COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Me_Aludes]

Did we ever figure out if we could still DI down into wall techs like in melee? That seems far more important then making the current teching window easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq2S4_EkN1w

Some stuff about SDI (most of you probably already know this):
For each frame of hitlag, smashing the control stick in one of the eight cardinal directions will "teleport" you a small distance in that direction.

You cannot SDI in the same direction twice in only two frames, because it'll only see you pressing left and then holding it for the second frame. You have to either SDI in a different direction on the next frame or spend one frame with the control stick in neutral before SDIing in that direction again.

SDI rules unique to Brawl:
You cannot SDI into a wall collision. This was done a lot in Smash 64 to make fatal attacks simply wallbounce you, and a lot in Melee to walltech said fatal attacks. In Brawl, no matter how much you SDI into a wall, if the attack had knockback that sends you away from it, you won't bounce off.

When you are hit while on the ground, you cannot SDI down, even if you leave the ground later during the hitlag using SDI.

That said, I just did this because I wanted to see if I could actually manage enough SDI to pull it off, lol.

This.

10youmustrecover

 

[KayJay]

A code that let's you give 2 tech windows would let you escape from jab locks and lazer locks:
The first window would be the current 1 where you have to tech right before landing.
The second window would be right before you hit the ground the second time (after you got slamed on the ground)

 

[Alopex]

I not a nub brawl or brawl+ player, I kno how to tech consistently. This code is more needed than the short hop codes dash speed css double hexor codes you guys like so much. Teching in brawl+ doesnt feel as repsonsive as melee's or 64 or normal brawl. Some moves are toooo difficult to tech and with the the jab, lazer locks we need something to counter.

How has teching in Brawl+ changed from Brawl? Feels the same to me.

Which moves are too difficult to tech? I'm curious.

After practicing teching G&W's Dthrow for so long, nothing really feels difficult to tech anymore. What are the moves you're thinking off?

A faster techroll is something I could get behind, since I think tech chasing is a tad on the easy side at the moment. But the actual teching window is something I'm fine with.

We're going to remove the jab/laser/icicle locks (can we start abbreviating this? like... JLI Lock? Or... Bounce Lock?), so there won't be a need to "counter" them, because they'll be gone.


Do you tech with the L/R button? Cause if you do, that's probably why it feels less responsive to you. In 64, the button wasn't analog. In Melee the button only had to be pressed halfway. But in Brawl, it's analog and has to be pressed the whole way. That's ****e. Try using X/Y as your shield button and tech with that. Guaranteed to feel more responsive and be more accurate.
Really, I think you'll find the teching window just fine that way. Those shoulder buttons are crap in Brawl.

 

[Starscream]

What were the recommended values for the shield stun code again? Do they work just fine with the 6 line version?

And I take back anything I said about increased fast fall not being necessary. 1.25 gravity with 1.1 fast fall is simply amazing.

 

[Team Giza]

This.

10youmustrecover

Lets make it so you can then. Seems much more important then making a larger tech window. Perhaps even more important than getting get of locks.

 

[Revven]

How has teching in Brawl+ changed from Brawl? Feels the same to me.

Which moves are too difficult to tech? I'm curious.

Sheik's Ftilt is ridiculously hard to tech, but, then again maybe I wasn't used to the hitstun change AND delay may have been getting in the way of my teching but, the teching window is like "Press R/L 10 seconds BEFORE you fall onto the ground!" Versus Melee and Smash 64's windows "Press R/L RIGHT as you hit the ground!" It doesn't make any sense to me with the window, I hate it, it's terrible, I don't know how you can accept something so dumb. Teching has ALWAYS been easy, WHY should we keep it so different from the past two Smash games?...


But, honestly, we need to fix Sheik's Ftilt, I can't stress it enough. It's hard to tech, it's harder to escape BECAUSE of hitstun, because all Sheik has to do is follow your DI above 50% and keep you in it until she can Usmash or until the Ftilt won't keep you close to her anymore. I'm gonna have to show you guys what leaf was able to do to me with it, it's ridiculously hard to escape, if even impossible.

 

[Me_Aludes]

Sheik's Ftilt is ridiculously hard to tech, but, then again maybe I wasn't used to the hitstun change AND delay may have been getting in the way of my teching but, the teching window is like "Press R/L 10 seconds BEFORE you fall onto the ground!" Versus Melee and Smash 64's windows "Press R/L RIGHT as you hit the ground!" It doesn't make any sense to me with the window, I hate it, it's terrible, I don't know how you can accept something so dumb. Teching has ALWAYS been easy, WHY should we keep it so different from the past two Smash games?...


But, honestly, we need to fix Sheik's Ftilt, I can't stress it enough. It's hard to tech, it's harder to escape BECAUSE of hitstun, because all Sheik has to do is follow your DI above 50% and keep you in it until she can Usmash or until the Ftilt won't keep you close to her anymore. I'm gonna have to show you guys what leaf was able to do to me with it, it's ridiculously hard to escape, if even impossible.

Sheik is ridiculously good with hitstun + down. grav. Every single tilt combo into any of the Sheik moves at low %. Every tilt combo into any aerial at ANY %. If your opponent doesn't tech, you can F-Tilt into D-Tilt and repeat, and because of move decay you can do it until 100%+, but this is char dependent. Even more, if they tech, Sheik's tech-chasing is also really, really good. D-Throw comboes into any aerial, U-throw too. More: At really low % or if your f-air is decayed, you can F-air>F-tilt>D-tilt>F-air>F-tilt>whatever if they don't DI away, and if they do just use F-tilt instead of D-tilt and they won't go away, or run> dash attack or U-smash. Well, and you can always F-tilt>F-tilt>F-tilt>F-tilt...

The only char i'm having trouble with Sheik is Captain Falcon, but only because everything he does comboes into the knee -.-'

 

[shanus]

I already PMed spunit about it. I agree that teching is something stupidly hard. Its basically an arbitrary tech skill atm due to its difficulty. Melees window was forgiving yet it didn't detract from its game play.

I hope spunit makes the code

teching is fine. seriously, its fine

 

[KayJay]

Sheik's Ftilt is ridiculously hard to tech, but, then again maybe I wasn't used to the hitstun change AND delay may have been getting in the way of my teching but, the teching window is like "Press R/L 10 seconds BEFORE you fall onto the ground!" Versus Melee and Smash 64's windows "Press R/L RIGHT as you hit the ground!" It doesn't make any sense to me with the window, I hate it, it's terrible, I don't know how you can accept something so dumb. Teching has ALWAYS been easy, WHY should we keep it so different from the past two Smash games?...

This is FALSE, i bet you play with the gc controller where the shoulder buttons aren't digital. The Tech window is the same as Melee, the difference is that Brawl has no analog sheilds, this making you tech / shield / dodge only when the shoulder buttons are pressed down to the end.
Play with CC or do tech on Z button on GC Pad, the techwindow is not the problem, the analog shoulder buttons are.
I personally find teching really easy in Brawl, I have digital shoulder Buttons. I almost always success groundteching in any situation.

 

[kupo15]

Well, that was the whole point of the discussion.

Ness and Lucas are said to be write protected as well.

Yet I proved that they are indeed affected by the No ASL code. You missed the video I posted, probably, so here you go: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2hq5jtMre8g

As you can see, the apparently write protected Mother Boys are No ASL'ing. But as you can also see, it does seem to affect them differently than the rest of the cast.

So that's the mystery. If Ness and Lucas ARE write protected, why/how was I able to pull ANY of that off? There's something going on and whatever it is might help us also make the No ASL apply to Lucario, because he actually never worked. It might also help us fix the issue with Diddy's UpB.




Really? You guys find teching difficult?

I've never had a problem with teching in Brawl+ so far. I can still tech out of G&W's Dthrow consistently, ground tech and wall tech consistently... I don't see what's difficult about it. And that's with 1 buffer.

Maybe you guys just need to spend some time learning the timing. It's a piece of cake after that...

Granted, I don't have any gravity settings turned on. But I was seeing some people complain before the gravity codes by paprika came out, so I don't think that's the problem.

The teching window feels very adequate to me.

That code is not really needed, in my opinion. Especially not if it takes up any more than 6 lines...

EDIT: I'm also curious. Are you guys saying teching is unforgiving in Brawl+ or in Brawl?
Because if you say the latter, I'm going to have to call you out on it, because high level Brawl players tech all the time without miss.
If you say the former, then I'll say "Elaborate, please".

Brawl+

I not a nub brawl or brawl+ player, I kno how to tech consistently. This code is more needed than the short hop codes dash speed css double hexor codes you guys like so much. Teching in brawl+ doesnt feel as repsonsive as melee's or 64 or normal brawl. Some moves are toooo difficult to tech and with the the jab, lazer locks we need something to counter.

If we could get a better tech and techroll it would be better imo.

teching is fine. seriously, its fine

No teching is not fine. I know how to tech and I tech consistently but its a chore to do. The game needs SOME sort of help other than what you have already. Teching itself should not be this hard. Even though I adjusted to it I still miss a lot of techs and the timing is just too hard and I don't know how you guys don't see that. Its hard enough to be called an arbitrary tech (not in the uses sense) skill atm. I didn't want to believe it until I took a step back and realized it was a problem. Increasing the window will aid in techs and it won't take away from the game because teching in melee was far better than brawl and it added a lot to the game.

And teching atm will definitely push a lot of people away when they first play the game at a tourney or whatever when they are constantly being bounced around the stage because of how ridiculously precise you have to be.

This is FALSE, i bet you play with the gc controller where the shoulder buttons aren't digital. The Tech window is the same as Melee, the difference is that Brawl has no analog sheilds, this making you tech / shield / dodge only when the shoulder buttons are pressed down to the end.
Play with CC or do tech on Z button on GC Pad, the techwindow is not the problem, the analog shoulder buttons are.
I personally find teching really easy in Brawl, I have digital shoulder Buttons. I almost always success groundteching in any situation.

No way is teching the same as in melee. I played it for a little while after brawl+ and teching was so good. Don't assume we have a hard time doing it when we took out the springs in our controller

 

[shanus]

Brawl+




No teching is not fine. I know how to tech and I tech consistently but its a chore to do. The game needs SOME sort of help other than what you have already. Teching itself should not be this hard. Even though I adjusted to it I still miss a lot of techs and the timing is just too hard and I don't know how you guys don't see that. Its hard enough to be called an arbitrary tech (not in the uses sense) skill atm. I didn't want to believe it until I took a step back and realized it was a problem. Increasing the window will aid in techs and it won't take away from the game because teching in melee was far better than brawl and it added a lot to the game.

And teching atm will definitely push a lot of people away when they first play the game at a tourney or whatever when they are constantly being bounced around the stage because of how ridiculously precise you have to be.



No way is teching the same as in melee. I played it for a little while after brawl+ and teching was so good. Don't assume we have a hard time doing it when we took out the springs in our controller

I completely disagree. I miss a few techs once in a while, but it isn't that hard. I prefer a narrow window rather than ZzZzZzZ tech window.

 

[kupo15]

I completely disagree. I miss a few techs once in a while, but it isn't that hard. I prefer a narrow window rather than ZzZzZzZ tech window.

The zzzz teching window does not take away from the game. And you disagree that the newcomers won't be frustrated with such a hard window that it might shun them away? Imagine your first brawl+ experience being bounced across the stage "even though you know how to tech"

 

[KayJay]

Sorry kupo I really find teching exactly the same as Melee, it's exactly the same feeling after i played with digital shoulders.
It's not hard and not super noobish easy, it's just normal easy to perform.

 

[shanus]

The zzzz teching window does not take away from the game. And you disagree that the newcomers won't be frustrated with such a hard window that it might shun them away? Imagine your first brawl+ experience being bounced across the stage "even though you know how to tech"

No I think its fine as I have introduced several of my friends to it and they picked it up no problem. Some even faster than I did previously haha.

 

[kupo15]

Sorry kupo I really find teching exactly the same as Melee, it's exactly the same feeling after i played with digital shoulders.
It's not hard and not super noobish easy, it's just normal easy to perform.

Have you played melee recently? I tap the shoulder buttons at a time where brawl would consider it a missed tech and I still tech o_O

And we are not talking about digital vs analog. I am not saying, "well it you press the button through the analog, by the time it clicks it feels like melees timing" no. I'm talking about the moment you actually initiate the tech and I don't care how you go about doing that.

 

[shanus]

Have you played melee recently? I tap the shoulder buttons at a time where brawl would consider it a missed tech and I still tech o_O

And we are not talking about digital vs analog. I am not saying, "well it you press the button through the analog, by the time it clicks it feels like melees timing" no. I'm talking about the moment you actually initiate the tech and I don't care how you go about doing that.

I truly think we should leave the teching window alone. I haven't been able to really read through the past couple pages of stuff in the past day or so. Any progress on air speed or momentum?

 

[Revven]

Why don't we just see if increasing the tech window changes anything or makes anything better BEFORE saying not to try it out at least?

 

[shanus]

Why don't we just see if increasing the tech window changes anything or makes anything better BEFORE saying not to try it out at least?

I'm thinking why bother wasting coders time, line space (even though itd prolly be like 2-5 lines), and why try and fix what ain't broke

 

[KayJay]

Brawl+ was ment to be more competitive, and with the current window i tech like 95 out of 100 groundslams, sorry it's **** easy to tech, and increasing the window just makes it more newbe friendly, if I want that i play VB.
You can vote for such a code but only after the important codes are done.

 

[maticMan94]

You could increase the frames in the buffer code to possibly help with teching. I removed the buffer code from my list yesterday and my teching immediately increased, as it should if I understand how the code works correctly. But I know that buffer codes' got glitches at some of the higher values. I rarely had a problem with VB buffer system so it's no loss for me.

 

[KayJay]

Now that you mention it, i understand why Kupo or Falco complain about techin, I play with the default Brawl buffer since I don't have any issues with it, I don't have crouches after fast fall.
With VB Buffer tech is definately very easy.

 

[kupo15]

Brawl+ was ment to be more competitive, and with the current window i tech like 95 out of 100 groundslams, sorry it's **** easy to tech, and increasing the window just makes it more newbe friendly, if I want that i play VB.
You can vote for such a code but only after the important codes are done.

Oh ok so melee is a more noob friendly game than brawl+...thanks for clearing that up...

Now that you mention it, i understand why Kupo or Falco complain about techin, I play with the default Brawl buffer since I don't have any issues with it, I don't have crouches after fast fall.
With VB Buffer tech is definately very easy.

The buffer should have nothing to do with anything and shut up about saying we are complaining! Youve seen my vids and youve seen that I can tech but the point is its still a chore to do when it should not be. The ppl on these boards and their stupid assumptions....

 

[BEES]

Brawl+ was ment to be more competitive, and with the current window i tech like 95 out of 100 groundslams, sorry it's **** easy to tech, and increasing the window just makes it more newbe friendly, if I want that i play VB.
You can vote for such a code but only after the important codes are done.

Teching is harder in Brawl+ than Melee. Significantly. Surely you've noticed that.

I do whenever I'm being dash attacked by Sonic over and over.

 

[KayJay]

Oh ok so melee is a more noob friendly game than brawl+...thanks for clearing that up...

No, because i tech in Brawl+ as much as I did in Melee. They are for me equal in teching.

The buffer should have nothing to do with anything and shut up about saying we are complaining! Youve seen my vids and youve seen that I can tech but the point is its still a chore to do when it should not be. The ppl on these boards and their stupid assumptions....

If that do not cause a more difficulty in teching, then I don't know how you can't find the tech easy. I didn't mod any of my cube controller so i can't try it with your playstyle, but with the CC and especially Hori CC teching is absolutely easy for me.

 

[Finns7]

The teching can lose us brawl+ players, Playing a meta, fox, and toonlink starting out is no fun in brawl+ until you understand the game, and some prob wont even give it a chance. You say who needs em, well I say brawl+ will FAIL if we dont have people to play. playing our roomates/friends is getting boring.

Aslo we prob wont need a jablock code because of this.

 

[Shell]

Of course we don't want to go overboard with the window, but I agree that a slight increment would be useful. Is anyone working on this yet?

 

[Frogles]

Let's change the subject a little. I think we should add jumping out of shield as a character specific buff for Yoshi.

 

[Shell]

Hmmm... maybe. I've heard that Yoshi can **** with the best of them now, though. I'd wait on character specifics unless it's a pretty glaring problem, (like links recovery, MK, and sheik's ftilt). I don't really play Yoshi so I wouldn't know.

What do other Yoshi players think?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

yoshi doesn't really need it. the fact that you can't poke him through his shield balances out that weakness.

 

[leafgreen386]

@Shell: yes, someone is working on it. I forget who kupo said it was, though. Spunit? Not sure.

I agree that a larger teching window would be a good thing for brawl+. It's not necessary, but it should be short and will be an improvement.

But what we really need is to make it possible to force a wall collision through SDI. I want my ledgeteching back =(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

We need this. The No ASL code brought back edgeguarding. Now we need to bring back defending against an edgeguard.

@yoshi jumping out of shield: Maybe. We'll see about it after everything is done and over with. Like has already been said, he may not need a buff.

 

[Frogles]

Yes Yoshi does need it. His egg shield doesn't give him a big enough advantage to warrant his inability to jump out of it. His crappy grab and the increased shield stun don't really help his situation either.

 

[Finns7]

Link doesnt need that much improved recovery if you dont have on certain codes for gravity which I personally dont use. If you DI he can survive very high.

 

[BEES]

Every character seems viable at the moment, except against Shiek.

Seriously can't get the dash code to work though. Someone post a working copy of the dash speed/fastfall/short hop height code with values already in it. I must be putting the wrong value in the dash section or something.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I dont think we need to buff yoshi at all. I have never liked him in any game and i actually enjoy playin with him now. That being said he isnt the best character but he isnt the worth either. I dont think we should "fix" anyone unless their broken. Meta is the only one that comes to mind that may need a nerf. Otherwise lets leave them alone.

Except for kirby of course, lets make every move of his kill at atleast 20%

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Every character seems viable at the moment, except against Shiek.

are you serious?

 

[CyberGlitch]

I think the biggest problem with the teching window is that getting it right is more of a guessing game. If you press shield as you are hitting the ground you should tech, simple. I don't know how they got this wrong.

 

[Finns7]

A little off topic but why when I played online did it not desync when we had on ALC, also he lived in CA and I live in OH, Kupo we need to play also btw


And I dont think meta is as broken espeacially with a better tech window. His moves gay you in certain ways to where better teching would help. He doesnt need much though because he CAN be comboed to hell in brawl+ we just need a code to counter him with the ALS codes.

 

[matt4300]

T_T I hate to reiterate but I never got an answer... is there a code to make stages bigger? and if not is anyone working on one?

also CAN (i just want to know) the tiny voices in the size code be fixed? really i want to know v_v I will personally be playing with the size code from now on but i just need something done with the tiny voices or use a bigger stage code... the 3 things that i genuinely dident like about brawl when i first bought it was that toon link was 2 good, that there were no combos, and that they RUINED the melee stages! so please have a heart T_T if i could make codes i wouldnet be bothering you guys.

 

[Almas]

The former is likely impossible. The latter is probably doable, but noone is working on it.

 

[KayJay]

Yoshi's running grab is amazing now with Dash dance,
his laggy shield is not that much of a problem, all you have to do is to grounddodge (or shieldroll) before attacking/moving, to eliminate the vulnerable frames.