young Link in Melee.

Besides size and what not, are his attacks actually changed, or is he just a smaller Link atm?
I'd kinda like to see the flame meteor, and Dsmash that boosts people away. Also, multi-hitting bomb explosions.

Despite all that, I agree with GoodOldGanon about three Links being unnecessary. Sorry, not trying to sound me. Besides me hating Young Link *cough*

 

[jackharvest]

Personally, I think that his face needs some more changes to look child like. Whoever did Baby Mario did a really good job on the face change. I also think his shield should look like the wooden shield, texture hack probably?, and his gloves should probably be changed to look like skin, like Young Link in Melee.

Besides size and what not, are his attacks actually changed, or is he just a smaller Link atm?
I'd kinda like to see the flame meteor, and Dsmash that boosts people away. Also, multi-hitting bomb explosions.

Despite all that, I agree with GoodOldGanon about three Links being unnecessary. Sorry, not trying to sound me. Besides me hating Young Link *cough*

His eyes need to be taller, and his face WIDER. That would solve his youngevity issue. You cannot, however, alter those.

Baby Mario was made by BigSharkZ from ESH, and yes, he did a great job on it. His results, however - were obviously super noticable, since the applied techniques used were suitable to create a transformed Mario. (No Mustache, beady eyes, etc). Mario's eyes are large, and within the socket can be treated to become smaller.

Link however, has slitted eyes with a stubby socket. We couldn't enlarge them without going onto the face itself - which would look REALLY odd when he blinked.

Having only the ability to shrink and enlarge things (not lengthen or give more height to) was a hurdle that was annoying, and unsurpassable.

As mentioned before, we changed the gloves (gauntlets) to skin, and he looked gruesome.

I'm not bitterly defending the texture, I'm merely stating what people don't tend to read when they bust in here and start misunderstanding. XD

 

[Zephron]

Despite all that, I agree with GoodOldGanon about three Links being unnecessary. Sorry, not trying to sound me. Besides me hating Young Link *cough*

Young Link, I think should get a moveset unique to him.
I suggested somehow making him TL a long time ago, but people told me that's impossible.

If we're putting Doc in this game (who was the closest clone, IMO) and Roy, and even possibly Dark Samus, I think the Young Link mains can have this.

Mewtwo might have not been possible, but this is. I want 3 Links in 1 game <_< We got like 7 Pokemon, and 2 Marios, and potentially 3 Samuses.
3 Links isn't all that much to ask.


Also, please read before you post. Jack was right.
Those comments make me mad <_<

 

[colored blind]

Young Link, I think should get a moveset unique to him.
I suggested somehow making him TL a long time ago, but people told me that's impossible.

If we're putting Doc in this game (who was the closest clone, IMO) and Roy, and even possibly Dark Samus, I think the Young Link mains can have this.

Mewtwo might have not been possible, but this is. I want 3 Links in 1 game <_< We got like 7 Pokemon, and 2 Marios, and potentially 3 Samuses.
3 Links isn't all that much to ask.


Also, please read before you post. Jack was right.
Those comments make me mad <_<

I do want to point out here, that Dark Samus and Samus are completely different characters. And that Samus and ZSS have completely different movesets. So that comparison isn't entirely accurate.

I think where the issue about people not wanting a YL character is where it becomes three characters having variations on the same moveset. I feel like more focus should be put towards other characters who don't yet have a clone already in the game, but I also realize that it's my personal opinion and if you guys do manage to make a good codeset that works with the size mod, kudos to you.

I do want to say that this texture/size hack is excellent. Unless I'm mistaked, this is the first size hack that isn't buggy and doesn't resize itself when you use certain moves, correct? That in itself makes it pretty spectacular. My only criticism would be like one of the above posters said about possibly texturing the Wooden Shield instead of the Hylian Shield. Regardless of that, this is awesome, and a huge step forward in texture hacking in general.

 

[Zephron]

I do want to point out here, that Dark Samus and Samus are completely different characters. And that Samus and ZSS have completely different movesets. So that comparison isn't entirely accurate.

Just like how TL and Link are very different. I was hoping to make him different as well. He needs to be unique.

I think where the issue about people not wanting a YL character is where it becomes three characters having variations on the same moveset. I feel like more focus should be put towards other characters who don't yet have a clone already in the game, but I also realize that it's my personal opinion and if you guys do manage to make a good codeset that works with the size mod, kudos to you.

This is where the problem is, and I understand. But I think he's worth it and it's possible to make him unique.

Consider TL and Link, and their big differences with the same moveset. Or Lucas and Ness, with their big difference but the same specials.

I do want to say that this texture/size hack is excellent. Unless I'm mistaked, this is the first size hack that isn't buggy and doesn't resize itself when you use certain moves, correct? That in itself makes it pretty spectacular. My only criticism would be like one of the above posters said about possibly texturing the Wooden Shield instead of the Hylian Shield. Regardless of that, this is awesome, and a huge step forward in texture hacking in general.

The Deku shield is impossible. The design has to be symmetrical. And the Deku shield is not. I tried it anyway, but it looks really bad.

The Majora's mask shield is symmetrical and looks a lot better. Plus I added the razor sword.

Yeah, he remains the same size for everything. I'm really happy about that.
It hasn't made my game freeze or anything.



I was just always a huge fan of Young Link and I think a lot of the previous Young Link mains would also want him back.

 

[TLMSheikant]

How about we make him the faster Link? Have low damage output and give his nair the insane priority it had in melee XD.

 

[colored blind]

Just like how TL and Link are very different. I was hoping to make him different as well. He needs to be unique.

The only reason I'm picking at this is because I'm a huge Metroid (and Zelda, for that matter) fan, so I feel the need to make the difference clear. Samus and ZSS have COMPLETELY different movesets. Not as in 'they're very different even though they share similar moves'. And Dark Samus is as much a separate entity from Samus as Bowser is from Mario. Dark Samus is the quintessential antagonist of the Prime series, which also helps to fill the niche of getting a Metroid villain into Brawl (since, well, we know the story with Ridley). But then, this isn't really important to the justification of YL as his own character. I just wanted to clear up this misconception.

The tricky part is trying to find a good way to make YL unique. Making him just a faster Link would quickly draw comparisons to TL. And a simple middle ground between Link and TL's speed, while very feasible, just sounds kind of boring to me. I think more than anything, what a good YL codeset needs to look for is a central theme/idea that will make him vastly different from both TL and Link. Like how Marth is all about wicked spacing and looking for the right time to position yourself for a kill whereas Roy is a heavy glass canon type of character (as opposed to Jiggs, who is also a glass canon, but in a completely different way). I think that would be the biggest way to differentiate between the Links.

Oh crap, I didn't even notice the Razor Sword and MM Shield! I just saw the Hylian Shield colors and assumed it was that. Excellent attention to detail, then. My bad, lol. That Razor Sword is pretty excellent.

Yeah, he remains the same size for everything. I'm really happy about that.
It hasn't made my game freeze or anything.

This is awesome. Do you have any idea why the size mods are okay for YL, but they'll end up 'fixing themselves' for Pichu and Baby Mario? Is it because of how drastic their size mods are, or something else?

 

[goodoldganon]

Look, no one is going to stop anyone from making Y Link. This is a very cool texture hack and setup. You just have to find someone who likes Y. Link enough to spend the time to make and develop him. I really never liked Roy that much I only went ahead with Roy because I was able to design the tip system.

As I said, no one is forcing you not to make a Y Link, you guys gotta find a talented coder who wants to spend the time though.

 

[Zephron]

The only reason I'm picking at this is because I'm a huge Metroid (and Zelda, for that matter) fan, so I feel the need to make the difference clear. Samus and ZSS have COMPLETELY different movesets.

I know that part. ZSS have completely different movesets. Just want you to know I know that and I agree. However you know that Dark Samus and Samus have the same moveset but they got Dark Samus to be completely different. This is one reason I have hope for Young Link.

The tricky part is trying to find a good way to make YL unique....

I think that would be the biggest way to differentiate between the Links.

Yeah. We can use this topic as a way to discuss ways to make him unique, and if we start getting really good ideas, we can start coding him.

We'll see n' stuff.

Oh crap, I didn't even notice the Razor Sword and MM Shield! I just saw the Hylian Shield colors and assumed it was that. Excellent attention to detail, then. My bad, lol. That Razor Sword is pretty excellent.

It took awhile to get them to look like that. Thanks.

This is awesome. Do you have any idea why the size mods are okay for YL, but they'll end up 'fixing themselves' for Pichu and Baby Mario? Is it because of how drastic their size mods are, or something else?

Mario's various body parts get bigger with some of his attacks. (With his jab, his hands and feet get really huge, or his Fair, which makes his fist huge.)

Since they have to grow bigger, I think they might have a tendancy to "snap" back to their original form.

None of Link's moves make any part of him bigger. I think this helps a lot.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Why are you comparing young link to Link when in order to get YL into the game you have to replace Link?

 

[Zephron]

Why are you comparing young link to Link when in order to get YL into the game you have to replace Link?

Why do you comment before reading? <__<

You don't replace Link. You can set it to player 4, for example. Players 1, 2, and 3 all have normal Link. Simply use player 4 when you want Young Link.

You could set it to 1, 2, 3 and 4, and THEN Link wouldn't be in the game.
But we didn't do that.

 

[jackharvest]

The front page has been updated to include an increasing "Molding" list for Young Link, and how to make him more Young Link-like. Ideas are welcome - as most things are editable.

 

[colored blind]

Well...Let's just think. What did young Link do in Melee that Link couldn't? Say...What was his basic strategy? Does TL occupy that spot now? How can you implement the feel and flow of Melee YL without making him a lot like TL?

The more hardcore Melee YL mains would be able to help a lot with describing his playstyle and Bread & Butter type moves better, and how to similarly use those characteristics in Brawl+

 

[jalued]

Well...Let's just think. What did young Link do in Melee that Link couldn't? Say...What was his basic strategy? Does TL occupy that spot now? How can you implement the feel and flow of Melee YL without making him a lot like TL?

The more hardcore Melee YL mains would be able to help a lot with describing his playstyle and Bread & Butter type moves better, and how to similarly use those characteristics in Brawl+

well the only killmove he really had was dsmash and dtilt spike. basic strategy is use bombs, boomerang and arrrows and just camp the hell out of them lol. had a few combos such as nair to nair etc, but not many. basically a much weaker but faster and smaller version of Link (imo anyway). TL is a much mroe comboey character than YL, plus he generally kills vertically, while YL kills horizontally

 

[TLMSheikant]

Nair was the bread and butter YL move in melee. It had insane priority, great edgeguard and almost no lag when SHFFL'd. Upair was a great juggler in melee. Down smash was his most reliable kill move and the trayectory it sent ppl in was awesome. Fire spike <3. The boomerang could be thrown at steeper angles. Bombs were multihit and had a lot of hitstun and could usually be followed up with any aerial normally his nair dair or upair. His dtilt was a good edgeguard (could be teched tho). Umm full hop arrows to waveland were great. His usmash combo'd to upair. And he was just awesome XD. YL will always be the best <3. If you ppl could implement all that stuff (and somehow make it so that he had TL's rang, upB and fsmash while retaining Link's moveset since its much more similar)

 

[ketchup799]

i never really played him competitively, but i used young link a lot and i mostly utilized his really fast speed in combination with bombs and boomerang. kinda like camping, but more using them to approach and using them as diversions/combo starters. the down smash is his best kill move. i'd love to see a young link that acts similar to melee. toon link just didn't cut it for me.

 

[Mattnumbers]

The problem with adding in Y. Link is that there are a limited amount of slots (7) and there should be characters that are more unique than a non-Toon young Link.

Roy is a different person than Marth, and has the tipper system
Doc is kind of the same thing, but since Mario doesn't already have a near clone (Luigi is COMPLETELY different) I think it's fine
Dark Samus is much different than Samus as well, and there isn't already a clone of Samus either.

 

[Zephron]

The problem with adding in Y. Link is that there are a limited amount of slots (7) and there should be characters that are more unique than a non-Toon young Link.

Roy is a different person than Marth, and has the tipper system
Doc is kind of the same thing, but since Mario doesn't already have a near clone (Luigi is COMPLETELY different) I think it's fine
Dark Samus is much different than Samus as well, and there isn't already a clone of Samus either.

What do you mean, a limited amount of 7 slots? What?

And I don't mind having 3 Links if we can make him competitively different than TL and Link.

TL used his projectiles to camp. Y.L used his projectiles to camp for a little bit (limited amount of time) and then use them to approach and attack.

Dark Samus is completely different and I think we can make Young Link just as different. All we need is a good game changer to get things going. Let's toss around ideas.

@TLM Sheikant

Thanks for your big input, as well as everyone else's. This is great help.
We still need a game changer though. We need an idea that won't make him broken but helps him and makes him original to play.

Bleah.

 

[goodoldganon]

Once again, find someone to code it and it's possible. Personally, I won't but someone is bound to. Also, though there will probably only be 7 characters you can add to your Brawl, most likely none of the added characters will become tourney official, therefore you can add whatever 7 you like.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

with all the young link codes, it removed all --added in-- effects from all characters. (E.G ganondorf electric bair, dark fair, jigglypuff fire rest, etc.)

Anyone know why the codes did this? And I DO KNOW THAT it is indeed the codes, because when I removed them the added effects came back.

 

[jackharvest]

with all the young link codes, it removed all --added in-- effects from all characters. (E.G ganondorf electric bair, dark fair, jigglypuff fire rest, etc.)

Anyone know why the codes did this? And I DO KNOW THAT it is indeed the codes, because when I removed them the added effects came back.

Appreciate the concern. We've added it to a new list on the front page. We'll do our best to resolve it.

Also, TLMSheikant - Thanks for the input. Large amounts of it was added to the front page.

Young Link (and Link's) arrows in Melee were a lot wimpier (MUCH shorter flight distance). I just wanted to roll around the idea of increasing the gravitational pull when he's firing arrows. Maybe it can be left alone because of the fact that Link's arrows have also been "upgraded" to the faster, newer brawl version as well? Just a thought.

The hookshot is also much tinier on the original Young Link. Should we shorten the length of it? These are obviously two detrimental things that will lessen YL's effectiveness as a whole, but will clearly make him more Melee-ish.

 

[Beta Knight]

Anyone else find it ironic that everyone hated clones in melee, and yet now people are hacking their wiis to get them back.

 

[superyoshi888]

In Melee, clones where just that: clones. They played very similarly to their counterpart. Now, in Brawl, clones are very different from their counterpart. The only one that seems remotely similar is TLink and Link, and even then it's very little that's similar. Since we have the ability to revive clones and Luigify them, people want them back.

 

[Zephron]

@ Symphonic Sage:
That's weird, that doesn't happen to me or any of my friends who downloaded the codes. Hope we can fix that for you.


Also, maybe we could make Y.Link's arrows really do the spike like they did in melee. They obviously did it in BBrawl so this could be one of the big things that makes Link and Young Link different. (Fire Spike ftw)

We need a couple other things besides this, though.

Who would hack a character's moveset when the people who want it done don't even know what to change???

 

[TLMSheikant]

If only I knew how to code :/. Heres what I'd do/try to implement to make YL...YL:
* Make his sword attacks have less range overall.
* Make neutrail air do 12% damage when beginning and come out in frame 4 like in melee.
* Make fair have a faster ALR and do less damage and knockback than regular Link's...also have less range. I would also make it so the first hit is the one that does the most damage and knockback.
* Make upair come out faster ala melee.
* Make the hilt of the sword flame spike when using his down air. Make his normal down air have less knockback than normal Link's. Killing at around 120-130 with DI.
* Ftilt comes out faster but has less range and knockback.
* Down Tilt spikes ala melee. And on stage pops the opponent up for stuff. Less range of course.
* Make his upsmash always link all the hits and and lower its cooldown to allow for better follow ups. Eliminate the DACUS.
* Make Down Smash send at a horizontal angle and make his second dsmash hit come out a lot faster and have less cooldown.
* Make his uptilt have the same pathetic range of melee LOL but make it come out faster and have less knockback.
* Make his upB rise a lot more making his recovery better than Link's but not better than Toon Link's.
* Make his bombs multi hit (is it even possible) and give them a lot more hitstun.
* Eliminate the gale boomerang's wind effect and texture hack the rang to make it similar to melee YL's. Then make it reach further and be able to be thrown at steeper angles. Make the sweetspot rang do 15% damage and have more hitstun, normal hit rang 8% damage and returning rang 3% damage.
* Arrows curve more downward, make them look like fire arrows and give then a fire effect. Uncharged arrows do 8% damage (melee).
* Make his upB multi hit and make his last upB hit spike them and lower the cooldown so that he can tech chase with it.
* His Hookshot has less range, pops them up (to make them different) and the hits do less damage.
* Make him have a lot more momentum.
* Decrease his fall speed.
* Increase his pummel speed but make each hit do 1 damage.
* Take off the gauntlets ;_; and fix the popeye like hands so removing them doenst look awkward XD.
* Make his dash attack send the opponent at a horizontal angle and make it a viable kill move after the 130 mark.
* Make his fsmash hit 1 the only hit (if it is possible) not very meleeish but 3 links with two hit fsmashes gets boring :/, lower the range, lower the knockback but make it come out in frame 11.
* Make his jab1 come out in frame 2 to make him feel like the faster link and lower the range by a lot.
* Increase running speed.
* Have better aerial mobility.
* Make him have a wall jump.
* Lower his grab range. But make it come out faster and have less cooldown.

Just some ideas for any good coder to look into :D.

 

[SuSa]

Isn't their controller port priority in Brawl+? Then the Player-1 only YL might be a problem....then again, not tourney play so it shouldn't be.

 

[Zephron]

@SuSa - Remember you can set it to players 1, 2, 3 or 4. And it would be incredible if this eventually got to tourney legal.


@ TLMSheikant

Wow!!!

Very excellent feedback. I read all of it and all of it will be noted.

I'm sure most of the things you mentioned we can implement but let me tell you a few things:

•With making Young Link smaller, this decreased the size of his sword as well. The hitbox was also shrunk. So naturally all of his attacks have less range than Link's normally has.

•I don't think we can reduce his hookshot range, but we probably can affect what happens when it hits people.

•We cannot remove his gauntlets. It's impossible. We would've done it beforehand, believe me. And fixing his hands would also be impossible.

•I don't think we can make any attack multi-hit. So we'll have to improvise on his bombs.

•I don't think we can give him a wall jump. He doesn't have the animation for it and there aren't codes for that.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ I was afraid all of those would be impossible. If only there was a way to give him TL's upb lol. The problem lies in similar YL melee moves being in different character's movesets. Like YL's melee back air, nair, fair, usmash and down smash being very similar to Brawl Link's. And YL's melee fsmash, upB, wall jump and boomerang now being in TL's moveset :/. The bombs dont neccesarily need to be multi hit, they could just do more damage, have more hitstun and have set knockback. Good luck zephron ^_^.

 

[colored blind]

There. Now it sounds like it's plausible to be different from both TL and Link. For YL to have something similar to TL's Fsmash, just make the first hit have less knockback and cooldown but sends the opponent at a good enough angle that the second hit (with increased startup) would be able to hit before the hitstun wears off. I know knockback, damage, and hitstun are all somehow related, so I'm not sure how this'll work.

 

[Zephron]

^ I was afraid all of those would be impossible. If only there was a way to give him TL's upb lol. The problem lies in similar YL melee moves being in different character's movesets. Like YL's melee back air, nair, fair, usmash and down smash being very similar to Brawl Link's. And YL's melee fsmash, upB, wall jump and boomerang now being in TL's moveset :/. The bombs dont neccesarily need to be multi hit, they could just do more damage, have more hitstun and have set knockback. Good luck zephron ^_^.

Hey, don't get me wrong. Looking at your list, a ton of things are possible. All of those things can make a completely different character. This information is invaluable. I hope you can aid us in coming up with more ideas and giving us other information.

We can make Y. Link have something similar to TL's up b. I'm sure of it.

Also, we might be able to remove the wind effect on the boomerang but we can't edit what it looks like yet. Darn.

 

[jackharvest]

@SuSa - Remember you can set it to players 1, 2, 3 or 4. And it would be incredible if this eventually got to tourney legal.


@ TLMSheikant

Wow!!!

Very excellent feedback. I read all of it and all of it will be noted.

I'm sure most of the things you mentioned we can implement but let me tell you a few things:

•With making Young Link smaller, this decreased the size of his sword as well. The hitbox was also shrunk. So naturally all of his attacks have less range than Link's normally has.

•I don't think we can reduce his hookshot range, but we probably can affect what happens when it hits people.

•We cannot remove his gauntlets. It's impossible. We would've done it beforehand, believe me. And fixing his hands would also be impossible.

•I don't think we can make any attack multi-hit. So we'll have to improvise on his bombs.

•I don't think we can give him a wall jump. He doesn't have the animation for it and there aren't codes for that.

Giving him a wall-jump is entirely possible. The animation is already there. In case you've never done it before, when characters are in uncontrollable mode, and you tech & move away from the wall at the same time, nearly every character has a walljump. Link's however, merely cannot be used on command at the moment (changeable).

Also, shrinking the over-all size of the hookshot would possibly do the trick. What I'd REALLY like to see get done, is the "hookshot anywhere" gimmick trick that we saw in Melee. That drastically needs to return.

 

[Zephron]

Giving him a wall-jump is entirely possible. The animation is already there. In case you've never done it before, when characters are in uncontrollable mode, and you tech & move away from the wall at the same time, nearly every character has a walljump. Link's however, merely cannot be used on command at the moment (changeable).

Also, shrinking the over-all size of the hookshot would possibly do the trick. What I'd REALLY like to see get done, is the "hookshot anywhere" gimmick trick that we saw in Melee. That drastically needs to return.

Wow, didn't know that.

The main things I want to know / be done:

•Hookshot anywhere thing. /agree with Jack

• Find a way to edit such items like the Bow, Boomerang, and Hookshot.
Normal texture hacking does not allow this.

• Find out how to actually make the hookshot smaller. Seriously.

• Find out if we can get rid of the wind effect on Link's boomerang and if that gets rid of the wind effect onscreen.

• A game changer for Young Link.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I heard that they can't make the hookshot connect to any part of the stage, because, they would just have to make the entire side of the stage grabbable, which would **** up wall jumps, up b's, edgeguarding, etc.

 

[Demacrez]

I heard that they can't make the hookshot connect to any part of the stage, because, they would just have to make the entire side of the stage grabbable, which would **** up wall jumps, up b's, edgeguarding, etc.

Well, look on the bright side: we get wall grappling.

 

[Beta Knight]

In Melee, clones where just that: clones. They played very similarly to their counterpart. Now, in Brawl, clones are very different from their counterpart. The only one that seems remotely similar is TLink and Link, and even then it's very little that's similar. Since we have the ability to revive clones and Luigify them, people want them back.

You're not luigifying them if you don't change their moveset. So all you'll be able to do is change the speed strength and hit box size of each attack, which is what the melee clones had.

 

[Zephron]

You're not luigifying them if you don't change their moveset. So all you'll be able to do is change the speed strength and hit box size of each attack, which is what the melee clones had.

We ARE going to "Luigify" Young Link. We didn't say we weren't going to change his moveset. We are going to.

All this thread needs now is some discussion on some different ways to make him unique. We have a few options, we need more.

Toon Link can be a very campy character, and so can Link, to a lesser extent.

We could either make Young Link unable to camp, or have some kind of medium of camping ability. I want a minimal amount of the "medium" between the two though. Too much of that will not make him unique at all.

I don't want him to be the "middle" of TL and Link. This guy is his own thing, alright?

I suggest:

1.) Like in balanced brawl, his arrows spike, or at least can gimp very well.

2.) We should discuss his ability to camp.

3.) We make his nair just like Melee, as well as his dsmash.

4.) Discuss other ways we can influence his moves to make him unqiue.


For instance, his Link's bair is a combo move. He doesn't use it to finish anyone. So is TL's bair. He uses it to combo. So we could make this somehow a finishing move or perhaps something else.

Stuff like that.

 

[generalsmash]

Thank god he's back. I hate gay looking Toon Link.

 

[BG3]

This thread needs to stay alive for the purpose of bringing back the forgotten five characters in melee. Are you still working on this Zephron?