Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[Sliq]

Funny enough, I claim the only reason that you dislike Brawl is that it's not Melee and you fly off the handle. What's the big deal? You have an opinion and I disagree with it, so that is that. Yet you go ballistic and throw out profanities.

If my post is "flying off the handle," never go out into society because your psyche will be obliterated.

 

[Sliq]

Unlike some of the prior posts, I don't want Brawl to be more like Melee. Let's be honest, when Brawl was coming out, people were getting tired of Melee. No one wanted Melee 2.0. Problem is that no one wanted Melee 0.5 untested Beta version either.

Best post ever,





























of all time.

 

[Black Mantis]

Characters like Fox and Falco are only the exception, and in matchups that actually matter, offense isn't even their best option.

By looking at what is usually the best option for the vast majority, no rather every character of Melee, it's probably a more fundamentally defensive game than Brawl due to the nature of light shielding, crouch canceling, dashdancing, wavedashing, and extremely strong universal ledge options. Sure breaking defenses is more rewarding, but the actual defenses themselves, as in options to repel offenses are in many ways stronger in Melee than they are in Brawl. The main reason to approach at all in Melee is the implied reward of breaking defenses (especially with grab combos, or edgeguards). Given that the reward of breaking defenses in Melee is usually very large, Melee is saved from being terrible and ends up being one of the better competitive games in existence, but that doesn't stop players like HungryBox from causing other players to potentially rage over this game.

Also Sliq, Brawl- has proven without doubt that more shieldstun to Brawl is not the solution at all. That actually makes the game MORE defensive, by weakening a fundamental approach option. Honestly Melee was extremely close to being a horrible game due to its shieldstun and shield drop time, except competitive players realized you could jump out of shield (the casual players who don't know that you can jump out of shield, now you know why rolling is a common bad habit). If there was ONE thing I would change to MELEE in specific, I would make shield drop time 10 frames as opposed to how it's currently around 14-15. It's unacceptable in my book that you can't simply tilt out of shield against punishable Smashes. That just makes the game unnecessarily hard to learn for newer players.

Most characters actually approach pretty easily in Brawl when we discount the fact that zoning options are extremely unbalanced between tiers (which I stress is the real problem with Brawl). Between approach being fundamentally easy to do in Brawl and lower reward than compared to Melee, it's a fair system if you ask me. Generally speaking camping with projectiles (unless you're Falco) is overrated in Brawl and easy for every character to bypass. And thankfully in Brawl there is no character nearly as outrageous as Melee Jiggs or Sheik (their Brawl counterparts are currently underrated characters, but that's a different story), although your associated top tiers are still overall pretty lame in this game.

requoted for emphasis

 

[JPOBS]

Yet you never say how it is wrong. For all we know, you know jack about competitive Smash.

if you think his post was valid in any way then you're just as dumb as he is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you know what a hitbox is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZghDI-AcKJc

Yes I do.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't see what 1, 3, 4, 5, 7 have anything to do with whats wrong with Brawl. 5 I guess you could mean no ability to dash dance, but it doesn't stop movement from being important or made terrible.

Unfortunately, you're correct. It was made terrible. The aforementioned list was not "what is wrong with Brawl" directly per se as it is a locus of examples as to why the controls are poor, which I have stated to be what I consider Brawl's main fault. Consider specifically #5, which I consider to be the most detrimental.

5. Substantially restricted dash mechanics to the point it hinders mobility.

Smash, as a franchise, has one major difference between it and the majority of other fighters in that it offers the player free movement. Hindering the simplest of mechanics (dashing, in this instance) not only takes away from the game play itself, it takes away a lot of the competitive incentive to play Brawl over those other games.

L-canceling is better off gone, I don't see a logical reason to why it should be added to a game. It's nothing but a useless skill test that doesn't actually add depth when you get down to the nit and gritty. I'm not talking about how it makes combos possible, I'm taking about there isn't a single reason why you would never L-cancel an aerial. At least with wavedashing there are reason why you want to wave dashing while doing something forwards and backwards, there is no reason why you don't want to L-cancel an aerial. Unless adding lag to an aerial is good.

A few things here. Usually that "useless skill test" ends up being the separator between players of differing talents, and is thus no longer useless. Also, L-cancel making combos possible is how L-canceling adds depth. Stating that depth isn't added, followed by an immediate negation only proves my point. But that's okay, Brawl doesn't have to have unnecessary depth of complexity to be a good game. And for the most part I think it's alright that L-canceling is gone. It's still just another example of how the controls were formally and purposely ruined.

As for hitboxes...have you seen the ones in Melee, some of those are pretty downright unfair similarly to how Brawl has hitbox issues. Testing in both games has been bad in some areas. Sheik's Dthrow CG, DDD's Dthrow, Ice Climbers in either games. This isn't anything new to smash or even to many games in retrospect.

I did not address specific tactics, as those are developed by the players moreso than the developers. I don't think Melee has anything so silly as Snake's uptilt hitting on the ledge.

Link was rebalanced, not untested, also Sakurai hate him and wants him to stay low tier in every smash game.

The game isn't an untested beta either, neither was, they have issues, but not untested betas.

The poke at Brawl wasn't to actually state that it was an untested beta so much that it plays like one anyway. Anyone who has ever played a good game before can sit down to Brawl, pick Link, and play a match and immediately know that something is very wrong with that character.

 

[Big-Cat]

A few things here. Usually that "useless skill test" ends up being the separator between players of differing talents, and is thus no longer useless. Also, L-cancel making combos possible is how L-canceling adds depth. Stating that depth isn't added, followed by an immediate negation only proves my point. But that's okay, Brawl doesn't have to have unnecessary depth of complexity to be a good game. And for the most part I think it's alright that L-canceling is gone. It's still just another example of how the controls were formally and purposely ruined..

L-Canceling does NOT add depth. As Red Ryu said, it's there essentially as a pointless skill test. You want to know what has depth? Focus Attack Dash Cancel in Street Fighter and the False Roman Cancel in Guilty Gear (don't know enough to say a whole lot). When the situation arises where you can use FADC, you have these options:

1. Spend two EX units to extend a combo or save the EX for later, be it for EX Specials or for the Super.
2. Spend two EX units to save yourself from bad frame disadvantage on block or don't if you believe the opponent can't punish you a whole lot for your mistake.

With L-Canceling, there's not much of a reason (if there is one) to NOT L-Cancel as it doesn't cost you anything, you only benefit from it, and there's no risk involved. If there was a cost, there'd be skill since you would have to know when and when not to use it.

Depth involves having viable options. There's no depth if there's one option that trumps all the others.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Unfortunately, you're correct. It was made terrible. The aforementioned list was not "what is wrong with Brawl" directly per se as it is a locus of examples as to why the controls are poor, which I have stated to be what I consider Brawl's main fault. Consider specifically #5, which I consider to be the most detrimental.

5. Substantially restricted dash mechanics to the point it hinders mobility.

Smash, as a franchise, has one major difference between it and the majority of other fighters in that it offers the player free movement. Hindering the simplest of mechanics (dashing, in this instance) not only takes away from the game play itself, it takes away a lot of the competitive incentive to play Brawl over those other games.

If dashing was actually nerfed so mobility was near impossible you would actually have a point. It's not as versatile as it was in Melee, it's still perfectly fine.

A few things here. Usually that "useless skill test" ends up being the separator between players of differing talents, and is thus no longer useless. Also, L-cancel making combos possible is how L-canceling adds depth. Stating that depth isn't added, followed by an immediate negation only proves my point. But that's okay, Brawl doesn't have to have unnecessary depth of complexity to be a good game. And for the most part I think it's alright that L-canceling is gone. It's still just another example of how the controls were formally and purposely ruined..

KumaOsa covered this for me.

What purpose does not L-canceling do that is a positive over doing it? There is none, so there is no depth.

I did not address specific tactics, as those are developed by the players moreso than the developers. I don't think Melee has anything so silly as Snake's uptilt hitting on the ledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ely7VTpG3N4

The poke at Brawl wasn't to actually state that it was an untested beta so much that it plays like one anyway. Anyone who has ever played a good game before can sit down to Brawl, pick Link, and play a match and immediately know that something is very wrong with that character.

You should say in your opinion, and I'll take it as such since it doesn't.

I Co-main Link in Brawl, there are things wrong with him. Like his high learning curve for what amounts to a low tier. His terrible air mobility, his lack of safety, his need to use projectiles to make his match-ups even decent, having one of the worst recoveries in the game.

I guess if I picked a low tier in melee I'd notice problems as well.

 

[Wenbobular]

You know what's hilarious?
Kirby in 64 had an Nair that had an extra hitbox on a non z-canceled Nair. I think there's actually a cool combo somewhere that involves an edgecanceled non z-canceled Nair haha

This is mostly irrelevant because it's the only example I can think of that not z-canceling is actually beneficial over z-canceling, but I think it's kinda cool

That being said, yes it's a technical barrier that "doesn't have a point"

But that being said, having L-canceling in the game allows for people to stand out in terms of tech skill and makes really cool combos / stuff actually stand out. I don't really want to imagine how this game would be if every Fox ever had perfect tech skill -_-

I also think honing technical skill is a very rewarding task when you finally get to see the fruits of your labor in tournament.

 

[theunabletable]

Brawl's combo system is more depthy, imo. The air dodge system adds to the depth instead of decreasing it, I think.

Brawl is all about followups, and is really technical.

 

[Big-Cat]

But that being said, having L-canceling in the game allows for people to stand out in terms of tech skill and makes really cool combos / stuff actually stand out. I don't really want to imagine how this game would be if every Fox ever had perfect tech skill -_-

Why does that even matter? It doesn't matter if you can do something really technical. What's important is that you know how to apply your techniques.

 

[LAW2222]

Brawl's combo system is more depthy, imo. The air dodge system adds to the depth instead of decreasing it, I think.

Brawl is all about followups, and is really technical.

?????????????????

 

[Wenbobular]

I don't see how that makes for more depth ... it just means nothing is guaranteed outside of dumb throw stuff as far as I can tell. If you don't have enough hitstun to actually do anything guaranteed, how is that depth?

As far as I can tell, this is the basic breakdown of followups ...

Smash 64 - no DI outside of Smash DI + hilarious amount of hitstun basically means you can string together whatever the heck you want and it'll probably work. This leaves a lot of room for creativity (and I do mean a lot) but it also lets people play as boring as they want because many characters have simple but effective move repetitions -> KO move. So if you really like comboing and doing whatever you want, this game is for you. The technical skill required for doing creative combos gets harder the more creative you want to be, but basic Fox Uair chains the level 9 computer does better than me, no joke. Techchasing is also super easy because the techrolls are slow and grabs have very little lag, not to mention you can grab the missed tech. Falcon can probably cover all the tech options just by dash grabbing <_<

The depth of the combo system in this game is slightly shallower due to lack of defensive capabilities when compared to Melee / Brawl.

Melee has somewhat reduced hitstun, but you can still combo because of being able to fastfall during an attack. Techchases are no longer as simple as spamming grab and many characters rely on a mix of "true" combos and techchases to keep the string of hits going. Combos are pretty varied (64 was a lot of up attack juggles) and you can really apply your tech skill creatively to string more hits

The ability to get yourself out of combos has also gotten a big buff, and most of the viable characters in Melee have DI mixups for punishing away DI to get out of combos and survival DI to stay alive. I think it's a good mix of giving the advantage to the attacker while still allowing the defender options to escape the combo through DI and varying teching patterns.

As far as I can tell, Brawl has no combos and getting hits in is guess when they'll airdodge. However, I don't play Brawl so I guess I can't really say anything about that, but I think Brawl lets the combo-ee off too light to call the "combo" aspect of the game deeper than Melee

Zzz this post was way too long

TLDR - Smash64 gives the defender very few if any defensive options

Brawl returns the defender to basically neutral position after getting hit (as far as I can tell)

Melee lets the attacker press the advantage while giving the defender options to get out of the combo

Melee wins

Why does that even matter? It doesn't matter if you can do something really technical. What's important is that you know how to apply your techniques.

I'm just saying that I think artificially making the game harder by imposing trivial tasks like pressing L before you land with an attack allows for more differentiation of skill levels.

I mean yeah, it doesn't really affect gameplay if you don't apply your tech skill properly, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

I was just saying how having tech barriers like L canceling in my mind is half the fun of competitive Smash Bros. Silent Wolf and Lovage wouldn't be amazing if every Fox could do what they do, miright?

 

[Black Mantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ely7VTpG3N4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM_zrV3Dt_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oqT2y4DRoo

 

[JOE!]

lemme pose this:

without L-canceling, woudl the melee metagame/tier list change -that- drastically? Or would the spacies/puff/princesses 9that includes you ) still reign supreme?

 

[Seikend]

lemme pose this:

without L-canceling, woudl the melee metagame/tier list change -that- drastically? Or would the spacies/puff/princesses 9that includes you ) still reign supreme?

Lack of L-cancelling makes

A) Shield pressure significantly less effective
B) combos generally become less viable

The spacies would fall heavily.


No l-cancelling means dair to shine is no longer guaranteed. That's pretty much Falco's combo game gone, and fox loses a lot of stuff too.

They lose effective shield pressure, no l cancelling makes them incredibly vulnerable.


And Jiggly is hardly affected. Multiple jumps and her incredible aerial mobility reduces the risk of her extra vulnerability when she lands, as she has far more options for when she lands, and where she lands.

Peach would not be too badly affected. She still has her float cancels.



Even just in the top tier, you're seeing a lot of movement in tiers. I don't need to go over all the lower tiers, but there's seem clear cases (like ganon) where it heavily affects their game.

 

[Wenbobular]

Without as it automatic Lcanceling or just like ... no way to cancel lag?

Jiggs would probably be like...beyond god tier if there was no way to cancel lag. Apparently Hbox won his first tournament without even know how to Lcanceling or something ... or so I hear

....How is this relevant though haha

*Edit*
Totally forgot about Peach, she'd probably be like second after Jiggs xD

 

[JOE!]

was posing the question regarding the "tech barrier" melee has when it comes to stuff like L-canceling.

As in, without it does the potencey of the top tier really even change too much?

 

[theunabletable]

?????????????????

!!!!!!!!!!

I don't see how that makes for more depth ... it just means nothing is guaranteed outside of dumb throw stuff as far as I can tell. If you don't have enough hitstun to actually do anything guaranteed, how is that depth?

It presents more opportunities where you have to outsmart your opponent.

Now I will admit, Melee is **** fun to watch. idk whether depth or more general excitement is better haha.

As far as I can tell, Brawl has no combos and getting hits in is guess when they'll airdodge. However, I don't play Brawl so I guess I can't really say anything about that, but I think Brawl lets the combo-ee off too light to call the "combo" aspect of the game deeper than Melee

Well I know with MK that there are a lot of true combos, along with a lot of times in which I can sacrifice something that's more guaranteed for trying to read my opponent and get a stronger punish in.

Like I can Dthrow you, and then tornado and if I do it right, it'll cover most of your options. Or I can try and predict you, and land a charged Dsmash that sends you off stage and sets up for a gimp.

Or I rising SH dair you at certain percents and forgo the guarantee'd first hit fair > SL so that I can read what you do and then punish with something that sets up a gimp.

Whereas, from what I've noticed, in Melee and 64, due to all the guarantee'd stuff, there aren't nearly as many opportunities to go for something where you have to judge whether or not to go for something that's guarantee'd, or go for the thing that might net you the most reward if you get the read.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm just saying that I think artificially making the game harder by imposing trivial tasks like pressing L before you land with an attack allows for more differentiation of skill levels.

I mean yeah, it doesn't really affect gameplay if you don't apply your tech skill properly, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

I was just saying how having tech barriers like L canceling in my mind is half the fun of competitive Smash Bros. Silent Wolf and Lovage wouldn't be amazing if every Fox could do what they do, miright?

I haven't watched Melee videos in a while (as I'm a "lapsed" Smash player, and no one around me plays Melee) so I don't know how amazing they are with their tech skill, but it wouldn't bother me if people could do what they do all that much.

While I do believe you got to put effort to hone your execution skills in any fighting game, I am, as mentioned, concerned about the strategic component. Someone may have a playstyle that doesn't require a lot of technical prowess. I play an El Fuerte that is more about okizeme mixups (think tech chasing if you don't know what that is), while there are others that are more about run stop pressure and baiting. Mine isn't as technical, but that doesn't necessarily mean my skill level is lower than those that play like the latter.

 

[Deleted member]

L-Canceling does NOT add depth. As Red Ryu said, it's there essentially as a pointless skill test.

With L-Canceling, there's not much of a reason (if there is one) to NOT L-Cancel as it doesn't cost you anything, you only benefit from it, and there's no risk involved. If there was a cost, there'd be skill since you would have to know when and when not to use it.

Depth involves having viable options. There's no depth if there's one option that trumps all the others.

L-canceling is the means to which many, many new options are opened up. L-canceling isn't a standard option select, it is merely a catalyst of ability for your character. I do agree with you that depth involves having viable options, and L-canceling makes a new series of options viable. It adds approaches, makes an extensive amount of combos possible, or in some cases just aids movement.

I'm not debating your ill-informed straw man argument. Don't waste my time if you don't know what you're talking about.

If dashing was actually nerfed so mobility was near impossible you would actually have a point. It's not as versatile as it was in Melee, it's still perfectly fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ely7VTpG3N4

I Co-main Link in Brawl, there are things wrong with him. Like his high learning curve for what amounts to a low tier. His terrible air mobility, his lack of safety, his need to use projectiles to make his match-ups even decent, having one of the worst recoveries in the game.

I guess if I picked a low tier in melee I'd notice problems as well.

The jigglypuff bair was a good try I guess. I would have picked Melee Marth's fair since he can blow up bob-ombs and not take damage. At least that move hits where it visibly looks like it hits. You'll get no such comparison from Olimar's upsmash, Pikachu's grab height, Snake's nair, etc.

I do feel that dashing is nerfed in Brawl to a point of non-viability. Sans a few specific characters, jumping, falling, flying, walking, dodging, or movement via attacks are substantially better in Brawl. This is clearly visible at high end play in videos.

Link isn't bad because he's relatively low tier. His controls are simply unresponsive garbage. Anyone new to smash can play that character and know that his controls are awful without any prior knowledge of the game.

 

[Rohins]

Hmm people are neglecting how much lcancel adds to the game. Just to clear things up, I'm not arguing Melee or Brawl being a better game just want to discuss some things that are overlooked with Lcancel specifically.

First the obvious, it allows you to use your aerials in more situations. Without Lcancel you are bound to the move's natural landing lag and autocancel frames. You can still space aerials without lcancel but you improve your frame advantage when you're able to cut the lag.

Second, you don't "always" want to lcancel. Autocancel and edge cancel have less lag but are less applicable due to their spacing constraints.

Third, it opens up options for the defender to counter / mess up the timing. There are plenty of character specific ways to do this but there are some general ways to do this too. If you notice someone is throwing their aerials out asap you can angle your shield up or light shield to make the shield stun hit sooner. This changes the timing for their lcancel and increases their chance of messing up.

tl;dr - lcancel gives both the attacker and the defender more micromanagement options.

 

[Wenbobular]

Whereas, from what I've noticed, in Melee and 64, due to all the guarantee'd stuff, there aren't nearly as many opportunities to go for something where you have to judge whether or not to go for something that's guarantee'd, or go for the thing that might net you the most reward if you get the read.

I'm saying that in Melee the combos aren't guaranteed, and even the guaranteed ones the defender can DI to minimize the damage done. It adds another level of decisions you need to make to be a good player.

While I do believe you got to put effort to hone your execution skills in any fighting game, I am, as mentioned, concerned about the strategic component. Someone may have a playstyle that doesn't require a lot of technical prowess. I play an El Fuerte that is more about okizeme mixups (think tech chasing if you don't know what that is), while there are others that are more about run stop pressure and baiting. Mine isn't as technical, but that doesn't necessarily mean my skill level is lower than those that play like the latter.

So you don't think Melee has its fair share of minimalist tech skill styles? I don't think it takes a much technical ability to play like Hbox, but he's still one of the best. I don't think it's too crazy to say that Melee has a higher technical ceiling than Brawl though.

First the obvious, it allows you to use your aerials in more situations. Without Lcancel you are bound to the move's natural landing lag and autocancel frames. You can still space aerials without lcancel but you improve your frame advantage when you're able to cut the lag.

Second, you don't "always" want to lcancel. Autocancel and edge cancel have less lag but are less applicable due to their spacing constraints.

Third, it opens up options for the defender to counter / mess up the timing. There are plenty of character specific ways to do this but there are some general ways to do this too. If you notice someone is throwing their aerials out asap you can angle your shield up or light shield to make the shield stun hit sooner. This changes the timing for their lcancel and increases their chance of messing up.

tl;dr - lcancel gives both the attacker and the defender more micromanagement options.

It doesn't actually change how you apply Lcanceling though which is what I think is what people are arguing about, because you always want to Lcancel and Lcancelable move haha

Obviously edgecanceling and autocanceling would still be useful if we took Melee, removed Lcanceling, and just cut everyone's lag in half because they're different techniques.

I feel like I've gotten sidetracked from the original topic <_<
Also I forget that I'm debating with Brawlers for a lot of this topic now haha

 

[Rohins]

It doesn't actually change how you apply Lcanceling though which is what I think is what people are arguing about, because you always want to Lcancel and Lcancelable move haha

Obviously edgecanceling and autocanceling would still be useful if we took Melee, removed Lcanceling, and just cut everyone's lag in half because they're different techniques.

The application of Lcancel and the desire to reap its benefits are two different things. Yes, of course we always want reduced lag on aerials by any means; I'm not arguing that point. I'm talking about the dynamics that it provides. It adds a timing element that is not static or a "mindless pressing of a button". It requires you to be aware of more things like if you hit, when you hit, how many things you hit causing you to adjust your timing accordingly.

 

[Wenbobular]

Point taken, but somehow I think that someone here will argue about it anyways xD

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

L-canceling is the means to which many, many new options are opened up. L-canceling isn't a standard option select, it is merely a catalyst of ability for your character. I do agree with you that depth involves having viable options, and L-canceling makes a new series of options viable. It adds approaches, makes an extensive amount of combos possible, or in some cases just aids movement.

I'm not debating your ill-informed straw man argument. Don't waste my time if you don't know what you're talking about..

Neither of us have ever doubted what it does. I have stated that L canceling is nothing but a skill test that doesn't add actual depth when you think about it from a designer standpoint.

Jump is a key thing you must utilize in this game, however there are times which jumping is not a good idea. Wavedashing is a great way to use movement and follow-ups, you don't always want to use it since Wavedashing into a Fsmash or something is not good.

Look at L canceling, there is no reason in Melee to not L cancel an aerial. It pointless, they should just make landing lag for aerial equivalent to if they did L cancel. It's like if you made jumping take 4 separate button inputs to jump over 1, does it take more tech skill? Yes, does it add actual depth to make people do that in game over a single input? nope.

Difficulty should have a reason for being difficult, because it adds something to the game and there are reasons you don't want to do these kinds of techs.

Give me a good reason why would a person not L cancel an aerial?

The jigglypuff bair was a good try I guess. I would have picked Melee Marth's fair since he can blow up bob-ombs and not take damage. At least that move hits where it visibly looks like it hits. You'll get no such comparison from Olimar's upsmash, Pikachu's grab height, Snake's nair, etc.

Ok, explain why Marth's grab range is huge in Melee when you clearly no where hear his arm. Explain why Peach's Dsmash hits people clearly not touching her?

Both games have stupid hitbox's. This is nothing new to Brawl, Melee, or any fighting game.

I do feel that dashing is nerfed in Brawl to a point of non-viability. Sans a few specific characters, jumping, falling, flying, walking, dodging, or movement via attacks are substantially better in Brawl. This is clearly visible at high end play in videos.

If your watching high levels of play in Brawl you should be noticing players are making themselves quite mobile in order to compete against opponents.

Dashing was nerfed, it was never made non viable.

Link isn't bad because he's relatively low tier. His controls are simply unresponsive garbage. Anyone new to smash can play that character and know that his controls are awful without any prior knowledge of the game.

I'm sorry, but your saying we don't know Melee and your saying stuff like this.

Link's jump takes 8 frames, aka slow. He has one of the worst recoveries in the game, he has the 5th worst airspeed in the game, which make his recovery that relies on momentum suck more. His moves are laggy, his fastest ground move is frame 7, his jab.

Link has poor air movement, and laggy moves. It's not his controls.

 

[Darkshooter]

Yes. That, and its main problem is that it feels like Brawl caters to a specific audience. Just saying.

 

[JOE!]

Yes. That, and its main problem is that it feels like Brawl caters to a specific audience. Just saying.

Smash players?


@Lcanceling:

essentially what Ryu asked, tell me why a player would ever want to NOT Lcancel an aerial that benifits from being Lcanceled

 

[JPOBS]

Brawl is all about followups, and is really technical.

sig'd for lols

 

[Dark Hart]

I hate Brawl, I love combos... yea I think the two are related,

 

[Bloodcross]

No.

Lack of true combos defines Brawl.

Also lol @ JOE's sig

 

[Wenbobular]

Smash players?


@Lcanceling:

essentially what Ryu asked, tell me why a player would ever want to NOT Lcancel an aerial that benifits from being Lcanceled

Brawl certainly does not appeal to all Smash players. I don't really go out of my way to bash Brawl but don't tell me that it appeals to Smash players in general because that simply isn't the case.

Rohins brings up that needing to Lcancel means you have to be much more away of what's going on. You have to know when you're getting a hit and adjust for hitlag, adjust for it more if you're hitting a shield, and adjust even more if you're hitting 2 (ICs). Adjusting for this is a big part of being fast in Melee.

Of course, I think you have to play Melee regularly to appreciate this haha

 

[Revven]

I love how people are using the age old argument "there's no reason to never L-cancel" that only spawned because of codes. You could say that very same thing for a lot of other things in Smash, doesn't really make it true.

 

[Seikend]

Look at L canceling, there is no reason in Melee to not L cancel an aerial. It pointless, they should just make landing lag for aerial equivalent to if they did L cancel. It's like if you made jumping take 4 separate button inputs to jump over 1, does it take more tech skill? Yes, does it add actual depth to make people do that in game over a single input? nope.

L cancelling does add actual depth. It is not purely a case of tech skill, but your opponent can make you mess up the timing of your l cancel through use of the shield. Therefore, you need to react to your opponent.

However, there's nothing that your opponent can do ingame that stops you from managing the 4 button input for jumping. Therefore that adds no actual depth to the game.


There's your depth.

 

[JPOBS]

Even if melee players conceed that L-cancelling does not add depth, even if we admt that l-canceling is a needless skill barrier...

...Brawl is still an overall less competitive, less deep game than melee for many many other reasons.

Note: proving that l-canceling is a useless skill barrier =/= proving that brawl is better overall.

Lastly, on a related note, theres no need for melee players to argue against the phrase "theres never a time where you would want to not l-cancel a move that is l-cancelable". Thats a given. Where the DEPTH comes from in l-canceling, is knowing the VARIANCE in l-cancel timing given situations such as multihit moves, shield angles, single hit moves, no hit etc.

oh whoever it was that tried to argue that "depth comes from variety in options, and l-canceling has no variety"..yea, you're dumb.

 

[SothE700k]

Here's one thing that (usually) makes people so upset about Brawl to the point of smashing the disk with a hammer, hacking it into a different Brawl or Melee 2.0, and/or quit entirely and play another game:

Random tripping. This has got to be the worst gimmick in a video game ever made. Just running somewhere and suddenly, "AH F*** I TRIPPED *dies from a smash or gets chaingrabbed to death*"? Nobody likes luck playing a major factor into games. Oh, and for those who think it doesn't affect people as much as you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5INAx5daY

It's a major downer to people knowing they did nothing wrong but because the game decided to mess them up, they lose for it.

 

[Rohins]

Give me a good reason why would a person not L cancel an aerial?

Can you please read my posts on Lcancel? It doesn't answer the question specifically but I think it's an appropriate rebuttal to your overall argument against Lcancel's depth.

As far as a "direct answer" to the question here are some times you would not Lcancel:
1. When you're autocanceling
2. When you're edge canceling
3. When you're interrupted

 

[JOE!]

so in other words Rohins, the only time you wouldnt Lcancel is when youre doing something that doesnt benifit from it, which is exactly what i said...

anywho, for the lols: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKfR2NeCNRQ

inb4omgganoncombos

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

L cancelling does add actual depth. It is not purely a case of tech skill, but your opponent can make you mess up the timing of your l cancel through use of the shield. Therefore, you need to react to your opponent.

However, there's nothing that your opponent can do ingame that stops you from managing the 4 button input for jumping. Therefore that adds no actual depth to the game.


There's your depth.

So the only time when people mess up is when they can't compensate for shield lag.

If that is depth that's pretty minor.

I love how people are using the age old argument "there's no reason to never L-cancel" that only spawned because of codes. You could say that very same thing for a lot of other things in Smash, doesn't really make it true.

Mind pointing these out.

Even if melee players conceed that L-cancelling does not add depth, even if we admt that l-canceling is a needless skill barrier...

...Brawl is still an overall less competitive, less deep game than melee for many many other reasons.

Note: proving that l-canceling is a useless skill barrier =/= proving that brawl is better overall.

Lastly, on a related note, theres no need for melee players to argue against the phrase "theres never a time where you would want to not l-cancel a move that is l-cancelable". Thats a given. Where the DEPTH comes from in l-canceling, is knowing the VARIANCE in l-cancel timing given situations such as multihit moves, shield angles, single hit moves, no hit etc.

oh whoever it was that tried to argue that "depth comes from variety in options, and l-canceling has no variety"..yea, you're dumb.

Your taking things out of context.

The game can facilitate competitive play, but it is ultimately the players who get together and compete to make it competitive at the end of the day. People bring competition, a game can facilitate it but the people ultimately decide what they want to compete in.

Also I never once said L canceling made Melee suck. I'm pointing out BS as I see it. If someone says Brawl is better because it sold more, I'll yell at them for that just like I'll yell at someone for saying Brawl has zero combos.

The debate is subjective with no end, since people will play what they want.

Can you please read my posts on Lcancel? It doesn't answer the question specifically but I think it's an appropriate rebuttal to your overall argument against Lcancel's depth.

As far as a "direct answer" to the question here are some times you would not Lcancel:
1. When you're autocanceling
2. When you're edge canceling
3. When you're interrupted

1-2 are when your doing something that doesn't have to do with L canceling.

3 is when someone stops you from doing it via attack, etc. which doesn't rebuttal why you wouldn't L Cancel in a situation in which you can.

 

[Wenbobular]

Knowing 100% if you're going to hit when you do a move is a crucial skill that is harder to work on than you might think, in my opinion. So yes, I'd argue that having to manually Lcancel does add depth.

That being said, let's just drop it and move on to something else.



Does anyone want to talk about what "depth" actually is?
It seems that this is the direction we're headed in, but I don't think anyone has cared to try and define what it means for a game to have "depth"

I might take a crack at it, but I'd have to gather my thoughts into a more coherent post first haha