Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[carbonlifeform]

How, exactly, am I a troll? I'll admit that my knowledge of competitive Smash in particular is far from perfect; but I'm not talking about Smash in particular, I'm describing competitve gaming in general. Does the fact that I actually try and place Smash within the continuum of competitive gaming, where perfect balance among characters, or at least styles, pretty much doesn't exist make me a troll? Might it be that I'd hope that people make an attempt to at least debate my primary point rather than off-hand comments if they have a problem with my post? Is it because I'm willing to admit that, even if Ness is better in Brawl than in Melee for casual play, the (seeming) power of spamming and shield camping was going to prevent him from being anything near top tier in a tournament environment, anyway?

Honestly, just because people who are new disagree with you, doesn't mean they're trolls. Maybe I didn't express my point as clearly as I could have, but I'm certainly not looking to troll. If anything, your overly defensive, argumentative attitude is more like trolling than my block of text.

On a final, unrelated note, there's one other thing I wanted to mention before. I'd just like to state that people who talk about "patching" the game need to learn a bit about computers. It's called a CD-ROM for a reason. READ ONLY Memory. The only way you could modify attributes of the game is if the game were designed to look at some sort of external file for that bit of game data - which there's absolutely zero reason to assume Brawl does for things like, you know, animations.

As for Lord Aether's comments, I agree that, for all intents and purposes, cheap doesn't exist within the competitive scene. I also acknowledge that reducing the competitive gap between skilled and novice players likely was the intent behind tripping; but if you feel that this is a good thing for a game that people are looking to play competitively, I'd have to respectfully disagree that random elements are an appropriate way to do this.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

How, exactly, am I a troll? I'll admit that my knowledge of competitive Smash in particular is far from perfect; but I'm not talking about Smash in particular, I'm describing competitve gaming in general. Does the fact that I actually try and place Smash within the continuum of competitive gaming, where perfect balance among characters, or at least styles, pretty much doesn't exist make me a troll? Might it be that I'd hope that people make an attempt to at least debate my primary point rather than off-hand comments if they have a problem with my post? Is it because I'm willing to admit that, even if Ness is better in Brawl than in Melee for casual play, the (seeming) power of spamming and shield camping was going to prevent him from being anything near top tier in a tournament environment, anyway?

Honestly, just because people who are new disagree with you, doesn't mean they're trolls. Maybe I didn't express my point as clearly as I could have, but I'm certainly not looking to troll. If anything, your overly defensive, argumentative attitude is more like trolling than my block of text.

On a final, unrelated note, there's one other thing I wanted to mention before. I'd just like to state that people who talk about "patching" the game need to learn a bit about computers. It's called a CD-ROM for a reason. READ ONLY Memory. The only way you could modify attributes of the game is if the game were designed to look at some sort of external file for that bit of game data - which there's absolutely zero reason to assume Brawl does for things like, you know, animations.

As for Lord Aether's comments, I agree that, for all intents and purposes, cheap doesn't exist within the competitive scene. I also acknowledge that reducing the competitive gap between skilled and novice players likely was the intent behind tripping; but if you feel that this is a good thing for a game that people are looking to play competitively, I'd have to respectfully disagree that random elements are an appropriate way to do this.

Random elements generated by a character's attacks are OK. It's always that way in competitive games. Ness's down tilt having a 50% chance of tripping is no different to Peach's turnips or Mr. Game and Watch's hammer. The player has control over those random elements to some extent. Ness does not randomly do down tilts while he's walking along, or about to charge a smash attack, and it's actually part of this move's properties that it has a chance to trip the opponent.

The difference between jab locking and grab release chains is that grab release chains are horribly cheap and game-breaking in some matchups, wheras jab locking is very difficult to do correctly and can for the most part be avoided by something all good players do habitually anyway: teching.

Grabbing on the other hand, is a lot harder to avoid, even for very skilled players.

 

[Conda]

Grabbing is more powerful in brawl than people are taking into account, due to how easy it is to grab people.

 

[Johnknight1]

well, Lions can be avoided, but they're not allowed to roam free about the zoo now are they?

You win this thread, life, and teh internetZ with your epicly amazing win.

Ergh, this is stupid. More proof all smash games were made to be the next Mario spin-off party game, and nothing more. I tried this out on Heavy Brawl, and yae to it not working infinitely (or very long at all). Yaez Heavy Brawlz!

 

[MiraiGen]

As for tripping, 50% chance is still random. Removing random factors from the game will always benefit the more skilled players.

Jeezy Chreezy, man, are you even listening to yourself? You just completely contradicted yourself.

Suck it up, people. I'm not happy that Ness/Lucas got ***** by an exploit but jesus, learn to deal with it.

 

[Yuna]

Grabbing is more powerful in brawl than people are taking into account, due to how easy it is to grab people.

How... many... times... must... I... say... this?!

How easy it is to do has nothing to do with it. It's all about whether or not it's broken enough to ban. And as it currently stands, it isn't. It just gimps two characters, boo-hoo. Don't play as them or suck it up.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Calm down dude!

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Yoshi can grab release chain Wario? Good to know.

 

[Masky]

Yuna do you actually have a quote attributed to yourself in your signature?

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm not sure if anyone of you made a post about this before but I've noticed this a couple of times by accident.

When my friends try to grab me, I immediately breakout from their grab. Now this breakout isn't like the regular one we know since melee where you are released just by shaking the control. I guess this is a new feature the game has installed. I know that some of you through constant playing may have noticed this for yourselves along the way.

But I think( that's right you heard me think so I'm not too positive) I understand how to do it.
[...]

Mario forums... save our collective ***.

 

[Conda]

How... many... times... must... I... say... this?!

How easy it is to do has nothing to do with it. It's all about whether or not it's broken enough to ban. And as it currently stands, it isn't. It just gimps two characters, boo-hoo. Don't play as them or suck it up.

I said GRABBING is easier to do than in melee, which gives chaingrabs more use. They can be started more often in brawl than in melee due to your opponents having landing lag (no L cancelling) and due to your ability to shield grab effortlessly.

Because GRABBING happens more in brawl due to shieldgrabbing, lack of lcancelling, and so forth, everything that can happen after grabs is a bigger deal. Getting grabbed in brawl is basically inevitable, especially if your opponent knows they can chaingrab you. You cannot "avoid getting grabbed" in brawl against a skilled player who will grab you at every opening (which are plentiful in brawl).

Please read my posts before you throw a fit. Chaingrabbing is a bigger deal in brawl because they can be pulled off at almost any time, as opposed to melee where less landing lag and shield lag didn't allow grabbing to be a viable counter and punisher.

I said my point three times in this one post, so hopefully it will be clear to you that I don't give a darn how easy individual chaingrabs are at this point, and I haven't mentioned the executing of individual chaingrabs and the button patterns (or whatever) associated with them.

To futher clarify, say a game removes jumping -- ground combos become more significant. Say a game removes diminishing returns -- spammable moves become more important and have more use. Same case with grabbing in brawl. When a game removes cancellable landing lag, significantly lessens shield lag, and so forth -- grab game (individual throws, chaingrabs, infinites, K.Oing throws, and so forth) is elevated in its effect on the game.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

I said GRABBING is easier to do than GRABBING is in brawl. Because GRABBING is very easy to do in brawl due to shieldgrabbing, lack of lcancelling, and so forth, everything that can happen after grabs is more dangerous. Getting grabbed in brawl is basically inevitable, especially if your opponent knows they can chaingrab you. You cannot "avoid getting grabbed" in brawl against a skilled player who will do everything they can to grab you.
Please read my posts before you throw a fit. Chaingrabbing is a bigger deal in brawl because they can be pulled off at almost any time, as opposed to melee where less landing lag and shield lag didn't allow grabbing to be a viable counter and punisher.

it throws them off their game though. im starting to think i can use this grab as advantage. force them to come to u dodge jab jab roll out. i only fight marths at the edge because i can escape sometimes. i suggest no using pkt2 unless u have a high percentage of hitting. i may be one of the only ness users who doesnt look too much into this thread especially since everyone and their mom uses MK and his ***** *** Up B now

 

[Conda]

Hehe. I haven't faught many MKs. I think, like... two. Same with snakes.

 

[thesage]

Ness is ok against MK cuz fair outprioritizes a lot of his moves. Even his neutral b, which is a good thing thing. His d-smash is easier to hit than grabbing with him (which is also easy) so it's not a big deal if he abuses the release grab thingy.

 

[NJzFinest]

>.> About this...

NESS DITTOS WILL BE HILAROUS!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Masky]

Fun fact: Ness can't be infinited on the Lylat Cruise most of the time since the stage tilts. Great counterpick against Marth/PT.

 

[robosteven]

Fun fact: Ness can't be infinited on the Lylat Cruise most of the time since the stage tilts. Great counterpick against Marth/PT.

Good thing Lylat Cruise recently became my new favorite stage.

What a coincidence.



Btw, I think I posted this on the Lucas version of this thread, but if you manage to escape the grab by Marth a certain way (I think just by pressing x or y), you will float and get away from them. Sure, the "animation" of Ness escaping still exists, but you're in the air so they can't grab again.

 

[Sinistar]

Fun fact: Ness can't be infinited on the Lylat Cruise most of the time since the stage tilts. Great counterpick against Marth/PT.

Yoshis Island (new) somewhat counts also.

 

[Conda]

Good thing Lylat Cruise recently became my new favorite stage.

What a coincidence.



Btw, I think I posted this on the Lucas version of this thread, but if you manage to escape the grab by Marth a certain way (I think just by pressing x or y), you will float and get away from them. Sure, the "animation" of Ness escaping still exists, but you're in the air so they can't grab again.

This is called an infinite for a reason. People have taken the jump release into account, but it's not possible to do when being punched by marth repeatedly.

 

[Camerican]

See, ive got a very good way out of this XD, one you play lucas get good with him, and in case you do get grabed... you grab your oppenent back(just make sure your sitting beside them) XD
PS. i dont see how you cant enforce this ban... its rediculous it gets rid of 2 characters cause you can presss one button fast enough........ adleast wobbling was hard and wasnt toooooo relaible and it was indeed banned in lots of places.... and likewise i think this will be too... its just ******** that you wouldnt ban somthing like this....

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I was mucking around with a computer opponent ( as Metaknight) and I was playing against a level 9 Lucas and I found something interesting...

I was on 68% and Lucas grabbed me with his rope snake. We were 3/4 of the way across final destination and I had my back facing the edge. The lucas CPU grabbed me just as I was using an up smash. However, rather than get caught and pummeled, Metaknight IMMEDIATELY broke out of the grab (before the snake had even retracted) did a jumping break and dived off the ledge.

Now I went into training mode and tried again and again to replicate this, but with no luck. All I know was that I tapped the C stick just as I was getting grabbed...

 

[PK-ow!]

How... many... times... must... I... say... this?!

How easy it is to do has nothing to do with it. It's all about whether or not it's broken enough to ban. And as it currently stands, it isn't. It just gimps two characters, boo-hoo. Don't play as them or suck it up.

Let me try a few thought experiments:

What if Marth had an infinite grab against everyone?

What if everyone had an infinite grab against someone?

What if half the cast each had an infinite, each one against a handful of characters, together spanning the cast?
What if the infinites only worked against other characters who could do infinites?

*~*~*~
Really though, the bottom line is that no ban is enforceable, so all discussion is moot. It of course doesn't break the game to have two unplayable characters (if they're unplayable), so the Brawl goes on.

 

[Camerican]

How is a ban not enforcable here? its rediculous..... takes no skill, all it does is gimp 2 people....... and take forever and a half....hope there isnt bans on me kicking my opponents chair out from underneat them.. cause i dont see why that should be ban enforceble; /

And where the rules on whether something should be ban enforceable or not... really its rediculous

 

[Kirby Gotenks absorbed]

Have you read anything in this thread?

I'm sure I would have made it if you can simply roll away and it's escapable.

What about an F-air?

 

[Camerican]

Ok. no more posting about ways to get out its litterly in frikin possible.... all this is is pressing the Z button repeadly like a trained monkey....... you can grab lucas or ness and litterly just look away... and go to the washroom with your wavebird have osme pizza.... it takes no skill you just press a button. and on top of that all it does is take 2 characters out of tourny play... how is that not bannable? an infinite that takes no skill and just ruins 2 characters from tournies. doesnt sound to fair to me or not banable...

 

[MiraiGen]

It doesn't break the game, it's just a tactic.

A tactic that just so happens to screw two characters out of being even remotely useful.

As much as I don't want things to be this way we can't just ban something when it screws a character out of functionality.

We didn't ban SHFFLing, Shiek, Marth, Fox and Falco's UAir combos (Even though that was practically an infinite against all characters), or chaingrabs in Melee, I don't see why this should somehow change that.

If you don't like how it ends up, don't pick the Earthbounders. I don't like it either but Nintendo's not about to go all Sammy Studios and release a remake with rebalanced characters. Suck it up, there's nothing we can do.

EDIT: Actually, have we been sitting here discussion for fifteen plus pages of a technique that doesn't even have video representation?

Cause seriously, pics or it didn't happen.

EDIT SQUARED: Found Marth doing it here. Do we have any videos of someone BESIDES Marth?

 

[Camerican]

Well, this isnt no chaingrab... this isnt shuffling this isnt meele... ffs its an infinite that cannot be stoped no matter the di or how fast you jump or struggle. takes no skill to pull off it FOR NO REASON was meant to be in the game... therfor a glitch(yes we use glitches to make the game more competative. but in this case all it does is stop 2 characters from being playable.) and im pretty sure quite a few others then marth can do it.like ice climbers, charizard , pit, and i dont know who

 

[menofuntall]

Haven't we gone over this already?

The only characters that can do this infinite against Ness are Marth, Squirtle, and Charizard. Only three, unlike the whatever we thought earlier. And Lucas is only infinited by Marth. It's definitely not going to be banned anymore. I mean, it might've (with a slim chance) been banned if we thought nearly the entire roster could do it. But not anymore. It's down to three/one character(s), for better or for worse. It just means that you have to have a secondary of some sort alongside Ness/Lucas.

 

[MiraiGen]

But, yet again, pics or it didn't happen. Otherwise we have just your word to go off of as the fact that it's just Marth Squirtle and Charizard, just like we did with Cort at the beginning saying "A bunch".

I mean I'm all for the fact that this infinite grab isn't as wide-sweeping as everything I believed it was but come on.

 

[Masky]

Just try it yourself. You'll get the same results. The reason why this is accepted is that everyone's been able to reproduce it.

 

[PK-ow!]

Just try it yourself. You'll get the same results. The reason why this is accepted is that everyone's been able to reproduce it.

Yeah the sad thing is that I can seriously imagine picking up Marth in a high stakes tourney just to hate out a Ness if I get character counterpick.

I mean I'm decent with Marth. Haven't practiced a Ken combo at all nor learned the dair spike. But I think I'll get a grab somewhere before three stocks.

Also, I'm lolling at the wavebird jokes. In this case, it really is funny because it's true.

 

[thesage]

I was mucking around with a computer opponent ( as Metaknight) and I was playing against a level 9 Lucas and I found something interesting...

I was on 68% and Lucas grabbed me with his rope snake. We were 3/4 of the way across final destination and I had my back facing the edge. The lucas CPU grabbed me just as I was using an up smash. However, rather than get caught and pummeled, Metaknight IMMEDIATELY broke out of the grab (before the snake had even retracted) did a jumping break and dived off the ledge.

Now I went into training mode and tried again and again to replicate this, but with no luck. All I know was that I tapped the C stick just as I was getting grabbed...

This has been happening to a lot of people. It happened to me a lot of times. Once I was at 164%. I think, unlike most people, that it has to do with hitting the r button as somebody grabbed me as I was trying to sheild and I broke out. This definitely needs more testing, but it's really hard to test.

 

[Camerican]

im not sure, but im pretty sure the ranged grapples (chains ect) can be power shielded in a way. but thats just a guess

 

[robosteven]

im not sure, but im pretty sure the ranged grapples (chains ect) can be power shielded in a way. but thats just a guess

Grabs can be power sheilded?

I thought the whole point of grabs (according to Nintendo and "the enclosed instruction book") were to break through sheilds.

The world is going bonkers all over again.

 

[Recognize]

How is a ban not enforcable here? its rediculous..... takes no skill, all it does is gimp 2 people....... and take forever and a half....hope there isnt bans on me kicking my opponents chair out from underneat them.. cause i dont see why that should be ban enforceble; /

And where the rules on whether something should be ban enforceable or not... really its rediculous

I would guess that If they ban this then they also ban infities that DDD can do to DK Bowser, Mario, Samus.

A small amount of local and small tourneys would even think about banning this, but for the big ones, I doubt they would ban this.

 

[Tyr_03]

Let the thread die. We don't need more people reading the title and saying "zomg I'll never use Ness again." We know about it, we'll keep it in mind, we'll include it in Ness guides to be aware of. Thank you for the time and effort. If you find a solution to the problem, start a new thread on it. It won't be banned. Let it die.

 

[Cort]

Why would you let this thread die and let new, unsuspecting Ness players wander into the competitive scene without being educated about their own characters?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why would you play them even if the grab release stuff didn't exist?

Ness and Lucas aren't exactly made of win sauce.

Ness is clearly inferior to Lucas and has Mid tier written all over him. He might even be lower then that. And I could only see Lucas as low high tier.

 

[Levitas]

Perhaps we play characters we like to play as. Is it wrong to get good at using a character that isn't the best? (or in this case is rather average grab chaining aside)

Emblem Lord, I'd have thought you'd understand that line of thinking fairly well.

 

[Tenki]

I'll admit that I only read the first / last page as of this post, but does it change if they use the up/jump escape (hold up or escape with the jump button) instead of the grounded escape (where they slide back in hitstun)?

Also, someone might want to check out that instant grapple escape that the guy wrote about a few posts up where he got out with MK.