Dealing with annoying parts of a match up: Wolf and trained pokemon

[Kataefi]

This sounds very ambitious.... but I've recently pondered on the possibility that Zelda might be able to grab release > Sweetspot LK Ness if she buffers everything correctly. But this isn't legit though, so don't feel awful yet >.<

Nayru's Love comes out at frame 4, has invincibility from frames 5-11, and attacks on frames 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits). It's somewhat unsafe however.

DSmash can be teched if you DI down, though in general because it's a frame 4 attack, you'll simply have to predict; you won't be able to tech on reaction. Also, you can't really do anything if it hits you near the ledge aside from DI up and hope for the best. If you control din's, you can hit the head of his recovery without hitting ness himself, so it's a somewhat safe and very effortless means of ruining that.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Things to look out for from Zelda:
1.) Her Nspecial comes out at what frame again? Also...why does she enjoy getting hit by PK Fire up close (well as long as she isn't in the center anyway), but not far away?

If you hit Zelda with PK fire, don´t try to go for a throw or something like that. Instead use correctly timed PK thunder or Fair, Bair or Dair to maximize the damage you get done. Sometimes you can even try to hit Zelda with the tip of your baseball bat in her NL lag if she reflects the fire pillar.

2.) What move of her's won't kill again at 130 or lower? Also...why are they all so bloody fast again?

Watch out for D- and U-smashes. Seriously. U-smash is a great punisher and can be used for fast damage and D-smash just seriously owns due to its speed and the angle it sends Ness flying. LKs aren´t too big of a threat to you since Ness is fairly small target and has good disjointed aerial game.

3.) Off stage issues...from actually gimping her to why she has a few fun way of gimping you...

Good thing with Zelda´s somewhat predictable and punishable recovery is that it usually offers great protection against spikes because it has long range and she´s invulnerable during the teleport. Ness pretty much has no other choice but to predict between sweetspot and stage recover (unless Zelda tries to recover with double jump from close distance). Edgehog takes care of the first and later can be punished with many different ways. PK thunder is also good move in this case. It can be used to hit Zelda directly or, if she´s forced to land just above the stage, you can even get PKT2 to hit.

Input in the bold.

 

[Uffe]

This sounds very ambitious.... but I've recently pondered on the possibility that Zelda might be able to grab release > Sweetspot LK Ness if she buffers everything correctly. But this isn't legit though, so don't feel awful yet >.<

One more grab release and I'm done with this game.

Anyway, Zelda is fairly easy to deal with, unlike Sheik. With her Nayru's Love, you can do what was already mentioned or PSIM your way into the reflected PKF. And since your PSIM will then be lag free, just jump or roll out of it. When you recover, if she uses her Din's Fire, you can absorb it. If you're below the stage and for whatever reason Zelda uses her Din's Fire, just let it hit you so you can come back.

Her smash attacks are what bother me the most. I'm not really sure how to get out of those. Yeah, DI, duh. It's not that easy. It's not like Pikachu's d-smash. Some Zelda's might try to be tricky with ther Farore's Wind > fair/bair. Just block that. As for her d-smash, don't roll around her.

 

[g2g4l]

As a person who main Zelda and ness to me this isn'y a very simple match either way to me, I think that zelda will dominate the ground, and ness does the Air. The offstage game is just dependent on whos on top =) that funny. In a long range game Zelda's dins fire beats out ness, due to range and the versitility it has. Because a zelda can move while using it making punishment near impossible to a good zelda, unlike ness who has to be stationairy for all of his projectiles. But ness can do the PKT2 mind games to capitilize on the lag of all the special move of zelda.

 

[_clinton]

As a person who main Zelda and ness to me this isn'y a very simple match either way to me, I think that zelda will dominate the ground, and ness does the Air. The offstage game is just dependent on whos on top =) that funny. In a long range game Zelda's dins fire beats out ness, due to range and the versitility it has. Because a zelda can move while using it making punishment near impossible to a good zelda, unlike ness who has to be stationairy for all of his projectiles. But ness can do the PKT2 mind games to capitilize on the lag of all the special move of zelda.

Ness' PK Fire doesn't have to be stationary at all...the aerial version complements him so very well...Please look up PK Jump, Firebound, Double aerial PK Fire, and also notice the IASA frames Ness' aerial PK Fire has that lets him either land with 0 lag or jump and attack from it...still...long range wise...why would you care unless you are behind when it comes to Zelda?

 

[g2g4l]

^^^^^^^^ Still on that match. In the air Ness' speed and mobility will shine and out pace zelda, his Fair will ****, his Bair with the auto sweet spot will also help, nad all of his up close move has their combo purpose, which is a big problem for zelda. But remember that Ness shouldn't attack from above in the air or on the ground, zeldas attack from below both kill, and always be mobile becuz your a small target so it will be hard to sweet spot her F/Bair. The pure range and power zelda has on the ground can be a big fear for Ness so try to keep it in the are for Ness. And captilize on and mistakes on the ground.

 

[g2g4l]

Ness' PK Fire doesn't have to be stationary at all...the aerial version complements him so very well...Please look up PK Jump, Firebound, Double aerial PK Fire, and also notice the IASA frames Ness' aerial PK Fire has that lets him either land with 0 lag or jump and attack from it...still...long range wise...why would you care unless you are behind when it comes to Zelda?

As in he isn't able to move left of right during it. And it is even more dangerous to use it in the air. If it isn't timed just right zelda powershields or dodges or side step and Ness is in the Perfect spot to be Usmashed and thats a good eleven, twelve Dmg that could have been avoided or a stock gone

 

[Brinzy]

1) I'm not sure what you mean by enjoying getting hit by PK Fire up close... or maybe I am. If you're too close and you PKF, chances are I'm moving, so I'm already not in the center of it, and then I can Nayru's before Ness even gets to move again. Otherwise, she should just DI out of it.

2) Yeah, Zelda kills early. However, I cannot stress enough how important it is to attack Zelda at her blindspots when she is in the air... or to retreat fair. Zelda CAN lightning kick Ness through fair, even with her own fair (slower kick). Most Ness players use this move to be a wall of priority, but you shouldn't do that so much in point-blank lightning kick range because, as you guys know, fair moves into Ness and makes it even easier to kick Ness. Honestly, with this in mind, Ness's aerial game gets hampered a bit more... just a bit. You need to force Zelda to act first and act at a range that you like, but any Zelda that knows her spacing inside and out will be using jabs and Fsmash to halt Ness. Watch out for ftilt, too. Basically, you need to force a player-mistake to be able to attack safely, and you really need to attack her from an angle.

3) Recovery high if you can. I don't know about most Zeldas, since most don't face Ness, but I always aim Din's for right above Ness. Why? PSIM won't absorb at that distance, but PKT will ALWAYS be there when it comes out. Otherwise, Zelda should aim it to the bottom corner. I've never had Ness absorb my Din's and live because of all of that lag.

Ness can recover from being hit by it, but thanks to some research and some practice, it turns out that if you let this happen to you, Zelda can move while Ness is still in hitstun from Din's, so unless you're going sky-high and not dying, you're not really safe from dair or uair finishing you.


Zelda's recovery is fairly predictable. If you start up PK Thunder before she moves, what Zelda *should* be doing is using Nayru's to stall or possibly reflect the thing, Din's to trade hits or just get the hit, or Farore's to warp into Ness. If she warps on the stage, punish with PKT2. Other than that, it is straightforward.

 

[_clinton]

As in he isn't able to move left of right during it. And it is even more dangerous to use it in the air. If it isn't timed just right zelda powershields or dodges or side step and Ness is in the Perfect spot to be Usmashed and thats a good eleven, twelve Dmg that could have been avoided or a stock gone

He can move to the right or left while using it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z7OFvZI6mQ&feature=related

2:09 or so is what I was talking about for Firebound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myya7rcfO0&feature=channel_page

Here is a small list of things Ness can do in the air using PK Fire 2x...

 

[g2g4l]

He can move to the right or left while using it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z7OFvZI6mQ&feature=related

2:09 or so is what I was talking about for Firebound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myya7rcfO0&feature=channel_page

Here is a small list of things Ness can do in the air using PK Fire 2x...

Those are both very intresting move but the PK Jump that moves him left or right would still be in the range of a Usmash not the bulk of it but he would be hit, and that only if zelda wasn't watching him move slightly the she would just move under him becuz if i wasn't mistaken he still has quite a bit of lag after and the one with the backwards momentum is more useful on the ledge becuz still it doesn't move him very far back and still is very punishable. I never said Pk fire wasn't useful but looking at a long range game Ness(PKt and PK fire) Vs Zelda (Din's fire) zelda would win but if your playing smart it shouldn't come to that

 

[Uffe]

Not to sound like an ***, but can we keep this as a how to deal topic instead of a match up discussion?

 

[g2g4l]

Not to sound like an ***, but can we keep this as a how to deal topic instead of a match up discussion?

*laughs* =) sorry dude. But think of it like this untill we are all on the same page about what is a advantage and what is a disadvantage we can't deal with anything but My bad i will try to stay on topic. Where were we.

 

[Uffe]

*laughs* =) sorry dude. But think of it like this untill we are all on the same page about what is a advantage and what is a disadvantage we can't deal with anything but My bad i will try to stay on topic. Where were we.

How to get by a defensive Zelda, I think. I don't really know how to explain this sort of thing. I can only try and figure out this sort of thing while playing against Zelda. The only thing that bothers me is her smash attacks because I don't know of a way to DI out of it. At least her u-smash.

 

[_clinton]

How to get by a defensive Zelda, I think. I don't really know how to explain this sort of thing. I can only try and figure out this sort of thing while playing against Zelda. The only thing that bothers me is her smash attacks because I don't know of a way to DI out of it. At least her u-smash.

DI down and to the side is what I try...it has worked before...however like you said...the smash attacks are not like Pikachu's Dsmash...they are harder to get out of...

Anyway the one thing I think I can agree with you guys is the whole don't approach Zelda at her head...because Usmash, Uair, Utilt are all on her list of very *** kill moves...

I still see the aerial PK Fire moves as being ok if you are careful with them...and the ways Ness can move in the air do help (He can move forward...then either normal 2nd jump...or Firebound away...he can move backwards...and then forward...really the options he has with the Fire are pretty nice...forward, backwards, 2nd jump...and so on)

 

[g2g4l]

Approching her is diffcult it goes agains the nature of how we (I) play ness. But it isn't about speed here its about waiting. As much as din's fire is good it still has lag no matter what and you have to take advantage on the. To approch you get to a nice mid range out of reach of forward smash but close enough for Pk fire and you force her to approch or to make a mistake and use Din's fire. If she Fires you dash in shield the fire and punish accrodingly but retreat to the Air after wards or get her up and combo her. bu if you rush in expect a punish with a smash and if you wait she'll just rack up damange with Dins fire

 

[Brinzy]

Actually, being in distance for only PKF to be safe is his safest distance... but why would Zelda remain here?

Anyway, I've never had anyone perform anything significant with PKF against me, so I cannot comment on how useful they are against Zelda.

 

[CarVac]

I find PKF too slow to be much use, though when reflected at full range it won't hit Ness.

I just try to be unpredictable in the air when approaching. Don't let Zelda know when you're going to fair or jump over and bair. Or, jump backwards at her (as if preparing to bair), then double-jump behind her and fair. Just be tricky. With the aerial mobility, I find I can avoid smashes.

I think bair can cancel a Din's Fire, too.

 

[Brinzy]

That backwards double-jump fair will not work. Ignoring the fact that you're leaving yourself wide open to feeling pain, his double-jump is too slow and goes too high for that to work.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Anyway, I've never had anyone perform anything significant with PKF against me, so I cannot comment on how useful they are against Zelda.

best thing i've done on Zelda when it hit was Dair Ocho when he nayrus'ed it.

 

[Brinzy]

Oh, well that has happened to me, on both ends. I meant stuff like Firebounding and PK Jump.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh, well i just learned those and haven't applied them to an actual fight yet so i guess i have nothing else to say for now

*goes back to lurking*

 

[Gaussis]

Both PKF techniques aren't truly reliable though. They work, like once a match at random. The rest have to be placed well. And even then, Zelda can either jump or Nayru out.

Approaching Zelda does require some work. But approaching her is like approaching ROB, you have to look for an opening while you camp outside of her range. Ness can use PKF, dash attack, or fair against Zelda at that range. It doesn't have to hit, but you're looking for an opening mid to close range.

I don't think she has great OOS options though (or at least I don't remember atm), so you might want to capitalize on that.

 

[_clinton]

I don't think she has great OOS options though (or at least I don't remember atm), so you might want to capitalize on that.

Her 4 frame Dsmash, and Nspecial are the main ones that come to my mind...Dsmash will kill...and NSpecial is a nice 5-15% or so that you may not have wanted...

At least her grab is slow though...

 

[Half-Split Soul]

She also has really fast Bair OOS, U-smash, F-smash and D-tilt lock.

Her OOS options are great, but it´s not like they couldn´t be broken through. Your best bet would probably be Fair with its huge disjointedness.

And it´s true that her grab pretty much sucks, especially as an OOS option.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda does have a dash grab that rivals D3's grab range though >.>

 

[Brinzy]

I hate Zelda's grab so much. There's no reason for her to have the slowest non-tether grab, though I guess the range is decent.

Anyway I would actually suggest using dtilt and jab a lot more. Those two come out faster than the rest of Zelda's moveset, and considering you have to get close anyway, you might as well use those to the best of your ability.

I don't mean to make this sound like a match-up thing, but this is just for if the Zelda starts reading your fair and Din's/Nayru's through it or, for those who are skilled enough, lightning kick through it.

 

[_clinton]

I hate Zelda's grab so much. There's no reason for her to have the slowest non-tether grab, though I guess the range is decent.

It's their idea of balance...too bad she doesn't have any throws that are worth your time though to make up for it...

Anyway I would actually suggest using dtilt and jab a lot more. Those two come out faster than the rest of Zelda's moveset, and considering you have to get close anyway, you might as well use those to the best of your ability.

Zelda can Dsmash through Ness' Dtilt...unless it trips...

Anyway...I'm glad the Olimar mains felt like dropping by...I guess I'll move on...

 

[Master Knight DH]

Watch out for Olimar's Pikmin Chain. It can punish a particularly aerial Ness because of how sudden it is used.

Olimar is ideally attacked at a 30 degree angle, but you'll want to be wary of Olimars who cover that blind spot.

 

[_clinton]

So...what should be talked about now?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

vs dk

don't get grabbed (standing regrab ********-ness)
pivot pk fire
do a lot of aerials
and you should probably be vicegrip if you want to win

oh, and be careful not to stale you bthrow, dk survives it pretty well (130-37ish without upb braking, 150's with the brake) so you'll need it very fresh if you want to ko with it, bair works well though.

for stages, avoid japes if you like being able to ko, not sure how you guys do on RC/Halberd, but those are dk's shaky stages. just be careful, on halberd low ceilings + grab release dsmash = early kos, on RC there are certain parts with very short blastzones, so he might get a 30% ko

 

[Darknid]

plus DK can wall infinite you on RC..

even though delfino is a good Dk stage I recommend it if you're using Ness

 

[Brinzy]

Oh, I forget, do we need to choose stages?

Because Delfino is a complete Ness CP vs. Zelda

 

[TreK]

Things to look out for from Diddy:
1) Fruit and what he can do with them (as well as what Ness can do with them with his jumps)
2) His ground game being better than ours even without bananas (from the 0 cool down dash attack that makes him really hard to hit during it because of his easy smash access from it and all that other jazz)
3) Gimping him w/o KOing yourself as well

If this is what you focus on, here's how ness should overcome it :
1)reflectors make diddys feel pressured and diddy's a momentum based character. You have your fsmash (i know it's slow ; the thingis all mindgames). Other than that, shield predictable bananas and learn to get out of combos really fast ; escaping from diddy's combos once you're not in diddy's bananas anymore is easy. If you're high in %s and being banana locked, prepare your auto DI
2)your pkfire>our dash attack
your fair>our dash attack
you can shieldgrab diddy's dash attack
Seriously, don't fear it as an approach. In banana combos, you're screwed tho ; but you already knew that
3)Pk thunder > diddy. Most diddys will delay their recovery if they're threatened by a pkt, so he will have to recover from below, which means free edgehog or, if the diddy starts catching up on this and targets onstage directly, free punishment.
Your fair must be good at gimping diddy as well, but it could hit 2 times and cancel the broken barrels's lag.

 

[Uffe]

I currently lack a working Wii. So if someone could be as so kind to test something out for me, that'd be great. Especially if we're going to be talking about Donkey Kong next. I was told that if you hold up on the analog while on Donkey Kong's back, you'll be able to get out of his grab earlier than usual which would also be able to save you from getting Cargo Spiked. Now, I'm not sure if the character flings upward or still falls into grabbing position, but if they fling upward, then Ness really has no grab release to worry about. Thanks.

 

[PMKNG]

I also play DK and i've yet to see this happen. (tried it, but only with my gf trying it lol) I've heard it, but either way you can tech out of a cargo stage spike if you time it right

 

[CarVac]

@Teneban: Fair would do well for gimping (to prevent getting hit) but Nair only hits once (better for gimping purposes).

 

[_clinton]

Thanks to everyone who has added to this thread in some shape or form...

 

[Uffe]

Yoshi:

1. Eggs and why they have to have so many uses from from making people approach to hitting the run away button...
2. His 2nd jump making him almost impossible to gimp unless for some reason a Dair hits him during it...however still...he can counter you for any other move with an Uair or some other thing...so what can be done about it?
3. His aerial speed overall is the highest in the game and his Bair functions in the same way our Fair can function to a point.

His Eggs are annoying. Especially when he hangs on the edge and tosses them your way. Of course it's not foolproof when he does this. When you do approach, he'll have to get up eventually or he can get spiked. But back to his Eggs. Basically you're better off dodging them or blocking them. As for his second jump, nothing can deal with that. It's similar to Snake's Cypher but lasts much longer. As for his bair, I'm not sure. Does out outprioritize our fair or what?

Wario:

1. His aerial mobility being so much better than ours...which really makes up for the fact that he has range issues.
2. His KO options while lower in number than ours overall are very good...also do note that his Dspecial has special frames when fully charged.
3. His bike and how on earth can he pay for all of the trashed ones.

Wario air camps. He's somewhat like Jigglypuff, of course Jigglypuff does it better. For his air camping you can try to use PK Thunder around him, possible PK Flash, nair or fair. With PK Thunder though, though it can be canceled out by his many aerial attacks, you're at a safer distance, [or should be] and you can obviously tailwhip him. If there are platforms around, then this might make the match a little better for you.

Yes, Wario doesn't have as many KO attacks as Ness, but his can be pretty brutal. One thing to look out for are his grabs. He's got a grab release on Ness. It may be possible to escape these, but I'm not really sure. He's got one where he can grab Ness and then when released, use his f-smash. He's got one similar to his d-throw to f-smash as well. But I'm not sure if that's as effective. It might be escapable.

His Bike can be thwarted by Ness' Bat. Why you'd do this, I have no clue. There really is nothing to attempt while he's on his Bike.

Donkey Kong:

1. His grab release BS and why he has to have access to a Dsmash KO release as well as the other release stuff from the cargo thing...plus the fact that unlike with Marth at least...Ness can't take as much as DK...oh and DK has early % combos with his grab as well.
2. Bair...the move has more range than any of Ness' other air moves except maybe Fair (but Fair and Bair can trade).
3. His Uspecial has special frames on it that make ledge guarding him as well as just hitting him in general harder than it has to be...

For Donkey Kong's grab release, I still need someone to test what I had asked for to see if Ness flings upward out of his Cargo grab or if he falls back into grab position while holding up on the analog. It's said to make DK's opponents escape it quicker. As for his bair, it's a tough move to get by. If Ness' fair and DK's bair trade hits, you're better off getting Donkey Kong into the air yourself instead of having him already there. If he's already there, your best choice is to probably stay in front of him. Again, if these trade hits, you can either make the attempt to hit him first or you can avoid it altogether.

For his Up B, you can either make the attempt to spike him, use PK Fire or use PK Flash [while he's off the stage]. If he uses it in general on stage, then perhaps PK Fire could work, I'm not really sure. It's been awhile since I've actually fought DK.

Diddy:

1. Fruit and what he can do with them (as well as what Ness can do with them with his jumps).
2. His ground game being better than ours even without bananas (from the 0 cool down dash attack that makes him really hard to hit during it because of his easy smash access from it and all that other jazz).
3. Gimping him w/o KOing yourself as well.

As some of you may already know, Ness can nair grab Diddy Kong's Bananas. Of course it's not as easy as it sounds. But with good practice, it may very well be possible to do it consistantly. I do believe Ness has a weak glide toss and I think it works better in the air. I'm not really sure. I have a video of me fighting a pretty good Diddy Kong, but I have no access to the Wii at the moment. For now, I can't say much about this.

His ground game is quicker than ours, but without Bananas, he's somewhat easier to handle. Eh. It's been awhile since I've actually played Brawl and a good Diddy Kong. ): As for gimping Diddy Kong without KOing yourself? Um, not too sure on that part. Possible dair. Pillar spiking could help a lot. However, gimping Diddy Kong is easier said than done.

If any other mains come in here, feel free to correct any mistakes I have made or back your views up with facts.

 

[CarVac]

I stop Wario's bike sometimes with a dash-grab, or by jumping over him and bairing.
Make sure NOT to break his bike, and NOT to let him eat it or pick it up. That will hurt his recovery (the bike is ridiculous).
If it breaks, he can either use the parts as projectiles or use the bike again for recovery.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Aerials have no priority, only range and clank.