Character Board Specific Matchup Chart Project (Last Update: 12/21)- Not a tier list!

[Mr. Escalator]

It does look childish
I would prefer the blocks to just be the color. No symbols, just colors.
But thats just me.

and about time!

 

[LuigiKing]

Umm... over at the Luigi boards we have a matchup thread... but no one pays attention to us

 

[zamz]

True, the symbols do look childish. I think it would look a lot better with just blocks of colors. But, as long as it's readable, it shouldn't matter.

As for sprites by each character's name, those will be coming soon.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I might recomend putting the nams on the bottom and right side of the chart again so that characters later in the alphabet can be read too.

also... PT? Zelda/Shiek?

 

[3GOD]

I might recomend putting the nams on the bottom and right side of the chart again so that characters later in the alphabet can be read too.

also... PT? Zelda/Shiek?

I agree about the names on the bottom - right side is a little unnecessary.

Also, Pokemon Trainer should definitely be one character and not 3 individual characters. It's pretty much impossible to use one pokemon exclusively.

I personally think Shiek/Zelda should either have 1 position (Sheik/Zelda) or 3 positions (Sheik, Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda).

Personally, I like the "childish" look. I think the symbols make it easier to read.

 

[Baky]

I'm thinking the reason there are so many blanks is because your waiting for an agreement between boards.

Like....

You want both the Jigglypuff board and Luigi board to have an agreement about their matchup rather than considering one board more credible.

but if this isnt the case, Lucario has a few blanks to fill.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Also, Pokemon Trainer should definitely be one character and not 3 individual characters. It's pretty much impossible to use one pokemon exclusively.

It's far more useful for pokemon trainer mains to know what pokemon are prefered and what pokemon are to be avoided in a given match-up, because they all play differently.

They get one tier list position, but 3 match-up chart positions.

 

[Morrigan]

Yep, the solid colors gives the chart a professional look.
It can be changed at anytime so it's not a big deal anyway.

 

[Niko_K]

Peach vs DeDeDe = Yellow
Peach vs Marth = Red
Peach vs Metaknight = Red
Peach vs GaW = Yellow
Peach vs Snake = Red


Hope this helps. It's all taken from the Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion thread.

 

[Clevr]

Why the ugly color scheme and ugly symbols? I don't like the appearance of this new list (everything besides the symbols look fine), but I do like the way it's being calculated.

 

[3GOD]

It's far more useful for pokemon trainer mains to know what pokemon are prefered and what pokemon are to be avoided in a given match-up, because they all play differently.

They get one tier list position, but 3 match-up chart positions.

Yeah this makes sense, but I'm wanting to use a chart like this in order to mathematically model a tier list. I guess I'll just take the individual pokemon and average their match-ups for the PT character on my chart.

 

[stratele]

to be honest I think a matchup thing is stupid, like tiers.

Its down to the player, not the character you are using.

BUT, I main toon link, and I have found olimars to be problematic....

Still not convinsed

 

[Winston]

to be honest I think a matchup thing is stupid, like tiers.

Its down to the player, not the character you are using.

BUT, I main toon link, and I have found olimars to be problematic....

Still not convinsed

To be honest I think denying the existence of variation between 35 unique characters that have completely different abilities and attributes is stupid.

Player skill obviously matters hugely. That doesn't change the validity of matchup advantages and tiers one bit.

 

[DanGR]

No, no, I love it! It's so...simple.

So, DanGR, is the Advantage/Large Advantage break-off point gonna be 75/25, like you suggested?

I'm still having problems with this. I'd like more people to give their thoughts on it. In the Olimar boards, CF v Olimar is listed as 70/30. In the CF boards, it's listed as a big disadvantage. It's widely considered that it's a big advantage for Olimar, though 70/30 wouldn't be counted as a big advantage with this new system I'd like to adopt. This same thing is happening with the DDD v DK matchup. It's listed as 70/30, but the the new system would deem that a regular advantage. See the problem guys?

Why are people concerned on how the chart looks? lol

As long as it's legible I don't see a problem with it. Maybe add character sprites next to the names to improve visual deduction...but that's about it. x_x

It's coming along well so far. Hopefully the character boards who haven't discussed matchups will be prompted to do so after this thread was made.

I totally agree, but I'll change anything a majority of the smash community agrees with. I'm more concerned about its accuracy, not how childish it looks.

Umm... over at the Luigi boards we have a matchup thread... but no one pays attention to us

Have the link? I'll be glad to add the data from the thread if you've got a link to it.

Edit: Is this the thread?-http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824
It doesn't post odds, just difficulty rankings. Is 5/10 even? 6/10 disadvantage? 9.5/10 big disadvantage?

I agree about the names on the bottom - right side is a little unnecessary.

Also, Pokemon Trainer should definitely be one character and not 3 individual characters. It's pretty much impossible to use one pokemon exclusively.

I personally think Shiek/Zelda should either have 1 position (Sheik/Zelda) or 3 positions (Sheik, Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda).

Personally, I like the "childish" look. I think the symbols make it easier to read.

I do agree that Sheik/Zelda should be counted separate from Zelda or Sheik. That would make a great addition. The problem we run into is that most character boards don't address both characters put together. Most people look at the specific characters and them not used as a team. :/

I won't include PT though. PT users can look at each individual matchup just like they do with their own chart in the PT boards. I feel I've got solid reasoning here. Any disagree?

I'm thinking the reason there are so many blanks is because your waiting for an agreement between boards.

Like....

You want both the Jigglypuff board and Luigi board to have an agreement about their matchup rather than considering one board more credible.

but if this isnt the case, Lucario has a few blanks to fill.

Exactly. also, many character boards with matchup threads either haven't reviewed a certain character or don't agree with the other character's boards. I think I explained this in the OP. I'll check it again.

Peach vs DeDeDe = Yellow
Peach vs Marth = Red
Peach vs Metaknight = Red
Peach vs GaW = Yellow
Peach vs Snake = Red

Hope this helps. It's all taken from the Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion thread.

Thanks. I think I've included this matchup thread in the sources part of the OP. I'll check again.

In order to be included in the chart, it needs to be verified by the other character board's matchup thread.

To everyone-

I've decided to edit the chart to do the following:
-take away symbols and add colors
-add shiek/zelda

These won't take effect immediately though. They will the next time I update it-which will probably be tomorrow.

Any other comments or suggestions?

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Glad to see you working hard on this!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I do agree that Sheik/Zelda should be counted separate from Zelda or Sheik. That would make a great addition. The problem we run into is that most character boards don't address both characters put together. Most people look at the specific characters and them not used as a team. :/

The sheik boards do, but they're pretty much alone on this, gotta get the other boards to do this as well.

Probably will happen as using both becomes more popular... (I was doing it during the melee days! ahead of the curve ftw!)

In order to be included in the chart, it needs to be verified by the other character board's matchup thread.

To everyone-

I've decided to edit the chart to do the following:
-take away symbols and add colors
-add shiek/zelda

These won't take effect immediately though. They will the next time I update it-which will probably be tomorrow.

Any other comments or suggestions?

nice, a responsive match-up thread! It's a miracle!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda boards have quite a few dual mainers... like myself.... we've got some treads I could direct you to.

and yes...t he responsiveness without 20 questions is wonderfull

 

[Mmac]

Here's the rundown on Yoshi's Matchups to other people Matchup threads

Both DK and Yoshi agree on 4:6 DK (DK's is a bit outdated though)
Both Fox and Yoshi agree on a 5:5 Matchup
Both Kirby and Yoshi agree on a 5:5 Matchup
Both Mario and Yoshi agree on a 4.5:5.5 Matchup (Mario's came to discuss it)
Both Ivysaur and Yoshi agree on a 5.5:4.5 Matchup
-- However, they say that Squirtle is an advantage, while Charizard is a disadvantage, and we say vice versa
Both Wario and Yoshi agree on a 6.5:3.5 Matchup

Now, the Matchup's with minor disagreement

-We have Falco listed as a 3:7 disadvantage. Falco just say they have an advantage. Though I think they'll agree on that...
-We have Dedede as 4:6, they have 3:7.
- We have Zelda listed as 3.5:6.5. She has 3:7.

and now for major disagreements

-We have Falcon listed as a 6.5 Advantage, Falcon has us listed as their "1 of their 2" Advantages....
-Sheik has us listed as a 7:3 while we say is 5:5. Both of us are unsure of the matchup.
- We have Ice Climbers as a 6:4 Advantage because of extremely easy seperation game, and an even easier edgeguarding game. They have us listed as a 9:1 Advantage O_O
- We have Jigglypuff as a 3:7 Advantage due to a better Airgame, and is easy to hit and attack due to her poor vertical airspeed. Jigglypuff has Yoshi as a 3:7 Advantage due to a better Airgame, and can gimp easily because of no 3rd jump. Someone is lying >_>

Everyone else hasn't discussed Yoshi yet

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem is, that you barely find match-up threads, which give same "rating" to both characters. In Wolf's case (I'll list some agreed match-ups) he has 60:40 advantage vs Kirby on the Wolf boards and Kirby has the same advantage on the Kirby boards. I don't think, that you can complete the chart that way...

Well here are some of Wolfs match-ups (these one's are agreed, so we can assume them to be right):

G&W: 40:60
Zelda: ~40/60
Marth: 40:60
Falco: either 40:60 (wolf boards) or 30:70 (falco board). The latter is more likely
Yoshi: advantage (70:30 according to wolfs board, 60:40 sais Yoshi natch-up thread)
D3: 40:60
Tl: 40:60
Falcon: 60:40
Ganondorf: 80:20
Zamus: 50:50
Sheik: 40:60

According to the wolf match-up thread only (I have little trust in this one, since some match-ups look just wrong. Fox should be 50:50, while IC's and Diddy should be 60:40 imo):

Mario: 50:50
Link: 60:40
Samus: 70:30
Fox: 60:40
Luigi: 60:40
Metaknight: 30:70
Ike: 60:40
Snake: 50:50
Peach: 50:50
IC's: 50:50
Diddy Kong: 50:50
Lucario: 50:50
Ness: 50:50
Sonic: 50:50
Bowser: 70:30
Jiggs: 60:40
Lucas: 50:50



All other match-ups are unclear


@DanGR; 75-25 should be a large disatvantage. If you consider values from 45-55 to 55-45 to be neutral, then 60-70 should be a "normal" advantage. Everything above that is a major advantage

 

[DanGR]

repsonses in green

Here's the rundown on Yoshi's Matchups to other people Matchup threads

Both DK and Yoshi agree on 4:6 DK (DK's is a bit outdated though)
I've got a link to a matchup thread. I think the one you're talking about is indeed very outdated. Is this the one?- http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154971
Both Fox and Yoshi agree on a 5:5 Matchup
I couldn't find the thread where this is mentioned. Could you direct me?
Both Kirby and Yoshi agree on a 5:5 Matchup
ok
Both Mario and Yoshi agree on a 4.5:5.5 Matchup (Mario's came to discuss it)
ok
Both Ivysaur and Yoshi agree on a 5.5:4.5 Matchup
-- However, they say that Squirtle is an advantage, while Charizard is a disadvantage, and we say vice versa
ok
Both Wario and Yoshi agree on a 6.5:3.5 Matchup
ok

Now, the Matchup's with minor disagreement

-We have Falco listed as a 3:7 disadvantage. Falco just say they have an advantage. Though I think they'll agree on that...
I'll list it at a disadvantage until you both agree that it's a big I'll list it as a disadvantage. Either way, it's correct how I'll list it.
-We have Dedede as 4:6, they have 3:7.
disadvantage
- We have Zelda listed as 3.5:6.5. She has 3:7.
disadvantage

and now for major disagreements

-We have Falcon listed as a 6.5 Advantage, Falcon has us listed as their "1 of their 2" Advantages....
-Sheik has us listed as a 7:3 while we say is 5:5. Both of us are unsure of the matchup.
- We have Ice Climbers as a 6:4 Advantage because of extremely easy seperation game, and an even easier edgeguarding game. They have us listed as a 9:1 Advantage O_O
- We have Jigglypuff as a 3:7 Advantage due to a better Airgame, and is easy to hit and attack due to her poor vertical airspeed. Jigglypuff has Yoshi as a 3:7 Advantage due to a better Airgame, and can gimp easily because of no 3rd jump. Someone is lying >_>
I made this thread a while ago: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186563 I won't include its data until more peeps talk in it. It's not very active yet. It has yoshi listed as even. :/

Everyone else hasn't discussed Yoshi yet
errr, I guess I won't change these matchups then.

The problem is, that you barely find match-up threads, which give same "rating" to both characters. In Wolf's case (I'll list some agreed match-ups) he has 60:40 advantage vs Kirby on the Wolf boards and Kirby has the same advantage on the Kirby boards. I don't think, that you can complete the chart that way...

well, I guess those matchups won't be filled in, will they? In the end, it'll all get figured out.

Well here are some of Wolfs match-ups (these one's are agreed, so we can assume them to be right):

G&W: 40:60
Zelda: ~40/60
Marth: 40:60
Falco: either 40:60 (wolf boards) or 30:70 (falco board). The latter is more likely
Yoshi: advantage (70:30 according to wolfs board, 60:40 sais Yoshi natch-up thread)
D3: 40:60
Tl: 40:60
Falcon: 60:40
Ganondorf: 80:20
Zamus: 50:50
Sheik: 40:60

wait, are you saying that both character boards agree on these matchups^?...Or that the wolf board agrees on these. Could you link the thread/s

According to the wolf match-up thread only (I have little trust in this one, since some match-ups look just wrong. Fox should be 50:50, while IC's and Diddy should be 60:40 imo):

Mario: 50:50
Link: 60:40
Samus: 70:30
Fox: 60:40
Luigi: 60:40
Metaknight: 30:70
Ike: 60:40
Snake: 50:50
Peach: 50:50
IC's: 50:50
Diddy Kong: 50:50
Lucario: 50:50
Ness: 50:50
Sonic: 50:50
Bowser: 70:30
Jiggs: 60:40
Lucas: 50:50



All other match-ups are unclear

If it looks very inaccurate, I won't include it. Don't worry.


@DanGR; 75-25 should be a large disatvantage. If you consider values from 45-55 to 55-45 to be neutral, then 60-70 should be a "normal" advantage. Everything above that is a major advantage

thanks for the input. I'd still like more discussion about this topic. Right now I'm leaning torwards changing it to 75/25+=big disadvantage. Anyone else have thoughst?

 

[Mmac]

FoxPart - http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186742
Jigglypuff - I was talking about some other Matchup Thread that was older than your's. I didn't see that one. :S

And now I can't find that thread >_<

 

[Snail]

repsonses in green

I think 70/30 is enough of a disadvantage to call it "big". :/ There aren't really any bigger disadvantages out there, except perhaps things like D3 vs Bowser. :/

45/55 is a disadvantage that can easily be overcome while 70/30 is nearly impossible to win.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@DanGR

This is the link to the thread, that contains Wolf's match-ups: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164483

However, it's not too reliable, as it doesn't contain any explanations, just numbers

wait, are you saying that both character boards agree on these matchups^?...Or that the wolf board agrees on these. Could you link the thread/s


Yes. These are the match-ups are agreed upon by both boards. The other ones, that are only listed in Wolf's matchup thread but not in the one of the other character, are in the lower part of my post (Mario-Lucas).

 

[DanGR]

thank you Gheb and Mmac- I've got a whole lot to add now. Look at post 2. lol

 

[DMG]

I think that basically anything 70-30 or greater is a large advantage. 65-35 and 60-40 are small advantages. 45-55, 50-50, and 55-45 are neutral.

I also think it would be easier if we got the two boards to agree on the matchup type (Neutral, Small advantage, Large advantage) and then we pick numbers after that.

If they already agreed on the numbers, then great we can go ahead and fill that sucker out.

If they agree on the matchup type, but have minor quarrels over the numbers, then we could just add the respective colors to the chart and update the numbers later when they reach a compromise.

If they completely disagree on who is winning/losing, then we don't add anything until they reach a consensus.

 

[DanGR]

I totally agree dr.mario guy. I'm still gathering opinions on what defines a big advantage though.

everyone-updated chart. Hows yous likes?

 

[Adapt]

I likes the new updated chart much more than the past two. Awesome work

 

[Mmac]

You got Wolf's and Yoshi's Matchups Mixed up.

Also I think it would help if you put the characters names on the bottom too so that it will be easier to read the matchups for those on the bottom

Edit: You also forgot Yoshi's advantage against Olimar

 

[Tristan_win]

^_^ Thank you for the new color system

I have no complaints

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

From Lucario weekly matchup discussion:

GREEN: Link, Samus, Zss, Fox

YELLOW: Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Pikachu

RED: Marth

 

[DanGR]

You got Wolf's and Yoshi's Matchups Mixed up.

Also I think it would help if you put the characters names on the bottom too so that it will be easier to read the matchups for those on the bottom

Edit: You also forgot Yoshi's advantage against Olimar

fixed. ^_^

From Lucario weekly matchup discussion:

GREEN: Link, Samus, Zss, Fox

YELLOW: Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Pikachu

RED: Marth

Thanks for the info, but I've acknowledged this data already. I'm now waiting for the matchup threads to agree with each other.

I've added Kirby=Lucario to my list of future updates.

Everyone-Anything else I can change or make nicer looking?

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Hmm, this is nice, but i liked the other better. This is going to look ridiculous when completed

 

[DMG]

Red for big disadvantage, Orange for small disadvantage, Yellow for neutral, Green for small advantage, and Blue for big advantage. It's kind of like the order of color wavelengths, but reversed.

Most people would associate Red with bad, Orange with bad but not as bad as Red, Yellow as caution/even, Green as good, and Blue... well Blue is debatable, but I would leave it.

What I'm trying to say is that I think Red seems to suit large disadvantage better than Purple does, and Orange could take Red's current place at small disadvantage too.

 

[DanGR]

Hmm, this is nice, but i liked the other better. This is going to look ridiculous when completed

I'll order the characters based on how good their matchups are when the chart is almost completed. That way, there won't be so many different colors lingering around all over the place. It'll look sort of similar to phanna's chart that way. It won't be confusing. I promise.

Red for big disadvantage, Orange for small disadvantage, Yellow for neutral, Green for small advantage, and Blue for big advantage. It's kind of like the order of color wavelengths, but reversed.

Most people would associate Red with bad, Orange with bad but not as bad as Red, Yellow as caution/even, Green as good, and Blue... well Blue is debatable, but I would leave it.

What I'm trying to say is that I think Red seems to suit large disadvantage better than Purple does, and Orange could take Red's current place at small disadvantage too.

err...I think I'll take a poll. Some people say that orange strains their eyes and some say it looks better than red-advantage and purple-big disadvantage. You're with the latter. I'll figure it out eventually.

 

[cutter]

G&W matchup discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763

We are going at a slow pace, but we're kinda trying to get more indepth discussion going. Also note that we started with the hardest matchups first and have worked our way down in decreasing difficulty.

Here's what we got in a nutshell so far:

G&W < Toon Link (6/4)
G&W = MK
G&W = Snake
G&W = Marth
G&W = Donkey Kong
G&W = Diddy Kong
G&W > Olimar (6/4)

 

[DMG]

err...I think I'll take a poll. Some people say that orange strains their eyes and some say it looks better than red-advantage and purple-big disadvantage. You're with the latter. I'll figure it out eventually.

Poll sounds fine.

There's got to be more Wario matchups that are agreed on from both sides than this, but I'm too lazy to go check the other boards XD

 

[Zankoku]

If you use red-through-blue, it'll be the same as Brawl Wifi's latency indicator, lol.

 

[cutter]

I really don't care as long as the chart is readable

 

[deepseadiva]

I like this project quite a lot - though I'm wondering if all the boards have a Weekly Match-up thread...

I'll order the characters based on how good their matchups are when the chart is almost completed. That way, there won't be so many different colors lingering around all over the place. It'll look sort of similar to phanna's chart that way. It won't be confusing. I promise.

If that's how the completed chart is going look like, the color spectrum idea would make it look really nice. I Vote: Red=Bad, Blue=Great.

 

[neoREgen]

The only confusing thing for me was that I innately think Red is the biggest disadvantage.
It'd be weird if you got the color scale out of order though. I'm not sure- you may want to use orange, or you may want to give purple the position of "big advantage."
It's cool you're trying to do this as objectively as possible. Seems like something that could easily become a mess.