Character Board Specific Matchup Chart Project (Last Update: 12/21)- Not a tier list!

[cutter]

Alright then, here is the matchup chart for G&W from the G&W boards:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763

It's very incomplete ATM, but we were going extremely indepth into each matchup which explains why it's going quite slow.

EDIT: You forgot Donkey Kong

 

[DanGR]

the light blue and the teal are kinda hard to pick out (at least for me). you could put in purple or something darker for the huge advantage/hard counter, and use light blue as small advantage/soft counter. or you can change to w/e color you want. it just might be hard at first glance to differentiate between those 2.

I'll change it.

Hey DanGR, I just started one of these myself last week.... I have an excel file with all the data I could find on the character boards, and then I began to fill in the blanks. It's only just over 1/2 filled in, but it's much father along than yours.

Would you like me to send it to you?

I have the raw data on one sheet, and the filled in copy on another sheet in the same doc

Did you use the same system I used? Did you only fill in the matchups both character boards agree with? If so, it'd be great to have that info!

EDIT: You forgot Donkey Kong

wow, that's big. I'll see what I can do.

 

[Adapt]

I'll change it.


Did you use the same system I used? Did you only fill in the matchups both character boards agree with? If so, it'd be great to have that info!

I'll send it to you so you can see what I did, You will likely find the second sheet more useful than the first

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hrmm... I don't have a link... do I really need to?

Zeldas all hate Game and Watch and Marth.

I don't think they atre hard counters by any stretch, but, G&W at least, has a clear advantage

 

[petrie911]

I think you should have yellow be neutral, green be small advantage, and blue be large advantage.

You should really have the actual numbers in the boxes, too. The limits of advantage/disadvantage have gaps between them; you might want to fix that.

And you said something about an excel version? It'd be nice to have a link to that, too.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think you should have yellow be neutral, green be small advantage, and blue be large advantage.

Also, you should really have the numbers in the actual boxes. And you said something about an excel version? It'd be nice to have a link to that, too.

too hard to have actual #s agreed upon at thi point

 

[DanGR]

I think you should have yellow be neutral, green be small advantage, and blue be large advantage.

I agree. I'll change it soon.

I have a question about Captain Falcon's matchups thread. The 5 categories are

3 {Nightmare Matchups}
4 {Painful Matchups}
5 {Difficult Matchups}
6 {Not-So-Bad Matchups}
7 {Even Matchups}

Which is disadvantage, big disadvantage, and nuetral?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4749443#post4749443

 

[Behemoth King]

I'm pretty sure the list goes from worst match-ups to neutrals. So Nightmare would be the worst, and even would be the best.

3&4 = Big disadvantage
5&6 = Disadvantage
7 = Neutral

 

[Sosuke]

I'm pretty sure the list goes from worst match-ups to neutrals. So Nightmare would be the worst, and even would be the best.

3&4 = Big disadvantage
5&6 = Disadvantage
7 = Neutral

Thats pretty sad

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yoshi - http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176831

 

[Johnthegalactic]

This seems to be coming along nicely, thanks!

 

[Blackbelt]

The Lucas board started a week by week matchup discussion, found here

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183767

And I must say, I love this thread.


No inane arguments, just cold hard facts.

 

[philbobjoe]

You seem to have a dark yellow on the ZSS vs. Olimar, and ZSS vs. Yoshi matchups.

 

[Mmac]

Uh, we have Marth listed as a 35:65 Disadvantage. It should be Orange, not Red

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Keep up the could work, and could you use a brighter sharper orange, the current orange you use bothers me...

 

[DanGR]

Keep up the could work, and could you use a brighter sharper orange, the current orange you use bothers me...

I'll change it the next update. Zamz is working on a better chart right now. It's much neater. It'll be bigger as well.

@everyone- If you see any mistakes or have anything you'd like me to add, just post it here!

 

[Griffard]

Ganondorf has a normal disadvantage vs. Wario due to the newly discovered grab-release semi-infinite into usmash or fsmash for the win. Wario still has better air priority and is better overall, but Ganon now has a good weapon against him. Wario boards say this is 7-3, which i think is a normal disadvantage.

 

[DanGR]

Well, I think I need to change the OP. Right now, I have 70/30+ listed as a big disadvantage. It think it should be 75/25+. Anyone else agree? Or is it fine the way it is?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Agreed.
By the way, maybe you should consider adding in the matchups if one board hasn't specifically addressed it yet. Although it may show some bias, it does provide a starting point for actual debate rather than something everyone agrees on.
Not to mention it would make the chart look a little fuller.

 

[DanGR]

:/... ... ... idk. That would change the whole point of the chart. My goal is accuracy, not neatness, or fullness, or whatever. As long as it's 100% accurate and up-to-date, I don't really care how it looks.(although Zamz is working on a neater looking chart for me ) The problem we run into is exactly what you mentioned, bias. I want NO bias in this chart. I want both side's opinions. Some character boards like link and boozer don't even care enough to make a matchup thread. It's sad.

Edit: DDD's matchup thread has DK listed as 70/30. That would be the cutoff for big or small advantage. Though we all know that DDD does have a very sizable advantage against him. I'm confused.

 

[Kiwikomix]

No, but what I mean is that, though debate, we could actually determine the correct scoring for any particular matchup.
Not to mention the many boards that do a character a week at a time, who will not be finished until this thread is long gone.
I guess my problem lies in assuming that a mulititude of intelligent debaters EXIST in Tactical Discussion.

 

[ROOOOY!]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161598
Sonic's match-up thread is here. It's being COMPLETELY re-vamped though. We're only about two characters in.
It'll progress I'm sure. I'm not sure how much it'll help this chart, because it doesn't throw out numbers or even give an advantage/disadvantage verdict, it's more of a "how to avoid dying thread."

 

[DanGR]

:/ I don't want this thread to be a duplicate of Ivan's. It's not a debate hall, nor would I like it to be. That's for the character specific matchup threads to decide for themselves.

I also editted my last post. read it.

Edit: to above poster- yah, it's not much help if it won't even tell whether it's a disadvantage or not. I'm not necessarily concerned about the numbers.

 

[Kiwikomix]

On the Yoshi boards, we have Wario listed as a 7:3 matchup despite the fact that Yoshi has a grab infinite - usmash release on Wario. This is because both characters are air-based rather than ground-based, so it's often difficult to actually get Wario in a grab.
On the Dedede matchup, I dunno, though. Both characters are ground-based and DK's aerial game is pretty crappy, so I'm a bit lost. I assume a Dedede main would know more.
And I seem to have misunderstood the point of the thread... you just want accuracy rather than debate, which seems fine.

 

[Fogo]

On the Yoshi boards, we have Wario listed as a 7:3 matchup despite the fact that Yoshi has a grab infinite - usmash release on Wario. This is because both characters are air-based rather than ground-based, so it's often difficult to actually get Wario in a grab.
On the Dedede matchup, I dunno, though. Both characters are ground-based and DK's aerial game is pretty crappy, so I'm a bit lost. I assume a Dedede main would know more.
And I seem to have misunderstood the point of the thread... you just want accuracy rather than debate, which seems fine.

allow me to help??

what matchup are we talking about here??

 

[DanGR]

Y'all have DDD v DK listed as 70/30. Earlier, I suggested that the cutoff for advantage/big advantage be 75/25, though it's universally agreed DDD has the big advantage over DK. See the problem?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth's match-ups

For Marth, check the Weekly Match-up index, Emblem Lord is a great source, but some of the stuff he said is outdated.

For example, he and the rest of the Marth board users have positively concluded that MK>Marth, specifically because MK's longer dtilt (the match-up thread went more in depth in explaining why this is enough to warrant a disadvantage).

The weekly match-up thread is on the other hand, current.

 

[Gindler]

Is green supposed to say luigi as something comical? or was it seriously an error?

 

[Mmac]

Is green supposed to say luigi as something comical? or was it seriously an error?

It's a rip-off of the Character Rankings Thread

Ankoku might sue if he found out >_>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is a great thread imo but I think the chart is still a little bit small

I also looked into some of the matchup threads and I'm not convinced by some of them. I mean, no offence to EL but Marth's match-up thread contains only one bad match-up (Snake) and gives a 5:5 chance vs Metakight, which is just too hard to believe. I'm also not convinced by Marth = R.O.B but whathever...

 

[Adapt]

I kinda forgot about sending you the chart I started Dan, should I send it over email or something? (it's an excel file)
I have been busy unlocking stuff on mario kart that I just bought last friday

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is a great thread imo but I think the chart is still a little bit small

I also looked into some of the matchup threads and I'm not convinced by some of them. I mean, no offence to EL but Marth's match-up thread contains only one bad match-up (Snake) and gives a 5:5 chance vs Metakight, which is just too hard to believe. I'm also not convinced by Marth = R.O.B but whathever...

As I pointed out, that's outdated.

That said, the Marth boards tend to be extremely analytical in their match-up analysis (check the MK debate for example, people figured out EXACTLY what it needed to be even, and when it was discovered that that Marth didn't have that one needed advantage (by a pixel no less), they concluded the match-up was 60-40). Really, I trust the Marth board's analysis a great deal more then just any other character board, it seems to be the place where main biases affect results the least.

As a random note, you'll notice that the vast majority of Marth match-ups are really close, he has very few large advantages. He's a strong character, but he doesn't really have much in the way of overwhelming advantages.

 

[zippo074]

It would be a lot more simple that way. Good idea.

 

[DanGR]

Is green supposed to say luigi as something comical? or was it seriously an error?

Believe it or not, that was a mistake. I must have subconsciously typed it after reading Ankoku's results thread so many times. ._.

This is a great thread imo but I think the chart is still a little bit small

Zamz is working on a wonderful looking chart right now that'll be much nicer looking and bigger!

I also looked into some of the matchup threads and I'm not convinced by some of them. I mean, no offence to EL but Marth's match-up thread contains only one bad match-up (Snake) and gives a 5:5 chance vs Metakight, which is just too hard to believe. I'm also not convinced by Marth = R.O.B but whathever...

This is why I'm taking the matchups from both matchup threads-to eliminate the possibility of bias. As for the Marth matchup thread that EL put together, it wasn't just his thoughts. And he didn't have any bias. Back when the Olimar boards were discussing the Marth matchup, he stated that he thought the matchup went to Marth, at least 65:35, if not more. Look at what he put down. He acknowledged the Marth communities thoughts as well as his own.

I kinda forgot about sending you the chart I started Dan, should I send it over email or something? (it's an excel file)
I have been busy unlocking stuff on mario kart that I just bought last friday

I'll send you my email in a pm. It's not too late to the least. I'll appreciate any data you've compiled. And of course credit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is why I'm taking the matchups from both matchup threads-to eliminate the possibility of bias. As for the Marth matchup thread that EL put together, it wasn't just his thoughts. And he didn't have any bias. Back when the Olimar boards were discussing the Marth matchup, he stated that he thought the matchup went to Marth, at least 65:35, if not more. Look at what he put down. He acknowledged the Marth communities thoughts as well as his own.

Still, the newer match-up threads are more updated, because we have found new info on various match-ups, and others we just explored to the enth detail. With Emblem Lord always being around to tell us where we messed up of course.

I think the MK match-up is the most significant.

 

[gallax]

snake and lucas= pika

tink has a slight advantage on pika

pika>>>>>>>>>fox

 

[adumbrodeus]

snake and lucas= pika

tink has a slight advantage on pika

pika>>>>>>>>>fox

Character specific boards references, this isn't a debate topic.

btw, pike>snake

 

[Tristan_win]

As much I like the larger chart I really dislike the design.

It looks childish...Please just make the old chart bigger or get a new design preferably one that looks more like the melee chart.

 

[Nestec]

No, no, I love it! It's so...simple.

So, DanGR, is the Advantage/Large Advantage break-off point gonna be 75/25, like you suggested?

 

[Timbers]

As much I like the larger chart I really dislike the design.

It looks childish...Please just make the old chart bigger or get a new design preferably one that looks more like the melee chart.

Why are people concerned on how the chart looks? lol

As long as it's legible I don't see a problem with it. Maybe add character sprites next to the names to improve visual deduction...but that's about it. x_x

It's coming along well so far. Hopefully the character boards who haven't discussed matchups will be prompted to do so after this thread was made.