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DA MINDGRAINES: an Overview of Mindgames<----a post the doesn't suck.

omegablackmage

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ya this is why some people are starting to switch to lower tier characters. Tech skill might be great and all but being able to surprise your opponent with new characters is better. A character might have a lot of setbacks, but these all dissapear with good mindgames. Soon enough tiers will be gone and it will be just good people playin with whomever they like as a character, not just who has the best techs. Most people don't think the icy's are very good but chu does good, neo's roy?, aob's dk, all are just examples. Id love to see the day when there isn't a tournament spammed with marths, sheiks, peaches, and foxes. When people play for the mindgames and not the tech skill. Knowing your characters techs are important too, don't get me wrong, but playing the game tricky is better.
 

Emblem Lord

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Thats a great point which I will elaborate on at least a little bit. The tier list is a masterpiece. It is the result of years of hardwork and debates on the part of smashers and the members of the MBR. Still as accurate as it is,it has one major flaw. A characters placement on the list is based solely on his/her technical abilities and how effective those techniques are in high level play. There in lies the flaw, because we as humans are not limited to the techniques of our chosen characters, or the exploitations of game physics such as wavedashing. We can think. We can adapt. But most importantly we can manipulate. And thats what mind games are all about my fellow smashers-manipulation. Controlling your opponent and thus controlling the match. Knowing what they have planned and when they are gonna do it. Knowing thier options and how to deal with them. Getting them to play right into your hands and do what you want on your own terms.

Here is one thing to consider. If technical skill was as important as most smashers are led to believe then why is it that NEO can and has beaten Ken's Marth. Going by the tier list it should be impossible because on the technical level Marth is the better character, but NEO still wins. Could it be that the tier list means little when compared to the human mind and all of the infinite mind bending tricks and games it can use to bring an opponent to his/her kness? The answer of course is yes! Great technical skill will make you a smash pro, but good mind games will make you a smash god. So the next time someone tells you to stop using pichu...tell em " hey im gonna be the next NEO b***h and kick *** with this cute yellow bundle of cuteness so you can go to h***" Then look forward to the day that all characters are treated equally by all smashers and tiers become a thing of the past just like omegablackmage said.
 

g-regulate

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winning with lower tier characters requires near perfect technical skill and amazing mindgames. high tiers have that advantage as to where they have a stronger and/or wider variety of KO moves that can punish nearly every mistake an opponent makes, which is what makes them "easier" to win with. you should think "what mindgames can take away my characters disadvantages?"
 

Emblem Lord

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yes higher tiers do have many more viable options in battle at high level play then low tier characters do. Thats why low tier players must always be one step ahead of anyone they play. They have to be smarter, have those incredible mind games, and perfect technical skill because their charcter could very easily be obliterated by one careless mistake. thats why I'm so amazed by guys like NEO and many other low tier users. Also makes me wonder what kind of a monster NEO would be if he used Marth. If he can crush top tiers as Roy, what would it do for his game if he used a top tier character? Actually..imagaining how devastating NEO's Marth would be if he used him is kinda......scary...but also really cool!
 

GuardianSphinx

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Nice post G-regulate.

I agree, technical skill only plays a part of a great smasher, a smart player could rule over a very technical able player, by smart i mean mindgames but also just knowing what moves go with what. Of course the elite combine the two.

Check out great smashers videos, the colorado smash crew went crazy with wavedashing and it got a bit boring and seemed pointless, Now if you were to watch ken vs isai you notice they don't wavedash much, and use their mindgames and Pivoting and things, which maybe don't look flashy; but they win them the game. (and it's good to watch too :) )
 

SynikaL

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Emblem Lord said:
yes higher tiers do have many more viable options in battle at high level play then low tier characters do. Thats why low tier players must always be one step ahead of anyone they play. They have to be smarter, have those incredible mind games, and perfect technical skill because their charcter could very easily be obliterated by one careless mistake. thats why I'm so amazed by guys like NEO and many other low tier users. Also makes me wonder what kind of a monster NEO would be if he used Marth. If he can crush top tiers as Roy, what would it do for his game if he used a top tier character? Actually..imagaining how devastating NEO's Marth would be if he used him is kinda......scary...but also really cool!

NEO usually uses Marth in tournaments, though he did place third in MLG Philly with Roy only.


-Syn
 

Emblem Lord

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Have you seen vids of his Marth? How is he?
Off Topic:Hmmmm...and how come you don't frequent the Marth and Roy forums? And tell your boy tipman to upload the Triforce of power Ganondorf video. I NEED to see that vid. I heard it was friggin SICK!!!
On topic: Back to NEO. I'd imagine that after playing such a mindgame dependent character such as Roy his Marth would have an edge over most other high level players.
 

Emblem Lord

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Thanks syn. I really appreciate it. hmmmm..ok you know what? I'm gonna post some mindgames that I use personally. I may post more later.

Ganondorf mindgames: Whenever I play my friends Marth he usually expects a full jumped aerial followed by a double jumped b-air, d-air, or f-air. So thats when I fast fall after the second jump and waveland towards him for the grab to d-throw to b-air. I might chain throw a bit before the b-air though. Alternitively I will do a gerudo dragon after a wavedash or wave land if I think my opponent expects me to wave dash towards them. The sudden lungeback Ganon does usually allows me to avoid the attack and then hit them. Plus the pop up allows me to get a free aerial at mid percentages or a tilt attack at lower percentages sometimes even another gerudo dragon,which leads into a b-air or u-air usually. But it depends on the DI of my opponent as well.

So what does anybody think? Depending on the kind of response I get I may post more.
( But I probably will anyway because I LOVE sharing mindgames and strategies! :chuckle: )
 

Banks

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Dont share too many..if you go to a tournament you'll want to pull some new ones out of that dark hole called the bum of mystery
 

Blind

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Mindgames alone don't make a good smasher. You need both technical skill and the ability to out-think your opponent in order to win. At lower levels of play, perhaps dominating one end of the spectrum will get you somewhere, but you must have balance between the two to get anywhere.

You guys say that "you can have all the tech skill in the world but without mindgames it's useless." Well, what about being the smartest guy ever who knows exactly what his opponent will do, but has none of the skills to back it up. More or less, that guy is equally as screwed.

In high levels of play, if you can predict and punish your opponent by reading his movements, you are likely to do well. But technical mistakes are just as punishable and are just as deadly. So what if I know that every time I drill kick to shine with Fox you're going to try and shield-grab the d-air and I hit you with shine and wavedash into up smash? If I miss the L-cancel, my planning and mindgaming ability in that situation is virtually null.

On top of that, it's hard to know what you are capable of and what you are not capable of without a clear cut understanding of your own technical skill. If you know what to do but can't do it, what is that worth? If you try to do something that WOULD have worked but you screwed up, what's the point? I finally managed to win several games against an opponent who I had long considered to be better than me (he probably still is), but the reasons I won are as follows: First, I was able to figure out his course of action and respond to it. Second, I figured out how I could force him to what I wanted him to do, or at least to do something I could handle. Third? My technical game was spot on. And all that effort was nearly wasted because instead of shining him with Fox I forward+b'ed off the stage in a muscle spasm of worthlessness. Despite my general ability to discern what an opponent will do, until recently I have been killed by better players because of the mistakes I made. Solidifying my tech game (and believe me, I still have a ways to go) has made me a significantly larger threat.

Vir, "higher skills" are nothing without the foundation to back them up. Even if you can find a way to learn the former before achieving the latter, you will always be limited. You said it yourself, algebra seems really simple when you know calculus. But how did you ever stand a chance of learning Calculus without knowing Algebra? And how could you learn Algebra without learning arithmatic, and how could you learn to add and subtract without being able to count? Perhaps you forget how necessary all that is having reached a higher peak, but you are nothing without your basics. But as we also know, you can only get so far with basics.

We put a lot of emphasis on mind games over technical skill because when you see two high level smashers compete and one destroys the other, that's mostly "mind gaming it." But player 1 wouldn't have to out think his opponent consistently in order to destroy him if the other guy kept missing his l-cancels, right? Mind-games push you over the top into higher realms of play, but you don't reach the level beneath them without having a nearly flawless tech game. It may be easier to develop a tech game, but that doesn't make it less important.

Again... balance, balance, balance, balance, balance....
 

Emblem Lord

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Banksyayogame50: Nah its cool. There are literally an infinite number of mindgames and mindgame variants you can create. If someone copies me Ill just tweak my original mind game into something different and just as effective. Maybe even more effective then the original. Plus I'm a free knowledge type of guy. Its funny how poeple will readily share the technical aspect of their character and the game to others. Things like wavedashing, l-canceling, Float cancelling, Pivotting, etc. But when it comes to mindgames everyones is so hush hush! The way I see it, if I share my knowledge then we will all become great. And tournaments will be even more exciting because everyone will that much closer in skill thanks to the mind game knowledge they have attained. That would be the ultimate test of skill. Two players come together with equal skill and equal knowledge of mindgames so the only one who will emerge victorious is the one who can come up with the better mindgames on the spot and use them to their maximum efficiency. Although I'm sure that already occurs at certain levels of high level play. Like at the very highest level. (ken, Isai, NEO, Azen ,etc.)

Honour bound: The reason I think that we are putting more emphasis on mindgames is because great mindgames can beat great technical skill. But great technical skill can't beat great mindgames. Plus it's mindgames that push you over the threshold of becoming a great player not technical skill, just as you yourself said. We arent saying tech skill isnt important just saying that mindgames hold more importance. Yes you must have both to be a great player but mindgames always win the day. Plus there is really no limit to how many mindgames there are or how good you can become with them. There IS a set limit to how good you can become in terms of technical skill. Thats why I think most people here say that mindgames do hold more importance. But you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that you have such strong desire to defend it.
 

g-regulate

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Now, I'm not trying to say which between technical skill or mindgames is more important. They shouldn't even really be seperated, as they are both used together. Mindgames don't take precedence over tech skill, mindgames just takes precedence over lack of mindgames(which is what I think most of you mean when referring to tech skill as being less important.). My point is that great tech skill opens up more opportunities for better mindgames. Great tech skill is, in essance, the application of your mindgames. the greater the tech skill, the more menuverability your character has, making him faster and more mobile, and thus more able to act upon an opponents mistake. a mistake that, is not just something your opponent does wrong, but something you make him do wrong. A mindgame opens something up, finds a crack in the armor, and good application of tech skill uses the most effectvie combo/attack at the time, hopefully giving you a KO. Dashdancing, tech chasing, chain grabbing, they're great and all, but what's the point if they don't lead to a KO? They have to be used in a way to control your opponent, make them be where you want them to be.
 

Vir_Iratus

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HonorBound said:
Vir, "higher skills" are nothing without the foundation to back them up. Even if you can find a way to learn the former before achieving the latter, you will always be limited. You said it yourself, algebra seems really simple when you know calculus. But how did you ever stand a chance of learning Calculus without knowing Algebra? And how could you learn Algebra without learning arithmatic, and how could you learn to add and subtract without being able to count? Perhaps you forget how necessary all that is having reached a higher peak, but you are nothing without your basics. But as we also know, you can only get so far with basics.
Again... balance, balance, balance, balance, balance....
Umm... not sure if you were disagreeing with me or just ellaborating... but I know what you mean... It IS possible to learn the "higher skills" without learning the lower... but like I said, Its a LOT easier to learn the lower than the higher... so the likelihood that anyone would go straight for mindgames over learning basic moves is EXTREMELY unlikely in this case... I know I get frustrated if I know what I want to do in a game, but don't have the technical skill to do so... When I first picked up SSB64, I didn't know what in the world I was doing... but eventually, I got REALLY good with Pikachu, and even my older brother couldn't take me on... but unfortunately, he could take me physically, so I wound up with many bruises from playing the Original SSB... The same was true when I picked up SSBM for the first time... I was so confused by the different controller layout and all the new moves and tricks that I sucked really bad... but I still had the mindgame training from the original SSB, so I knew what I wanted to do, but I had no idea how to do it with all the new characters and moves... so before I could continue training to be better than anyone else, I had to get the technical skills down again... the point of this post though is to reveal to those who already have great technical skills the next step towards being the best... I like to think of mindgames as a multiplyer of skill level... If you were to put skill into an arbitray numbered skill system, like say, perfect technical skill = 5 perfect mindgames = 2 no mindgames = 1 and basic/no technical skill=1 then you could break players down into a number system that rates the likelihood of them winning... Its fairly common for smashers to have a technical skill around 4-5, but what seperates them from being players like Ken is having really good mind games... All players can potentially play at 10 (assuming 10 is basically perfection) no matter what character they use, meaning characters like Mewtwo that have limited technical capacity have to make up for it by increasing the effectiveness of their mindgames (meaning break the perfect mind game cap of 2 by being freakin' brilliant, something that is accomplishable, since this number system is arbitrary) Ken doesn't win EVERY match, even against characters that have a lower tier like Captain Falcon, so that means they must have outperformed him in mind games and had near perfect technical skill... The point is, the only way to take your game that extra step farther is to be able to outperform your opponent mentally...
 

g-regulate

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Vir_Iratus said:
to be able to outperform your opponent mentally...
i like this quote. you ever lose to someone who is clearly "worse" than you? Most people give johns like "he's not good, he has a weak style." and "oh he got lucky.". The only reason why better players lose to crappy players is that the better player tries to play his own game, tries to perform all his attacks technically correct, trying to do all the cool stuff they see in vids off the hub with precision. While spamming marths fsmash is a noob tactic that is easily avoided if you have half a brain, the crappy player will do this, paying no mind to his huge weakness. the "better" player who focuses on his tech skills and doesnt concentrate on his opponents wild fsmash spree (extreme lack of mindgames) will sometimes lose. whether or not the crappy player knows what hes doing, his fsmashs can get him the win because the "better" player gets punished for not being smart enough to get around them. the better player tried to win his own way, and didnt try to "create" (or in the case of crappy players, just "find") the successful way to defeat his opponent. the crappy player did exactly what he needed to win, his fsmashes broke down the "better" players game, whether he meant to or not. almost an accidental mindgame :)
 

Emblem Lord

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Good stuff Vir. Especially that last line. Mind games are the final step to becoming a great smasher. When you go to a tournament you can usually bet on your life that a good majority of the people there possess great technical skill. It's a common occurence for smashers at a high-level to have great technical skill. It isn't that common for alot of players to have great mind games at a tournament. Most of the time high level smashers won't make technical mistakes although it does happen on occasion, even to Ken and the other elite players. Still relying on your opponents technical mistakes and exploiting them isn't really a viable strategy at high level play. Mindgames however give high level players the means to break through their opponents wall of great technical skill and hopefully they will take thier foes stock and maybe even get a lead in the match.

HonourBound: I thought about it a little more and maybe saying that mindgames is more important wasn't really the right way to say what I was thinking. Your right in saying that a great smasher needs both and you need balance, so I won't say that one matters more then the other. But I will say what has already been agreed upon by pretty much every poster in this thread. Great mindgames is what will turn a high level smasher into an elite smasher.
 

KM-013

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ive always gotten 3 stocked by neos roy, but ive actually beaten his marth several times (albeit 1 in 4 times). i think that the post about lower tiers having an advantage against people who dont play against them is accurate. plus neos roy is probably the best low tier character in the world, that may also be why. =P
 

g-regulate

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i second that, roy is like ALL mindgames and neo's is the best example. Get vids of neo and azen to see what i mean, and wes too. Notice how they sequence all of their attacks just when they are needed, it almost seems as if they are disecting their opponent.
 

g-regulate

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I'm bored so I'm gonna post. and im gonna double post cause this is my thread and ill do what i want *****.

Let me elaborate on some of my points for a bit. I say that mindgames are created FROM your opponent. What I mean is that you must develop an understanding of how your opponent plays.
This information is derived from playing with your opponent. Try things out, seeing how your opponent reacts to your style of play. Find habits in his play, maneuvers that he tries in situations similar to eachother. Also, (if you're getting your butt kicked) try and see what he is doing that is working so well on you, and the ways he tries to adjust to your style. If you do something that is continually being taken advantage of, and even if it is technically done to perfection, your opponent is using a mindgame on you. Even though you are shffling perfectly, your opponent is finding, nay, creating your weakness.
I once knew a certain sheik (you know who you are) who generated a style around my play. My falcon would dashdance, and throw out knees and nairs at random times, in a fast and well executed fashion. This sheik was smart though, as where everytime i would come in for an attack, he would successfully time a wavedash back to a grab, which can mean pain and sometimes death for falcon.
While my falcons strat of nairs/knee/grab combos is the correct way to handle sheiks, just one simple mindgame makes MY execution of this strategy a bad one, due to the fact that i get grabbed everytime i land on the ground. So, how do you win?
Well, notice that this sheik wavedashes back when he sees you coming at him with an attack. So, you must counter with a mindgame of your own. Dashdance and try to sneak in a knee, but aim the knee a sheik-WD further. BAM, this sheik will WD right back into your knee. Or, when you start running forward, don't shffl anything, just run right at her, she'll WD back and try and grab, and grab her.
Another example of how doing something that isnt "character technical strategy" is way more effective.
Your movement caused your opponent to go right where you expected/wanted them, and that should gain you easier KOs. Once technical skill no longer becomes a factor, the constant collision of mindgames is what ultimately determines the winner. Think of the lack of perfect technical skill as a handicap, as where simple mindgames can intentionally punish a mistake made due to lack of technical skill.
 

D1

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I like that G-reg reminds me of times where I might do a runnin upsmash on an opponent w/ Fox and an opponent would wavedash back and forward smash...I'd just run next time even a further distance to bait a backwards wavedash and upsmash to beat out the move they were gonna do outta their bckwrdz-WD.

GOOD SH** G-REG STILL THREAD PWNZ!
 

Vir_Iratus

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D1 said:
I like that G-reg reminds me of times where I might do a runnin upsmash on an opponent w/ Fox and an opponent would wavedash back and forward smash...I'd just run next time even a further distance to bait a backwards wavedash and upsmash to beat out the move they were gonna do outta their bckwrdz-WD.

GOOD SH** G-REG STILL THREAD PWNZ!
OMG! I LOVE YOUR SIG!!! Did you make it yourself? Its freakin' hilarious...
 

Gravaton

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g-regulate said:
Let me elaborate on some of my points for a bit. I say that mindgames are created FROM your opponent. What I mean is that you must develop an understanding of how your opponent plays. This information is derived from playing with your opponent. Try things out, seeing how your opponent reacts to your style of play. Find habits in his play, maneuvers that he tries in situations similar to eachother. Also, (if you're getting your butt kicked) try and see what he is doing that is working so well on you, and the ways he tries to adjust to your style. If you do something that is continually being taken advantage of, and even if it is technically done to perfection, your opponent is using a mindgame on you. Even though you are shffling perfectly, your opponent is finding, nay, creating your weakness.
I once knew a certain sheik (you know who you are) who generated a style around my play. My falcon would dashdance, and throw out knees and nairs at random times, in a fast and well executed fashion. This sheik was smart though, as where everytime i would come in for an attack, he would successfully time a wavedash back to a grab, which can mean pain and sometimes death for falcon.
While my falcons strat of nairs/knee/grab combos is the correct way to handle sheiks, just one simple mindgame makes MY execution of this strategy a bad one, due to the fact that i get grabbed everytime i land on the ground. So, how do you win?
Well, notice that this sheik wavedashes back when he sees you coming at him with an attack. So, you must counter with a mindgame of your own. Dashdance and try to sneak in a knee, but aim the knee a sheik-WD further. BAM, this sheik will WD right back into your knee. Or, when you start running forward, don't shffl anything, just run right at her, she'll WD back and try and grab, and grab her.
Another example of how doing something that isnt "character technical strategy" is way more effective.
Your movement caused your opponent to go right where you expected/wanted them, and that should gain you easier KOs. Once technical skill no longer becomes a factor, the constant collision of mindgames is what ultimately determines the winner. Think of the lack of perfect technical skill as a handicap, as where simple mindgames can intentionally punish a mistake made due to lack of technical skill.
(Since this is my first post here ever I'll give a little background, name's Dave, been playing SSBM since it came out after a long SSB64 career, primarily a Cap'n Falcon specialist, play with a cadre of friends on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.)

I think what you're actually starting to talk about here is going beyond even Smash Brothers itself into a general theory of combat. Let me write everyone a novel and explain what I mean.

One of the things that leaves me terminally bored with many fighting games is their emphasis on technical perfection over player interaction. By this I mean that a single slipup on the part of either player leaves them open to an inescapable (if executed properly) combo on the part of their opponent. Speaking only for myself, what makes any sort of competitive game interesting is the mental interplay between myself and my opponent, not simply being able to push the right buttons in the right order with the right timing.

In any given situation your character has options for attack and defense. As you maneuver around the stage and execute moves, those options shift. As your opponent maneuvers and attacks, your options shift even more. Some become more profitable, some become dangerous and some become outright foolish :). And just as your actions and your observation of your opponent's actions are influencing how you view the potential effectiveness of your further moves, you must realize that your opponent is doing the same thing and be attentive to what your motions will cause the enemy to think.

As you said yourself, you were performing quite excellently a series of attacks that were the most generally effective against your enemy. However, your enemy didn't limit their thinking to "Well I'm Shiek...this is How I Attack, I'd better just do it." Instead they realized what your attack pattern was and, using their technical skill to increase their available options, managed to find a way to both avoid your assault and counterattack. You fought back by modifying the nature of your attack to prevent them from having that option, performing a move that would leave them thinking their strategy was still appropriate (causing them to execute it) while instead striking them.

In general, it's a very good thing to develop your own "style" when you play a char. It's going to happen one way or another, so you'd best accept it :). But when it's time to fight you have to be just as attentive to your enemy's style as to your own. In fact, the act of combat is constantly reassembling your style against the incursion of your enemy's technique. And when you're playing someone who's doing the same thing, that's where the fun begins ;)
 

Zeke

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Your posts here are 100% contrary to the opinion I have forumulated of your intelligence based upon every other post of yours. Congrats?! :|
 

InterimOfZeal

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GuardianSphinx said:
Nice post G-regulate.

I agree, technical skill only plays a part of a great smasher, a smart player could rule over a very technical able player, by smart i mean mindgames but also just knowing what moves go with what. Of course the elite combine the two.

Check out great smashers videos, the colorado smash crew went crazy with wavedashing and it got a bit boring and seemed pointless, Now if you were to watch ken vs isai you notice they don't wavedash much, and use their mindgames and Pivoting and things, which maybe don't look flashy; but they win them the game. (and it's good to watch too :) )
Yay, we were used as an example. For us, it was our own form of mindgames. We know how each other play (as most members of crews do), and so we try to do whatever we can to confuse each other. If it takes 20 wavedashes back and forth before one of us makes a mistake and attacks with a high lag attack, then that's what we'll do. Our mindgames really aren't that great, of course, but that's how we play against each other.

Still, I'm loving this topic, and am eager to try and refine my mindgames quite a bit more. Thumbs up, yo.
 

NintendoKing

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Wow. G-regulate was just tryin to open some eyes of the mediocre players of smash, and you guys sh** on him for presenting his ideas. Ellaborate on the topic at hand instead of trying to tear it down. Present some logical imput so that others may benefit from it.

I was just recently at MLG Vegas, and I got creamed in pools, I beat only like 3-4 people in my pools and got knocked to 5th place just outta contention for Brackets. I'm not making johns but hell I should have done better. I took out a couple of nooby smashers, and I noticed something intersesting in that time. All the players I beat had technical skill no doubt, but it was the way they used their technical abilities that allowed or denied them the chance to excel. Well I lied about the johns, I do have some johns, i hadn't eaten or slept in bout 2 days... kinda threw me off a bit, but meh...

An example would be: This guy Reg, great kid I liked him a lot and he was good at smash to an extent, was playing technical focks no doubt, but I pulled some heavy agressive mindgames on him that I think tripped him out so much that it caused him to pull of super mistakes. For instance I would come down off a sex kick and waveshine him, but I wouldn't stop with that waveshine, I would stand in place and waveshine a good 3-4 more times and then grab cancel out of a shine fthrow, shine spike. I kept his shield raised long enough for me to find a pinpoint weakness and exploit it, i.e the grab out of the waveshine, aka MINDGAMES. He was so overwhelmed with the onslaught of moves that the only thing that was prolly on his mind was, "I can't get out of this", instead of " How can I get out of this." Thus enabling me to take advantage of his doubt and pull a kill.

I agree that manipulation of a person's reactions are what cause great smashers to be great. Setting up a situation for yourself in which you can take the best possible advantage and exploit it for your liking, that is key to playing smash to its fullest.
:bluejump:
 

Fleur de Lis

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G-reg, I think your post says nothin' too new, but keep reading, because that's not necessarily a bad thing. In my opinion, this is something that's on the back of the mind of anyone who's been at this website for more than a few months, but no one has ever really articulated it well.
And really, it's an overlooked thing in Smash because you can't practice it by yourself. You can't sit down against a level 1 comp and say, "Let's practice how to predict my opponent". So what you said about mindgames beind dependent on the opponent is absolutely true.
With someone like Fox at these forums, I think people get way too caught up sitting down by themselves and saying to themselves, "Okay, I am going to practice infinites, waveshines, and shinespikes until my eyes fall out and my thumbs bleed" and they don't really realize that that stuff isn't worth it unless you actually create an opening against your opponent when you fight them.
So did anyone see the video of Ken winning the Japanese tournament?
In my opinion, this ties so directly with what G-reg is saying, because Ken has now earned the title of Best Smasher in the World, and in my opinion, it all has to do with a combination of mindgames and technical skill.
But the mindgames stand out the most. So when Ken beats this Bomb Soldier guy, at first he starts grabbing the guy, and basically just reacting to how Bomb Soldier responds when he's upthrown.
First he upthrows him and chain grabs, when Bomb Soldier figures out how to escape, he tries an upthrow to a Fsmash, and he misses, so what's he do next? he upthrows and then chases him with F-airs and U-airs until he's off the stage.
This is the opening.
Right after knocking him slightly off the stage, instead of chasing him, he just ducks next to the stage, because Ken predicts the Falco player to do the forward B dash right above him to recover. So then he fsmashes and the rest is history, Ken won.
You gotta look for mindgames, but they're the biggest part of all the best players' game.
 

g-regulate

Smash Hero
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One great strat is to aim attacks all the end of opponent's techs, rolls, and also aiming when they dont tech. The variations of teching and not teching can be taken advantage of if you can predict them right.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
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Fleur de Lis said:
Right after knocking him slightly off the stage, instead of chasing him, he just ducks next to the stage, because Ken predicts the Falco player to do the forward B dash right above him to recover. So then he fsmashes and the rest is history, Ken won.
You gotta look for mindgames, but they're the biggest part of all the best players' game.
Ha ha. Nah.

I guarantee you Ken was looking to down tilt his foward b sweetspot, but Bombsoldier missed the ledge and went over his head. It isn't always just about mind games at that level. Sometimes you just gotta get lucky.


-Syn
 

g-regulate

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but Bombsoldier missed the ledge and went over his head. It isn't always just about mind games at that level. Sometimes you just gotta get lucky.
im sure that falco knew that dtilt was coming, and to try and avoid it, went over his head with the over-b instead. sweetspotting the ledge is a huge part of fox/falcos recovery. it is intended to protect yourself from landing on the stage, and leaving you open for attack. the marth dtilt (when timed right) can interrupt this, either killing the falco, or forcing him to use another form of recovery instead. any other form of recovery leaves falco open when you land on the stage. yes, ken did get lucky, considering falco flew right next to him for the finishing fshash. BUT, it wasnt so much luck, as it was a mindgame, whereas the threat of his dtilt was probably the reason the falco didnt go for the sweetspot. technical skill opening up opportunities!
 

SynikaL

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g-regulate said:
im sure that falco knew that dtilt was coming, and to try and avoid it, went over his head with the over-b instead. sweetspotting the ledge is a huge part of fox/falcos recovery. it is intended to protect yourself from landing on the stage, and leaving you open for attack. the marth dtilt (when timed right) can interrupt this, either killing the falco, or forcing him to use another form of recovery instead. any other form of recovery leaves falco open when you land on the stage. yes, ken did get lucky, considering falco flew right next to him for the finishing fshash. BUT, it wasnt so much luck, as it was a mindgame, whereas the threat of his dtilt was probably the reason the falco didnt go for the sweetspot. technical skill opening up opportunities!

:confused:

I know all about the metagame regarding Marth edgeguarding Falco, thanks. My hypothetical wasn't the point, any number of things could have been going through Bomb's mind when he pressed over B. The point was simply that sometimes luck plays a factor in winning just as much as mindgames do. In this particular case, I think Ken got lucky.


-Kimosabae
 

g-regulate

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well im ****in sorry, i didnt mean to say that any point you made was wrong, nor did i mean to question your intelligence. i was just using this particular ken match as an example for the topic. but yes it is a fact that luck plays a factor in winning matches.
 

blinks

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I don't know if this stuff should be called 'mindgames' so much as it should be called 'tactics.'

Just like in any other game, you need to know the rules and know your opponent. Missing out on either one's going to mess you up. If you're technically amazing, but you can't figure out what the other player's going to do, or where they're going to go, you'll have as much chance at winning as someone who just sat down to the game for the first time but can read your mind.

As was said above, you need both technical and tactical skill. That's one of the big reasons for being familiar with characters from all over the tiers. You don't want to come up against a Mewtwo for the first time in competition and have your Marth beaten to a pulp because you don't know the other's move list. Know your enemy, right? Sun Tzu still knows his stuff.

Speaking of the Art of War:
Sun Tzu said:
"Thus those skilled in war subdue the enemy's army without battle ... They conquer by strategy."
"The general must rely on his ability to control the situation to his advantage as opportunity dictates. He is not bound by established procedures. A general prizes opportune changes in circumstances."
"To... not prepare is the greatest of crimes; to be prepared beforehand for any contingency is the greatest of virtues."
"He who excels at resolving difficulties does so before they arise."
"What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed: one cannot afford to neglect opportunity."
"Generally, he who occupies the field of battle first and awaits his enemy is at ease; he who comes later to the scene and rushes into the fight is weary."
"Now the reason the enlightened prince and the wise general conquer the enemy ... is foreknowledge. This foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirit ... nor by analogy from past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the enemy situation."
 

SynikaL

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g-regulate said:
well im ****in sorry, i didnt mean to say that any point you made was wrong, nor did i mean to question your intelligence. i was just using this particular ken match as an example for the topic. but yes it is a fact that luck plays a factor in winning matches.

g-reg chillax. I missed your point is all.



-AngryBlackMan
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Well this became a really long thread

I am sorry, cause I am not gonna read through a brazilian pages of stuff, so I am gonna throw my 2 cents in here.

You can also mindgame your opponents by manipulating their composure during a fight. For instance, doing strategies that annoy your opponent to no end (like getting mewtwo and using nairs all the time on a platform stage, it's really ****in annoying). Regardless if it is actually the most effective strategy in creating openings against your opponent, I believe it is always best to anger your opponent if possible. That will generally lead into easier baiting and other kinds of passive offense strats. This doesn't work on everyone though, some people have excellent composure, while others have strats (or in my case characters) that don't allow it to happen.

Other than that, the only thing I can really state is that simple baiting tactics used in repetition are the easiest way of taking advantage of openings. Something as simple as a combination wavedash and dash dance done at the right times over a long period of time with an occasional projectile or other form of teasing can work more effective then very elaborate plans. If you get skilled enough with this form of fighting you will be able to identify pretty well what attacks will leave them open for retaliation if they fall for a bait. When I play I always try to stay within wavedash range of my opponent so I will be able to wavedash in and take advantage of any mistake. That plus a standard knowledge of how people react to it after a while and adjusting to it make it quite lethal. Example: After taking advantage of the lag from an aerial attack a few times they begin to immediately airdodge upon landing. I watch out for that, and if I see it coming, or if I whiff a grab cause of it, I will then change things up by a run canceled down smash or some other delayed attack to take advantage of their dodge.
 
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