Deleted

[Affinity]

both instances the shuttle loop hit at the apex of the loop...
that is the weakest hitbox of the shuttle loop, try at the beginning hitbox and come back with results

Ah ok, I see now.

 

[Ulevo]

as great as this thread sounds. most metas i play nado out of a spotdodge nd in close combat t keep distance. it reaaly limits what you can do especially if they catch you barely off the ground.

I understand that. It can make fighting the Tornado difficult. However, this list will not only help to avoid being constantly trapped by the Tornado via attacks through the top, but if the Meta Knight uses it to approach it can be countered. I know I use it to approach during specific circumstances such as against Toon Links Arrows and Boomerang.

Kirby's stone doesn't go through the tornado. And if it does, it's not a 3. My stone usually goes right through but doesn't do anything.

You're right, it should probably be a * due to how difficult it can be to used, and how easy it is to avoid. It passes through, but will only hit MK if centered.

I've had everything from dash attack, to F-tilt, F-air, and B-air clang with and cancel grounded tornados, but they all seemed pretty weird on timing/placement.

You have F-smash as a 3-star, however, it doesn't work if MK spaces so that he's above Sonic. D-smash works too against grounded Tornado too, except it's better defensively since it lasts a little longer than F-smash and has little ending lag.

You have Spin charge/spindash as a 3-star, but even against grounded tornado, it can get caught inside the attack sometimes, and again, a rising tornado will just eat it.

Other not-so-popular options
Grounded spring* (cancels it if MK makes contact with the spring platform while doing a rising tornado)
ASC ** [Aerial Spin Charge] has 1 sec startup lag, but you can control its float or jump cancel it `.`; leads to aerial combos if it connects, which is always a plus.
N-air ** With double jumps/spring, fastfall N-air has decent knockback to keep MK out of the way after breaking the Tornado, and relatively low ending lag.
F-air * sometimes clangs with / breaks tornadoes. Other times, clangs with and tornado's attack speed beats F-air.
B-air * Slow startup, but it's either in or not.
Homing attack* Depends on his movement, I guess. Homing Attack isn't very accurate, so I personally don't use it against Tornado.

It's alot harder to break aerial/rising tornado.

Summary:

my color coding `.`;
[] Only works on grounded/low tornados
[] Well-placed aerially

D-air***
Falling spring***
ASC **
N-air **
F-smash**
D-smash**
Spin Charge *
Homing Attack*.

I'm not separating the Tornado by aerial or grounded mainly because it will usually be slightly off the ground. Smarter players know to mash B enough to keep it so that it maintains priority while keeping it level enough to effectively trap. I would actually never recommend keeping a Nado completely grounded.

FSmash I should probably bring down to **. DSmash didn't work for me at all, but I could check again. Spin Charge works amazingly well on anything MK has, not just the Tornado, so I don't know where you found difficulty. As long as you mash the button to speed it up, it works like a charm.

I may add the Nair and Bair, Fair serves little purpose opposed to the others. Also, how would one perform/use ASC vs Tornado? I'm not inclined with Sonic really.

 

[TKD]

ULEVO! List Sheiks dsmash, it's very effective. 3 *'s. MK practically can't tornado on Sheik.

You should get player's input on this. Testing on a stationary tornado isn't very accurate (but still helpful of course) because on real matches different moves work, since a human nado is slightly aerial and approaches you.

 

[Sosuke]

Toon Links grabs a 3 * rating?
Have you ever tried grabbing with Toon Link?
Come on it doesn't deserve a 3 * rating.

 

[Ulevo]

ULEVO! List Sheiks dsmash, it's very effective. 3 *'s. MK practically can't tornado on Sheik.

You should get player's input on this. Testing on a stationary tornado isn't very accurate (but still helpful of course) because on real matches different moves work, since a human nado is slightly aerial and approaches you.

I agree with you, but it was all I could test at the time. I'm going to double check tonight with my partner and compiled the list of attacks from below, then maybe get player input.

Toon Links grabs a 3 * rating?
Have you ever tried grabbing with Toon Link?
Come on it doesn't deserve a 3 * rating.

I'll relook into it. He seems to have quite the reach with grabbing out of the tornado, but I'll update tonight.

 

[Slush]

wow, thanks a bunch man! this really helps a lot! (my friends spam with him when he gets upset so now hell just get pissed and break his controller instead of winning half the time ; P

 

[Sosuke]

I'll relook into it. He seems to have quite the reach with grabbing out of the tornado, but I'll update tonight.

I can see what you mean, and it makes sense. But Toon Links grab just sucks.
If you miss theres like 5 minutes of lag. The ability to actually grab him is decent, but the punishment is greater then the benefit IMO. The throws are horrible anyway.

 

[Ulevo]

I can see what you mean, and it makes sense. But Toon Links grab just sucks.
If you miss theres like 5 minutes of lag. The ability to actually grab him is decent, but the punishment is greater then the benefit IMO. The throws are horrible anyway.

Well it's not like Meta Knight can protect himself while he's using the Nado outside of maybe weaving out of range or raising the elavation. Anyway, it could probably go for a **.

 

[RoyalBlood]

For Zelda, Nayru's Love will take you out when you're inside the tornado

 

[manhunter098]

You can add DKs f-air to that list. I managed to pull it off by chance earlier today at a smash fest I was at. It was really very satisfying. I think that the spacing requires DK to be about even with the top of the Tornado (pretty much you need to hit with the spike part coming down more or less), and its probably extremely difficult to hit with, especially given the startup time and the ability for Metaknight to move closer or farther away so it doesnt hit.

But yeah, it does work.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

bowser can also klaw metaknight out of it - but that's definitely a 1 star operation XD

 

[Ulevo]

I've been thinking about adding the Klaw. Despite it being difficult to use, the fact that you can suicide with it to take a stock with just that move may warrant its use.

Anyway, I'm only adding moves that I think are reasonable to pull off in the midst of a battle where you're getting ***** by the Nado, or moves that have high enough reward to warrant their difficult use. However, with that in mind, you need a balance. Even though the Bowser Bomb could KO Meta Knight, you will almost never ever hit with it. Hence why I removed it.

I went through the list last night since I finally got a partner, and retested all of the moves from Bowser to Lucario with him doing nothing but chasing me everywhere with Nado, and found some surprising results one what worked better than expected and what didn't work so well. So they're updated. I have to do Lucas to ZSS tonight when he comes back home, and we'll maybe get to the moves that beat the Tornado from below.

Also, fast fall Uair for G&W is like, the sexiest thing ever.

 

[CorruptFate]

Pit

FTilt***
Dair*
Palutena's Arrow*

Maby its because im a pit main and have lots of pracitice with arrows, but the arrow is one of the easiest move inthe game to hit with unless they side step, and MK can't do that when in the tornado. So I think that the arrow should be *** or at least**. But it'll only tie with it not over power it most of the time.

 

[Ulevo]

Pit

FTilt***
Dair*
Palutena's Arrow*

Maby its because im a pit main and have lots of pracitice with arrows, but the arrow is one of the easiest move inthe game to hit with unless they side step, and MK can't do that when in the tornado. So I think that the arrow should be *** or at least**. But it'll only tie with it not over power it most of the time.

Unless Pit charges the arrow to full strength, it will never go through a Tornado unless it loops over and hits Meta Knights head, which in itself is difficult to accomplish.

 

[chewyy]

The best thing to do when you see a tornado, is to lie down in a ditch and cover your neck with your hands, but whatever you do, don't drive away from it.

The midwest knows how to deal with tornados.

 

[Tyr_03]

Lucas's Uair knocks MK out of the tornado if it hits from above. If you're stuck in the tornado you can smash DI up and fastfall an Uair to get out. Works pretty reliably.

 

[Zankoku]

Neutral B***
Needle Storm*

Unless I miss my mark, you just gave two classifications for the same move.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Diddy Kong

FTilt***
DSmash* (Second Kick)
Nair***
Banana Peel***

--
Add:
Side-B (hump)***
Side-B (kick)***
B-Air***
Bananas should be 4 stars.

 

[TigerWoods]

Peach

Utilt***(it completely outprioritizes it if meta is above peach...)

 

[smaci92]

thanks for the list. there's already one in the MK forums, but this list is way better and way more detailed

 

[Delvro]

Luigi's FTilt can knock him out of it, but it's definitely a * attack.

Seeing as Luigi has no other ground options besides running the heck away...

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

It's possible with Kirby's back air. The timing and placement of where you hit is pretty strict, though. I'd give it two asterisks!

I also grabbed Meta Knight out of the tornado while taking some damage the other day. Don't know if that should count or not. The timing seems really ridiculous on it.

 

[Niko_K]

Peach section is super inaccurate. Probably the rest of this list as well. I was experimenting with the nado with switchblade and we believe that there are two hitboxes in the tornado. Being the blue and red flames that travel about the nado. Slowing down the nado to 1/4 speed shows that they travel up and down and criss cross the nado in a figure 8 fashion ridiculously fast. Though the nado starts out with both hitboxes in the center, which means MK is vulnerable at this time. And also means you can SDI up and away right at this point to escape.

So if you can hit MK while the hitboxes are aligned you will knock him out of it, usually why MK's get hit out of nado's right at the beginning. Also it explains how moves randomly knock him out of the nado.

This makes it really hard to determine which attacks truly "out prioritize" the nado.

 

[Ulevo]

Peach section is super inaccurate. Probably the rest of this list as well. I was experimenting with the nado with switchblade and we believe that there are two hitboxes in the tornado. Being the blue and red flames that travel about the nado. Slowing down the nado to 1/4 speed shows that they travel up and down and criss cross the nado in a figure 8 fashion ridiculously fast. Though the nado starts out with both hitboxes in the center, which means MK is vulnerable at this time. And also means you can SDI up and away right at this point to escape.

So if you can hit MK while the hitboxes are aligned you will knock him out of it, usually why MK's get hit out of nado's right at the beginning. Also it explains how moves randomly knock him out of the nado.

This makes it really hard to determine which attacks truly "out prioritize" the nado.

I have yet to redo the Peach section yet. I've only managed to get from Bowser to Lucario. I've just been too busy. My first tests were more of a quick overview of which attacks can override the Tornado if the situation presents itself. Things such as Ganondorfs Warlock Kick worked really well for that in theory. Now I plan to redo from Lucas to ZSS with results based on gameplay.

I'm not looking for tedious little attacks that might beat the Tornado if you time it in the hitboxes right. We all know how inconvenient and unlikely that would be. I'm looking for good, solid methods that I believe can be used against a Meta Knight that uses or even spams the Tornado that will out prioritize it at any given point during it's use, including the point of it's highest priority.

It's a work in progress, and honestly is a tad sloppy because of how neglectful and busy I've been. But I'll update soon.

By the way, good job on CH4. I need to head to the GTA and have some matches with you guys again.

Unless I miss my mark, you just gave two classifications for the same move.

Thanks for pointing that out, Ankoku.

Diddy Kong

FTilt***
DSmash* (Second Kick)
Nair***
Banana Peel***

--
Add:
Side-B (hump)***
Side-B (kick)***
B-Air***
Bananas should be 4 stars.

How are you using the Side B to override Nado? Same with Bair? I repeatedly, extensively attempted to use these and to no avail. I can't seem them working at all, the Nados hitbox is too large.

 

[BrawlBro]

Peach section is super inaccurate. Probably the rest of this list as well.

This makes it really hard to determine which attacks truly "out prioritize" the nado.

thats the way I figure, at least theres way too many *** half of those should be **.

 

[Niko_K]

What I was trying to say is, it is kind of random as to whether or not some moves will go through tornado. It will be dependent on weather or not both hitboxes are aligned. There will be some moves that go through it no matter which time they hit it. Those are the moves that should be on this list.

 

[Puddin]

Man people must really hate his tornado, this is a discovery for me.

/Sarcasm

I think there needs to be a thread like this, but based on the Falcon Punch. And no attack deserves a star.

Pssst Niko, you said weather "It will be dependent on weather"

Anyway how does Pit's Side B do against the tornado? From the pure nature of his side b "Hiayayayayaya" I'm willing to bet they will clang. Which I guess would count as a 3 star rating. But it's not under Pit's moves because it's either not been tested or it's been tested to no avail. So if someone could shed some light on this it'd be great.

 

[Gea]

Niko is right though. For Peach toad and ftilt have three stars. The Nado can GO THROUGH both. Hell, even fsmash doesn't always cancel it for her.

You can also stop it with fastfallen dair and nair, but good luck. Peach has 0 consistent options besides Fsmash, which has startup.

If its grounded, alot of stuff will go through. A turnip will stop a grounded one.

 

[Greenstreet]

yay on sonic having more than 0

 

[Ulevo]

What I was trying to say is, it is kind of random as to weather or not some moves will go through tornado. It will be dependent on weather or not both hitboxes are aligned. There will be some moves that go through it no matter which time they hit it. Those are the moves that should be on this list.

That is exactly what my goal is.

 

[Kenpachi]

I don't know what your opinion on up moves are... seeing as ground level tornado is most common. but there are some combos that lead to a midair tornado... and knowing which of your up moves can out prioritize it would be nice if the MK misses his mark or you DI.

Things like MK's up tilt and up smash could be added.

Just an idea, I guess. I like that this list added moves which work when used from above. Poor Luigi had 0 moves before that was added.

 

[Puddin]

I think Olimar's Pikmin Chain should be degraded to a one star for two reasons.

1. The Pikmin Chain has to make direct contact with Metaknight Inside the tornado.

2. The angle at which the Pikmin Chain attacks makes for precise aim and timing to be required to stop it, an angle at which no Metaknight using the tornado would be coming at anyway.

However because of it's extended Hit Box time it may be deserving of two stars but IMO it should only have 1.

 

[chewyy]

Sorry I don't play as MK or against MK much, but isn't there less priority on the ground with the tornado?
As in, if you tap B to rise a little, you gain priority? Or is it just that tapping B = greater priorty, or is it just a little higher means that a stronger part of the attack hits?

I was messing around with falcon, and jab clinks a grounded (no B tapping) tornado but I couldn't get it to do it against one where we were tapping B.

 

[Puddin]

?

I was messing around with falcon, and jab clinks a grounded (no B tapping) tornado but I couldn't get it to do it against one where we were tapping B.

Probably because of the different angle of the hitbox, if you could jab while floating in the air it would clink and stop it, but because it's a different angle and the tornado is coming down on you the hitbox of the tornado completely avoids that of the jab.

 

[infomon]

Actually, in all of my experiments, the tornado can be interrupted only when it is on the ground.

Here's my test: once the tornado is past its first few frames of spinning (those are super-armor frames I think?), Falcon's jab can cancel it. Put Falcon on a platform above the tornado, and if you get the tornado to rise, the jab will not cancel it. But get the tornado to rise up to the platform, and land on the platform, and Falcon's jab will once again be able to cancel it.

In all of this, the jab should be just barely touching the tornado; you should not be hitting MK's hurtbox. When cancelled, the tornado will end very quickly, leaving Metaknight in a neutral state; nobody gets hurt.

If this is the case, that the tornado can only be interrupted while grounded... that shows some consistency with the rest of Brawl. That is, aerial attacks in Brawl cannot be interrupted; they are subject only to hitbox/hurtbox considerations, so there is no "priority". Alternatively, ground attacks can be interrupted if their hitbox overlaps an enemy hitbox that would cause within 10% damage (or more). I now believe that most Specials are attributed a "grounded" or "airborne" state where the different rules about interruption will apply to each.

 

[Ulevo]

Actually, in all of my experiments, the tornado can be interrupted only when it is on the ground.

Here's my test: once the tornado is past its first few frames of spinning (those are super-armor frames I think?), Falcon's jab can cancel it. Put Falcon on a platform above the tornado, and if you get the tornado to rise, the jab will not cancel it. But get the tornado to rise up to the platform, and land on the platform, and Falcon's jab will once again be able to cancel it.

In all of this, the jab should be just barely touching the tornado; you should not be hitting MK's hurtbox. When cancelled, the tornado will end very quickly, leaving Metaknight in a neutral state; nobody gets hurt.

If this is the case, that the tornado can only be interrupted while grounded... that shows some consistency with the rest of Brawl. That is, aerial attacks in Brawl cannot be interrupted; they are subject only to hitbox/hurtbox considerations, so there is no "priority". Alternatively, ground attacks can be interrupted if their hitbox overlaps an enemy hitbox that would cause within 10% damage (or more). I now believe that most Specials are attributed a "grounded" or "airborne" state where the different rules about interruption will apply to each.

That is not necessarily the case. Meta Knights Glide Attack can be clanked and canceled with other aerial attacks, or ground attacks. Brawl isn't always consistent.

There are plenty of attacks that override the Tornado both in air and on the ground. I'm mainly listing the moves that can beat it while slightly air born, because that is when it's priority is higher. And no high level Meta Knight will ever use a true grounded Tornado.

 

[BrawlBro]

Actually, in all of my experiments, the tornado can be interrupted only when it is on the ground.

I didnt even read the rest, easily disproved statement.


try a banana from diddy or a laser from falco.

 

[infomon]

I didnt even read the rest, easily disproved statement.


try a banana from diddy or a laser from falco.

Reading my whole post might have cleared up the confusion. I talk about the tornado being "interrupted" or "cancelled" to mean when MK quickly puts the tornado away, without being hurt. AFAICT this can only happen when the tornado is grounded. Of course the tornado stops when you hit MK's hurtbox, like with the bananas or lasers, but that's not what I'm talking about.

That is not necessarily the case. Meta Knights Glide Attack can be clanked and canceled with other aerial attacks, or ground attacks. Brawl isn't always consistent.

You seem to be right, that the glide attack can seem to have its hitbox cancelled against opponent hitboxes. Although he continues the slash anyway. I'm going to experiment with this a bunch and get back to you

 

[Ulevo]

Small update. I managed to do from Lucas to Ness tonight. I'll try to get to the others tomorrow sometime.

 

[MuBa]

ROB's Gyromite destroys the tornado. Might wanna put that in the list too. Not only does it cancel the tornado it also hits MK in the face.