Defragmentation - A Breakdown of Stage and Opponent Percent (Fourth Defrag: 2/17/09)

[Sudai]

Bump because it needs it. I added a minor update to the D3 CP section (read: "The Norfair" portion)

Also, this post is going to be getting -much- better soon. Better formatting and more info. I just need to finish some small things up and it'll be updated rather nicely. : )

 

[Sudai]

Update coming rather soon. I've finally got some free time on my hands and I've added a bit, just need to finish a few more things before I put the new version up.


Sorry for the huge delays in this project.

 

[JCaesar]

Honestly it's the ROB boards compilation highlights video I'm more interested in seeing right now.

 

[jjvirus]

So are we holding off on contributing to this thread till Sudai updates it?

 

[Sudai]

Feel free to contribute if you want. I'm more interested in the Compilation vid too, but no one's contributing to that at all.. :/

(I have no johns, I just suck at recording myself...expect some after this weekend. :X)

 

[jjvirus]

Haha alright. I just didn't wanna comment on anything that hasn't been updated yet.

Atm, Im just wondering about CP'ing Japes against Kirby. I thought it'd be a good idea too, so I cp'd it against Chu's Kirby. He ***** the hell outta me. Juggled me through the platfrom, Kirbycided me into the water..it was hell X_X. I'm not sure if I just sucked that game or what, but Kirby ***** me on Japes =/ (no johnz)

 

[Sudai]

Who knows, your in put may make my opinion on a match-up change on a specific stage. XD

 

[JCaesar]

No offense jj but Chu is probably gonna **** you on any stage... he's just on a different level.

 

[jjvirus]

Yeah thats prolly true...lol

People say he prolly sandbagged on SV (which I won), then he cp'd Halberd..i got him down to 1 stock..so I wouldn't say I got ***** there

 

[Sudai]

Locking this and opening a poll to see which stage discussion should stay.

 

[Sudai]

This thread will be making a comeback in full force. I know a lot more about this game than I did back when it first died, so I should be able to fill out a good portion of it, however, input would still be nice. If you have a stage you think would be good for use versus a certain character, or a set of characters, please post what stage it is and what characters it's against as well as your reasoning.

Template:

Character(s):

Stage:
What Subsection it falls under (Neutral Avoid, Neutral to aim for, Stage to Ban, Stage to CP):
Description of why it's good versus said Character(s):



I will be changing the formatting on some of the stuff later (mainly just colors so it's easier) as well as adding a better intro and stuff. Yeah. I'm gonna be revamping this a lot. :x

 

[Talps]

Stage thoughts:

Fox - Longer stages lead Fox to use his blaster (which thankfully the gyro eats up for breakfast), any ledges lead to rising Nair's (his extra quick and high jump will even smoke you on battlefield's top ledge). The best in between neutral stage might be smashville, the moving platform letting you keep some distance and movement for charging your gyro and regaining momentum.

Conterpick? Well, his fire fox has a ton of vertical range (can survive from nearly the bottom of the stage at yoshi's, well off the screen straight down). Frigate is probably good for all the reasons it's good against falco, rainbow cruise might be another for not allowing him his short hop combos (i've been whipped by some excellent aerial combos, sh - dair - utilt- sh - nair - shine for spacing and full jump - uair killed me from 0 once. Fox has some nasty quickness).

Ban? Probably FD if neutrals are bannable, not really sure what the better CPs fox might choose are. I'll hop over to the fox forum at some point, I'm having trouble working out of his quick combos.


Lucario - Gimp gimp gimp and don't give him the side wall below the ledge to grab (not sure the term most people like, wall hugging?). I want to say he can do it on FD and Yoshi's Story, I don't believe he can do it on the other two but I'm not sure. Ledges are evil, he does great from below and can sh-dair from above. Neutral stage I would probably prefer smashville, but if he can wall hug on it I'd switch that to FD just to get away from Battlefield's ledges.

CP? Possibly lylat, would prefer if it didn't have the ledges. Rainbow cruise would keep him moving without giving him wall hugs, but aerials will become a problem and spacing extremely important.

Ban? I'd likely ban battlefield, if neutrals are bannable.

Thoughts?

 

[Cubone]

Neutrals​

Battlefield: Don't even think about taking him here. He will juggle you all day long if you get caught on the platforms.
Lylat Cruise: The best neutral to use without a doubt. The tilting messes with his recovery and the platforms are exploitable by you now without so much fear of him never letting you off of them.
Final Destination: He's good at stopping your camping if you let it become predictable but as long as you keep mixing it up it should still work fairly well.
Smashville: I'd take him to FD first. Iirc the blastzones here are smaller and you have less room to camp.
Yoshi's Island: I personally don't like this stage so I'm not too sure. GW doesn't do that well here either though if you are comfortable with it. The platform messes up his approaching without really providing much of a benefit.

Counter Picks​

Its hard to say, he performs well at the same places we do. Corneria and Green Greens should be avoided though, the tight blast zones will get you murdered and trying to approach on Green greens is a pain while camping from a side isn't much easier. Go where you are most comfortable and thats probally your best bet.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Lucario - Gimp gimp gimp and don't give him the side wall below the ledge to grab (not sure the term most people like, wall hugging?). I want to say he can do it on FD and Yoshi's Story, I don't believe he can do it on the other two but I'm not sure.

He can definitely do it on FD and Yoshis. He can't on the others.

Edit: Ice Climbers

Stages: CPs- Rainbow Cruise-Just throw her off the stage and sit back and watch as Nana gimps herself about 50% of the time. Its just too easy to mess with them on this stage. The onle risk is a walk off CG on the top part, but there are platforms there that you can walk on.
Frigate- Its lack of legdes can easily cause Nana an early gimp. Plus, the random stage flip has a chance of putting them into an off-stage situation, which is too easy for ROB.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

I would say your best neutral on sonic is Yoshi's Island. He cant stage spike you or get you under the stage with his spring. You also have a wonderful platform to camp under. For the chart, you should Camp........Camp/Poke........Camp/Poke.......Kill. You dont have many more options since sonic will always be running around and inevitably approaching you.

Avoid battlefield because if he gets under you the combos can be a *****.

Counterpick small wtf stages on sonic. For instance, Brinstar. Frigate can also be good if you are a cheapass and keep him on the right side of the stage.

You dont have to worry about many stages with Sonic, Just ban your least favorite stage

 

[Jamnt0ast]

I'll talk to Praxis about peach and post later since I'm probably the most experienced ROB in the matchup.

 

[Sudai]

Updated with things I've personally learned and taking Moot's, W'ever's, and Jamn's considerations in mind.

Characters updated:
GnW
Ice Climbers
D3
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Marth

Will do more later + formatting. Formatting really needs to be cleaned up, imo. x.x

 

[Cubone]

I would reallllllllly say Corneria should be your first choice to ban against GW. He can easily fill up a bucket due to the ship's laser if you leave him any breathing room. Factor in the tight blastzones with it and you can't expect to be living very long.

Thats assuming its legal.

BF is always a good choice to ban.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Pointing out some things about Ike:

1) His air speed isn't slow. It's tied with Toon Link's, so it can't be that bad. It's right around the middle IIRC.

2) I know of at least 3 Ikes that are perfectly fine with going to Rainbow Cruise, and one that will actually use it as a CP stage. Jungle Japes is the only CP stage that will wreck Ikes 100% of the time. Frigate is a fairly safe bet, but there are a couple Ikes who like that stage due to easy Dtilt spiking on the ledgeless part of the stage.

3) Don't let him take you to Pirate Ship if you want to live. >_> Ike's best stage by far. You can't gimp him, aether both protects from water spikes and helps to set them up, Dair works beautiful here, every single trick Ike has works here. Delfino is also another fairly good stage for Ike that ROB may want to avoid.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Ice Climbers:

Norfair - Again with the easy Nana-gimping. Add onto that, there is nothing ICs can do about ROB's infinite Up-Bcamping on the second transition and you're good to go.

Do you mean Frigate?

 

[Sudai]

Thanks W'ever.

Nidtendofreak, thanks for the input. I'll be sure to reflect that in my next big update. Though, regardless of if Ike players don't mind RC or not, it's still a great CP as ROB against Ike if Ike bans Japes or it's just not allowed period.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I was just saying it from Ike's perspective. I'm still poking around this board to get a feel for how ROB works, so I won't know much from ROB's perspective. Just be aware that Ike may have a trick or two up his sleeve here (like really early KOs on the top part of the stage....)

 

[JCaesar]

ROB's biggest strengths are his ability to gimp well and his ability to recover from anywhere on any map, so ROB mostly likes stages with wide boundaries so he can live forever (like Japes and FD), or stages where it's difficult to recover and easy to gimp (like Frigate). It's still matchup dependent, but both of these apply to Ike, since he kills well but is very easy to gimp.

 

[BoTastic!]

Just wanna add that Yoshi's sucks for Rob against snake.

Utilt through platform.
Snake can actually camp rob here.
Small walls, so ftilt kills fast.
Not much room to camp.

 

[noodles]

Great Advice On Peach Guys

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

Just be aware that Ike may have a trick or two up his sleeve here (like really early KOs on the top part of the stage....)

All of Ikes KOs are really early lol

 

[heytallman]

I have a few inputs on Lucas, if I may.

As for neutral stages, myself and quite a few other Lucas mains hate Yoshi's Island. The stage messes with a lot of things Lucas can do. But FD is another stage that Lucas doesn't particularly shine on.

Lucases do like Battlefield and Smashville, so you guys were spot on there.

As for counterpick stages, I don't really have much experience on Castle Siege, but I wouldn't think it to be TOO bad for Lucas. Saying he's easily gimpable isn't the most accurate sentence ever, because Lucas does have quite a few tricks to get back to the stage, and Lucas only really relies on PK Thunder when he HAS to. For counterpick stages, I always ban Yoshi's Island for reasons stated above. ROB would probably do quite well on Frigate, as on the first transformation, Lucas can't rely on his tether on the right side, and would be forced to use alternative ways to recover, including PK thunder, which you can capitalize on. Japes would also probably be good against Lucas

As for Lucas' counterpicks, I've seen varied things. Where it's legal, Corneria would be a stage to watch out for, as Lucas can recover A LOT on the main gun/Arwing. I always try to counterpick this stage (sans where it's not legal). As for a universal counterpick, I have seen many Lucas players going to Brinstar (got this stage picked against my ROB against another Lucas and he did rather well). Lucas seems to do quite well there, even though ROB does fairly well there, too.

Hope you guys think this is some good input, just trying to help out where I can!

 

[ZOM~B]

Luigi

Preferred Neutral Stage: Final Destination (Camp him/run)
Neutral Stage to Avoid: Battlefield (Luigi does great with platforms)
Counterpick Options: Rainbow Cruise (Luigi doesn't do too hot on this stage due to his poor recovery and air speed.)
Ban Options: Halberd (Pass through main platform gives Luigi a LOT more options recovering, AND there's a low ceiling. Luigi almost always kills off the top)

Honorable Mention to Frigate Orpheon... but he can still recover on the right side with the tornado, and the stage has a low ceiling... I'm not sure how I feel about the stage in the matchup.

Thought I'd help out some since I get to play a **** good Luigi on a semi-regular basis.

 

[jjvirus]

Someone fill something out for Wario

 

[DRaGZ]

It's funny how all of this seems so foreign after you're away for like...a few months.

But I can still wavebounce! >_>

 

[JCaesar]

Dragz where you been?

 

[DRaGZ]

I have been working at various labs and not playing Smash at all except with little cousins and with Wiimotes.

Brawl gets a lot more fun when you just stop taking it seriously, imo, which also makes me a little sad but whatevs.

On the other hand, I have been playing a buttload of Team Fortress 2.

 

[Wolydarg]

On the other hand, I have been playing a buttload of Team Fortress 2.

Do you play as the engineer? I'm just curious what other ROBs tend to play as =P

I used to play excluvisvely engy until I realized that no one likes playing medics and I kinda liked to win sometime >_>

And I also have to stop playing for a few weeks everytime they release a new class upgrade so I don't constantly have to see the same characters everywhere.

But I digress, I feel like I should post something on-topic here:

Neutral to avoid against Ganondorf = Battlefield

This matchup is like 70-29 in our favor but I still feel like I should throw that in there. Whenever I play as Ganon (I guess you could call him my tertiary) I love all the options ganondorf has compared to if he was on FD. His best aerial, uair (which beats our fair), is just amplified by all the platforms and because of Battlefield's smaller size it feels like Ganon has more control of the match even when he's being camped. There's less space to avoid getting tech-chased into more Gerudo's (side-b), and ganon's fsmash is a lot more disjointed than you would think.

 

[jjvirus]

Heres my input on ZSS, i just added my own CP if you wanted to put it in there. Im not that great at giving detail so if anyone wants to elaborate on what I, please do lol/

Preferred Neutral Stage: Final Destination
The flat surface of the stage makes it easier for us to camp, and harder for her to approach.

Neutral Stage to Avoid: Battliefield
Platforms are what ZSS does best. Up-B, Usmash, and Uair hurt ROB more here than any other neutral and possibly any other stage. Dsmash also hits through the platform leaving you set up for a nice combo from ZSS.

Counterpick Options: Jungle Japes - As long as you're camping on the side platforms like you should be you're perfectly fine. Up-B approaches are canceled due to water and little space between main and side platforms. Her Side-B is meh for her on this stage and the extremely high ceiling pretty much prevents her from killing you with Uair.

Ban Options: Norfair - More platforms = more recovery options = harder to gimp. Same strat that applies to BF applies here, platforms screw you over. Down B stalling is another specialty of hers here, watch out for it.

please correct me on anything guys

 

[JCaesar]

Do you play as the engineer? I'm just curious what other ROBs tend to play as =P

I used to play excluvisvely engy until I realized that no one likes playing medics and I kinda liked to win sometime >_>

And I also have to stop playing for a few weeks everytime they release a new class upgrade so I don't constantly have to see the same characters everywhere.

<-- Pyro, sometimes Scout in the first few rounds for certain maps.

Sorry for off-topicness, couldn't resist

 

[Player-1]

Diddy's are discussing ROB for stage discussion. I was looking at your thing for Diddy and I noticed you have BF and FD for CP then Ban. I, personally, would rather take ROB to battlefield than FD, but I don't feel like making my reasons here on the ROB boards, rather do it on the Diddy boards because we're discussing ROB specifically.

I also couldn't come up with any non-neutral stages for Diddy to CP against ROB. I considered Norfair/Brinstar/Distant Planet as a few, but I don't see a large enough advantage for Diddy on either of these stages for them to be considered a cp.

 

[HugS™]

I'm strongly against the idea that platforms benefit Olimar more so than ROB. Battlefield should be the neutral of choice, if not Smashville.

They are like a filter that prevents his pikmin from reaching you at certain angles. And it's even worse when you have a spinning gyro up there.

I am also strongly against FD being the favorable neutral vs DDD. Platforms hurt him more than they hurt us, and have we forgotten how big FD is? You know how much longer it would take to kill him on FD than it would take on Battlefield? Imo battlefield is the Neutral of choice vs DDD, and FD is the one to avoid.

 

[Mr.E]

Considering the ease of punishing Dedede's Up-B, stage boundary size isn't terribly significant beyond how long it allows ROB to live. FD is merely a balance between having more space to camp (or recover high) and more ground to be chaingrabbed across. I agree with you personally, juggling D3 under the protection of a platform is awesome, but I wouldn't call someone out because they preferred the extra space of FD. Where you ultimately end up also depends on your opponent's stage strikes.

I don't like platforms against Olimar. Not only do I find a normal grounded Gyro most useful here -- it discouraging shield-camping for grabs and sometimes blocks standard SH pikmin spam -- but it's also much easier than sticking it on a platform. Olimar's great upward attacks can also abuse ROB from below more easily than vice-versa. That said, Smashville is great, as the moving platform is useful for some trixies but stays out of the way enough that Olimar can't really exploit all the abuses ROB typically takes from beneath.

blagh blagh blagh opinions

 

[HugS™]

But I mean, if you're just going to be camping DDD on the sides, what difference does the extra space make? MAYBE 1 extra laser that he may end up shielding anyways? I think if you'd ask most DDD players, they'd much prefer FD over the other neutrals.

As for olimar, either way the platforms stop some of the pikmin spam. A gyro on top or in the middle just adds to the platform advantages. I'll try to record myself playing the match up to show what I mean.

 

[Mr.E]

Since Dedede is flat-out slower than ROB (and everyone else), more space allows ROB to avoid Dedede by jumping past him and landing on the other side, whether to continue camping or ensure recovery. I don't believe it's worth the risk of all that extra CG damage myself but it's something to consider. Battlefield gives ROB the high middle platform to land and recharge fuel on anyway, so it's surely superior to FD if you have the choice, but sometimes you just have to work with what you're given.