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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
I honestly don't care about instant edge hogs, really not that hard to do it manually when I need it anyways.
Try it with a character that actually runs fast (like Sonic lol).

Sonic litterally can't do it. His fastfall is not fast enough to let him cover the vertical distance needed to grab the ledge before he goes out of horizontal range. Hell, you can't even run off and bair people that are close to the stage anymore. There's now this huge gap where some characters are unable to hit when running off the ledge...and you think it's fine?

What do you gain from this walk off momentum code that you can't do by simply jumping instead of running off the stage? The ability to...run off one platform and end up under another one? That's it!. That's barely even useful! And yet you think it's justified to just screw with some of the characters for this tiny, insignificant benefit?!
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Dark Sonic, I was saying 20% from nothing. Not taking 20% off of it. I think that would suffice, but this still plays exceptionally well without momentum.

If we can do jumps only at 80% that would be excellent.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Dark Sonic, I was saying 20% from nothing. Not taking 20% off of it. I think that would suffice, but this still plays exceptionally well without momentum.

If we can do jumps only at 80% that would be excellent.
But why do we need the momentum to carry at all when running off platforms? Shouldn't it be only from jumps? In that way, you'd keep all of the control you normally had when running off of platforms, but also have the option of moving faster by running and jumping instead. You'd get the best of both worlds.

80% of dash speed with momentum only carrying in jumps would be perfect. Then, we'd just need some kind of deceleration function (so that the character eventually slows down to maximum airspeed) and we'd be all set.
 

CyberGlitch

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
450
Location
Wisconsin
I agree that walk off speed isn't needed, the momentum code would be better without it.

Dark Sonic has the right idea.
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Alright, just tested spunit's code using Giza's values plus jump speed. The jump speed portion definitely works, but I'm not sure the Ganon part does. I'll test the grab releases now.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Alright, just tested spunit's code using Giza's values plus jump speed. The jump speed portion definitely works, but I'm not sure the Ganon part does. I'll test the grab releases now.
Ganon works very well if you did it right you'll know lol
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Actually, upon further testing, indeed he does. However, is it me, or did his nair get sped up as well?

Edit: The tech roll is too fast at 1.5 multiplier. I suggest something lower, like 1.2 perhaps.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
You could always, you know, jump earlier to cover that space or get that edgehog. After messing with it all day I have gotten the hang of it with many of the characters and it allows for more exciting game in my opinion. (Call me a scrub but edgeguarding is 'my only option' tactic. It's more manly and stuff to spike or hit with an aerial :)) I really think it if was slowed down and not so extreme it would be fine.

I also disagree that it isn't helpful, I'm finding it quite helpful for many of my characters, especially Ganondorf. The big thing this code does is making the platform games more exciting. Either way, let's see what we can do about the code. For all we know we can't get rid of that launch speed, cause the game considers that a jump or aerial momentum.
 

cooler1339

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Messages
156
Location
Cali, Monterey
You could always, you know, jump earlier to cover that space or get that edgehog. After messing with it all day I have gotten the hang of it with many of the characters and it allows for more exciting game in my opinion. (Call me a scrub but edgeguarding is 'my only option' tactic. It's more manly and stuff to spike or hit with an aerial :)) I really think it if was slowed down and not so extreme it would be fine.

I also disagree that it isn't helpful, I'm finding it quite helpful for many of my characters, especially Ganondorf. The big thing this code does is making the platform games more exciting. Either way, let's see what we can do about the code. For all we know we can't get rid of that launch speed, cause the game considers that a jump or aerial momentum.
This is what I was talking about. I never said I liked the run off speed. It should be toned down on some characters. But I do think the run off speed should be kept to a certain extent, enough past being able to hog.

I think lowering it down 10-20% will fix all the problems. Even for sonic.
 

The Night Cat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
28
Location
Australia
Hey, with the new momentum code you can dash cancel with shiek, crawl back a halfstep and then release the stick to slide backwards still facing the opponent. This slide can reach back to before you dashed if you crouch cancel as soon as you are out of the initial dash animation. The motion for this is a down to back quarter circle which you release quickly. Absolute speed in the input isn't as nescessary as making sure you start crawling and release back correctly. For the distance/speed of the slide it seems to work on how quickly you can go from crouch canceling to crawling, so I guess there is some speed involved.

I haven't tested this with other characters yet.

Obviously this would be fixed up with a friction mod but it's still interesting.

Edit: Tested it with luigi works cause he can crawl but it didn't work with snake even though he has a 'crawl', also no go for lucario.
 

Starscream

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
636
Location
Burnaby, BC
But why do we need the momentum to carry at all when running off platforms? Shouldn't it be only from jumps? In that way, you'd keep all of the control you normally had when running off of platforms, but also have the option of moving faster by running and jumping instead. You'd get the best of both worlds.

80% of dash speed with momentum only carrying in jumps would be perfect. Then, we'd just need some kind of deceleration function (so that the character eventually slows down to maximum airspeed) and we'd be all set.
I completely agree with you, this walk off stuff is completely unneeded. I also did not like it at all. Nothing to really add to the debate but I just thought I'd show my support for your side.
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
Hey, with the new momentum code you can dash cancel with shiek, crawl back a halfstep and then release the stick to slide backwards still facing the opponent. This slide can reach back to before you dashed if you crouch cancel as soon as you are out of the initial dash animation. The motion for this is a down to back quarter circle which you release quickly. Absolute speed in the input isn't as nescessary as making sure you start crawling and release back correctly. For the distance/speed of the slide it seems to work on how quickly you can go from crouch canceling to crawling, so I guess there is some speed involved.
Backward WD from a dash? Sounds cool!

On the walk off issue, I still haven't had a chance to test, but if it takes away stage spike bairs, then it really should be fixed. Like everyone+Dark Sonic have been saying, if you want the distance you can just short hop off the ledge.
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,958
Location
Dragon Kick you into the Milky Way!
I think we need a way to stop sliding around after every aerial. While Falcon feels the most awesome character in the game, he lacks control because of the low traction he produces thanks to the aerial momentum.


On another note, I actually like the idea of having an accelerated walk off (but at a lower speed). We should make it where you're able to fast fall off platforms/edges (by pressing down of course) and accelerate off of them (by just running). That would actually make this game interesting to say the least.
 

Sanu

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
2,179
So now that I've been thoroughly ignored, about them grab speeds... >(
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
On another note, I actually like the idea of having an accelerated walk off (but at a lower speed). We should make it where you're able to fast fall off platforms/edges (by pressing down of course) and accelerate off of them (by just running). That would actually make this game interesting to say the least.
And if you want to go off at normal speed? Then what? Walk very slowly and hold backwards after you leave the platform to counteract that little bit of momentum that you still get?

Why should we take away that option? You're not really adding anything that you can't already do with just a shorthop, but you are severly reducing the effectiveness of another commonly used tactic (such as stage spike bairs, navigation between multiple platforms, ect.) and completely eliminating others (such as speed hugging).

If you're really adamant about keeping this sliding off momentum, then it should be a small percentage, and even then fast characters should be completely exempt from the code for the sake of keeping these techniques.

Do you realize what 20% of Sonic's full run speed is? (with a 1.15 multiplier mind you) He can barely speed hug at normal air speed (in fact, he is completely incapable of regular hugging in the first place. He must fast fall in order to grab the ledge even with normal airspeed). And forget any sort of stage spiking, since he just won't be close enough to the stage.

Fox is recovering from below the ledge and you're Sonic? Well, speed huggings not an option anymore, and if you run of and bair you'll just miss. Springs are outprioritized by his firefox, so what's really left? Hope he doesn't sweetspot (even though the ledgegrab range is really, really big) and go for an onstage edgeguard? All so that you don't have to press the jump button when you want to move fast in the air?

Standing on a platform as Marth, with someone under you? Well, Marth really wants to get down, but obvoiusly just dropping through the platform would be a bad idea. You could run off the side that's closer to the center of the stage...but the other player is covering that area? But if you run off the other side, you end up off the stage, which is actually a pretty bad position for Marth (if the opponent knows what he's doing). What do you do? Jump to a higher platform (which doesn't help much) or casually walk off the side (which the opponent can easily react to)? You could run and jump to the other platform on the other side, but you could already do that without the walk off momentum.

See what I mean? You lose various viable tactics while gaining almost nothing that you couldn't do with some other method (which is actually almost as fast). In melee, when you ran off a platform you only moved at your own character's max airspeed. None of the dash momentum transfered, it only looked like that because you didn't have to accelerate to reach top speed.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
I wouldn't want to change throw speeds if they affect hitboxes. If they don't I'm fine with them. I'm perfectly content with grabs as they are now. If changing the throw speed has any negative attached I'm against it.

Any word on a friction mod?

And.. oh my God, Ganondorf lightning jabs are back? This is unreal, so the frame speed code works to perfection? Will changes like this be part of beta 3? Will beta 3 contain Ganon's lightning jab? I'd like if it incorporated such modifications.

What else do we have to change with regards to frame speeds, have we crafted a list of some sort?

Here are some tweaks that I think would be nice-- some of wich involving characters I don't play.

Shiek: A slight bit more knockback on her Fair, to make it a better finishing move. (is this possible yet)

Bowser: I don't play him, nor do my friends, but he's an incredibly easy, large target. He needs some boosting, he needs some help. Which of his moves could we speed up to even the playing field a bit? Obviously, if we're capable of controlling knockback and what not on attacks we could take care of that to.

Captain Falcon: Faster Falcon Punch, not by a lot, but it'd be nice if it could be executed a slight bit more quickly. What about speeding up his down tilt by a slight bit? Oftentimes this is punishable as it's really slow, there's no chance of doing it twice in a row. Does this merit a slight speed boost?

Jiggles: Her rest, even with hitstun, is sometimes not enough to finish people at higher percents. I think this merits a boost in knockback. I also think we need to do something with her Sing, it's useless. What can we do to fix this? Increase its area of affect?

What do you guys think? What other moves could be sped up? Do we have the option to increase the knockback of specific moves yet?
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
I wouldn't want to change throw speeds if they affect hitboxes. If they don't I'm fine with them. I'm perfectly content with grabs as they are now. If changing the throw speed has any negative attached I'm against it.

Any word on a friction mod?

And.. oh my God, Ganondorf lightning jabs are back? This is unreal, so the frame speed code works to perfection? Will changes like this be part of beta 3? Will beta 3 contain Ganon's lightning jab? I'd like if it incorporated such modifications.

What else do we have to change with regards to frame speeds, have we crafted a list of some sort?

Here are some tweaks that I think would be nice-- some of wich involving characters I don't play.

Shiek: A slight bit more knockback on her Fair, to make it a better finishing move. (is this possible yet)

Bowser: I don't play him, nor do my friends, but he's an incredibly easy, large target. He needs some boosting, he needs some help. Which of his moves could we speed up to even the playing field a bit? Obviously, if we're capable of controlling knockback and what not on attacks we could take care of that to.

Captain Falcon: Faster Falcon Punch, not by a lot, but it'd be nice if it could be executed a slight bit more quickly. What about speeding up his down tilt by a slight bit? Oftentimes this is punishable as it's really slow, there's no chance of doing it twice in a row. Does this merit a slight speed boost?

Jiggles: Her rest, even with hitstun, is sometimes not enough to finish people at higher percents. I think this merits a boost in knockback. I also think we need to do something with her Sing, it's useless. What can we do to fix this? Increase its area of affect?

What do you guys think? What other moves could be sped up? Do we have the option to increase the knockback of specific moves yet?
Lightning Jab is in B3.
Bowser also receives a special code to buff him in B3.
Metaknight also receives a nerf in B3.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
Lightning Jab is in B3.
Bowser also receives a special code to buff him in B3.
Metaknight also receives a nerf in B3.
@_@ this is what ive been waiting for!!!! getting giddy here.. buffs/nerfs are starting to happen:chuckle:
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
What I'd love way more than Fox being able to jump cancel his shine would be for it to cancel upon hitting the ground like in SSB64. WAY more fun and way more useful in Brawl too, considering there's no wavedashing.
That'd be pretty cool... hah, he could do a landing shine > Usmash if this were implemented. (Possibly, not 100%, I'm just guessing). But, it would help him and I dunno if he needs anymore help. :urg:
 

GPDP

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
927
Hey, if PW was able to make MAD/HAD, I don't see how he would not be able to fix this code. He'll figure something out.

The problem of lines, however, still remains.
 

☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
1,672
Location
waiting for mars to hurry up with that **** blunt
Frame Speed Mod Engine[Phantom Wings, spunit262]
C2766C20 00000014
D01F0010 3C008180
807D0008 8063FFFC
7C030000 4080000C
80630030 48000008
386000FF 809D0014
C0240040 FC40081E
D8410008 8001000C
FC210028 80BD007C
80A50038 38C200D8
84E60008 2C070000
41820048 7CE8C671
41A0000C 7C081800
4082FFE8 54E8863E
7C004000 41A0FFDC
54E8043E 7C082800
4082FFD0 C0060004
FC21002A C04283D8
FC011040 40A00008
FC201090 D0240040
60000000 00000000

Frame Speed Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
This code adds the following:
-Double Ganon's jab speed
-Fixed grab release glitches

If you don't want these included, delete the Green and change 38 to 20

065A9400 00000038
FF000018 ARIALLAG
FF000074 LEDGELAG
FF00000A JUMPSTAR
FF000061 UKEMROLL
FF000040 3FAA9FBE
FF000041 3FAA9FBE
14000024 40000000


Format is
XXYYZZZZ LLLLLLLL

XX is Character ID labels
YY is the first frame the speed mod is applied (experimental).
ZZZZ is the Action ID
LLLLLLLL is the multiplier for frame speed.

Explanation:

Notes:
1. The first one on the list that matches is used.
2. It detects the end of the list, by reading 00000000, this means that you can't modify Mario's standing animation starting with the first frame (who care), And you need to make sure that there are zeros after it.
3. FF is use as the Character id for every one.
4. You need to modify the byte count when adding new lines, it's the second part of the first line "Frame Speed Mod Data". The value is 8 per line, I alway count it by count line pair (excluding the first line), multiply that by 0x10 (16 decimal) and add 8 if the number of lines is odd.Code:


can some one post an example of how to use this code?

EDIT: preferably how to make the game play 1 frame at a time for perfect replay creation :D
 

Spike222

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
36
Just a quick question. I tried MuBa's codeset last night with the momentum. It felt great, I can't wait to use it more. Few questions though, is the lag supposed to be 100% cancel now? I tried Link and his down air on ground impact had virtually no lag.... I'm not complaining really but will that make some characters too good? Sonics down air was similar, almost no lag, and you could jab out of it the second you touched the floor.

Personally I like the way it feels because I like things more fast paced but I wasnt sure if that was on accident.

Wolf feels a lot better, I like being able to Fair again, and make more use of his Dair on stage. Dair off stage is fine too.

Also, the sound effect is gone when grabbing the ledge, is that fixable? Amazing job on everything so far guys, seriously unbelievable how much Brawl+ has changed original Brawl for the better.
 

Starscream

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
636
Location
Burnaby, BC
Captain Falcon: Faster Falcon Punch, not by a lot, but it'd be nice if it could be executed a slight bit more quickly. What about speeding up his down tilt by a slight bit? Oftentimes this is punishable as it's really slow, there's no chance of doing it twice in a row. Does this merit a slight speed boost?
As much as we all love CF, he really doesn't need a buff in this kind of way. I do think that his reverse Up+B needs to be fixed, it really makes his offstage game a chore.
 
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