Creation of BBR Ruleset Committee; Brawl Nationals Agree to Same Stagelist! New TO's!

[~ Gheb ~]

What a joke. Even if my activity as a TO wouldn't be limited to Europe I would never agree to use such an atrocious stage list.

 

[sandwhale]

given the way that they're attempting to force this through it's not entirely a bad analogy, this wasn't really agreed on by the community at large they're just trying to make it standard via manipulation of information(that is, not listing tournaments that use different rules)

Quoting this for absolute truth. I must say I was utterly disgusted when I read the OP. You are using the exact same means to IMPOSE your ideals as do or did the dictatorships that hide behind communism. You made an agreement with the small group of people with power (the biggest TOs) and decided upon a standard ruleset made from a compromise based on subjectif criteria (or maybe just feelings) with NO request of approval from the community and have decided that our game's only media (SWF and allisbrawl) will be greatly prioritizing tournaments following their ruleset!

Making all the national tournaments agree to the same directives would be the same as an agreement between all the nation's political parties. No matter which one you choose it will always be the same! Because of the FACT that this ruleset cannot be claimed as to be perfect we need variety and we need to let the community in on this, that's the key to making things evolve in life while what you're doing is making it as stale as possible.

Now to give you my stand point on the stage list. I am also very much against stages such as picto, ps2 or brinstar. Mostly because of the player vs player vs stage argument. It doesn't matter that the lava wont' kill you till 180%, the problem is it forces the players to play in such away that their personal confrontation (reads, momentum, mindgames, tech skill, adaptation) becomes GREATLY limited and the game becomes much more about avoiding the opponent until you get the opportunity to abuse a stage gimmick then rinse ans repeat. This causes a huge staling of the metagame and makes the game lose its meaning as a competitive fighter.

To end this I'll just say I was really looking forward to Europe coming to the states next year, now that I'm not so sure it will happen I'm quite saddened. Maybe you don't care because you consider us a scrubby continent, anyway right now I'm happy to be living in Europe.

 

[TheTantalus]

I want to say a couple things, to make some things clear.

1. This will be the "BBR ruleset", despite Crow saying it isn't. View the tournament directors as a "subdivision" of the Brawl Back Room. The BBR official recommended ruleset was never used, ever, so effectively the ruleset meant nothing. I remember the outlash there was when Marc posted 3.0.

2. This is not a "tyranny" or "dictatorship" or "communist" environment. I can understand why you have that view, and I totally questioned this at first. I was the first person to say "Stop here, this sounds like too much power." But what effectively it is doing is simply redesignating who is in charge of the ruleset. Instead of the BBR, it is the Subdivision of TO's. The bonus to that is the stickies. If you're planning to have a world class national, chances are you'll be in the group. We are going to expand our membership so that all regions can be represented well.

3. We'll have the ability to test changes in our own region. Let's say, for instance, that jungle japes (as it has been here) becomes a discussion for debate and needs to be tested not just in theory but in tournaments. The people that can do that are sitting right here in this group. I can test it in a MD tournament, while AZ can test it in an Ohio tournament. There are so many options. If we find that it is fit for competitive play among all our regions then we may amend it. The same goes for Pictochat as a counterpick.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I agree with raziek, this ruleset should only be utilized at national events, if some local wants to host a tournament using mansion, or using a 3 stage starter he should be allowed, however I believe this is a suitable compromise for national events.

And they still can. Why are people pretending your run-of-the-mill local was going to get sticky status anyways?

3. We'll have the ability to test changes in our own region. Let's say, for instance, that jungle japes (as it has been here) becomes a discussion for debate and needs to be tested not just in theory but in tournaments. The people that can do that are sitting right here in this group. I can test it in a MD tournament, while AZ can test it in an Ohio tournament. There are so many options. If we find that it is fit for competitive play among all our regions then we may amend it. The same goes for Pictochat as a counterpick.

This (and also what Tantalus has said). This is tournament directors/organizers/whatever you want to call them getting together and working together for the very first time. People that have actual resources to implement and test ideas.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Would it be possible to include an explanation on why specific stages were included or not included? Surely the decisions would be more comprehensible that way.

 

[BSP]

1. This will be the "BBR ruleset", despite Crow saying it isn't. .

You guys need to put some logic behind this stagelist then, or some kind of criteria.

 

[clowsui]

What a joke. Even if my activity as a TO wouldn't be limited to Europe I would never agree to use such an atrocious stage list.



Indeed. I have had high hopes on attending the next Apex and convincing a lot of fellow europeans to come along. But I have no intention to spend 1000€+ just to get lucked out on Pictochat by 100% random occurances, that you have no control over WHATSOVER and can kill you at 0%. Why don't you allow Wario Ware while we're on the subject? At least that stage is actually fun and goes along perfectly with the horrible lack of logic of this stage list.

Just ban Pictochat with your stage ban.

 

[etecoon]

Just ban Pictochat with your stage ban.

this is still obviously handicapping him for a stage he doesn't feel should be legal, and he can just go to local tournaments and not have to deal with it

honestly MLG was the same way, why spend all the money to travel when you go and possibly just get gayed over by norfair or green greens? and then people wonder why we couldn't cap? LOL

forcing increasingly liberal stage lists on us when most of the community clearly doesn't want it is totally a brilliant move though

 

[clowsui]

I don't believe that stage lists had much to do w/ why MLG events didn't cap >_>;

Also, this stage list is far from liberal and is, in fact, less liberal than MLG. Has the community standard really become SV/FD/BF/YI/LC? Or has it actually become SV/FD/BF without me knowing somehow?

Btw, for the characters that are good on Picto, most if not all have FD as the alternative CP option...which is a neutral, right?

 

[etecoon]

I don't personally have a problem with picto...that stage has actually been pretty good to me on the occasion that it's been legal <_<

I think most would agree that

FD
BF
YI
SV
LC

CS
PS1
RC
Brinstar
Fino
Orpheon
Halberd

are standard stages. in spite of my griping about brinstar earlier, it's obviously a stage that is typically legal pretty much everywhere. some regions allow other stages at random such as japes or norfair, but these are an extreme minority and they tend to be...at random, japes may be legal in one region but not norfair and norfair may be legal in one region but not japes, there is no consensus even amongst the more liberal TO's as to which would be legitimate, and thus they aren't even borderline standard

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

you can't define competetive.

Let's assume for a minute you're right, and there's no truly quantifiable measure of when a game is more or less competitive. EVEN THEN, the community as a whole could come together and find reasonable criteria for when the game is more or less competitive. And no, I don't mean by popular opinion.
However, just a cursory glance at various ranges of gaming points to one major qualifying factor in competition: depth. Almost every game played competitively on a global level has an amazing amount of depth. If we as a community agree on this (and we should, because it's been the basis for competitive games for millenia; it's the largest separation between Tic Tac Toe and games like Chess or Go), then there is a logical conclusion that must be accepted; liberal stagelists are more competitive.

A liberal stagelist would be tons more acceptable with 2 or more stage bans IMO.

I've been stating this for a while, and before that, Raziek was advocating it heavily.

because most people prefer it to be player vs player instead of player vs player vs stage, while obviously other things such as platform layouts do affect gameplay, one has to draw the line somewhere as to how much the stage can interfere with gameplay before it has become a problem. "these platforms favor marth's aerial pressure game" is obviously a far cry from "the stage literally attacks you"

"Interfere"? Dude, this is Brawl and I don't know why I have to keep reminding the Super Smash Bros community that SSB is a different game. I mean, you'd think being ridiculed by most other competitive communities for playing a "casual game" this seriously would do the trick. The stage literally attacks you is not a ****ing problem. It's an intentional design element in the game, and we as players are supposed to DEAL WITH IT.

If we draw the line anywhere before "completely overcentralizing and/or random to the extent of severe skill-mitigation" (there are only a handful of hazards in the game that actually fulfill this, such as the Fish on Summit, and the creeps on Mario Bros; norfair's lava plumes and basically Pictochat's entire repertoire can debatably fulfill this... beyond that, what other hazards are there?), we are slapping the game's inherent design in the face and essentially changing what you need to be good at the game. However, that's really not a huge problem... the problem is what arises when we start banning stages for "literally attacking you". You remove a ****load of competitive depth from the game because you were too much of a ***** to deal with NON-RANDOM hazards (as far as pictochat goes: see below). "Damaging the player" is not a criteria for banning a stage. It shouldn't be. There's simply no reason. "Randomly damaging the player" can be a criteria due to skill mitigation, but you have to a draw a line there (IMO it's either right after or right before pictochat; but I recognize this as a judgement call, unless someone wants to tell me I'm wrong?), and have it be noted that drawing this line wrong leaves you with a stagelist of 4 stages (SuSa got this after drawing it to its natural conclusion; I think it's RC, JJ, BF, and FD). Just thought I'd mention that.

you're not looking at the entire picture, the stage isn't a problem if you look at it in one dimension "just jump and you don't get hit by the lava", but you now have a situation where the stage has FORCED you to do something independent of the other players actions. this is like me saying that meta knight's tornado should have a tractor beam so that it sucks anyone in from anywhere on the stage and there's no way to avoid it

that would be totally awesome though, can some of the hackers get on something like this?

The stage has forced you to do something independant of the other player's actions. Okay... Like if you jump offstage on FD, you have to recover or die? I suppose this analogy is kinda bad, but really? Yes, you are forced to jump... or get hit by the lava. To quote the song "Room 429": "When you reach a brick wall, there is still a decision". You don't have to jump, you can eat lava.

But in all seriousness, so what? The stage forces you to do something independent of your opponent. This is normal. Smash is a platform fighter, and the number of stages that won't force you to do something independent of your opponent is, well, really ****ing small. Not only is there no reason to exclude stages for forcing you to perform an action your opponent did not presuppose which is completely predictable and scheduled, but in doing so, you lose an incredible amount of competitive depth.

still does damage and tends to hit one character more than the other. particularly strong ground characters while the lava might as well not exist for MK, GAW, and wario

Oh look, one character's qualities are better suited to a certain environment. Whodathunkit.

See, the trick here is that every character can jump. There is not a single character in the game who cannot jump. Therefore, every character in the game can avoid the lava on brinstar. Every character can walk and/or run, therefore every character in the game can avoid the cars and road on PTAD. Every character can jump, run, dodge, and block, and therefore every character in the game can avoid all of the hazards on norfair, pictochat, and virtually every stage in the game. So no, it does not have a tendency to hit more character more. The only real difference here is in how mobile a character is. If you are playing against a dummy, then you will never be hit by the lava on brinstar, doesn't matter if you're Wario/MK or ICs... unless you are also a mannequin. Which means that what really matters here is your ability to avoid the hazard AND outplay your opponent into it at the same time! Compare to normal stages, where what matters is your ability to outplay your opponent with assistance of the stage elements (platforms, stage floor, whatever)...

So what you have here is this:
On stages without actual hazards: What matters is your ability to outplay your opponent with assistance of the stage elements.
On stages WITH actual hazards: What matters is your ability to outplay your opponent with the assistance of... the stage elements.

Stages with hazards virtually exactly the same as stages without hazards.
QED.

FD doesn't have stage created two pronged attacks where you have to choose between getting hit by lava or farted on or rufio'd

No, but so what? FD has the stage doing absolutely nothing against that stream of lazers coming from across one of the largest legal stages. FD has the stage severely enabling chaingrabs and grab combos. FD has the stage offering you nowhere to run to.

As said above, there is no real difference. The only difference is a mistaken one, in our perceptions of the stage. It's a classic case of our common sense gone wrong.

hazards, especially ones that are as constant as brinstar's, do not create depth, they destroy it. I'm sure everyone has seen M2K vs ally on that stage or DMG vs razer, fighting on brinstar is as one dimensional as the game gets. you replace reads, baits, and mindgames with "if I do THIS over and over again, they literally can't stop it"

Well what is actually the problem? Is it that brinstar as a stage is broken? Somehow I doubt it; there are quite a lot of matchups that can run legitimately on the stage with no degeneracy. Is it that the characters are broken? Nah, doesn't seem like it; we've all seen top MKs lose.
...Actually, we've seen top MKs lose on BRINSTAR. Hold that though for a moment...
So what is the problem? It isn't the character. It isn't the stage. Is it the tactic? If so, I doubt we can ban the tactic effectively; I don't even know what it IS.
The thing that is broken here is the character+stage combination. And what a coincidence, targeted stage bans (the ones we give to a player before game 2) removes that issue very effectively! So quit griping about it and just agree to more stage bans.
And, of course, this is all presupposing that MK/Wario is broken on Brinstar. But lemme say this real quick. The idea that that's true is kind of ****ed when you consider that Gnes beat tyrant there. Furthermore, that also severely undermines the idea that it's one-dimensional and that there is an overcentralizing tactic on the stage at all; you think if there IS a strategy that removes all depth on the stage, that top players would drop games there? HELL NO! Care to tell me what the strategy is?

that's...one of the reasons it's an absolutely ridiculous stage

It's more than you'd think.

Indeed. I have had high hopes on attending the next Apex and convincing a lot of fellow europeans to come along. But I have no intention to spend 1000€+ just to get lucked out on Pictochat by 100% random occurances, that you have no control over WHATSOVER and can kill you at 0%. Why don't you allow Wario Ware while we're on the subject? At least that stage is actually fun and goes along perfectly with the horrible lack of logic of this stage list.

Even though we disagree on so many things... **** yeah this. **** pictochat.

Would it be possible to include an explanation on why specific stages were included or not included? Surely the decisions would be more comprehensible that way.

Seriously, THIS. Or WAS there even any reasoning? Or did you just take a vote (which remains one of the most stupid things you can do in a situation like this!)?






Also, seriously guys, what is the say on starters and stage bans? How large is the starter list/what are its contents, and how many stage bans are there? These things are CRITICAL TO THE CREATION OF A RULESET!!! There's a gigantic difference between this stagelist with 2 stage bans and 13 starters, and this stagelist with 0 bans and FD as the only starter.

 

[Orion*]

I don't personally have a problem with picto...that stage has actually been pretty good to me on the occasion that it's been legal <_<

I think most would agree that

FD
BF
YI
SV
LC

CS
PS1
RC
Brinstar
Fino
Orpheon
Halberd

are standard stages. in spite of my griping about brinstar earlier, it's obviously a stage that is typically legal pretty much everywhere. some regions allow other stages at random such as japes or norfair, but these are an extreme minority and they tend to be...at random, japes may be legal in one region but not norfair and norfair may be legal in one region but not japes, there is no consensus even amongst the more liberal TO's as to which would be legitimate, and thus they aren't even borderline standard

waits for the stage crew to ask where distant planet is

 

[clowsui]

eh I honestly thing Japes is more legitimate than Pictochat and that they're not equal, lol. At least Japes has a timed hazard, Pictochat has Norfair syndrome w/ hazards that force you into a certain position that may screw you over even further once they actually appear

@bpc

Tesh: one step at a time. We will come out with a more comprehensive list when more tournament directors are added to the room. This is in its infancy.

 

[etecoon]

I don't feel like reading and responding to that entire brick, but I felt like commenting on this

No, but so what? FD has the stage doing absolutely nothing against that stream of lazers coming from across one of the largest legal stages.

this is the fundamental difference in philosophy that ensures we will never agree on this, you expect the stage to do at least some of the fighting for you. it's not fair that the stage isn't actively preventing falco from doing what falco does? cmon son

 

[Overswarm]

The BBR had absolutely nothing to do with this.

Overswarm does not approve.



Edit:

Seriously, take our name off that. This is a ridiculously poor thought out rule, and the only reason it is flying is because you guys have the admin tools on smashboards.

The BBR had absolutely nothing to do with this, and saw it the first time everyone else here did. We also completely reamed AZ about this back there; very few of us like it, you'll see the supporters in this thread.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Thanks for shedding some light on the situation, Overswarm.

 

[6Mizu]

The time for us to unify is finally here. I hope it works this time.

Guys, how the rules are going to be structured is not the topic of this discussion. There are countless other topics in which that can be discussed.

And...people are still doing this throughout the thread even after this post.

 

[etecoon]

The BBR had absolutely nothing to do with this.

Overswarm does not approve.

man you couldn't get shadowlink, MMM, and king beef to sign off on it, this stage list has no legitimacy

oh, aside from taking petty jabs at people because I'm a **** I agree with OS <_< the "this IS going to be standard because we moderate the forums" strategy is extremely questionable

 

[AlphaZealot]

All the top TO's are together on this and the admins from two sites (AllisBrawl/Smashboards) are on board with this. As the leader of the BBR and a senator of Smashboards, as well as having worked with the other admins going as far up as the GM of Smashboards (JV), I can say with certainty that this is a new Committee of the BBR. It does not, nor would it have even been logical, to attempt to get an 70-80 person BBR to approve of the creation of a TO-only BBR (especially when the number of TO's in the BBR number under 20% of the room).

There were also less than 10 people making complaints in the BBR-at-large. Overswarm does not at all speak for everybody, most of the supporters (as usual) are silent. Those that disapprove always make the most noise, this is a general truth in life.

the "this IS going to be standard because we moderate the forums" strategy is extremely questionable

All the nationals were already on board with making and uniting behind the same ruleset. Most of the tournaments that this policy would effect had already agreed to use the same rules before there was even a policy about stickies/coverage being talked about.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Stickies on Smashboards will be limited only to tournaments using this ruleset, effective January 1st.

That is absolutely horrible.
I hope you reconsider this part. Everything else I support.

 

[6Mizu]

<3 AZ
That's extremely true. Plus Im sure this has a lot more supporters compared to the amount of people against it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

this is the fundamental difference in philosophy that ensures we will never agree on this, you expect the stage to do at least some of the fighting for you. it's not fair that the stage isn't actively preventing falco from doing what falco does? cmon son

Not fair? I never implied that. The implication is that it is fair that the stage is, say, actively preventing Diddy from staying in the same place the whole match shooting peanuts behind a banana wall. You missed the point-Falco is abusing the stage on FD by camping and running his *** off just as much as, say, Wario is on brinstar by dair camping you effectively. And both of these are completely okay. And also... Appeal to ridicule is not an argument. I literally smashed exactly this logic in the last post; what you're doing is simply turning to the studio audience and pointing out an extreme example which, with common sense, seems wrong (but actually isn't). Compare to a debate between a supporter of relativity and someone who doesn't believe it turning to the studio audience and saying, "You honestly gonna belive this crap, that stuff literally gets heavier when it goes faster? And that you can't ever go beyond a certain speed? It's nonsense!"



ALSO I REALLY WOULD LOVE SOME REASONING BEHIND THE STAGELIST, THINGS LIKE WHY PICTOCHAT MADE IT IN BUT JJ AND GG DIDN'T.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

You know the funny thing about this ruleset? Look who's hosting the tournaments, oh looky the TO's in the group. Hmm, it's their tournaments, they can make the stagelist whatever they want. They're even generous enough to be willing to expand their group to include other TOs and test different stages. It's not like there are any stages that are complete garbage on the list, a little consistency seems kinda nice.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Because when you have TOs that run tournaments, you have to get them to agree to all actually using a stage.

This ruleset initiative is fundamentally different than the previously labeled "BBR Recommended Ruleset". The difference is these are rules that will actually be practiced, not what rules could/should be in theory. There is a huge difference, and there is no point in including stages that TOs will refuse to use-it is simply not practical.

You know the funny thing about this ruleset? Look who's hosting the tournaments, oh looky the TO's in the group. Hmm, it's their tournaments, they can make the stagelist whatever they want. They're even generous enough to be willing to expand their group to include other TOs and test different stages. It's not like there are any stages that are complete garbage on the list, a little consistency seems kinda nice.

10 thiss.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Because when you have TOs that run tournaments, you have to get them to agree to all actually using a stage.

This ruleset initiative is fundamentally different than the previously labeled "BBR Recommended Ruleset". The difference is these are rules that will actually be practiced, not what rules could/should be in theory. There is a huge difference, and there is no point in including stages that TOs will refuse to use-it is simply not practical.



10 thiss.

So it's "whatever the hell top TOs want"?

 

[Overswarm]

All the top TO's are together on this and the admins from two sites (AllisBrawl/Smashboards) are on board with this. As the leader of the BBR and a senator of Smashboards, as well as having worked with the other admins going as far up as the GM of Smashboards (JV) that this is a new Committee of the BBR. It does not, nor would it have even been logical, to attempt to get an 70-80 person BBR to approve of the creation of a TO-only BBR.

There were also less than 10 people making complaints in the BBR. Overswarm does not at all speak for everybody, most of the supporters (as usual) are silent. Those that disapprove always make the most noise, this is a general truth in life.

I'll just have to raise more here until you remove the BBR's name for this and call it for what it is: smashboards admins deciding to muscle people into using their ruleset.

You don't like it? Your tournament doesn't get stickied, featured, whatever.

Because that works much better than judging events based off of size and hype. That system never promoted big tournaments, am I right?

You have members on this committee that aren't even IN the BBR. XYRO WAS EVEN KICKED OUT OF THE BBR.

You chose people already running tournaments to use this sham of a ruleset, and created it without any input from the BBR whatsoever. None, literally. You posted a thread back there a few days before this came up and said "it's a surprise, you guys'll think its awesome!".

We didn't. We don't.

Call it for what it is. Admins trying to push for something they want, and using the BBRs name to do it.

Remove the BBRs name from that. It never had anything to do with us.

If you're going to **** over the community by using the admin tools, go for it. People can despise you and JV on their own. I just don't want the BBR associated with that, and especially not myself. I'm not so stupid as to say "Ah, you run tournaments so you must be an expert on competitive stage balance" and expect a good ruleset. I'm also not going to impose my will on tournaments that aren't mine.


You're attempting to make a "national ruleset" by forcing TOs that make big events use your ruleset. How long is this going to last? Do you seriously think someone like Xyro is going to hear complaints from their players and leave the stagelist as it is? What about Alex? Alex likes to pride himself on how good of a TO he is and how he listens to the community. With this ruleset, he can't. Tournament rulesets must either deny the existence of your "standard", or become bureaucratically slow at changing their rules.

As you give no incentive other than the two-year-old pouting method (we won't sticky your tournament if you don't use our rule) and these tournaments don't need you in the first place, it won't be too long before people ignore you.

Tournaments have had different rulesets in different regions for years.

The BBR's ruleset is a take on balance. Competitive fairness. No matter what anyone says, we've tested it more than them and we vote fairly regularly on it. We tell someone "Yeah, we know you like Distant Planet. It hasn't proven to be broken yet. Good luck" when everyone else just says nothing but "it's gay". We tell the people that think every stage should be legal that, no, some of them need to be banned.

Your ruleset is just a compromise of multiple mindsets. It doesn't have anything to do with balance whatsoever.

While the work done by the BBR-at-large over the years never received the universal acceptance we were shooting for, there were many notable innovations to come out of the room

Way to pay attention, AZ. No one ever WANTED universal acceptance. It wasn't the point. Universal acceptance isn't required or even necessary.

 

[etecoon]

And both of these are completely okay. And also... Appeal to ridicule is not an argument.

who said I was trying to have a legitimate debate with you? I've told you before I wouldn't bother, I'm just saying what I think

there's nothing to be gained from me arguing in a more persuasive manner because most people agree with me anyway, I don't have to convince anyone of anything when almost no one would claim FD's lack of hazards is more of a problem than brinstars proliferation of them

I ridicule you because it entertains me, I know you're too stubborn to change your mind...until you play on this kind of stage in tournament and have something BS happen to you anyway, funny how experience is the only thing that really changes anything, typing up a massive wall of text on it is simply a waste of time

 

[Overswarm]

Because when you have TOs that run tournaments, you have to get them to agree to all actually using a stage.

This ruleset initiative is fundamentally different than the previously labeled "BBR Recommended Ruleset". The difference is these are rules that will actually be practiced, not what rules could/should be in theory. There is a huge difference, and there is no point in including stages that TOs will refuse to use-it is simply not practical.



10 thiss.

So the logical next step is "let's force everyone else to do it for their tournaments"?


I'm tempted to start handing out bonus checks to Alex and Xyro for going against your ruleset from the start. I'm sure Alex would want some Europeans to go and would be willing to drop your ruleset for that.

 

[ADHD]

Good **** guys--this stagelist is not retardedly liberal.

Alex strife would just host his own conservative ruleset that's been proven to work for 2 years, lol. He wouldn't go by your rules when he's successful enough already.

 

[B!squick]

Thank god. I have no idea why it's taken so long for this to happen.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So it's "whatever the hell top TOs want"?

Be realistic. It's always been "whatever the hell TOs want". At least it will be uniform/standard.

Right now it is just top TOs, but membership will expand to cover more and more tournaments, not just national-level-hosts.

As mentioned, the biggest change, and one that will be difficult for some of you to understand, is that this is a group made for action and based in reality with real, physical resources, and therefor the ability to effect real change. This is a huge shift from the BBR Recommended Ruleset, which was grounded in theory and was not practically applicable to real tournaments.

Thank god. I have no idea why it's taken so long for this to happen.

Because of everything you are seeing in this thread. There were, and still are, countless hurdles to get the Smash community under one ruleset. The site will NEVER adopt a policy that would prevent a TO from posting a tournament with different rules, however a policy on stickies is completely reasonable, especially when only about 5% (IF THAT) of tournaments even have a chance to get stickied anyways, and if you actually went and looked at the stagelists for tournaments that get stickied you will find they do not vary by more than 2 stages from the list posted here at current.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

So what I can see here is that a few people here agree with this and about 2/3 wondering what you're intending to do with this... at these times I remember stuff like this...

Don't be silly. You're not wrong because nobody is agreeing with you, you're wrong because your points are weak and poorly supported. The fact that people disagree with you is a symptom of being wrong, not the cause or the proof of it. Canary in the coal mine, so to speak.

Though I guess not supported at all would apply more in this case...
I really think it'd help if you were to give some reasons why you did things like you did.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

who said I was trying to have a legitimate debate with you? I've told you before I wouldn't bother, I'm just saying what I think

Then why act like it should have any bearing? Your opinion doesn't matter, especially when it's LOGICALLY WRONG.

there's nothing to be gained from me arguing in a more persuasive manner because most people agree with me anyway, I don't have to convince anyone of anything when almost no one would claim FD's lack of hazards is more of a problem than brinstars proliferation of them

Wait. Hang on a second. Guys, bear with me.

I just logically proved something... And you all will disagree with me for no good reason and/or ignore that logic.

WHAT?

WHATWHATWHAT?????

Do you have any idea how stupid that would make you look if you weren't in the majority? Do you even understand how backwards that thought process is? "It's logically sound, but I don't agree with it therefore it's wrong" is not sensible in the slightest! It pisses me off when people think like this, because it's exactly the kind of illogical, misinformed BULL**** that is ruining every part of life, from education (creationism) to politics (the modern republicans/tea partyers who believe that Obama is a socialist and that the ground zero mosque has to be stopped and will ignore any and all reason for... well... anything they disagree with, no matter how illogical they are) to smash (idiots who don't understand what they're talking about crafting rulesets which make NO SENSE).

I ridicule you because it entertains me, I know you're too stubborn to change your mind...until you play on this kind of stage in tournament and have something BS happen to you anyway, funny how experience is the only thing that really changes anything, typing up a massive wall of text on it is simply a waste of time

Okay first of all: I am not irrational. If someone proves me wrong, and shows that hazards are eeeevil, then fair enough. I mean, I was really upset about SuSa's thread which seemed to prove, logically, that the ideal stagelist was 4 stages long (that is, until Jack and Raz proved the pretense wrong), but I was willing to accept it as correct. I've changed my stance somewhat regarding Norfair, Japes, and most notably Pictochat. I'm NOT irrational. But that also applies to tournament play. I got the **** gayed out of me on Japes in a friendly... by lucas. Did it change my perspective? Slightly, but I recognized that I'm not a good player, and that a good player would probably be able to deal with that sort of thing.

The BBR's ruleset is a take on balance. Competitive fairness. No matter what anyone says, we've tested it more than them and we vote fairly regularly on it. We tell someone "Yeah, we know you like Distant Planet. It hasn't proven to be broken yet. Good luck" when everyone else just says nothing but "it's gay". We tell the people that think every stage should be legal that, no, some of them need to be banned.

Your ruleset is just a compromise of multiple mindsets. It doesn't have anything to do with balance whatsoever.

I'm just gonna quote this, because it's 100% correct and this ruleset is ridiculous.

 

[TheTantalus]

I'd be happy to justify the stagelist, as it is the one for pound. I need a keyboard to do so, and not this mobile device. I will let you know my logic this afternoon. Raziek and I already discussed this, and I can tell you there were some disagreements we had, and a flaw with my logic before we even begin. But I have justification for the whole list. I spent weeks asking players about it and thinking about it.

 

[MattDotZeb]

"Stickies on Smashboards will be limited only to tournaments using this ruleset, effective January 1st. "

That is absolutely horrible.
I hope you reconsider this part. Everything else I support.

I'm serious, AZ.
Why is this even being considered?
It's basically saying "If you want our help for your tournament to be bigger, you MUST follow what we say for your stagelist."

I understand that the BR serves for guidelines for TOs and whatnot (and as far as the MBR goes I still do use a slightly different ruleset at my events), but I feel that setting specific rules for a tournament to get stickied is a bad idea.

Tournaments should be stickied based on popularity of the tournament, not the damn ruleset.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Be realistic. It's always been "whatever the hell TOs want". At least it will be uniform/standard.

You know what the old "standard" touted by the BBR was? Of course you do. It was the ****ing BBR recommended ruleset! Which was, BTW, WAY ****ING BETTER THAN THIS. Now this is going to be the standard. It has no logical backing. It doesn't go about things logically, or even care about the individual communities. It's a blanket ruleset which is horribly illogical! We were WAY better off when it was whatever the TO wants on a local scale. Now it's "whatever consensus a group of top TOs can come to"!

Right now it is just top TOs, but membership will expand to cover more and more tournaments, not just national-level-hosts.

And these "more and more tournaments"... How much say do they get?

As mentioned, the biggest change, and one that will be difficult for some of you to understand, is that this is a group made for action and based in reality with real, physical resources, and therefor the ability to effect real change. This is a huge shift from the BBR Recommended Ruleset, which was grounded in theory and was not practically applicable to real tournaments.

Uh... What? The BBR Recommended Ruleset was TOTALLY applicable to real tournaments. The problem was, nobody ****ing did it! So now, instead of providing an ACTUAL COUNTERPOINT, you're going to encourage scrubby behavior from the community?

Furthermore, this completely erases any hope of even getting playtesting on banned stages. It used to be that the only stage that you guys banned that really needed another look was Onett. Now it's that, plus the difference between this ruleset and the BBR 3.0. Who is even going to give those stages another look, and how, with a cartel of major TOs, will they ever get legalized? You've basically decided to murder the liberal stages movement, not because of the logic the BBR holds so highly, but out of some whim. WHAT? Oh, and you tack the BBR seal onto it... without it being BBR at all? This goes against virtually EVERYTHING the BBR supports. Logical determination of the correct ruleset. Sensible playtesting to see if a stage is banworthy. NOT BEING SCRUBS.

Yeah, this kinda pisses me off. At least with the old system, they were scrubs without being endorsed by the smartest organ of the smash community, and they created their stagelist according to what the community wanted. Now, they're not only scurbs with the "support" of said organ (LOLOLOLOLOLOL), but they aren't even using a ruleset they as scrubs hold to be correct! So they're STILL scrubs, but they aren't even getting anything out of it!

 

[DaomarIsBear]

It's a good thing BPC doesn't actually play the game, or this stuff might actually affect him.

 

[MattDotZeb]

^Do you even run tournaments, BPC?
If you do, then just run events without this ruleset.
If you don't, then leave it to the TOs to debate -or- stop coming to tournaments because you dislike this ruleset.

 

[AlphaZealot]

More importantly, it is also a list that does not require other TO's to change very much their own stagelists.

For my tournaments, that I run and am responsible for, I'm OK with dropping Norfair and Green Greens from my list. I can sacrifice this because I believe firmly in the goal of getting most tournament under the same ruleset.

Making stagelists/rulesets is not easy. There is probably not a single person in this thread whose personal, ideal ruleset would match another person. Think about that, and then keep that problem in mind when talking about getting most tournaments to use the same thing, so we finally come off as a united, more professional, more responsible, more mature, etc etc community.

People always ask me what issues the Smash community has that hurts its image to those outside it. One of the biggest issues to outsiders (both who are looking to take part in the game, or to sponsor the game, or to use the game at their tournaments) is our rules are completely funky, that we have no unity, that every single little TO decision gets second guessed by attendees and that it makes our community look bad and it makes it hard to run a Brawl tournament without dealing with constant grief.

 

[etecoon]

I just logically proved something... And you all will disagree with me for no good reason and/or ignore that logic.

I didn't see you prove anything, I just saw you post a lot of opinions like I did and like other people have been doing, backed up only by YOUR ideal of what brawl is "supposed" to be

I'd be happy to justify the stagelist, as it is the one for pound. I need a keyboard to do so, and not this mobile device. I will let you know my logic this afternoon. Raziek and I already discussed this, and I can tell you there were some disagreements we had, and a flaw with my logic before we even begin. But I have justification for the whole list. I spent weeks asking players about it and thinking about it.

looking forward to it. I don't personally have a huge issue with these stages but I am curious what the reasoning is as to where the line gets drawn between stages like brinstar/picto and GG/japes/norfair


something I could also see being a reasonable compromise is perhaps allowing all of these stages and allowing 3-4 stage bans, if you don't like most of the quirky stages you can get rid of most of them, if you don't like neutrals you could do that too. it'll never happen but it's a fun idea to think about