_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
I'd rather have it come out on frame 5 or so instead of frame 10...but whatever...
Oh and the wind effect being stronger would be nice as well...
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Dealing with annoying parts of a match up: Wolf and trained pokemon
- Thread starter _clinton
- Start date
Oh and the wind effect being stronger would be nice as well...
I had used my PSI Magnet against the Sandbag in the waiting room after beating the crud out of it and when I released the PSIM, the Sandbag was pushed further than it'd normally go. I wish it were that way against Ness' enemies.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
The push is based on position when released...the center of Ness is the strong point...
thesage
Smash Hero
The wind effect of PSI magnet is much more noticable on the sandbag than on actual enemies. I think it has to do with the fact that the sandbag is light? I dunno.
Also grouned psi magnet is stronger than aerial psi magnet.
Also grouned psi magnet is stronger than aerial psi magnet.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Its cuz Sandbag is an item. Items always fly much farther.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
Samus and Falco
Sync_
Smash Journeyman
Samus is annoying. No matter who you use, she'll always be annoying.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
Well...
Samus
Falco
Those are just a few of the things that I find very annoying... I find that nair works very well against those 2 characters. Also never try to spike Samus when she's above you. FYI, nair does well against Samus' dair. How do you guys deal?
Samus
- Zair
- Missile spamming
- Floaty, but heavy
- Grab release->dtilt
- Good spike (not better than ours, but easier to hit)
Falco
- Using SHDL at close range
- Jab->Grab->CG...
- CG->dair = about 60% handicap, sometimes death if you don't know how to meteor cancel
- SH laser->usmash
- Ftilt outranges Ness
Those are just a few of the things that I find very annoying... I find that nair works very well against those 2 characters. Also never try to spike Samus when she's above you. FYI, nair does well against Samus' dair. How do you guys deal?
Man of Popsicle
Smash Lord
I like using falcos spinny jab to utilt.
Gatling combo -> spinny jab -> utilt
And then he goes pewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpew.
Gatling combo -> spinny jab -> utilt
And then he goes pewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpew.
FightAdamantEevee
Smash Lord
Is the gatling combo avoidable? Because usually it's like dthrow cg > gatling combo, which normally gets me to around 40-50 %
Samus
You can't do anything about Samus' zair. The only thing that can deal with that is Pit's Mirror Shield, your regular shield and spotdodging. But even if you want to dodge it, you're bound to get hit by it. Her Missiles are the same way. Her Super Missiles are easier to avoid, but her Homing Missiles can get you. I assure you that it's easier to dodge those better than zair. But Samus can use both one after another, so basically you really can't do anything.
When you get close, you pretty much shut her down. However, she's got good tilts and her smashes have decent knock back. As for her floatiness and heavy weight, not much you can do there. A fresh back throw will not kill her instantly. People rely waaay too much on that. Her grab release can be blocked. You can shield it, but you never know when she's going to use it unless of course she continues doing it everytime she grabs you.
Her spike is pretty good. It comes out really quick and I love it a lot. There's not much you can do about that. Nair may be able to stop it, but that doesn't mean it'll never work, even if you do use nair against her dair.
Falco
I can't remember what SHDL is, but I'm thinking it's short hop dair? laser. Well, whatever it is, if he's trying to get you to use your PSI Magnet, don't. You're probably better off shielding that. I don't believe Ness can escape Falco's CG and if he can't, unless on wifi, don't bother doing anything. If he tries to get you off the stage, you're better off not doing anything, letting him dair you and then you can use your second jump. Someone probably has better advice for this, but whatever.
For his SH > Laser, use your PSI Magnet if he's at a distance. If he likes to follow it up with a Falco Phantasm, use your shield instead. If he's close to you doing this, use your shield. There is a possibility he could grab you, but there's also a possibility he might use his u-smash or f-smash. For his tilts, just do your regular procedure. SH > retreating fair. You really shouldn't let him get a chance using his tilts on you anyway.
Corrections are accepted. I usually find Falco easier to deal with more than Fox or Wolf.
You can't do anything about Samus' zair. The only thing that can deal with that is Pit's Mirror Shield, your regular shield and spotdodging. But even if you want to dodge it, you're bound to get hit by it. Her Missiles are the same way. Her Super Missiles are easier to avoid, but her Homing Missiles can get you. I assure you that it's easier to dodge those better than zair. But Samus can use both one after another, so basically you really can't do anything.
When you get close, you pretty much shut her down. However, she's got good tilts and her smashes have decent knock back. As for her floatiness and heavy weight, not much you can do there. A fresh back throw will not kill her instantly. People rely waaay too much on that. Her grab release can be blocked. You can shield it, but you never know when she's going to use it unless of course she continues doing it everytime she grabs you.
Her spike is pretty good. It comes out really quick and I love it a lot. There's not much you can do about that. Nair may be able to stop it, but that doesn't mean it'll never work, even if you do use nair against her dair.
Falco
I can't remember what SHDL is, but I'm thinking it's short hop dair? laser. Well, whatever it is, if he's trying to get you to use your PSI Magnet, don't. You're probably better off shielding that. I don't believe Ness can escape Falco's CG and if he can't, unless on wifi, don't bother doing anything. If he tries to get you off the stage, you're better off not doing anything, letting him dair you and then you can use your second jump. Someone probably has better advice for this, but whatever.
For his SH > Laser, use your PSI Magnet if he's at a distance. If he likes to follow it up with a Falco Phantasm, use your shield instead. If he's close to you doing this, use your shield. There is a possibility he could grab you, but there's also a possibility he might use his u-smash or f-smash. For his tilts, just do your regular procedure. SH > retreating fair. You really shouldn't let him get a chance using his tilts on you anyway.
Corrections are accepted. I usually find Falco easier to deal with more than Fox or Wolf.
Man of Popsicle
Smash Lord
shdl = short hop double laz0r.
PMKNG
Smash Ace
I havent played many good falcos/samus's here.
Can samus's charged shot/uncharged shot eat our pkt? Oo I've never seen it happen.
Can samus's charged shot/uncharged shot eat our pkt? Oo I've never seen it happen.
Man of Popsicle
Smash Lord
I think the middle of the charge shot can if it it's the middle of the pk thunder.
It's so slow I wouldn't worry though.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
I have a match where I ripped apart a PKT using Samus' charge shot...
Also speed wise as far as shot movement goes Samus' charge shot is faster than Lucario's aura sphere...
Samus also fires it faster and recoveries from the lag faster...
Rhyme
Smash Lord
For projectiles, iirc, both missile types explode on contact with Ness' upB and overB. I don't know if upB continues on for homing missiles, but I'm almost sure it does not for smash missiles. Zair can take out either upB or overB and still hit Ness. Ness players who I've faced soon learn that projectiles are of very limited use when you're on the same horizontal as Samus. But Samus is still succeptable to horizontal projectiles when crossing the horizontal as opposed to being in it, so we still watch out for that.
Close range never seemed to be much of a problem for me. Whenever Ness gets in close, I look for quick Uair/Nair/Dtilt to help reset spacing. Samus has options like downB, Nair, Zair, and even footstooling a shield to keep Ness from getting his grab off. If you avoid being grabbed at 115+ then Ness will have a much tougher time keeping up with Samus.
Ness will rarely if ever make it back onto the stage without taking damage of some kind. Timing SHZair to any tilt covers almost every option that a Ness has for reaching the ledge without getting hit (and airdodging through Samus usually nets you an aerial). Keep in mind that while Samus doesn't have any big-hitting horizontal knockback moves, if you let her get a rhythm down then she will push you off the edge regardless.
Samus has a surprising number of recovery options for avoiding even a skilled edgeguarder. Airdodge->Zair will allow her to avoid all kinds of spikes/overBs/upBs while also setting up the possibility to edgeguard/edgehog Ness' return to the stage. Some Samus players will get excited and try to hit with Zair/Bair, in which case you don't have much to worry about. If Samus is smart enough to use moves like weak Nair or unfinished Uair then you'll be dangerously low for a safe recovery (if recovery is even possible at that point).
I will agree that Nair is a staple in this matchup. It trades with many of Samus' main aerials and creates a good mixup with Fair for comboing. However, it never seems to combo as a KO move because Samus will never DI away at that high of a percentage.
I believe that the consensus in the Samus matchup thread is that it is a 50-50, but it's still open for discussion (I believe Xyro will tell you that it's more heavily in Samus' favor).
Close range never seemed to be much of a problem for me. Whenever Ness gets in close, I look for quick Uair/Nair/Dtilt to help reset spacing. Samus has options like downB, Nair, Zair, and even footstooling a shield to keep Ness from getting his grab off. If you avoid being grabbed at 115+ then Ness will have a much tougher time keeping up with Samus.
Ness will rarely if ever make it back onto the stage without taking damage of some kind. Timing SHZair to any tilt covers almost every option that a Ness has for reaching the ledge without getting hit (and airdodging through Samus usually nets you an aerial). Keep in mind that while Samus doesn't have any big-hitting horizontal knockback moves, if you let her get a rhythm down then she will push you off the edge regardless.
Samus has a surprising number of recovery options for avoiding even a skilled edgeguarder. Airdodge->Zair will allow her to avoid all kinds of spikes/overBs/upBs while also setting up the possibility to edgeguard/edgehog Ness' return to the stage. Some Samus players will get excited and try to hit with Zair/Bair, in which case you don't have much to worry about. If Samus is smart enough to use moves like weak Nair or unfinished Uair then you'll be dangerously low for a safe recovery (if recovery is even possible at that point).
I will agree that Nair is a staple in this matchup. It trades with many of Samus' main aerials and creates a good mixup with Fair for comboing. However, it never seems to combo as a KO move because Samus will never DI away at that high of a percentage.
I believe that the consensus in the Samus matchup thread is that it is a 50-50, but it's still open for discussion (I believe Xyro will tell you that it's more heavily in Samus' favor).
@ Rhyme: This is not a match up discussion.
@ _clinton: PK Jump is useless [unless your opponent is in the air]. I don't know about you guys, but all it has ever gotten me into was a world of hurt. As for trying to use PK Jump on Samus while she's trying to zair, it doesn't do justice.
@ _clinton: PK Jump is useless [unless your opponent is in the air]. I don't know about you guys, but all it has ever gotten me into was a world of hurt. As for trying to use PK Jump on Samus while she's trying to zair, it doesn't do justice.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Well...PK Jump's use is much better when throwing in Double PK Fire, lagless PK Fire landings, and Firebound
chimpact
Smash Lord
There's nothing you can do once you get grabbed. You just space really gay until 40% where he can't CG you anymore (I think for ness).
Hai shaky.
Hai shaky.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Actually Nair can help you break out of it somewhat after the 2nd or 3rd time or so if he doesn't do it 100% right...
chimpact
Smash Lord
But most falco's know how to do the CG perfectly.
Shaky
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
- Messages
- 695
Any video proof of that?
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Well...frame data would be better
xoxokev
Smash Lord
Ness can escape the cg after around 40%, but you should be expecting a dair right after. And if you're close to the edge, be prepared to meteor cancel. I usually just hold diagonally away and time an air dodge in case the Falco messes up. Thats about all the advice I have for Falco's cg...
This is off character, but is it possible to escape King DeDeDe's chaingrab? And if it's impossible, I have something to tell you guys. Don't ever spotdodge after you're in that grab. He can chaingrab you and then forward dash to kill you. Plus, avoid his u-tilt.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
You can only get out in the same way with with Falco's...he as to screw up...only it is worse with D3...because his standing grab has a lot of reach...
So that is why the match is harder than Falco's (who I think Ness has the + with a little...but whatever)
Rhyme
Smash Lord
I'm sorry. I'll admit to not reading the OP. All I read was,
and since that sounded like a matchup discussion, I assumed that's what was going on. Won't happen again. ((Should I delete my post?))
Rhyme
Smash Lord
Hey it's fine. I am the one who made the naive mistake, after all. So we'll just drop it if that's OK with you.
I'll try to stay on the sidelines for the Samus stuff that may come up, but otherwise I don't play Falco and only use Ness in friendlies.
For Falco it comes down to how well you can zone him in order to beat his annoying chaingrab and laser spam.
There are two things that can make Falco annoying: the chaingrab, and campy laser spam.
When I'm under 50%, I generally wait near the edge and for Falco to approach. Knowing most players will laser spam I'll absorb the lasers until he does. I will keep fighting on the edge so that if I get chaingrabbed there won't be much room for him to rack up damage and continue the chaingrab. Though this may seem odd I find it better to be chaingrabbed to the edge and spiked than to be chaingrabbed across the stage. The reasoning is as follows: If I get grabbed and chaingrabbed to the edge then spiked I know I can Meteor Cancel and make it back, doing this will minimize damage. (This may be risky for those who are just learning to Meteor Cancel). If I get chaingrabbed across the stage, I'll be wincing as I see my damage quickly go up to 50%.
After I'm at or above 50%, I take the fight to the center of the stage. Reason for this is because at this point the Falco chaingrab is no longer viable at this point and you will start being SH laser camped. Being at center stage will minimize the work of getting to a campy Falco and minimize the chance his long range/high knockback fsmash will KO you. Absorbing lasers at this point is not generally a good idea unless you know you won't be punished for it. When approaching the spam happy Falco there are 3 moves of his to keep in mind that he might use: reflector, phantasm, and fsmash. Be prepared to shield and punish when this happens.
The key thing to do to deal with Falco's annoyances is to zone the other player to different parts of the stage effectively. It took me a long time to figure out but I got in enough games in this matchup to say this strategy seems to work best.
There are two things that can make Falco annoying: the chaingrab, and campy laser spam.
When I'm under 50%, I generally wait near the edge and for Falco to approach. Knowing most players will laser spam I'll absorb the lasers until he does. I will keep fighting on the edge so that if I get chaingrabbed there won't be much room for him to rack up damage and continue the chaingrab. Though this may seem odd I find it better to be chaingrabbed to the edge and spiked than to be chaingrabbed across the stage. The reasoning is as follows: If I get grabbed and chaingrabbed to the edge then spiked I know I can Meteor Cancel and make it back, doing this will minimize damage. (This may be risky for those who are just learning to Meteor Cancel). If I get chaingrabbed across the stage, I'll be wincing as I see my damage quickly go up to 50%.
After I'm at or above 50%, I take the fight to the center of the stage. Reason for this is because at this point the Falco chaingrab is no longer viable at this point and you will start being SH laser camped. Being at center stage will minimize the work of getting to a campy Falco and minimize the chance his long range/high knockback fsmash will KO you. Absorbing lasers at this point is not generally a good idea unless you know you won't be punished for it. When approaching the spam happy Falco there are 3 moves of his to keep in mind that he might use: reflector, phantasm, and fsmash. Be prepared to shield and punish when this happens.
The key thing to do to deal with Falco's annoyances is to zone the other player to different parts of the stage effectively. It took me a long time to figure out but I got in enough games in this matchup to say this strategy seems to work best.
FireKirby7
Smash Lord
"Dealing with annoying parts of a match up talk one: Olimar"
More like, Dealing with Olimar.
Fair is actually a dangerous move when Olimar is grounded. If he shields, he can smash or grab you. DAS every fair you throw out. @_@
If he trys to throw a Pikmin while you recover, quickly nair them off and recover.
I find it best to recover low..... His Pikmin can't get you there. PSI Magnet will push away Pikmins too if they don't latch onto you yet. Uhhhh.......
Everytime I spotdodge a grab, I punish with jab or a tilt if I'm close. Nothing else will work, *(SH Nair works sometimes) there is a 98% chance he'll spotdodge grab/smash if you dodge any one of his grabs/smashes.
More like, Dealing with Olimar.
Fair is actually a dangerous move when Olimar is grounded. If he shields, he can smash or grab you. DAS every fair you throw out. @_@
If he trys to throw a Pikmin while you recover, quickly nair them off and recover.
I find it best to recover low..... His Pikmin can't get you there. PSI Magnet will push away Pikmins too if they don't latch onto you yet. Uhhhh.......
Everytime I spotdodge a grab, I punish with jab or a tilt if I'm close. Nothing else will work, *(SH Nair works sometimes) there is a 98% chance he'll spotdodge grab/smash if you dodge any one of his grabs/smashes.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
God...I wish Olimar was a larger target...
Anyway...I added Zelda because I felt like it...
They pretty much both fit the same mold anyway (defensive walls where the only thing you seem to be able to do is counter with a 3 frame jab up close aren't fun)
Also...I wrote up points on the last ones we did finally...although I'll admit some of them do seem a bit half baked (I mean if I'm going to talk about + things some characters have on others...I really shouldn't care about making a 3 point limit...some of them don't have even 3 things to look out for with their fight on Ness...and some of them have more)
So...I guess I'll post what I wrote in some special area when I feel like it...
Anyway...I added Zelda because I felt like it...
They pretty much both fit the same mold anyway (defensive walls where the only thing you seem to be able to do is counter with a 3 frame jab up close aren't fun)
Also...I wrote up points on the last ones we did finally...although I'll admit some of them do seem a bit half baked (I mean if I'm going to talk about + things some characters have on others...I really shouldn't care about making a 3 point limit...some of them don't have even 3 things to look out for with their fight on Ness...and some of them have more)
So...I guess I'll post what I wrote in some special area when I feel like it...
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
Zelda has some annoying things, like her Dsmash for example. At high percents, it compromises Ness's recovery pretty badly. For a 4-frame smash, it really does terrible damage to Ness. Din's Fire can give him trouble recovering too.
Olimar has...his grab thingy. The pivot grabs are like very sturdy walls for him. It is important to note that he doesn't have grab armor frames like other characters do. Therefore, grabbing at close range is dangerous to him. I wonder how effective PKT camping works here.
Olimar has...his grab thingy. The pivot grabs are like very sturdy walls for him. It is important to note that he doesn't have grab armor frames like other characters do. Therefore, grabbing at close range is dangerous to him. I wonder how effective PKT camping works here.