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DA MINDGRAINES: an Overview of Mindgames<----a post the doesn't suck.
- Thread starter g-regulate
- Start date
g-regulate
Smash Hero
oh yea i forgot about dodging, some people dodge like its theyre ****in job. I used to think it was annoying, until i learned to capitolize. most people who dodge a lot can be predicted very easily, as theyll dodge out of the shield after you attack them, or after an attack of theirs. I notice a lot of samus' i play will dodge, (sometimes multiple times) out of the shield after i do a shuffl'd knee or nair. While this is annoying, time strong attacks at the end of their dodge, and dodging will be their downfall.
I also agree with mook's point about disrupting composure. When a player gets in a rhythym, they play much sharper and get moves off easier. Chaingrabbing, tech chasing, etc., done well, can leave your opponent with a feeling of helplessness, as your clever mindgames can put him in a funk where he basically cant move. When your opponent cant get into his game, he wont be able to win.
Syn- didnt mean to be hostile man, ive seen you in threads and i know you know your **** when it comes to smash, and i know you love to debate so i was just riling you up hehe its cool man.
-G
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I figured that, if any thread, this problem of mine would fit here best. I almost view it as a self-mindgame.
When I'm practicing, my technicals are top notch, I never miss an L-cancel, I can DSHB with the control stick, waveshine, backwards SHB, Double Pill, Money Shot, you name it. But once it comes time to put my skills to use, I revert back to my "omfg wuts l cancel" play style. Inevitably, I get my *** kicked because of this. Has anyone else had this problem before, and if so, how did you overcome it?
When I'm practicing, my technicals are top notch, I never miss an L-cancel, I can DSHB with the control stick, waveshine, backwards SHB, Double Pill, Money Shot, you name it. But once it comes time to put my skills to use, I revert back to my "omfg wuts l cancel" play style. Inevitably, I get my *** kicked because of this. Has anyone else had this problem before, and if so, how did you overcome it?
Anomilus
Smash Lord
Yeah, I've been having that same problem, but I think I'm finally ready to defeat it and advance. Peaches is right. I've finally been able to play others who play competitively, but despite what I "knew", I was going over to play and leaving, butt kicked and looking sucky. The last time I played was the worst. I've been finally realizing that I'm "defeating myself", not just my opponents. Whenever I focused on the match, my opponent, and allowed myself to just fight, I wouldn't do half-bad at all. It's when I started focusing on what various techical skillsl and tricks I could use against my foe that I got beat badly. My focus wasn't where it should have been, and I would pay the price in more than one way: I'd lose badly, look bad, and without understanding why I lost, would focus even MORE on my technical abilities. A vicious cycle.
I'm ready though. I'm not gonna worry about my technical skills anymore during those matches. I know what I can do, and I'll use it when it's necessary, but for now I just wanna exploit my opponents. I've seen their weaknesses and have occasionally countered them. Now it's just a matter of allowing myself to do the such without distraction.
I'm ready though. I'm not gonna worry about my technical skills anymore during those matches. I know what I can do, and I'll use it when it's necessary, but for now I just wanna exploit my opponents. I've seen their weaknesses and have occasionally countered them. Now it's just a matter of allowing myself to do the such without distraction.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Hrm... That sounds like a good idea, and sounds like it might just be what was messing me up. I'm going to have to try that next time. Thanks!
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
It could also be that I'm relying too heavily on making a show with my technicals. Instead of focusing on the opponent, I'm focusing on moving as fast as possible... Right into their attacks.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
I think you just need to practice the technical stuff a little more. There is a gigantic gap between being able to do wavedashes/l-cancels/etc., and being able to actually use them effectively in a match. Many smashers can practice technical stuff against computers, which sharpens your skills. BUT the computer doesnt attack like a human would, a human usually has great technique and mindgames as well. Great tech skill in training mode wont prepare you for shine spikes, silly shiek combos, and chain grabs. I see this at tourneys a lot, where a kid will be pretty good, shuffling and wavedashing around, but they cant handle the pressure of a human opponent. Thats why i say that playing with people better than yourself, is the best way to practice. While you know the basics of good technicals, you should now try and practice doing the same stuff, only with a better human opponent, who will use techniques that a computer (or a noob) wont be able to do. Ask yourself, "How can i use these technical abilities to handle someone else with equal, if not better, technical skill?"
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Hrm... Sounds like good advice. I'm going to have to carry all of this with me to the next Smash get-together. Thanks.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
i love bringing this thread out of the ground because its better than all the other threads on this board. (no johns) Come on really, we gotta keep this thread up, would you rather read this or go back to the super awesome ssb3 thread? exactly.
Let me elaborate on an extremely important part of this game: Edgeguarding.
Think for a minute. Think of every time that you have knocked an opponent off the edge, ever. What is the % of times your opponent makes it back safely? That percentage should be low, very very low. Which brings me to my next point, ANYTIME your opponent is off the edge, you can KO them with proper mindgames. There is no one way to recover that magically gets you back on the ledge (peach and jiggly aside), so therefore you should be able to KO your opponent every time they're off the edge. When a good player 4 stocks you, he normally doesn't just beat you silly without getting touched, it mostly getting you off the edge and keeping you out there, for frustrating low% KOs. "But g-reg, that's teh cheepzorz!!11one" (crazy forum slang), yup, it sure is cheap. but if you haven't realized it yet, being cheap is the name of the game, so learn to edgeguard!
1. You must know the recovery methods of the character you're facing. This lets you know what attacks to use off the ledge, and when.
2. Edgehogging right is crucial, it can gain you most of your KO's if done correctly. I'd suggest practicing WDing onto the ledge. Do this perfectly, and you can put your opponent at a choice between the stage and the ledge, a choice observed and taken advantage of by you.
3. Keep in mind that most up+b recoveries have a winddown or lag time, which can be taken advantage of. Take your opponents ledge, they are forced to go to the stage. Predict where and when they will be on the stage, and quickly make your way from the ledge to the stage for an attack/grab/warlock punch/etc. lol
4. Opposite to #3, mindgames can convince your opponent that you wait on the stage for them, prompting them to go for the ledge. If you spot the time when your opponent wants to go for the ledge, practice getting to the ledge quicker than him. Good edgehogging can get you multiple KO's in a matter of moments.
5. Remember, always press R/L when edgehogging!!! They can't grab the ledge during the animation of you getting up.
6. my favorite, just go out there and get em! Be aggressive, let your opponent know that you don't f*ck around. Force them to work harder to recover. You don't even need to attack, just jumping around out there can throw them off to the point where you can take advantage of their reaction. be creative!
Let me elaborate on an extremely important part of this game: Edgeguarding.
Think for a minute. Think of every time that you have knocked an opponent off the edge, ever. What is the % of times your opponent makes it back safely? That percentage should be low, very very low. Which brings me to my next point, ANYTIME your opponent is off the edge, you can KO them with proper mindgames. There is no one way to recover that magically gets you back on the ledge (peach and jiggly aside), so therefore you should be able to KO your opponent every time they're off the edge. When a good player 4 stocks you, he normally doesn't just beat you silly without getting touched, it mostly getting you off the edge and keeping you out there, for frustrating low% KOs. "But g-reg, that's teh cheepzorz!!11one" (crazy forum slang), yup, it sure is cheap. but if you haven't realized it yet, being cheap is the name of the game, so learn to edgeguard!
1. You must know the recovery methods of the character you're facing. This lets you know what attacks to use off the ledge, and when.
2. Edgehogging right is crucial, it can gain you most of your KO's if done correctly. I'd suggest practicing WDing onto the ledge. Do this perfectly, and you can put your opponent at a choice between the stage and the ledge, a choice observed and taken advantage of by you.
3. Keep in mind that most up+b recoveries have a winddown or lag time, which can be taken advantage of. Take your opponents ledge, they are forced to go to the stage. Predict where and when they will be on the stage, and quickly make your way from the ledge to the stage for an attack/grab/warlock punch/etc. lol
4. Opposite to #3, mindgames can convince your opponent that you wait on the stage for them, prompting them to go for the ledge. If you spot the time when your opponent wants to go for the ledge, practice getting to the ledge quicker than him. Good edgehogging can get you multiple KO's in a matter of moments.
5. Remember, always press R/L when edgehogging!!! They can't grab the ledge during the animation of you getting up.
6. my favorite, just go out there and get em! Be aggressive, let your opponent know that you don't f*ck around. Force them to work harder to recover. You don't even need to attack, just jumping around out there can throw them off to the point where you can take advantage of their reaction. be creative!
Vir_Iratus
Smash Ace
Another good point... I like to play as Mewtwo whenever I want a challenge, and boy is it... even against a less experienced smasher using Fox... The best thing Mewtwo has going for him is his edgeguarding... that and an insanely powerful throw... and an awesome recovery distance... but everything else he does has to be EXTREMELY well timed... If perchance you manage to get your opponent off the stage (easiest done with a b-throw) then the best step to take after that is to edgeguard like crazy... usually by being extremely aggressive and jumping back after them with bairs... Since a second recovery jump usually doesn't have an attack put in it, you're fairly safe... The person recovering usually doesn't know how to react when you take the fight OFF the stage completely... and since they're disadvantaged by being FURTHER from the edge, they don't want to risk attacking only to end up screwing themselves over and hitting you back on... so their only hope is to attempt a plain recovery and pray that you mess up... I find that with Mewtwo's floatyness, its really easy to time his bair, and quite often, you can double bair them away from the stage... Now they're even FARTHER out with only a third jump move to recover... talk about screwed... it can really frustrate an opponent, and in turn, make their game worse...
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Greg, those posts were **** sexy.
But, nevertheless, people take the idea of mindgames as "just another thing to work on". Mindgames is the most important part of the game and you cannot succeed without it. You can succeed without ever knowing how to do Samus' SWD but you cant win without mindgames. The importance of mindgames cant be stressed.
Also, what I see a lot of people doing (and it isnt surprising really) is that they get into a sort of "trance" when playing smash. Their moves pop out as if they arent even thinking. They probably get this trance state from other games and apply it to smash. THIS IS THE WORST HABIT YOU CAN EVER DEVELOP.
Believe me, an opponent that doesnt have an ACTIVE mind in smash will lose. Talk to yourself in matches. Look at what your opponent is actually doing...dont just pop in an fsmash because he happens to be within distance...think about why you are doing the fsmash. Dont be purely reaction based. Dont do a fair if that what you feel like doin. Think about what is advantagous.
This might seem like it is too much to think about in one match. Over time tho, you get used to the speed of smash and your mind works faster. You can see the shffles. You can predict he will fair. It becomes quite easy actually. The only people that you will have trouble predicting within due time is really the top players (and, often, their styles shine through in matches...after seeing them play a lot you can see their style). Look at Ken vids. Can you honestly see his next move if you were the opponent? Ken is honestly the only person where I can never determine what his style is (no johns, its just true). That is probably why he succeeds.
Making yourself unpredictable is the next step after predicting and manipulating your opponent. I dont think many have reached this step at all...and that is what seperates top tier players and upper tier players.
I cant stress enough the importance of vids either. They are there for more than entertainment. Watch it for fun the first time. After that, look at one person and focus solely pn him. Find out their style (it would probably help if you looked at some local vids...knowing the people around you helps). Some are much harder to find out than others. It is the closest you can get to knowing someones style other than playing them (which you should do too).
Hehe..well, I am just a noob. I am hoping to take my philosophies to my next tourney tho (to tell you the truth, up till now, I did all of the things that my post describes you NOT to do). I doubt I can take these habits off, but it is definitely the first (er, second, after tech skill) step to becoming good. It will take time...
But, nevertheless, people take the idea of mindgames as "just another thing to work on". Mindgames is the most important part of the game and you cannot succeed without it. You can succeed without ever knowing how to do Samus' SWD but you cant win without mindgames. The importance of mindgames cant be stressed.
Also, what I see a lot of people doing (and it isnt surprising really) is that they get into a sort of "trance" when playing smash. Their moves pop out as if they arent even thinking. They probably get this trance state from other games and apply it to smash. THIS IS THE WORST HABIT YOU CAN EVER DEVELOP.
Believe me, an opponent that doesnt have an ACTIVE mind in smash will lose. Talk to yourself in matches. Look at what your opponent is actually doing...dont just pop in an fsmash because he happens to be within distance...think about why you are doing the fsmash. Dont be purely reaction based. Dont do a fair if that what you feel like doin. Think about what is advantagous.
This might seem like it is too much to think about in one match. Over time tho, you get used to the speed of smash and your mind works faster. You can see the shffles. You can predict he will fair. It becomes quite easy actually. The only people that you will have trouble predicting within due time is really the top players (and, often, their styles shine through in matches...after seeing them play a lot you can see their style). Look at Ken vids. Can you honestly see his next move if you were the opponent? Ken is honestly the only person where I can never determine what his style is (no johns, its just true). That is probably why he succeeds.
Making yourself unpredictable is the next step after predicting and manipulating your opponent. I dont think many have reached this step at all...and that is what seperates top tier players and upper tier players.
I cant stress enough the importance of vids either. They are there for more than entertainment. Watch it for fun the first time. After that, look at one person and focus solely pn him. Find out their style (it would probably help if you looked at some local vids...knowing the people around you helps). Some are much harder to find out than others. It is the closest you can get to knowing someones style other than playing them (which you should do too).
Hehe..well, I am just a noob. I am hoping to take my philosophies to my next tourney tho (to tell you the truth, up till now, I did all of the things that my post describes you NOT to do). I doubt I can take these habits off, but it is definitely the first (er, second, after tech skill) step to becoming good. It will take time...
g-regulate
Smash Hero
another point
Mindgames are the only defense against mindgames. Period. It doesn't matter how fast you are, how well you lcancel, how quick you move. Mindgames **** you. You must stay unpredictable, or the simplist of mindgames will destroy you.
The best example is mixing it up between dashdancing and wavedashing. While you aren't really going anywhere, you give yourself the ability to act at any time. This will keep your opponent on guard, making it harder from him to hit you.
If you ever do something that just doesn't work, or you feel that your opponent is reading you like a book, don't do it again. Try something else, something you haven't done. Do random shuffls in place, watching how your opponent reacts. Run up for a grab, and see what he does. Base your movement, shielding, dodging, and attack, on your opponent's reactions to your moves.
oh and P.S. PLEEEASE learn to DI correctly with your character. it makes me sad when good smashers get absolutely annihilated because they cant get out of combos.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Hehe, even more awesome.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
mindgames rock
I´d like to point out that once I figured out what is the percent for Ness to avoid being tippered from either bthrow or fthrow from Marth. I think that was about 36%. it means after/(if in my case, j/k) Ness reaches that point he can play it more safe and not DI. After Ness has been threwn just dbljump/ramble out of tumbling to airdodge to ground. If marth starts catching on (mindgames) he might try an uthrow or something.g-regulate said:
but this topic is very good and you reminded me of the important thing called empty shorthop, which I rarely do.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Here is something that is REALLY REALLY EASY but a lot of people actually forget. Watch your opponent, not yourself. You *should* know what you are doing and thusly shouldn't be the focus of your attention. It is a lot easier to figure out your opponent, set up proper spacing, and even intercept his attacks if you keep your eyes on them instead of your character.
Another tidbit. TECH CHASE PEEPZ! That's right, MINDGRAINE THOSE GRABS! It's a good skill to acquire and it can rack up damage as well as make your opponents feel helpless. Always, always, ALWAYS keep tabs on where and how they roll. If someone has a habit of teching to stand, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. If they are close enough, time a smash and hit them out of it, or run in for another grab. If someone tends to roll towards or away, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.
Even if someone watches his rolls and is smart about his rolling, you can still find ways that sets your opponent up for a lose lose situation. For example, I was playing my friends CF the other day with Mewtwo on Corneria. He was at 0% and we were both on the left side of the stage. I caught him in a few grabs and predicted a few of his rolls. I nabbed him again as he tried to roll, but he was getting closer to the fin's incline. I then threw him back, which got him really close to the ledge. Why? Cause if I threw him close to the ledge and I was near him, rolling back wouldn't be a good option, he would hit the ledge and continue his rolling animation. If he teched to standing I could easily WD to grab, and if he teched towards me I could easily grab him. He ended up teching towards me, I grabbed him, and predicted his roll, then grabbed him again and backthrew him to the ledge for a rinse and repeat. He got out of it shortly after that, but I had racked up a huge chunk of percent just cause I put some thought into it.
[Edit]
I'm sorry guys, whenever I post on this thread it becomes dead lol, dunno why, but it's true.
[/Edit]
Another tidbit. TECH CHASE PEEPZ! That's right, MINDGRAINE THOSE GRABS! It's a good skill to acquire and it can rack up damage as well as make your opponents feel helpless. Always, always, ALWAYS keep tabs on where and how they roll. If someone has a habit of teching to stand, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. If they are close enough, time a smash and hit them out of it, or run in for another grab. If someone tends to roll towards or away, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.
Even if someone watches his rolls and is smart about his rolling, you can still find ways that sets your opponent up for a lose lose situation. For example, I was playing my friends CF the other day with Mewtwo on Corneria. He was at 0% and we were both on the left side of the stage. I caught him in a few grabs and predicted a few of his rolls. I nabbed him again as he tried to roll, but he was getting closer to the fin's incline. I then threw him back, which got him really close to the ledge. Why? Cause if I threw him close to the ledge and I was near him, rolling back wouldn't be a good option, he would hit the ledge and continue his rolling animation. If he teched to standing I could easily WD to grab, and if he teched towards me I could easily grab him. He ended up teching towards me, I grabbed him, and predicted his roll, then grabbed him again and backthrew him to the ledge for a rinse and repeat. He got out of it shortly after that, but I had racked up a huge chunk of percent just cause I put some thought into it.
This is kinda off topic, but it goes along with what VilNess said. This works for Mewtwo, so it might also work for Ness too since they share the awesomness known as DJC. Mewtwo can do what I refer to as a "slingshot" with a djc bair. It's real noticible if you do a forward jump and DJC to a bair. It has to be at the right time for it to work, and I can't really explain it, but it isn't too hard to do. You get an unexpectedly large amount of momentum backwards when doing it. You can also perform the slingshot out of throws and avoid things such as Marth's fthrow > fsmash trick if you do it at the right percents. I am not too good at this myself, but it helps and I figured I would throw this out there.
[Edit]
I'm sorry guys, whenever I post on this thread it becomes dead lol, dunno why, but it's true.
[/Edit]
Meteor!
Smash Journeyman
Use the Mario Bros. down B no more than twice in a match. NOBODY sees that coming.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Doc's tornado=DEATH TO FASTFALLERS! ? How so?
hiho,
first things first: great post. really helped me.
But I need some mindgames with fox... i nearly never play against a good player, so i cant test them. in 2 weeks, i play against one of the best players in germany, and i dont know how to play.
first things first: great post. really helped me.
But I need some mindgames with fox... i nearly never play against a good player, so i cant test them. in 2 weeks, i play against one of the best players in germany, and i dont know how to play.
AC
Smash Journeyman
heh yeah it's the equivalent of dribbling a basketball with your head down to me. Relying on your peripheral vision and all that stuff.MookieRah said:
Good post. People(read: me) would do well to remember that when they play.
MprisM
Smash Journeyman
This here is the thread why I joined smashboards tonight. For sometime I've browsed smashboards as a guest wondering if I should join because it is all talk about how to wavedash or how to protect against yada yada. Well I figured I shouldnt, but I came across this thread. Me and my friends just found out about all of this stuff from the nintendo power that introduced it to us. Since then all my friends have been like "OOuuu wave dashing" and have been practicing it. And I did to, atleast to a degree.
But upon this thread I realized that I'm going about it all wrong, since then I have plastered my friends with the simplist of mind games that I came up with during play. Most of the time my mind games was to do something completely different than I'd usually do. Since this thread I've realized what makes pros pro and how I would become one. I dont intend to be in any smash tournaments ever, I've realized that it is to late in the game to become pro. But I'm still practicing to be awesome at the revolution smash. I shouldnt master dash dancing, whos to say the next smash will include this. The thing I need to know is mind-games. Even if not all the same mind games can be used in the upcoming smash, I will still know what makes smash...well smash.
This thread has been revolutionizing to me, and I'm sure to others who have read it. I hope this thread continues forever and always. ^_^
But upon this thread I realized that I'm going about it all wrong, since then I have plastered my friends with the simplist of mind games that I came up with during play. Most of the time my mind games was to do something completely different than I'd usually do. Since this thread I've realized what makes pros pro and how I would become one. I dont intend to be in any smash tournaments ever, I've realized that it is to late in the game to become pro. But I'm still practicing to be awesome at the revolution smash. I shouldnt master dash dancing, whos to say the next smash will include this. The thing I need to know is mind-games. Even if not all the same mind games can be used in the upcoming smash, I will still know what makes smash...well smash.
This thread has been revolutionizing to me, and I'm sure to others who have read it. I hope this thread continues forever and always. ^_^
Mew2King
King of the Mews
for C.Falcon vs Fox/Falco (or another C.Falcon) at 0-50% you might wanna try up throw (or down throw up I prefer though) + tap once towards them to dash at them, then do 1 of 2 things. Either, at the exact moment they land, do an dashing-up-smash (this way, if they don't tech, OR tech in place, it should hit them either way and pop them up in the air) or, after tapping once towards them, expect them to tech roll and tap left or right a 2nd time after seeing which way they tech roll. If you want to tech chase them and expect a tech roll, then do that, but if you realize that they tech in place and you didn't want that, then you might want to dash dance + grab or Nair them (since fox and falco usually shine right after a tech-in-place). In a falcon ditto if they do that and you don't expect it then dash dance behind them then JC-grab them from behind, that usually works for me. If they simply fall on the ground while you were expecting a tech chase, then either wavedash or short hop back and see what they do, or stand there, block when you see them move and if they did a get-up-attack it's a free grab. If you want to up smash them or Stomp + Knee (dair + fair) them, then start the short hop at about the same time as they land, and a little bit after you start it, then start the Dair then fast-fall it (and l-cancel it). This pops them into the air for a free aerial (usually a knee). However, most ppl expect a knee right after this, so they will usually DI up-towards you. If you know they will do this then Shuffle Uair them, so their DI will set them up perfectly for another Uair or Knee as well as hitting them closer to the edge and doing 11-13% from the Uair. Oh also, if you up throw them and they don't DI, or DI towards you, then you can chain grab them for a while starting at like 40% or so I think. (under 40% try jab + grab because they land too soon usually I think). From my experience, when near an edge and thrown toward the edge most people tech roll away from the edge, which is a trick that Ken uses to get free damage a lot after a down throw with Marth. If you are Falcon and you throw them near but not quite off the edge then the instant they land do a down smash and most things they do will make them get hit from it unless they tech roll toward the edge which is very, very unlikely.
For Fox vs Fox/Falco or a fast-faller then at 0% when you up throw up smash them wait a split second after they land and then up smash again. The reason for this is because most people either miss the tech or don't tech at all, and half the time they do tech it's a tech-in-place. I noticed that a lot of the time people are in air for a bit about to land they usually tech in place, and when they get hit with something quick like the landing from marth's down throw they usually tech roll because they don't have much time to think about it. Knowing what people do on instinct like this as well as what the "pros" do is very important to mind games. I noticed most "pros" like to tech in place a lot and when they land on the ground without teching they often do a non-attack-get-up-in-place without rolling nor attacking. This is because there is little lag in that and they think most people won't react fast enough to it. Another trick with Fox vs someone-lighter-than-marth-that-gets-knocked-over-by-Shine is to waveshine them, and, especially if they're near the edge, they often like to either roll towards you or do a get-up-attack. So what you should USUALLY do after a waveshine on someone un-wave-shine-combo-able is wavedash back right afterwords and from my experience you will usually hit. Even though experience is one of the biggest things I'm lacking compared to pros around the same level as me, the little experience I do have vs humans as well as vids of pros like Isai or Ken helped give me ideas of the mind games they use and why they do it, and after watching them a few times I realized a lot of the reasons they do much of what they do. If most people do it on instinct or habit, then abuse that and make them fall into your "traps." That's basically what mind games are (as well as all the tricks I just mentioned are good ones to try).
For Fox vs Fox/Falco or a fast-faller then at 0% when you up throw up smash them wait a split second after they land and then up smash again. The reason for this is because most people either miss the tech or don't tech at all, and half the time they do tech it's a tech-in-place. I noticed that a lot of the time people are in air for a bit about to land they usually tech in place, and when they get hit with something quick like the landing from marth's down throw they usually tech roll because they don't have much time to think about it. Knowing what people do on instinct like this as well as what the "pros" do is very important to mind games. I noticed most "pros" like to tech in place a lot and when they land on the ground without teching they often do a non-attack-get-up-in-place without rolling nor attacking. This is because there is little lag in that and they think most people won't react fast enough to it. Another trick with Fox vs someone-lighter-than-marth-that-gets-knocked-over-by-Shine is to waveshine them, and, especially if they're near the edge, they often like to either roll towards you or do a get-up-attack. So what you should USUALLY do after a waveshine on someone un-wave-shine-combo-able is wavedash back right afterwords and from my experience you will usually hit. Even though experience is one of the biggest things I'm lacking compared to pros around the same level as me, the little experience I do have vs humans as well as vids of pros like Isai or Ken helped give me ideas of the mind games they use and why they do it, and after watching them a few times I realized a lot of the reasons they do much of what they do. If most people do it on instinct or habit, then abuse that and make them fall into your "traps." That's basically what mind games are (as well as all the tricks I just mentioned are good ones to try).
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
m2k, totally rawkin' post.
Prism, it doesn't take that much to learn technicals, and they really do add a lot more depth to the game. Dependant on your character, you may or may not want to learn to wavedash. Zelda doesn't really need wavedashing. The one thing you should learn is shffl'ing, and it's lesser form, l-cancelling. Those two things will speed you up so much. Also, chances are pretty high that, unless your friends are all nimrods, once they master higher level play, they will eat you for dinner. I had a friend that beat my best character ALL the time with whomever he wanted, I learned high level play, and can now trounce him with Bowser, or whomever else I want, because he sees it as "cheap", dishonorable, not worth the time, etc etc., and refuses to learn to catch back up with me. I move faster than his Fox... with my Bowser. Think on it.
Prism, it doesn't take that much to learn technicals, and they really do add a lot more depth to the game. Dependant on your character, you may or may not want to learn to wavedash. Zelda doesn't really need wavedashing. The one thing you should learn is shffl'ing, and it's lesser form, l-cancelling. Those two things will speed you up so much. Also, chances are pretty high that, unless your friends are all nimrods, once they master higher level play, they will eat you for dinner. I had a friend that beat my best character ALL the time with whomever he wanted, I learned high level play, and can now trounce him with Bowser, or whomever else I want, because he sees it as "cheap", dishonorable, not worth the time, etc etc., and refuses to learn to catch back up with me. I move faster than his Fox... with my Bowser. Think on it.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
O_o...
M2K, you might wanna shorten that up a bit ... I think my brain would melt if I tried reading all that ...
M2K, you might wanna shorten that up a bit ... I think my brain would melt if I tried reading all that ...
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Bull****. Zelda necesitates wavedashing to speed her up. She has to be made fast, unless you intend to run around prego all the time.InterimOfZeal said:
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Eh, I use wavedashing for her as well, but she was the character I thought of that I use it with the least. Perhaps I use it a little less with CF, but I still wavefall a lot. I 'onno.
Meteor!
Smash Journeyman
Problem being her 7 frame jump that gets one of the shortest wavedashes in the game. So it doesn't really "speed her up" any more than a simple roll or dash.DaRkNeSsOfHeArT said:
The Newb
Smash Ace
G-regulate post ftw!
MprisM
Smash Journeyman
InterimOfZeal said:
HAHA well...I never said I couldnt wave dash, and didnt use it. As well as many other things, however I'm just saying that I'm trying to practice on mind games more than being the complete master of technicals. Eitherway I own all my friends. HAHA
(I figure that knowing the basics of these technicals that I can spend my time using them for mind games rather than spending all my time to perfect 10 consecutive wave dashes, when I only need a few.)
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
It does speed her up. WD is a good substitute for rolling because it allows her to space effectively. It's not her jump frames that causes her to have a short wd, it's her high traction. It allows her to get out of range for moves and then retaliate with a kick.Meteor! said:
SmashMac
Smash Lord
Nice explaination of mind-games and examples of them. I like the detail. I'll put this to use. Thanks.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Prism, if you can only do a few, you might want to work on it a little more. Though shuffling is truly more important... still; don't you want to play against players that aren't complete scrubs?
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
Go mind games!
Pichu Paizano
Smash Journeyman
Wow. I just came to check and see if anyone had responded to my post I made yesterday. Then I just realized my post wasn't here. Now I'm usually one to forget, I'll tell you that, but I swear I posted it. Go SB's, LoL. Dude, I think it's the mindgames; I'm playing them on myself. o_O I'll edit later w/an actualy response...
MaskedMarth
Smash Ace
here's my explanation of mind games and technical skill.
technical skills are what options you have available at any given moment. what do i mean? well, suppose i'm fox and i'm drill kicking my opponent. depending on my technical skills, some of my options would be to
- land from the drill kick and receive the lag from not l-cancelling
- l-cancel the drill kick and shine
- l-cancel the drill kick and wave-shine into a grab
- l-cancel the drill kick and wave-shine into another drill kick
if i'm a scrub that can't l-cancel, i only have one of these options, the first one. if i can l-cancel but i'm no good at following it up, i can do options one and two. if i have a little technical skill, i can also do option three, and if i'm particularly facile with fox's shine combos, all these options become available to me.
people with high technical skill can do more things, and can do these things more effectively (i, for one, am in awe at falco players that seem to shl twice as fast as i can. scrubby players are in awe at how average players can actually integrate wave-dashing into their games, instead of just doing it in training mode to show off)
mind games are simply how well you choose these options. for instance, if i'm using captain falcon, i may, at a particular point in the match, be standing on the ground in front of an opponent suffering from a little bit of lag (say, a link player who just whiffed a dair). i could grab the enemy link, or i could use falcon punch. a player who grabs has superior mind games to one who doesn't.
mind games encompass guessing games as well. choosing your options based on what you know the opponent will do is an aspect of mind games probably best seen in the edge game - the enemy sheik can either go for the edge or go for the land, and i can either guard the edge or guard the land above it. what do i do? well, if i can tell by the opponent's pattern of choices that he's going to go for the edge, then i edge-hog. i have better mind games than my opponent in that instant.
wave-dashing backwards to evade an incoming dash attack and counter attack is another form of mind games - if you know that the opponent is going to do something laggy that brings him in your range, you choose an option that gives you the greatest gain - avoiding the enemy attack and scoring one of your own.
however, if the enemy just keeps on running, you're at a bit of a disadvantage - in terms of maneuverability, the opponent gets the opportunity to cross you up and can react quicker out of the dash than you can out of your wave-dash. so there's a price to pay for choosing to w-d backwards, and knowing when and when not to wave-dash backwards is an aspect of strong mind games.
technical skills are what options you have available at any given moment. what do i mean? well, suppose i'm fox and i'm drill kicking my opponent. depending on my technical skills, some of my options would be to
- land from the drill kick and receive the lag from not l-cancelling
- l-cancel the drill kick and shine
- l-cancel the drill kick and wave-shine into a grab
- l-cancel the drill kick and wave-shine into another drill kick
if i'm a scrub that can't l-cancel, i only have one of these options, the first one. if i can l-cancel but i'm no good at following it up, i can do options one and two. if i have a little technical skill, i can also do option three, and if i'm particularly facile with fox's shine combos, all these options become available to me.
people with high technical skill can do more things, and can do these things more effectively (i, for one, am in awe at falco players that seem to shl twice as fast as i can. scrubby players are in awe at how average players can actually integrate wave-dashing into their games, instead of just doing it in training mode to show off)
mind games are simply how well you choose these options. for instance, if i'm using captain falcon, i may, at a particular point in the match, be standing on the ground in front of an opponent suffering from a little bit of lag (say, a link player who just whiffed a dair). i could grab the enemy link, or i could use falcon punch. a player who grabs has superior mind games to one who doesn't.
mind games encompass guessing games as well. choosing your options based on what you know the opponent will do is an aspect of mind games probably best seen in the edge game - the enemy sheik can either go for the edge or go for the land, and i can either guard the edge or guard the land above it. what do i do? well, if i can tell by the opponent's pattern of choices that he's going to go for the edge, then i edge-hog. i have better mind games than my opponent in that instant.
wave-dashing backwards to evade an incoming dash attack and counter attack is another form of mind games - if you know that the opponent is going to do something laggy that brings him in your range, you choose an option that gives you the greatest gain - avoiding the enemy attack and scoring one of your own.
however, if the enemy just keeps on running, you're at a bit of a disadvantage - in terms of maneuverability, the opponent gets the opportunity to cross you up and can react quicker out of the dash than you can out of your wave-dash. so there's a price to pay for choosing to w-d backwards, and knowing when and when not to wave-dash backwards is an aspect of strong mind games.