CJTHeroofTime
Smash Lord
Please do. That would be awesome.
-
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Defragmentation - A Breakdown of Stage and Opponent Percent (Fourth Defrag: 2/17/09)
- Thread starter Sudai
- Start date
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I play everyone, but mostly Scout and Soldier. Engy's really boring unless you're playing Payload maps, which I don't like, but I'll play whatever my team needs.
In that way, I play sort of like, always versatile, jack-of-all-trades but not really a master of none, doing whatever is needed to win the game.
In any case, I should butt out, I'm interfering with important R.O.B. business.
TEECO
Smash Ace
I understand that Japes is an excellent CP for ROB because camping is so easy vs most characters on this stage, but when its time for the kill, what is reccomended?
ROB approaching, lets say a DK, from the side of the stage leaves ROB vulnerable, and they probably wont approach you leaving THEM at the disadvantage (even more).
It would be sweet to hear from you guys as to what needs to be done to get the KO on this stage.
ROB approaching, lets say a DK, from the side of the stage leaves ROB vulnerable, and they probably wont approach you leaving THEM at the disadvantage (even more).
It would be sweet to hear from you guys as to what needs to be done to get the KO on this stage.
Sudai
Stuff here
BAir and FSmash KOs on this stage are too good.
If you're ahead though, why the hell would you bother approaching?
If you're ahead though, why the hell would you bother approaching?
jjvirus
Smash Champion
Fsmash, Nair (sometimes/situational), Bair, or if you're felling luck Dair (H)
TEECO
Smash Ace
I forgot to say, this was a badass post.
I would bother approaching because I dont want to just sniping a giant monkey the whole time, I want to kill him too.
I would bother approaching because I dont want to just sniping a giant monkey the whole time, I want to kill him too.
Sudai
Stuff here
The gyro and laser will eventually kill him. Haha.
lrn2cmp. Come on~
lrn2cmp. Come on~
TEECO
Smash Ace
Lol.
Alright, i'll lrn2cmp.
Here comes the easy stuff
Alright, i'll lrn2cmp.
Here comes the easy stuff
Sudai
Stuff here
I mean, you don't have to camp, but if you're ahead, then you approach, then you're behind, no complaining. ; )
TEECO
Smash Ace
No no, it makes perfect sense. If you're ahead, why risk getting even more ahead?
I'm on the same page. Camp the helpless monkey, keep your ground, and kill. Repeat.
Man that DK player would hate one of us ROBs.
Thank you Sudai, my questions were answerd <3
I'm on the same page. Camp the helpless monkey, keep your ground, and kill. Repeat.
Man that DK player would hate one of us ROBs.
Thank you Sudai, my questions were answerd <3
JCaesar
Smash Hero
When they approach you on a side platform (and if they don't, make them), just bthrow, and if that doesn't work, edgeguard, and if that doesn't work, fly to the other side and start over. They'll screw up the DI on your bthrow eventually.
TEECO
Smash Ace
This is going to be such win when it's complete.
I can't wait for Pikachu's part to be done, and a Char. discussion would be sweet too. Pikachu is one of ROBs worst match ups imo.
I can't wait for Pikachu's part to be done, and a Char. discussion would be sweet too. Pikachu is one of ROBs worst match ups imo.
ZOM~B
Smash Journeyman
Pikachu boards are convinced the matchup is terrible for them... I think it's about 55:45 ROB maybe. But I haven't heard a good reason as to why it's in our favor.
TEECO
Smash Ace
Whaaat? There noting really that we can crush them in.. Have you seen the gyro when its hit b electricity?
Id say 60/40 Pikachu, but thats just me and my crappy knowledge on this matchup.
Id say 60/40 Pikachu, but thats just me and my crappy knowledge on this matchup.
ZOM~B
Smash Journeyman
camp with lasers... cancel their camping (until they space for bouncing over gyro) with gyro. FTILT them, except when they downsmash. DI up out of downsmash making their only reliable kill move nair... you can shut down their aerial approaches with shieldgrab and ftilt. Just abuse your range (and not just camping range)
Sudai
Stuff here
I kind of quit Brawl so unless someone else takes over, I doubt this will ever be finished. Haha. :x
ZOM~B
Smash Journeyman
I wouldn't mind doing that, Sudai.
TEECO
Smash Ace
That helps ZOM~B, but a nice, big, juicy thread would be ideal. Lol
I always try to avoid FD because its just a field for pikachu to **** on with no boundaries. Literally.
Holynightmare gave me the advice to CP BF because of the help from platforms, we later came to the conclusion that Japes would be a good stage to take pikachu.
Just think about it
-High ceiling to live through that down B
-Platforms on both sides to camp
-Water will end him, along with the river god
Just seems so easy to avoid him on this stage.
Sudai >__>
I always try to avoid FD because its just a field for pikachu to **** on with no boundaries. Literally.
Holynightmare gave me the advice to CP BF because of the help from platforms, we later came to the conclusion that Japes would be a good stage to take pikachu.
Just think about it
-High ceiling to live through that down B
-Platforms on both sides to camp
-Water will end him, along with the river god
Just seems so easy to avoid him on this stage.
Sudai >__>
ZOM~B
Smash Journeyman
Personally, I HATE Battlefield against Pikachu. Because of the way the lightning runs around the platforms.
What Pika's do you play in FL anyway?
What Pika's do you play in FL anyway?
TEECO
Smash Ace
IRL, none. Not one.
(The good ones I can remember)
But online I've played Anther and kprime.
Theres really not that many pikachus at all. Maybe thats why the matchup is difficult.
(The good ones I can remember)
But online I've played Anther and kprime.
Theres really not that many pikachus at all. Maybe thats why the matchup is difficult.
ZOM~B
Smash Journeyman
Yeah... tbh with Pikachus there's almost really just Anther... if I ever travel up there I'll be sure to convince him to play lots of games with me
Sudai
Stuff here
Pika discussion thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6095425#post6095425
The Pika boards also did a ROB discussion if you want to read that. I don't feel like going find a link right now, but it shouldn't be too hard to find if you really want to read up on it.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6095425#post6095425
The Pika boards also did a ROB discussion if you want to read that. I don't feel like going find a link right now, but it shouldn't be too hard to find if you really want to read up on it.
TEECO
Smash Ace
Lol yeah.
Thanks again Sudai
I'm going to read up on that tomorrow
Edit: This is too good to be incomplete. :[
Thanks again Sudai
I'm going to read up on that tomorrow
Edit: This is too good to be incomplete. :[
Alfa
Smash Apprentice
The bits in red I shall elaborate on:
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - He can't keep up with the stage and easy gimps.
Norfair - Again with easy gimps on the right side and there is nothing Link can do on the second transformation aside from trying to pelt you with projectiles..which our FAir cancels.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp camp camp and screw his recovery with the water. The high ceiling also protects you from UAir KOs and Force Palm KOs with correct DI.
Ban Options:
Delfino - He can punish us in the water better than we can punish him in the water. The pass-through main platform helps his recovery out and the stage transformations will take away a lot of gimp potential.
1: Rainbow Cruise: Rainbow Cruise is a very good stage for Link, due to numerous camping spots and a plethora of platforms to prevent gimps, the only likely time you will gimp Link is when the top left of Rainbow Cruise is reached and there is the large main platform.
2:Norfair: Norfair comes up twice in the description, once as a counterpick option (shown), and once as a stage ban (not shown), and it doesn't transform, so I am assuming that this is actually a typo, and the intended stage is Castle Siege.
2.5: Castle Siege: Easy gimps on the first and third transformations, then outcamped by ROB due to range/statue interferance on the second transformation, a good counterpick.
3: Force palm KO's: Force palm isn't a commonly used Lucario move, it's laggy, easily punishable, and despite the beliefs of some, is not a chaingrab. It's only plus is the larger grab range than his normal grab. A Force palm KO would be a rare occurance at high level play indeed.
4: Delfino: Not a very good Lucario stage, aside from Lucario occasinally being saved by the transitions, and his advantage in the water, its an average stage (and the water advantage is minor). There is no where for Lucario to wall cling, unless it's a transition, and most of them are either walk off, swim off, or the stage is very close to the boundary, making the ability to wall cling almost entirely useless, as Lucario would've recovered anyway. Finding a good situation to use Aura sphere is hard, as most of the stages are not flat or have any open space. Yoshi's Island is a much better stage ban than this.
4.5: Yoshi's Island: A very good Lucario stage, very easy to recover, good aura sphere opportunities, and nothing to get in the way of comboing. Ban this stage, not Delfino.
And just 'cause:
Delfino as a Link stage summary: The rise-through platform and transitions help Link here quite a bit, and the unusual shape of the transitions/transformations/main stage doesn't affect Link much, as his projectiles can all fly at angles. A pretty good Link stage, but rarely seen.
TEECO
Smash Ace
Even though Yoshi's Island is a good Luacario stage, I would much rather ban Luigi's Mansion because he has a greater chance of staying alive in the house, making him stronger as he racks up damage.
The first story of the house also gives him tech chasing opportunities and Utilt ****. ROB isn't bad on this stage, but this stage gives Lucario a good chance of getting ahead of the game.
The first story of the house also gives him tech chasing opportunities and Utilt ****. ROB isn't bad on this stage, but this stage gives Lucario a good chance of getting ahead of the game.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Good read.
I'll post some extra information soon.
I'll post some extra information soon.
GwJ
Smash Hero
Defragmentation - A Breakdown of Stage and Opponent Percent (Picked up again!)
In an effort to get this thing finished, I've decided to get this thing back up and running. I'll probably do this at one character per week or more depending how active we are.
This thread is meant to be the collaborative effort of the ROB community (That's right, collaborative, don't be afraid to throw your two cents in. :D ) attempt to break down each match-up. Currently this thread contains a chart that tells you the best options to use at certain percents versus each character and a small break down of the stage options you have versus each character.
Now, onto the info!
________________________________
This chart is an IN GENERAl!! break down. There are exceptions where you should -not- follow the chart. IE: If you see a chance to gimp someone, don't skip it because the chart doesn't say "Gimp" (I hope you're not that stupid. :x] or if you're at a high percent and know you won't make it till they're at a high percent, don't be afraid to use kill moves [IE: UThrow for combo set-ups or NAir as a shake-off/punisher move). Despite being a ROBOT, we are blessed with great AI. USE IT.
________________________________
This list is meant to give general guide lines on stages that you should avoid and stages you should abuse. I will need a lot of help filling this section in. People should help. : )
________________________________
Stage Options:
Character:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
________________________________
Bowser:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Captain Falcon:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
lol
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
lol
Counterpick Options:
lol
Ban Options:
lol
Diddy Kong:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Battlefield - Diddy doesn't have great platform options while the platforms allow us to avoid bananas (or even steal them very easily with a rising FAir!), do some silly through the platform tricks, and limit Diddy's aerial approach a lot.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Final Destination - Long main platform means that if he gets you into a banana lock or banana chain grab, you will eat a lot of damage.
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Donkey Kong:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - The long platform is great for camping DK and making him approach you. DK does not have a good option to counter this. Be careful for Cargo Carry > BThrow stage spikes. They're pretty easy to tech if you get used to it.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Avoid this at all cost! DK has moves that can hit through platforms going either way. He also has low% UAir KO's if he can catch you off the top platform...It's like fighting a gorilla while trapped in a steel cage..
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Home field advantage? What? Naah. ROB can just pitch a tent on either side and DK is pretty screwed. DK had very few approach options before, but now his only approach options are NAir(lol), DKCopter(lol again), and BAir. If they're gonna BAir, it'll be obvious. Just make sure to save your laser once they get close so you can turn him around when he jumps up and now his BAir approach is gone. It's basically an auto-win on this stage.
Ban Options:
Falco:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Lylat - The platforms help to approach through lasers a -lot-. Falco also has worse anti-platform and platform defense options than ROB does so whenever he's up there, you're at an advantage but you're not necessarily at a disadvantage when the roles are switched. Depending on which way the stage is slanted, you are actually really safe from lasers and the slanting also makes recovery a tad bit harder for Falco. I'm not saying that you should expect the slanting to mess him up too bad, but it will mess him up a little.
Battlefield - The same platform things from Lylat apply here. Small stage also means hard for him to camp.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Final Destination - A good Falco -will- out camp you on this stage. The lack of platforms makes it even harder to approach them and the stage size just means you're eating more damage before getting to him.
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - If Falco recovers from the right side on the first transformation, you seriously need to rethink your choice of playing ROB. It's too easy to gimp him there. No laser camping for Falco on the first transformation due to the small size of the stage and the same goes on the second transformation but because of the dip in the middle. Do -not- bother camping the retreating platforms on the second transformation. It's way too obvious when the time frame for your projectiles are and if the Falco's ballsy enough, you might just get spiked.
Port Town Aero Drive - This normally isn't on the list, but it is one of SBR's "optional counterpicks" so I figured I should put this out there. The lack of ledges means Falco is going to be eating a -lot- of damage while recovering. You'll never fully be able to gimp him here, but it's really hard to gimp a good Falco once they get over 20% anyway so the extra damage is nice. The huge ceiling and far walls play nicely in ROB's favor as well. (I'm talking effing gigantic stage dimensions.) This is my counterpick of choice vs Falcos if it's available.
Ban Options:
Jungle Japes - That's right. We want to ban our camp happy heaven. : ( Falco has such better stage control and camping options than we do here. He doesn't even need to sit back on one of the small platforms. Also, if you get grabbed here, you're getting spiked. It usually doesn't make a difference because at the percents he can do it, you can meteor cancel before the water, but you still have to worry about getting spiked into a clap trap. I'm fairly confident in saying that Falco hard counters ROB here. To this stage I say "It's not worth the trouble."
Fox:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Game And Watch:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - The lack of platforms here means that GnW can't combo ROB as well as he can on other stages and the long stage makes poking and running easier for ROB. As an added benefit, though it won't happen often, it's possible for GnW to get caught under the lip of the stage.
Lylat Cruise - The smaller platforms means it's still hard for GnW to capitalize on his platform game. The stage also has the benefit of making his recovery slightly more predictable, but you shouldn't expect a good GnW to get caught under the stage.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
BattleField - This is probably GnW's best Neutral versus ROB. If he catches you in a NAir at lower percents, you can expect to eat 30-40% damage from NAir combos alone. Combine this with the fact that GnW has a much better platform game than ROB and you have a stage you don't want to be on.
Counterpick Options:
Comfort Stage - GnW is one of those characters that like the same things we like in stages, so just pick the stage you're most comfortable on.
Ban Options:
The GnW's Comfort Stage - Again, they tend to like stages we like, so if you know the GnW's likes and dislikes, ban a stage you know they like.
Ganondorf:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Camp central against a big and slow target. Need I say more?
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp central. Needn't say more.
Frigate Orpheon - Lack of a ledge on the first transformation + craptastic recovery = awesome
Rainbow Cruise - Ganon's slow movement means he's going to be chasing the stage a lot. Make sure you're on the other end slowing him down even more with your projectiles. Too easy.
Ban Options:
Ice Climbers:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - This stage is nice and long. Toss a mid-charged gyro in the middle of the stage and just laser camp. Their approaches are horrible against ROB since they can't do the standard desynched blizzard approach (laser will go through and resynch them) and with a lack of platforms, there's no easy way for them to get iceblocks to you while your gyro-wall is up. It's basically an auto-win on FD.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - This isn't a make or break stage in this match-up, but it's still just not fun to play against an ICs on. If done right and the ROB is unfamiliar with the match-up, they can go even with us in regards to camping by full hopping ice blocks off the side platforms. This isn't a big issue at all, but I don't like being camped so I always strike this stage.
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - It's extremely easy to gimp nana on this stage and once Nana's gimped, Popo is too easy to fight against.
Frigate Orpheon - Again with the easy Nana-gimping. Add onto that, there is nothing ICs can do about ROB's infinite Up-Bcamping on the second transition and you're good to go.
Ban Options:
Something that benefits their secondaries - There are very few stages that actually benefit ICs in this match-up and the few that do aren't that bad so long as you get a percent lead. If GreenGreens is legal, you might want to look at banning that, but that's not often legal and it's not that bad for us in this particular match-up as ICs have almost no aerial approaches over the blocks. At the same time, however, I don't know many ICs who play ICs only so you should probably ban something that would greatly benefit on of their alts.
Ike:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Another slow, easy target that can't do much about it.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Everything he has goes through platforms, need I say more? : (
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - The lack of a ledge on the first transformation makes it all too easy to gimp Ike. Camping the moving platforms on the second stage is also very, very nice considering Ike can't do anything about it without risking getting gimped all to easily.
Rainbow Cruise - Ike's slow ground, slow air speed, and poor recovery means that this stage is a -great- option vs Ike. He will be constantly trying to keep up with the stage while you're free to just sit at the far end and shoot stuff at him to make it even harder for him to keep up. If he does get to you? Just toss him off the level and start again. It's a vicious cycle for Ike.
Jungle Japes - If you find gimping Ike to be a problem for you, take him to Japes and just camp away.
Ban Options:
JigglyPuff:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
King Dedede:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Easy camping. You just have to make sure to keep yourself between him and the ledge. Don't be afraid to ledge camp here, just don't hang there too long.
Smashville - The short platform means you won't be getting chaingrabbed too much if you do get caught in one.
Yoshi's Island - The shape of the stage messes with D3's chain grab timing a lot. You can also refresh your kill moves off of the Fly-Guys (You'd be amazed how many people forget this.)
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - UTilt, UAir, DAir through platforms. It makes ROBs sad.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes Great because you just camp all day. If he tries to get close time an edge hug for invincibility on the inside ledge and then BAir him away, repeat. If he predicts it and doesn't attack, ledge drop to the ledge on the middle platform and read, then go back to the other ledge for invincibility and repeat until he puts himself in a bad position. If he decides he's gonna try to DAir you, ledge drop and go to the outside ledge of the small platforms. Too easy.
It gets even better if you're on the right side. **** gets too hot for you? Drop into the water and pop up on the other side. Get to camp again cause there's no way for D3 to make it there quickly other than doing the same thing which puts him in a -horrible- position because you're either gonna **** his recovery or just run back to the right side and camp again.
Playing the stage is the biggest part of this stage. Abuse ledge invincibility and the water. Take any chance you can to get to the right side. That's the side you really want to control. It gives so many more recovery options and escape options. Save your BThrow for kills or you can just save NAir and just wait forever to kill him with that. You shouldn't be getting hit too much so it really shouldn't matter too much how long it takes to kill him.
Norfair - No CG, easy ledge camping and I've seen D3s just Up-B over the lava wave. If they do that, easy monies. Simply airdodge through the lava wave and punish him. Just make sure you always stay below him. Gyro doesn't act as a stage deterrent here, but bouncing it off the lava can create some nice traps. Get creative with it. : )
Frigate Orpheon - Very small platform on the first form so there's virtually no chain grab. Just be careful of the temporary wall. The lack of a ledge on the right side also means punishing his Up-B just got that much easier. The sloping platform on the second transformation does the same thing Yoshi's island does to his chain grab.
Ban Options:
Delfino Plaza - This place is just horrible for us. We do fairly well on the transition platform, but there's just way to many transformations that have a walk off, a wall, both, or multiple of both. It is not a fun stage for ROB at all.
Castle Siege - The first transformation forces us into close combat while the second has a walk off in both direction. The first stage is manageable if you camp under the left-most platform and the second honestly isn't too bad if you stay on the flags and just play keep-away from his UAirs the entire transformation. I would advice destroying the left statue while standing on the right statue's platform and camping there as when he tries to approach from below, you can fly from flag to flag and he won't be able to keep up so long as that left statue isn't there. If you want, you can destroy the right statue as well, but that puts you at more risk while doing so.
Kirby:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Smashville - It's hard to camp Kirby but at the same time he combos ROB well, so what do we do? We take him to the most average sized stage we can. You can still peg him with projectiles here and poke at him a lot. You also have plenty room to try to avoid his combos and if he manages to steal your ability, you're not totally screwed. Kirby can and will out camp ROB on a long stage if he gets the laser. : (
Lylat - The low platforms are great for ROB and Kirby has, literally, one good through platform option: UAir. He's just short enough so that he can't reach through the platforms normally which is nice. You do have to be careful about rock mindgames here because the slanted stage means he can and will slide. Aside from that though, this stage seems pretty nice for ROB in this match-up.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Although Kirby approaches well in the air, it's predictable and can be taken care of quite easily when it's his only option. You also remove a lot of his silly throw combos meaning it's harder for him to rack up damage. Word of warning: DO NOT LET HIM GET THE LASER here. It'll mean that he has the advantage. If he manages to get the laser, hound his *** until you knock it out of him. That's all there is to it. Do not sit back and try to laser him. Do not get off his *** at all. I'm not saying do a stupid rush down obviously, but your top priority is knocking the star out of him when this happens. Aside from that though, the huge boundaries play well in ROB's favor. You can survive his FSmash much, much longer.
Ban Options:
Pictochat - This is one of those counterpicks that aren't seen to often on the list but is once again on SBR's "optional counterpick list." This stage is great for Kirby but not so much for ROB. You know how it looks like there's a bottom to the stage and we should be able to fly under it? Sakurai in his great wisdom decided to add an invisible wall so there will be -no- flying under the stage. There's a high ceiling so freak USmash KOs will be rare and if the Kirby can DI well, they can survive NAir to stupid percents. This would hold true for us too if it weren't for the fact that the walls are really close to the stage and Kirby's FSmash weren't so dang good. Kirby's nimbleness means he can get around the silly transformations much better than you too. Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Kirby's stoneform glitch on the right ledge is ridiculous. Invincibility + a constant strong hitbox? Makes getting back while on that ledge stupid.. :/
Link:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - We easily out camp him and the ledge makes his recovery even -more- predictable. You're gonna win on this stage unless you just get outplayed very badly.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - Link has nice platform play when below it and they allow him to poke at our blind spot much more easily. It also allows him to mix up his projectile approaches a lot.
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - He can't keep up with the stage and easy gimps.
Norfair - Again with easy gimps on the right side and there is nothing Link can do on the second transformation aside from trying to pelt you with projectiles..which our FAir cancels.
Ban Options:
Norfair - The multiple ledges makes recovering easier, and even if we do manage to gimp him, he has a chance of being saved by the lava. Also, he can bomb camp rather well here. Watch videos of Deva on Norfair if you want to see what I mean.
Lucario:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - ROB out camps Lucario and FD has one of the harder walls to wall cling on out of the neutrals. Lucario plays better on platforms than ROB as well and this gets rid of that issue.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Yoshi's Island - A competent Lucario can camp under the platform with FSmashes all day so long as they know how to powershield our projectiles. Combine that with the large wall to aid their recovery and it's just not fun.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp camp camp and screw his recovery with the water. The high ceiling also protects you from UAir KOs and Force Palm KOs with correct DI.
Ban Options:
Delfino - He can punish us in the water better than we can punish him in the water. The pass-through main platform helps his recovery out and the stage transformations will take away a lot of gimp potential.
Lucas:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Camping here isn't as effective as it is in most match-ups, but it's still doable. The lack of platforms also limits his approaches and a lot of his little Up-B tricks.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - The platforms tend to help him out a lot more than they help ROB, especially when it comes to recovery. The platforms also lend themselves to intant PKT2 attacks which will eat your shield or do a good amount of damage if you don't get out of the way in time.
Smashville - The biggest appeal for a Lucas here is the moving platform. This allows them an extra approach against us, DSmash on the moving platform will often shield poke and it is not safe to challenge it from below at all.
Counterpick Options:
Castle Siege - This is one of the few fights I like this stage for. The first transformation is good for gimps as the ledge messes with Lucas' recover forcing them to overshoot most of the time. The second transformation is nice because if you camp just behind a statue, you severely limit a lot of his approaches since most of his approaches are multi-hit, this gives you more time to move and punish. The third transformation is also nice for camping and gimping.
Ban Options:
Norfair - Lucas basically never has to use his gimpable up-b on this stage thanks to the multiple tether points and we can't camp..at all. Lucas can move from platform to platform faster than we can as well and his DSmash pointed inward on the platforms is deadly.
Luigi:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Mario:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Marth:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Yay for camping. The ledge also means he has to recover a certain way and he can't ride the stage at all so his recovery is a bit more predictable.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - This is another case of "ROB gets ***** through the platforms". Between Marth's UTilt, USmash, UAir, and perfectly spaced FSmashes, we're just gonna get gobbled up here. D:
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - First transformation is the usual easy gimps and second transformation is the infinite camping. Pretty standard stuff, just be careful not to get caught off guard when Up-B camping on the second transformation as Marth is capable of coming out at us.
Ban Options:
Norfair - Not many Marths think to take a ROB here but if you know they have the inclination to do so, I'd ban it. Marth is a character that's easily gimpable in the right situations and this stage just completely negates that. That combined with some stupid UAir and FAir strings going up the stair like stage..yeah. It's not too fun.
Meta Knight:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Ness:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Olimar:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Olimar's USmash and UAir through platforms hurt. He can also DSmash on the platforms to keep you from doing much more than a UTilt or USmash from down there.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - You can easily out camp him here, just don't be stupid, knock the pikmen off when they latch.
Frigate Orpheon - The usual reason vs tethers.
Ban Options:
Peach:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Pokemon Trainer:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Pikachu:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Pit:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
R.O.B.:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Comfort Neutral/Their weakest neutral
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Their comfort neutral/Your weakest Neutral
Counterpick Options:
Anywhere you know they have less experience than you.
Ban Options:
Anywhere you know they have more experience.
Samus:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
:shiek:Sheik:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Snake:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Easy camping. FD gimps if the Snake's not careful. No getting UTilted through platforms.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Snake can easily control the entire stage if you're not careful and he manages to set his explosives. Also, no one likes a UTilt through the platforms. : (
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Easy camping. You can survive UTilts very well here. It also makes it easier to survive FTilts with good DI (corners are higher so you won't be killing yourself by angling up too high)
Rainbow Cruise - So long as you control the right side of the screen while you're moving across the top, you're at a huge advantage. Be careful though, if he controls the right side of the screen, you're going to have to work to not get eaten by blast zones. Be careful of his DThrow on doughnuts.
Ban Options:
Lylat Cruise - He can UTilt through all 3 platforms and it's pretty hard to see his explosives. It's a lot easier to just keep track of them with your peripherals on less flashy stages than it is to actually try and remember where they are on this one.
Brinstar - Low ceiling for UTilts. Lava to prevent gimping (who needs to C4 recover when you have lava?). C4 set on the center bindings will last -forever- and have a slightly extended hitbox. His FSmash on the jelly connectors on either side also last a lot longer and has an extended hitbox.
Sonic:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Toon Link:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Wario:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Wolf:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Yoshi:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Eggs do -not- match up to Gyros and Lasers.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Yoshi's Island - Yoshi has a -lot- of tricks on this stage due to the slanted nature. Watch some videos of Bwett's Yoshi there and it's just ridiculous. Yoshi can move around certain parts so quickly.
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - It's not as great of a CP as it is against a lot of characters, but in my experiences vs Yoshi, this is the stage I've done the best on. The usual reasons too.
Ban Options:
Zelda:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - One of the few times you don't want to pick this stage and camp. You pick here because of the lack of platforms and the fact that FD likes to limit her recovery options. Zelda's too easy to gimp (or at least tack on a good bit of damage) if her recovery options are limited in such a way.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - She has a lot better platform options than we do.
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
ZSS:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - No ledge on the right side at the beginning. Easy camping on the second transformation.
Port Town Aero Drive - NO LEDGES on the main platform. Sure you can't gimp her due to track, but at parts you can gimp her and the parts you can't, it's free damage and it's easy to read the trajectory of the bounce so you get a free FAir, BAir, or NAir. Yes, most places ban it, but it is considered an "optional counterpick" under SBR rules, so I added it.
Ban Options:
Defragmentation Log:
07/19/08
- First Defragmentation completed.
- All characters added.
- Fragmented files found under: Meta Knight, Peach, Pit, Samus, Shiek, Sonic, ZSS
10/08/08
-Second Defragmentation completed.
-Added a section for stage selection.
10/09/08
-Third Defragmentation completed.
-Donkey Kong's stage section updated (Preferred Neutral, Neutral to Avoid, and Counterpick)
-Falco's stage section updated (All sections)
-Ganondorf's stage section updated (Counterpick)
-Ike's stage section updated (Counterpick)
-Kirby's stage section updated (Preferred Neutral, Counterpick, Ban Options)
-Marth's stage section updated (Neutral to Avoid and Ban Options)
11/6/08
-Minor Update to D3's Counterpick section.
2/17/09
-Fourth Defragmentation completed.
-Sonic's Options based on Percentage updated
-Game And Watch's stage section updated (All)
-Ice Climbers' stage selection updated (All)
-King Dedede's stage selection updated (Ban Options)
-Link's stage selection updated (All)
-Lucario's stage selection updated (All)
-Lucas' stage selection updated (All)
-Marth's stage selection updated (Counterpick Options)
In an effort to get this thing finished, I've decided to get this thing back up and running. I'll probably do this at one character per week or more depending how active we are.
This thread is meant to be the collaborative effort of the ROB community (That's right, collaborative, don't be afraid to throw your two cents in. :D ) attempt to break down each match-up. Currently this thread contains a chart that tells you the best options to use at certain percents versus each character and a small break down of the stage options you have versus each character.
Now, onto the info!
________________________________
This chart is an IN GENERAl!! break down. There are exceptions where you should -not- follow the chart. IE: If you see a chance to gimp someone, don't skip it because the chart doesn't say "Gimp" (I hope you're not that stupid. :x] or if you're at a high percent and know you won't make it till they're at a high percent, don't be afraid to use kill moves [IE: UThrow for combo set-ups or NAir as a shake-off/punisher move). Despite being a ROBOT, we are blessed with great AI. USE IT.
Code:
Character:..............0%-35%..........- 35%-70%........- 70-110%.......- 110%-135%.....- 135%-150%
Bowser:.................Combo...........- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Camp/Poke.....- Kill
Captain Falcon:.........Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Poke/Gimp - Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Charizard:..............Combo...........- Combo/Camp.....- Camp..........- Camp..........- Kill
Diddy Kong:.............Combo...........- Camp...........- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Donkey Kong:............Combo...........- Combo..........- Camp..........- Camp..........- Kill
Falco:..................Combo/Gimp......- Ledge Camp.....- Ledge Camp....- Kill..........- Kill
Fox:....................Combo/Gimp......- Combo/Gimp.....- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
Game And Watch:.........Combo...........- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
Ganondorf:..............Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Poke/Gimp - Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Ice Climbers:...........Split and gimp..- Camp/poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Ike:....................Combo/Gimp......- Combo/Gimp.....- Camp..........- Kill..........- Kill
Ivysaur:................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Gimp......- Camp/Gimp.....- Kill..........- Kill
JigglyPuff:.............Poke/Camp.......- Poke/Camp......- Kill..........- Kill..........- Kill
King Dedede:............Camp/Combo......- Camp...........- Camp..........- Camp/Kill.....- Kill
Kirby:..................Combo/Poke......- Poke/Camp......- Poke/Kill.....- Kill..........- Kill
Link:...................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/gimp......- Camp..........- Kill..........- Kill
Lucario:................Camp/Poke/Gimp..- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Lucas:..................Combo/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp.....- Kill/Gimp.....- Kill
Luigi:..................Camp/Poke.......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke/Gimp- Kill..........- Kill
Mario:..................Combo/Poke......- Combo/Poke.....- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Marth:..................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Meta Knight:............???.............- ???............- ???...........- Kill..........- Kill
Ness:...................Combo/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp......- Poke/Gimp.....- Kill..........- Kill
Olimar:.................Combo/Gimp......- Camp/Gimp......- Camp/Poke/Gimp- Kill/Gimp.....- Kill/Gimp
Peach:..................???.............- ???............- ???...........- Kill..........- Kill
Pikachu:................Combo...........- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Pit:....................Combo/Gimp......- ???............- ???...........- Kill..........- Kill
R.O.B.:.................Combo...........- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Samus:..................???.............- ???............- ???...........- ???...........- Kill
Sheik:..................Combo...........- ???............- ???...........- ???...........- Kill
Snake:..................Combo/Camp/Gimp.- Combo/Camp.....- Camp..........- Camp..........- Kill
Sonic:..................Camp............- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Squirtle:...............Combo/Poke......- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
Toon Link:..............Combo/Camp......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Kill..........- Kill
Wario:..................Combo/Camp......- Camp/Poke......- Camp/Poke.....- Camp/Kill.....- Kill
Wolf:...................Combo/Gimp......- Combo/Gimp.....- Poke..........- Poke/Kill.....- Kill
Yoshi:..................Combo/Camp......- Camp...........- Camp..........- Camp/Kill.....- Kill
Zelda:..................Combo...........- Poke...........- Poke..........- Kill..........- Kill
ZSS:....................???.............- ???............- ???...........- ???...........- ???This list is meant to give general guide lines on stages that you should avoid and stages you should abuse. I will need a lot of help filling this section in. People should help. : )
________________________________
Stage Options:
Character:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
________________________________
Bowser:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Captain Falcon:Preferred Neutral Stage:
lol
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
lol
Counterpick Options:
lol
Ban Options:
lol
Diddy Kong:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Battlefield - Diddy doesn't have great platform options while the platforms allow us to avoid bananas (or even steal them very easily with a rising FAir!), do some silly through the platform tricks, and limit Diddy's aerial approach a lot.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Final Destination - Long main platform means that if he gets you into a banana lock or banana chain grab, you will eat a lot of damage.
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Donkey Kong:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - The long platform is great for camping DK and making him approach you. DK does not have a good option to counter this. Be careful for Cargo Carry > BThrow stage spikes. They're pretty easy to tech if you get used to it.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Avoid this at all cost! DK has moves that can hit through platforms going either way. He also has low% UAir KO's if he can catch you off the top platform...It's like fighting a gorilla while trapped in a steel cage..
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Home field advantage? What? Naah. ROB can just pitch a tent on either side and DK is pretty screwed. DK had very few approach options before, but now his only approach options are NAir(lol), DKCopter(lol again), and BAir. If they're gonna BAir, it'll be obvious. Just make sure to save your laser once they get close so you can turn him around when he jumps up and now his BAir approach is gone. It's basically an auto-win on this stage.
Ban Options:
Falco:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Lylat - The platforms help to approach through lasers a -lot-. Falco also has worse anti-platform and platform defense options than ROB does so whenever he's up there, you're at an advantage but you're not necessarily at a disadvantage when the roles are switched. Depending on which way the stage is slanted, you are actually really safe from lasers and the slanting also makes recovery a tad bit harder for Falco. I'm not saying that you should expect the slanting to mess him up too bad, but it will mess him up a little.
Battlefield - The same platform things from Lylat apply here. Small stage also means hard for him to camp.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Final Destination - A good Falco -will- out camp you on this stage. The lack of platforms makes it even harder to approach them and the stage size just means you're eating more damage before getting to him.
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - If Falco recovers from the right side on the first transformation, you seriously need to rethink your choice of playing ROB. It's too easy to gimp him there. No laser camping for Falco on the first transformation due to the small size of the stage and the same goes on the second transformation but because of the dip in the middle. Do -not- bother camping the retreating platforms on the second transformation. It's way too obvious when the time frame for your projectiles are and if the Falco's ballsy enough, you might just get spiked.
Port Town Aero Drive - This normally isn't on the list, but it is one of SBR's "optional counterpicks" so I figured I should put this out there. The lack of ledges means Falco is going to be eating a -lot- of damage while recovering. You'll never fully be able to gimp him here, but it's really hard to gimp a good Falco once they get over 20% anyway so the extra damage is nice. The huge ceiling and far walls play nicely in ROB's favor as well. (I'm talking effing gigantic stage dimensions.) This is my counterpick of choice vs Falcos if it's available.
Ban Options:
Jungle Japes - That's right. We want to ban our camp happy heaven. : ( Falco has such better stage control and camping options than we do here. He doesn't even need to sit back on one of the small platforms. Also, if you get grabbed here, you're getting spiked. It usually doesn't make a difference because at the percents he can do it, you can meteor cancel before the water, but you still have to worry about getting spiked into a clap trap. I'm fairly confident in saying that Falco hard counters ROB here. To this stage I say "It's not worth the trouble."
Fox:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Game And Watch:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - The lack of platforms here means that GnW can't combo ROB as well as he can on other stages and the long stage makes poking and running easier for ROB. As an added benefit, though it won't happen often, it's possible for GnW to get caught under the lip of the stage.
Lylat Cruise - The smaller platforms means it's still hard for GnW to capitalize on his platform game. The stage also has the benefit of making his recovery slightly more predictable, but you shouldn't expect a good GnW to get caught under the stage.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
BattleField - This is probably GnW's best Neutral versus ROB. If he catches you in a NAir at lower percents, you can expect to eat 30-40% damage from NAir combos alone. Combine this with the fact that GnW has a much better platform game than ROB and you have a stage you don't want to be on.
Counterpick Options:
Comfort Stage - GnW is one of those characters that like the same things we like in stages, so just pick the stage you're most comfortable on.
Ban Options:
The GnW's Comfort Stage - Again, they tend to like stages we like, so if you know the GnW's likes and dislikes, ban a stage you know they like.
Ganondorf:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Camp central against a big and slow target. Need I say more?
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp central. Needn't say more.
Frigate Orpheon - Lack of a ledge on the first transformation + craptastic recovery = awesome
Rainbow Cruise - Ganon's slow movement means he's going to be chasing the stage a lot. Make sure you're on the other end slowing him down even more with your projectiles. Too easy.
Ban Options:
Ice Climbers:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - This stage is nice and long. Toss a mid-charged gyro in the middle of the stage and just laser camp. Their approaches are horrible against ROB since they can't do the standard desynched blizzard approach (laser will go through and resynch them) and with a lack of platforms, there's no easy way for them to get iceblocks to you while your gyro-wall is up. It's basically an auto-win on FD.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - This isn't a make or break stage in this match-up, but it's still just not fun to play against an ICs on. If done right and the ROB is unfamiliar with the match-up, they can go even with us in regards to camping by full hopping ice blocks off the side platforms. This isn't a big issue at all, but I don't like being camped so I always strike this stage.
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - It's extremely easy to gimp nana on this stage and once Nana's gimped, Popo is too easy to fight against.
Frigate Orpheon - Again with the easy Nana-gimping. Add onto that, there is nothing ICs can do about ROB's infinite Up-Bcamping on the second transition and you're good to go.
Ban Options:
Something that benefits their secondaries - There are very few stages that actually benefit ICs in this match-up and the few that do aren't that bad so long as you get a percent lead. If GreenGreens is legal, you might want to look at banning that, but that's not often legal and it's not that bad for us in this particular match-up as ICs have almost no aerial approaches over the blocks. At the same time, however, I don't know many ICs who play ICs only so you should probably ban something that would greatly benefit on of their alts.
Ike:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Another slow, easy target that can't do much about it.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Everything he has goes through platforms, need I say more? : (
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - The lack of a ledge on the first transformation makes it all too easy to gimp Ike. Camping the moving platforms on the second stage is also very, very nice considering Ike can't do anything about it without risking getting gimped all to easily.
Rainbow Cruise - Ike's slow ground, slow air speed, and poor recovery means that this stage is a -great- option vs Ike. He will be constantly trying to keep up with the stage while you're free to just sit at the far end and shoot stuff at him to make it even harder for him to keep up. If he does get to you? Just toss him off the level and start again. It's a vicious cycle for Ike.
Jungle Japes - If you find gimping Ike to be a problem for you, take him to Japes and just camp away.
Ban Options:
JigglyPuff:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
King Dedede:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Easy camping. You just have to make sure to keep yourself between him and the ledge. Don't be afraid to ledge camp here, just don't hang there too long.
Smashville - The short platform means you won't be getting chaingrabbed too much if you do get caught in one.
Yoshi's Island - The shape of the stage messes with D3's chain grab timing a lot. You can also refresh your kill moves off of the Fly-Guys (You'd be amazed how many people forget this.)
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - UTilt, UAir, DAir through platforms. It makes ROBs sad.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes Great because you just camp all day. If he tries to get close time an edge hug for invincibility on the inside ledge and then BAir him away, repeat. If he predicts it and doesn't attack, ledge drop to the ledge on the middle platform and read, then go back to the other ledge for invincibility and repeat until he puts himself in a bad position. If he decides he's gonna try to DAir you, ledge drop and go to the outside ledge of the small platforms. Too easy.
It gets even better if you're on the right side. **** gets too hot for you? Drop into the water and pop up on the other side. Get to camp again cause there's no way for D3 to make it there quickly other than doing the same thing which puts him in a -horrible- position because you're either gonna **** his recovery or just run back to the right side and camp again.
Playing the stage is the biggest part of this stage. Abuse ledge invincibility and the water. Take any chance you can to get to the right side. That's the side you really want to control. It gives so many more recovery options and escape options. Save your BThrow for kills or you can just save NAir and just wait forever to kill him with that. You shouldn't be getting hit too much so it really shouldn't matter too much how long it takes to kill him.
Norfair - No CG, easy ledge camping and I've seen D3s just Up-B over the lava wave. If they do that, easy monies. Simply airdodge through the lava wave and punish him. Just make sure you always stay below him. Gyro doesn't act as a stage deterrent here, but bouncing it off the lava can create some nice traps. Get creative with it. : )
Frigate Orpheon - Very small platform on the first form so there's virtually no chain grab. Just be careful of the temporary wall. The lack of a ledge on the right side also means punishing his Up-B just got that much easier. The sloping platform on the second transformation does the same thing Yoshi's island does to his chain grab.
Ban Options:
Delfino Plaza - This place is just horrible for us. We do fairly well on the transition platform, but there's just way to many transformations that have a walk off, a wall, both, or multiple of both. It is not a fun stage for ROB at all.
Castle Siege - The first transformation forces us into close combat while the second has a walk off in both direction. The first stage is manageable if you camp under the left-most platform and the second honestly isn't too bad if you stay on the flags and just play keep-away from his UAirs the entire transformation. I would advice destroying the left statue while standing on the right statue's platform and camping there as when he tries to approach from below, you can fly from flag to flag and he won't be able to keep up so long as that left statue isn't there. If you want, you can destroy the right statue as well, but that puts you at more risk while doing so.
Kirby:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Smashville - It's hard to camp Kirby but at the same time he combos ROB well, so what do we do? We take him to the most average sized stage we can. You can still peg him with projectiles here and poke at him a lot. You also have plenty room to try to avoid his combos and if he manages to steal your ability, you're not totally screwed. Kirby can and will out camp ROB on a long stage if he gets the laser. : (
Lylat - The low platforms are great for ROB and Kirby has, literally, one good through platform option: UAir. He's just short enough so that he can't reach through the platforms normally which is nice. You do have to be careful about rock mindgames here because the slanted stage means he can and will slide. Aside from that though, this stage seems pretty nice for ROB in this match-up.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Although Kirby approaches well in the air, it's predictable and can be taken care of quite easily when it's his only option. You also remove a lot of his silly throw combos meaning it's harder for him to rack up damage. Word of warning: DO NOT LET HIM GET THE LASER here. It'll mean that he has the advantage. If he manages to get the laser, hound his *** until you knock it out of him. That's all there is to it. Do not sit back and try to laser him. Do not get off his *** at all. I'm not saying do a stupid rush down obviously, but your top priority is knocking the star out of him when this happens. Aside from that though, the huge boundaries play well in ROB's favor. You can survive his FSmash much, much longer.
Ban Options:
Pictochat - This is one of those counterpicks that aren't seen to often on the list but is once again on SBR's "optional counterpick list." This stage is great for Kirby but not so much for ROB. You know how it looks like there's a bottom to the stage and we should be able to fly under it? Sakurai in his great wisdom decided to add an invisible wall so there will be -no- flying under the stage. There's a high ceiling so freak USmash KOs will be rare and if the Kirby can DI well, they can survive NAir to stupid percents. This would hold true for us too if it weren't for the fact that the walls are really close to the stage and Kirby's FSmash weren't so dang good. Kirby's nimbleness means he can get around the silly transformations much better than you too. Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Kirby's stoneform glitch on the right ledge is ridiculous. Invincibility + a constant strong hitbox? Makes getting back while on that ledge stupid.. :/
Link:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - We easily out camp him and the ledge makes his recovery even -more- predictable. You're gonna win on this stage unless you just get outplayed very badly.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - Link has nice platform play when below it and they allow him to poke at our blind spot much more easily. It also allows him to mix up his projectile approaches a lot.
Counterpick Options:
Rainbow Cruise - He can't keep up with the stage and easy gimps.
Norfair - Again with easy gimps on the right side and there is nothing Link can do on the second transformation aside from trying to pelt you with projectiles..which our FAir cancels.
Ban Options:
Norfair - The multiple ledges makes recovering easier, and even if we do manage to gimp him, he has a chance of being saved by the lava. Also, he can bomb camp rather well here. Watch videos of Deva on Norfair if you want to see what I mean.
Lucario:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - ROB out camps Lucario and FD has one of the harder walls to wall cling on out of the neutrals. Lucario plays better on platforms than ROB as well and this gets rid of that issue.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Yoshi's Island - A competent Lucario can camp under the platform with FSmashes all day so long as they know how to powershield our projectiles. Combine that with the large wall to aid their recovery and it's just not fun.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Camp camp camp and screw his recovery with the water. The high ceiling also protects you from UAir KOs and Force Palm KOs with correct DI.
Ban Options:
Delfino - He can punish us in the water better than we can punish him in the water. The pass-through main platform helps his recovery out and the stage transformations will take away a lot of gimp potential.
Lucas:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Camping here isn't as effective as it is in most match-ups, but it's still doable. The lack of platforms also limits his approaches and a lot of his little Up-B tricks.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battle Field - The platforms tend to help him out a lot more than they help ROB, especially when it comes to recovery. The platforms also lend themselves to intant PKT2 attacks which will eat your shield or do a good amount of damage if you don't get out of the way in time.
Smashville - The biggest appeal for a Lucas here is the moving platform. This allows them an extra approach against us, DSmash on the moving platform will often shield poke and it is not safe to challenge it from below at all.
Counterpick Options:
Castle Siege - This is one of the few fights I like this stage for. The first transformation is good for gimps as the ledge messes with Lucas' recover forcing them to overshoot most of the time. The second transformation is nice because if you camp just behind a statue, you severely limit a lot of his approaches since most of his approaches are multi-hit, this gives you more time to move and punish. The third transformation is also nice for camping and gimping.
Ban Options:
Norfair - Lucas basically never has to use his gimpable up-b on this stage thanks to the multiple tether points and we can't camp..at all. Lucas can move from platform to platform faster than we can as well and his DSmash pointed inward on the platforms is deadly.
Luigi:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Mario:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Marth:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Yay for camping. The ledge also means he has to recover a certain way and he can't ride the stage at all so his recovery is a bit more predictable.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - This is another case of "ROB gets ***** through the platforms". Between Marth's UTilt, USmash, UAir, and perfectly spaced FSmashes, we're just gonna get gobbled up here. D:
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - First transformation is the usual easy gimps and second transformation is the infinite camping. Pretty standard stuff, just be careful not to get caught off guard when Up-B camping on the second transformation as Marth is capable of coming out at us.
Ban Options:
Norfair - Not many Marths think to take a ROB here but if you know they have the inclination to do so, I'd ban it. Marth is a character that's easily gimpable in the right situations and this stage just completely negates that. That combined with some stupid UAir and FAir strings going up the stair like stage..yeah. It's not too fun.
Meta Knight:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Ness:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Olimar:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Olimar's USmash and UAir through platforms hurt. He can also DSmash on the platforms to keep you from doing much more than a UTilt or USmash from down there.
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - You can easily out camp him here, just don't be stupid, knock the pikmen off when they latch.
Frigate Orpheon - The usual reason vs tethers.
Ban Options:
Peach:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Pokemon Trainer:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Pikachu:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Pit:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
R.O.B.:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Comfort Neutral/Their weakest neutral
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Their comfort neutral/Your weakest Neutral
Counterpick Options:
Anywhere you know they have less experience than you.
Ban Options:
Anywhere you know they have more experience.
Samus:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
:shiek:Sheik:
Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Snake:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Easy camping. FD gimps if the Snake's not careful. No getting UTilted through platforms.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - Snake can easily control the entire stage if you're not careful and he manages to set his explosives. Also, no one likes a UTilt through the platforms. : (
Counterpick Options:
Jungle Japes - Easy camping. You can survive UTilts very well here. It also makes it easier to survive FTilts with good DI (corners are higher so you won't be killing yourself by angling up too high)
Rainbow Cruise - So long as you control the right side of the screen while you're moving across the top, you're at a huge advantage. Be careful though, if he controls the right side of the screen, you're going to have to work to not get eaten by blast zones. Be careful of his DThrow on doughnuts.
Ban Options:
Lylat Cruise - He can UTilt through all 3 platforms and it's pretty hard to see his explosives. It's a lot easier to just keep track of them with your peripherals on less flashy stages than it is to actually try and remember where they are on this one.
Brinstar - Low ceiling for UTilts. Lava to prevent gimping (who needs to C4 recover when you have lava?). C4 set on the center bindings will last -forever- and have a slightly extended hitbox. His FSmash on the jelly connectors on either side also last a lot longer and has an extended hitbox.
Sonic:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Toon Link:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Wario:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Wolf:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
Yoshi:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - Eggs do -not- match up to Gyros and Lasers.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Yoshi's Island - Yoshi has a -lot- of tricks on this stage due to the slanted nature. Watch some videos of Bwett's Yoshi there and it's just ridiculous. Yoshi can move around certain parts so quickly.
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - It's not as great of a CP as it is against a lot of characters, but in my experiences vs Yoshi, this is the stage I've done the best on. The usual reasons too.
Ban Options:
Zelda:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Final Destination - One of the few times you don't want to pick this stage and camp. You pick here because of the lack of platforms and the fact that FD likes to limit her recovery options. Zelda's too easy to gimp (or at least tack on a good bit of damage) if her recovery options are limited in such a way.
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Battlefield - She has a lot better platform options than we do.
Counterpick Options:
Ban Options:
ZSS:Preferred Neutral Stage:
Neutral Stage to Avoid:
Counterpick Options:
Frigate Orpheon - No ledge on the right side at the beginning. Easy camping on the second transformation.
Port Town Aero Drive - NO LEDGES on the main platform. Sure you can't gimp her due to track, but at parts you can gimp her and the parts you can't, it's free damage and it's easy to read the trajectory of the bounce so you get a free FAir, BAir, or NAir. Yes, most places ban it, but it is considered an "optional counterpick" under SBR rules, so I added it.
Ban Options:
Defragmentation Log:
07/19/08
- First Defragmentation completed.
- All characters added.
- Fragmented files found under: Meta Knight, Peach, Pit, Samus, Shiek, Sonic, ZSS
10/08/08
-Second Defragmentation completed.
-Added a section for stage selection.
10/09/08
-Third Defragmentation completed.
-Donkey Kong's stage section updated (Preferred Neutral, Neutral to Avoid, and Counterpick)
-Falco's stage section updated (All sections)
-Ganondorf's stage section updated (Counterpick)
-Ike's stage section updated (Counterpick)
-Kirby's stage section updated (Preferred Neutral, Counterpick, Ban Options)
-Marth's stage section updated (Neutral to Avoid and Ban Options)
11/6/08
-Minor Update to D3's Counterpick section.
2/17/09
-Fourth Defragmentation completed.
-Sonic's Options based on Percentage updated
-Game And Watch's stage section updated (All)
-Ice Climbers' stage selection updated (All)
-King Dedede's stage selection updated (Ban Options)
-Link's stage selection updated (All)
-Lucario's stage selection updated (All)
-Lucas' stage selection updated (All)
-Marth's stage selection updated (Counterpick Options)
kingcobra9
Smash Ace
i lol'd olimar is gimp even at 130%
Sudai
Stuff here
I'll just have a mod give Gw control of the first post. It's not too hard, just gotta find a post of his from before this thread was made. BRB. : o
Edit: Nevermind. It's literally impossible for Gw to gain control of this thread since he joined after the thread was created meaning that he has no post earlier than the first in this thread.. : (
Gw, just make a new thread for it and I'll ask for the sticky replacement.
Edit: Nevermind. It's literally impossible for Gw to gain control of this thread since he joined after the thread was created meaning that he has no post earlier than the first in this thread.. : (
Gw, just make a new thread for it and I'll ask for the sticky replacement.
GwJ
Smash Hero
Was my thread deleted or something? I made one earlier today with Defrag.
Edit: Why is it a post in this thread?
Edit: Why is it a post in this thread?
Sudai
Stuff here
What? This one?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237968
Edit: Bah...someone prolly merged them without knowing.. -0- I'll get on it tomorrow and yeah. Sorry.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237968
Edit: Bah...someone prolly merged them without knowing.. -0- I'll get on it tomorrow and yeah. Sorry.
TEECO
Smash Ace
GwJumpman, i'm willing to help you if you need any man.
Just let me know wassup.
Just let me know wassup.
Sudai
Stuff here
Stop posting in this thread. He made a new one that will replace this one when I get back to my computer. Go post in there.
GwJ
Smash Hero
There we go, I asked SP if he could split me into the OP of this one.
Sudai
Stuff here
Ah yeah. He can't. You'd have to have had a post before this thread was made, but you joined the boards after this thread was made...soooooo no luck there. XD
GwJ
Smash Hero
Really? I blame McCain being as *** just because he didn't get elected.
POST IN MY NEW THREAD THEN.
Pickle Surprise!
POST IN MY NEW THREAD THEN.
Pickle Surprise!
SpartanX123
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
- Messages
- 44
What do you mean by "Poke"?
Tin Man
Smash Hero
Not to sure if this has been said already but I will give my input:
DIDDY KONG:
CP norfair, rainbow cruise, brinstar, Iunno bout lylat cruise and jungle japes for CP
FALCO:
CP Norfair, Iunno bout rainbow cruise
ICE CLIMBERS:
CP Norfair
MARTH:
CP Rainbow Cruise
OLIMAR:
CP Rainbow Cruise
META KNIGHT:
Preferred Neutral Stage: Final D cause it gives u room to spam
Neutral Stage to Avoid: Battlefeild cause platforms f up Robs stategy.
Counterpick Options: Final D, or something that gives u room on the ground
Ban Options: somthing that forces Rob in the air a lot like Rainbow cruise and Norfair
PIKACHU:
Neutral Stage to Avoid: Final D, but iunno if Rob can out camp pikachu
thats about it, I hope I helped
DIDDY KONG:
CP norfair, rainbow cruise, brinstar, Iunno bout lylat cruise and jungle japes for CP
FALCO:
CP Norfair, Iunno bout rainbow cruise
ICE CLIMBERS:
CP Norfair
MARTH:
CP Rainbow Cruise
OLIMAR:
CP Rainbow Cruise
META KNIGHT:
Preferred Neutral Stage: Final D cause it gives u room to spam
Neutral Stage to Avoid: Battlefeild cause platforms f up Robs stategy.
Counterpick Options: Final D, or something that gives u room on the ground
Ban Options: somthing that forces Rob in the air a lot like Rainbow cruise and Norfair
PIKACHU:
Neutral Stage to Avoid: Final D, but iunno if Rob can out camp pikachu
thats about it, I hope I helped
GwJ
Smash Hero
Wrong thread Tin Man. Use the other one.