Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[JOE!]

out of curiosity, which stages are you talking about?

 

[TurnOneWrath]

out of curiosity, which stages are you talking about?

The stage that randomly flips upside down dumping all the characters off the bottom of the screen, Olimar's stage (I feel I have no control), and the Ice Climber's stage.

It could be that I'm not quite used to them to the point that I know how to deal with them, as I usually practice on levels that are a little less insane.

 

[JOE!]

frigate is fine

lost planet is meh and promotes circle camping, but it shouldnt be a control issue o_O

IC's stage is banned anyways

 

[Life]

^Elaborating on this:

Frigate gives you a ton of warning, so it's generally not a problem. The safe zone for the transformations is ridiculously huge and if you're gimped by the stage, you screwed up.

DP does not have circle camping (although it does have one excellent-but-not-broken camping spot, right above the left ledge), although I'm not sure how random it is.

Summit does have circle camping, which is auto-banworthy, but I don't think it's random.

Generally the stages with the most well-known random aspects include Norfair (lava wall/wave/jets are on a ~30sec timer, IDK about the floor), Green Greens (bomb blocks, I think apples), and WarioWare (banned because it almost literally decides matches on its own, it's that random).

 

[SmashChu]

I guess this was one of my hang-ups with Brawl and why it just didn't seem quite right in comparison to Melee. I was used to the quick reflexes and rapid thought processing in Melee. When I tried to apply it to Brawl, it just didn't transfer well, if at all.

Hmm, did you ever wonder why?

Also, one thing I've been really vocal about to friends is that I ABSOLUTELY HATE FIGHTING THE STAGE MORESO THAN MY OPPONENT. The stages on Melee one could mitigate with a little practice. On the other hand, the stages on Brawl (some of them) will determine the winner or loser irrespective of what happened from a fighting aspect. That alone almost made me forget about Brawl altogether and just stick with Melee.

Stage will determine the winner no matter what. The point of the games to learn the elements of it. Knowing the stage is the same as knowing a match-up. In other words, in Starcraft 2, you don't play Lost Temple and them be surprised that the Terran tank dropped on you.

Use the stage, and you'll win.

 

[TurnOneWrath]

Hmm, did you ever wonder why?

Until now I did. I feel like I have at least a little understanding as to why now that I have read this thread, and looked up some of the more unfamiliar terms like DI, hit stun, etc. (things I had no idea that they existed until the past few days).

 

[Wenbobular]

Until now I did. I feel like I have at least a little understanding as to why now that I have read this thread, and looked up some of the more unfamiliar terms like DI, hit stun, etc. (things I had no idea that they existed until the past few days).

If you don't know those you probably don't have the basic Smash education necessary to make an argument either way on this topic <_<

 

[Big-Cat]

Stage will determine the winner no matter what. The point of the games to learn the elements of it. Knowing the stage is the same as knowing a match-up. In other words, in Starcraft 2, you don't play Lost Temple and them be surprised that the Terran tank dropped on you.

Use the stage, and you'll win.

That's a rather strong statement there. At most, you can say someone has an advantage/disadvantage on a certain stage, but it doesn't mean they'll lose. A 4-6 just really means you got to put more effort in the match than the opponent.

Besides, there's at least the personal limits for what one tolerates on a stage. I can't stand something like the magma wave in Norfair, Rumble Falls in its entirety, and Wario Ware's minigames because they take away from the main focus which is to fight the opponent when those shifts happen.
On the other hand, I'm fine with stages like Delfino Plaza because they don't take away the focus of the fight, just change the environment in a nonradical way.

And why do you keep bringing up Starcraft 2 other than that Lord Malstrom adores it? You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Revven]

It's not really a lack of combos, if combos still didn't exist but Brawl had all the gameplay mechanics down pat (this includes all the problems with teching, footstooling input, wall jumping, wall cling input, L-canceling, wavedashing and etc.) Then I think people would still be moderately okay with the game because it would still require some techskill to do well.

But because Sakurai allowed you to cancel hitstun with aerials and air dodges as well as allow you to get out of tumble through air dodging he was just promoting a slower paced game. It's as if he was trying to model Super Smash Bros 64 without the crazy high hitstun and instead with none of it. You can't even really combo off of items and that was what made Smash 64 items fun to a degree.

When you get right down to it though the game's programming just wasn't perfect. It may be in the eyes of many people as a "finished" game but really Sakurai and his team have stuff on the disc that looked like needed a second run through (another 6 months basically) to actually make sure that there was nothing wrong. But they didn't want to delay it any further because of the hype the game had and they already delayed it several times before.

The point is, Brawl wasn't a finished game when it hit and neither was Melee but at least Melee stayed true to what Super Smash Bros. 64 set out. Brawl deviated from the core things Smash 64 set and that is what the main problem is with Brawl IMO.

 

[Gatlin]

I don't have much of an opinion on Melee or 64 versions, seeing as I never much played them. I do hear quite a lot of people bashing on Brawl with the "lack of combos therefore it sucks." saying. I don't much see this major malfunction however, Brawl still supplies enough gameplay, strategy, and fun to hook me to the game. It seems to be mentioned as a "slowed down" version on Melee according to what I have heard.

I don't really view that as a bad thing however, it gives people a chance to truly show their expertise of a character rather than get destroyed after making a split-second mistake. Not that I am really bashing Melee or 64 though, I am just giving my opinion on the matter concerning Brawl.

As for tripping, I kind of find it funny when it happens, hehe. It can get annoying at times, but I find it funny when I am rushing in to USmash, or someone else is charging me and trips.

 

[Wenbobular]

I don't have much of an opinion on Melee or 64 versions, seeing as I never much played them. I do hear quite a lot of people bashing on Brawl with the "lack of combos therefore it sucks." saying. I don't much see this major malfunction however, Brawl still supplies enough gameplay, strategy, and fun to hook me to the game. It seems to be mentioned as a "slowed down" version on Melee according to what I have heard.

I don't really view that as a bad thing however, it gives people a chance to truly show their expertise of a character rather than get destroyed after making a split-second mistake. Not that I am really bashing Melee or 64 though, I am just giving my opinion on the matter concerning Brawl.

As for tripping, I kind of find it funny when it happens, hehe. It can get annoying at times, but I find it funny when I am rushing in to USmash, or someone else is charging me and trips.

I would argue that performing deadly punishes demonstrates as much mastery in Melee (not necessarily 64 haha) as ... whatever would be the equivalent in Brawl.

Also do you seriously think tripping is "funny"

 

[Gatlin]

I would argue that performing deadly punishes demonstrates as much mastery in Melee (not necessarily 64 haha) as ... whatever would be the equivalent in Brawl.

Also do you seriously think tripping is "funny"

Haha, occasionally yes. Not much when I am playing against people seriously, but when I am playing against someone in a friendly match, I find it funny. I didn't mean to say that Melee KO's don't show as much mastery, I think what I meant is with the absence of a good combo system in Brawl, it sort of gives each player a good or equal chance, depending on the tiers of course. Melee still requires a lot of skill to perform the great KO'ing combos, I think it is just a little too fast paced for my liking. Just my opinionated stance, though.

Edit: After re-reading what you bolded, I could have definitely worded that differently, it sounded much like I was saying Melee was a bad game that depended on luck. That's not what I had in mind :/

 

[Wenbobular]

Well you just made it sound like punishment in Melee didn't require mastery of a character which it certainly does

S'all good though

And yeah I'm sure tripping might be like ... vaguely amusing in friendlies.
In tournament matches I would feel pretty unfortunate if I tripped and lost or if my opponent tripped and I won. Would feel pretty cheated either way x(

 

[TurnOneWrath]

As for tripping, I kind of find it funny when it happens, hehe. It can get annoying at times, but I find it funny when I am rushing in to USmash, or someone else is charging me and trips.

The first time I played this game I tripped, and my initial reaction was "WTF?" And my friend was like, "...oh yeah, they trip sometimes."
That aspect of the game is something that I really do not like and I'm glad there are options out there to not have to deal with it. Games of skill that inherently need randomness are Poker and Magic. Not a game such as this one. Imagine if you were playing Chess, and a third person rolled a die to determine which one of a players' pieces were randomly taken off the board.

I feel like the randomness (somewhat random) of the levels, along with the unknowns in the trophies and the Pokeballs are enough. Tripping and then getting decimated isn't really determining who the better fighter is.

 

[Gatlin]

Well you just made it sound like punishment in Melee didn't require mastery of a character which it certainly does

S'all good though

And yeah I'm sure tripping might be like ... vaguely amusing in friendlies.
In tournament matches I would feel pretty unfortunate if I tripped and lost or if my opponent tripped and I won. Would feel pretty cheated either way x(

Sure, I definitely feel the same way about tripping during a serious match, it's happened to me and it's not all that funny anymore

The first time I played this game I tripped, and my initial reaction was "WTF?" And my friend was like, "...oh yeah, they trip sometimes."
That aspect of the game is something that I really do not like and I'm glad there are options out there to not have to deal with it. Games of skill that inherently need randomness are Poker and Magic. Not a game such as this one. Imagine if you were playing Chess, and a third person rolled a die to determine which one of a players' pieces were randomly taken off the board.

I feel like the randomness (somewhat random) of the levels, along with the unknowns in the trophies and the Pokeballs are enough. Tripping and then getting decimated isn't really determining who the better fighter is.

Haha same reaction, I was like, "Um, what was that?" I thought who I was fighting threw like an invisible hit somehow, took me a while to catch on . The only time I don't mind tripping like I said is when I am versing a friend, and it is fun to watch them trip. In all seriousness though, I do quite hate it. Mainly for the reason you stated, "Tripping and then getting decimated isn't really determining who the better fighter is." Sadly, some people still treat it as if it was their victory.

 

[SmashChu]

Until now I did. I feel like I have at least a little understanding as to why now that I have read this thread, and looked up some of the more unfamiliar terms like DI, hit stun, etc. (things I had no idea that they existed until the past few days).

I'm actually dumbfounded.

The point was you are assuming things that work in Melee work in Brawl and was upset that things that work in Melee don't work in Brawl because it is NOT MELEE. You missed the point.

That's a rather strong statement there. At most, you can say someone has an advantage/disadvantage on a certain stage, but it doesn't mean they'll lose. A 4-6 just really means you got to put more effort in the match than the opponent.

Missed the point. Knowing the stage is very important, just like knowing your character and the match-ups. If you won because of the stage, good job. Either your opponent couldn't take the stage or you used it better. The win is justified and uses skill.

Besides, there's at least the personal limits for what one tolerates on a stage. I can't stand something like the magma wave in Norfair, Rumble Falls in its entirety, and Wario Ware's minigames because they take away from the main focus which is to fight the opponent when those shifts happen.

Then, deal with it. The stage is a part of the game, so you have to learn it. Only n00bs whine and complain about it

[/quote]And why do you keep bringing up Starcraft 2 other than that Lord Malstrom adores it? You're comparing apples to oranges.[/QUOTE]
Starcraft is the the biggest competitive videogame. Smash needs to follow the example of the bigger game. Also, I didn't mention Malstrom. Why bring it up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not really a lack of combos, if combos still didn't exist but Brawl had all the gameplay mechanics down pat (this includes all the problems with teching, footstooling input, wall jumping, wall cling input, L-canceling, wavedashing and etc.) Then I think people would still be moderately okay with the game because it would still require some techskill to do well.

But because Sakurai allowed you to cancel hitstun with aerials and air dodges as well as allow you to get out of tumble through air dodging he was just promoting a slower paced game. It's as if he was trying to model Super Smash Bros 64 without the crazy high hitstun and instead with none of it. You can't even really combo off of items and that was what made Smash 64 items fun to a degree.

I think Sakurai did admit in an interview he wanted to slow the game down from Melee. It's not a bad thing per say.

Link's Bombs, Diddy Banana's, Wario's Tires, ZSS suit pieces at low %, Snake nades in some cases, Peach's turnips all have combo potential in Brawl.

When you get right down to it though the game's programming just wasn't perfect. It may be in the eyes of many people as a "finished" game but really Sakurai and his team have stuff on the disc that looked like needed a second run through (another 6 months basically) to actually make sure that there was nothing wrong. But they didn't want to delay it any further because of the hype the game had and they already delayed it several times before.

The point is, Brawl wasn't a finished game when it hit and neither was Melee but at least Melee stayed true to what Super Smash Bros. 64 set out. Brawl deviated from the core things Smash 64 set and that is what the main problem is with Brawl IMO.

I'm not going to doubt the first bolded, because there is some truth to that.

The second one, doesn't mean much really. 64 is pretty much the basics of what smash is, as a platform fighter. Melee and Brawl changed or added things to this, neither game changed any of the true core mechanics.

 

[Shadic]

The second one, doesn't mean much really. 64 is pretty much the basics of what smash is, as a platform fighter. Melee and Brawl changed or added things to this, neither game changed any of the true core mechanics.

Melee built up on a lot of things in Smash64, while Brawl removed or vastly altered what Melee included. Canceling went from cutting all aerial lag to only half. Shields gained the ability to "power shield" and reflect projectiles back at the opponent, and shield stun was cut, hitstun was cut, but air dodging was added (and everything that came with it), side specials were added, DI was changed up, you could tech off everything, tethers were added, character's momentum in the air and the ground was significant, etc. It added a ton of new features to the series.

In Brawl, you get tripping, final smashes, extra taunts, and the ability to turn off tap jumping. Airdodging is overpowered, shield stun is almost nil, power shields don't reflect, tethering is incredibly simplified, slower character movement, the ability to airdodge out of hitstun, and characters auto-snap to ledges during their recoveries.

(I am kind of intentionally leaving things off both lists. If I were to truly do an exhaustive list of changes I'd kill myself.)

 

[SmashChu]

This post makes no sense.

It's not really a lack of combos, if combos still didn't exist but Brawl had all the gameplay mechanics down pat (this includes all the problems with teching, footstooling input, wall jumping, wall cling input, L-canceling, wavedashing and etc.) Then I think people would still be moderately okay with the game because it would still require some techskill to do well.

Techskills do not make a good competitive game. Techskills are just those little tricks people pull to try and give them an edge. No tech skills doesn't mean a bad game. In fact, without it, you have more room to play mind games and develop new strategies. It would be sad to say that competitive Smash Brothers was all about things like L-canceling and wavedashing.

When you get right down to it though the game's programming just wasn't perfect. It may be in the eyes of many people as a "finished" game but really Sakurai and his team have stuff on the disc that looked like needed a second run through (another 6 months basically) to actually make sure that there was nothing wrong. But they didn't want to delay it any further because of the hype the game had and they already delayed it several times before.

What is exactly wrong with the programming? he doesn't say.

The point is, Brawl wasn't a finished game when it hit and neither was Melee but at least Melee stayed true to what Super Smash Bros. 64 set out. Brawl deviated from the core things Smash 64 set and that is what the main problem is with Brawl IMO.

In 64, you beat up people to raise their damage to knock them out
In Melee, you beat up people to raise their damage to knock them out
In Brawl, you beat up people to raise their damage to knock them out

So no, I can't see how you come to the conclusion to say Brawl deviates from what 64 did.

This smells like some Brawl scapegoating to me.

 

[Shadic]

What is exactly wrong with the programming? he doesn't say.

Falco400, myself, and the rest of the people in the PMBR team have spent over a year looking through and modifying character files. He's not scapegoating, we've seen the errors in programming in both Melee and Brawl. In Brawl, Ganondorf's Fair was supposed to auto-cancel, but they used the wrong time of timer on the code for the move. There's a bunch of mistakes like that in both Brawl and Melee, and it shows that both games needed more development time before release.
However, Melee may have ended up a better game because of it. The only example we have of Sakurai having almost as much time as he wants in a Smash game is Brawl, and we know they spent their development time on things like weeding out lag canceling and (as shown that it was originally in the demos) as compared to noticing things like IDC, and everything else dumb in Brawl.

/rambling post

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Melee built up on a lot of things in Smash64, while Brawl removed or vastly altered what Melee included. Canceling went from cutting all aerial lag to only half. Shields gained the ability to "power shield" and reflect projectiles back at the opponent, and shield stun was cut, hitstun was cut, but air dodging was added (and everything that came with it), side specials were added, DI was changed up, you could tech off everything, tethers were added, character's momentum in the air and the ground was significant, etc. It added a ton of new features to the series.

In Brawl, you get tripping, final smashes, extra taunts, and the ability to turn off tap jumping. Airdodging is overpowered, shield stun is almost nil, power shields don't reflect, tethering is incredibly simplified, slower character movement, the ability to airdodge out of hitstun, and characters auto-snap to ledges during their recoveries.

(I am kind of intentionally leaving things off both lists. If I were to truly do an exhaustive list of changes I'd kill myself.)

You forgot about custom stages, multiple tracks for stages more than two, the added characters having more creativity, the added stages being more creative in design.

Falco400, myself, and the rest of the people in the PMBR team have spent over a year looking through and modifying character files. He's not scapegoating, we've seen the errors in programming in both Melee and Brawl. In Brawl, Ganondorf's Fair was supposed to auto-cancel, but they used the wrong time of timer on the code for the move. There's a bunch of mistakes like that in both Brawl and Melee, and it shows that both games needed more development time before release.
However, Melee may have ended up a better game because of it. The only example we have of Sakurai having almost as much time as he wants in a Smash game is Brawl, and we know they spent their development time on things like weeding out lag canceling and (as shown that it was originally in the demos) as compared to noticing things like IDC, and everything else dumb in Brawl.

/rambling post

Both games had stupid coding errors and oversights. Your point?

 

[Shadic]

You forgot about custom stages, multiple tracks for stages more than two, the added characters having more creativity, the added stages being more creative in design.

(I am kind of intentionally leaving things off both lists. If I were to truly do an exhaustive list of changes I'd kill myself.)

Both games had stupid coding errors and oversights. Your point?

However, Melee may have ended up a better game because of it.

It's like I already addressed both of your points in the very posts you quoted.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So you want to kill yourself for brawl improving on some awspects over melee?

 

[Shadic]

Neither my list nor my list with the additions that you posted are truly exhaustive. Good job ignoring context and figures of speech, though!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Neither my list nor my list with the additions that you posted are truly exhaustive. Good job ignoring context and figures of speech, though!

Nah, just proving your post is full of bias. Ignorance at it's finest.

 

[Shadic]

It was biased intentionally. That you're trying to claim it as me being ignorant is laughable, though.

If I were asked to list the reasons I dislike Brawl, I wouldn't mention the addition of many characters and customizable controls, because I see them as positive things. I could bring in contrasting points to deepen by post, but in my eyes this thread really doesn't require such a thing.

 

[JOE!]

translation:

X: I say this to weed you out for what you're doing

Y: Errr, no. It was like that on purpose! I could explain myself, but this is not the place to do so....

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, you're right Joe. I just entirely biased my list greatly towards Melee because I'm not aware that I like the game more.

 

[Sliq]

Ignore Joe. He's one of the MANY people who didn't play Melee competitively, but knows all about how Brawl is better.

 

[TheLastCacely]

just because you have a fancy red name doesn't mean you can suddenly start posting like you have knowledge of this game now red ryu :/

wow at this whole discussion....heres a few key things I wanted to point out more than others because i'm lazy

1.)Melee and all of its techs generally contribute to adding ALOT of depth to the game, L canceling being the best example. Being able to cancel aerial lag basically leads to any combo you can do, thus leading to depth. Is that hard to understand?

2.)SF4 doesn't reward offense, you're mixing up moments of agression with "offense". SSF4 is one campy **** of a camp at the top level, you can even just call it down back fighter, lol. (irrelevant side comment)

3.)Brawl barely has any technical aspects that even add any sort of depth, its a shallow game where you just have to work with whats given to you in your character

4.)Brawls lack of combos are only going to hurt you if its what you look for in a game, although I can admit it will probably shy away other avid fighting game players at first unfortunately

**** this community, and for the record I prefer brawl>melee, doesn't mean I cant admit melee is just overall a better competitive game :/

DEFENSE WINS FIGHTING GAMES FGTS, BUT NOT ENOUGH MELEE PLAYERS HAVE THE PATIENCE TO ABUSE IT

basically this thread should have been closed after this.

 

[Shadic]

Ignore Joe. He's one of the MANY people who didn't play Melee competitively, but knows all about how Brawl is better.

In the Project M thread he was complaining that we gave Kirby his sex kick back. (Have you checked it out, by the way? I swear I've seen you around but.. A lot of people have been in the thread.)

 

[SmashChu]

Falco400, myself, and the rest of the people in the PMBR team have spent over a year looking through and modifying character files. He's not scapegoating, we've seen the errors in programming in both Melee and Brawl. In Brawl, Ganondorf's Fair was supposed to auto-cancel, but they used the wrong time of timer on the code for the move. There's a bunch of mistakes like that in both Brawl and Melee, and it shows that both games needed more development time before release.
However, Melee may have ended up a better game because of it. The only example we have of Sakurai having almost as much time as he wants in a Smash game is Brawl, and we know they spent their development time on things like weeding out lag canceling and (as shown that it was originally in the demos) as compared to noticing things like IDC, and everything else dumb in Brawl.

/rambling post

Notice the two bolds. You said it yourself, that they took out auto-cancels. The programming can't be wrong if they did it intentionally. Than how can it be a mistake.

Also, you mention that Melee has the same problem. Than how is it bad that Brawl has "bad programming," when Melee had the exact same problem and is "perfect."

 

[Revven]

Notice the two bolds. You said it yourself, that they took out auto-cancels. The programming can't be wrong if they did it intentionally. Than how can it be a mistake.

Lag cancel =/= auto cancel.

Also you can clearly tell it's a mistake for both Ganondorf's Fair and DK's Fair by how the animations have already basically ended after a full hop or double jump. They did not match the timer in their character file to the animation or their animation to the timer. Either way, it's a mistake plain and simple and the game is littered with things like this in other character files and even in gameplay mechanics as a whole.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It was biased intentionally. That you're trying to claim it as me being ignorant is laughable, though.

If I were asked to list the reasons I dislike Brawl, I wouldn't mention the addition of many characters and customizable controls, because I see them as positive things. I could bring in contrasting points to deepen by post, but in my eyes this thread really doesn't require such a thing.

Bias is ignorance, dude.

Lag cancel =/= auto cancel.

Also you can clearly tell it's a mistake for both Ganondorf's Fair and DK's Fair by how the animations have already basically ended after a full hop or double jump. They did not match the timer in their character file to the animation or their animation to the timer. Either way, it's a mistake plain and simple and the game is littered with things like this in other character files and even in gameplay mechanics as a whole.

Still going to throw it out there, this is nothing new to Smash.

 

[Revven]

Still going to throw it out there, this is nothing new to Smash.

That may be but in Brawl it negatively impacts the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That may be but in Brawl it negatively impacts the game.

Coding errors also help. Lucario can Side B grab on frame 1 while he's within 9 frames of landing because of a coding error.

 

[JOE!]

In the Project M thread he was complaining that we gave Kirby his sex kick back. (Have you checked it out, by the way? I swear I've seen you around but.. A lot of people have been in the thread.)

no, i was complainign that everyone had the "same" sex kick, it's a pet peeve of mine as an Animation Major

and as for what you quoted, I was showing how you brought up an issue, but danced around explaining it by saying you essentially didnt want to explain yourself


also Sliq, assuming makes an *** out of you and me. I may have missed the "heydey" of melee due ot age/location/etc, but I do see how it's better competiivley at a higher level. I just question some of the ways Brawl is bashed/etc as I havent come from the melee environment to see exactly why X is bad/etc.

 

[Shadic]

Bias is ignorance, dude.

Bias is having an opinion. You're biased as well. If you don't know it, then you're the ignorant one.

and as for what you quoted, I was showing how you brought up an issue, but danced around explaining it by saying you essentially didnt want to explain yourself

No, I said I was too lazy to write a thesis statement in a SWF post. Just like I said in my original post. Apparently I should have stated it in a less subtle manner. Maybe in bold.

 

[Black Mantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPjxkUyEyYI
that ain't Melee

 

[SmashChu]

Lag cancel =/= auto cancel.

Also you can clearly tell it's a mistake for both Ganondorf's Fair and DK's Fair by how the animations have already basically ended after a full hop or double jump. They did not match the timer in their character file to the animation or their animation to the timer. Either way, it's a mistake plain and simple and the game is littered with things like this in other character files and even in gameplay mechanics as a whole.

They are the same thing. Just that an auto cancel is a full lag cancel. (I doubt the developers made a big distinction).

The animations end mean nothing. It just means they ended. Even so, it was already mentioned they tried to cut that stuff out (in b4 you try to say that they cut one but not the other). Not to mention is that even if they meant it at one point doesn't mean they ****ed it up. What if they desired to ghetto rig it rather than try to fix it completely. This happens all the time in games and it's easier to do that then try to finish the animation (which didn't end in Melee for DK either).

The reason I argue this is because I know all to well that people will go to the ends of the earth to try and pin Brawl as a broken and terribly designed game, even arguing the basic code is wrong. This could easily be a quick fix if there is anything wrong to begin with (not to mention, Melee had the same problem as you guys mention).