NoNessNoProblem
Smash Ace
lol i'm a moron because i'm telling you your full of ****. You say you don't think ness can win because he gets chain grabbed more. Smart ness players will make sure they don't get grabbed by said characters
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Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments
- Thread starter Cort
- Start date
Cort
Apple Head
No, you're a moron because of the way you presented your post. Yeah, Ness might win a tournament. Maybe one filled with complete scrubs that don't know what they're doing and how to effectively gimp the poop out of Ness using just grabs and grab attacks...
Have you ever even played someone good at Brawl? You'd know the shielding mechanics in this game are completely broken to the point where you can follow up someone attacking your shield instantly simply by dropping it and doing whatever since there is virtually no shield stun.
It's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to avoid grabs thanks to this.
Maybe you should learn how to play the game before you come into my thread saying that I'm "full of shit" and that someone will make me look "really fucking stupid" after winning a scrub tournament using Ness.
Oh and way to explain how to avoid grabs in Brawl when I just explained how easy it is to get one off. Way to let your rabid fanboyism of Ness make you sound like you don't have a brain instead of taking what I have to say and adapting to tournament play... Smart Ness players won't play Ness.
TestRider
Smash Ace
...Did you even stop to think for a second before you posted this? Let me ask you yet another question, have you ever won any amount of money playing a Smash Bros game before? Because you certainly sound like you're talking out of your ***.
So if I'm following your logic correctly (I'm kind of hoping I'm not), Ness and Lucas players simply need to avoid getting grabbed?
Why that makes perfect sense, I can't believe no one thought of this before. Close this thread guys, discussion's over.
I was just providing relevant mechanics information which I had noted this thread was lacking. Since when is that an argument? I should repeat again though that that's not a 0-death grab combo due to the jump escape which will mess you up (though the mechanics of that also need a thorough investigation); only Donkey Kong has a 0-death on Ness and Lucas. Also, you can't just mash Z. DK has to do the cargo for every grab which requires he press Z only as Ness or Lucas are escaping, and pressing Z too quickly causes you to shield which allows Ness or Lucas to escape. You do have a forced infinite, but you actually have to pay attention to what you are doing. However, if you want me to pose an argument, I suppose I'll oblige.
You can avoid this by just not getting grabbed. See also: every character vs the Ice Climbers. If having an infinite right out of a grab made a match instantly lost, then the Ice Climbers would be far and away the best character in the game and would have to be banned for the game to remain playable which so far doesn't seem true. The fact that this is character specific in mechanics means that it only gives Ness one more threat to look out for in specific matchups. Except in the case of Donkey Kong with his cargo shenanigans, it's not even an infinite so it's less extreme than what the Ice Climbers have. The Marth doesn't even have to be competent to win with this? How do you expect him to get the grab?
My other argument here is that everyone writing off Ness now is ridiculous precisely because we don't even know all of the mechanics. Under EXACTLY what circumstances an a jump escape happen? Other than that it always happens against Yoshi's grab (which I don't think is common knowledge) and never happens against DK's cargo (which may or may not be common knowledge), I don't think the real way this works is known at all. Given that the whole combo relies on the premise that it doesn't happen, wouldn't that be pretty relevant to focus on first before you decide on how this ruins a character? Unfortunately that kind of investigation requires two human players so I cannot do the testing by myself right now, but generally discovering what conditions lead to a jump escape would be pretty huge. Further discovering what conditions cause a grounded escape to slide the shorter or longer distance (in the case of some characters, only the shorter distance might lead to a forced regrab) would also be important. Figuring out just which characters have a forced regrab via the "step" method is also major. Listing this makes it more clear to me than ever that we don't even really understand this combo at all; making judgments on its impact on the metagame given this seems premature and foolish.
You can avoid this by just not getting grabbed. See also: every character vs the Ice Climbers. If having an infinite right out of a grab made a match instantly lost, then the Ice Climbers would be far and away the best character in the game and would have to be banned for the game to remain playable which so far doesn't seem true. The fact that this is character specific in mechanics means that it only gives Ness one more threat to look out for in specific matchups. Except in the case of Donkey Kong with his cargo shenanigans, it's not even an infinite so it's less extreme than what the Ice Climbers have. The Marth doesn't even have to be competent to win with this? How do you expect him to get the grab?
My other argument here is that everyone writing off Ness now is ridiculous precisely because we don't even know all of the mechanics. Under EXACTLY what circumstances an a jump escape happen? Other than that it always happens against Yoshi's grab (which I don't think is common knowledge) and never happens against DK's cargo (which may or may not be common knowledge), I don't think the real way this works is known at all. Given that the whole combo relies on the premise that it doesn't happen, wouldn't that be pretty relevant to focus on first before you decide on how this ruins a character? Unfortunately that kind of investigation requires two human players so I cannot do the testing by myself right now, but generally discovering what conditions lead to a jump escape would be pretty huge. Further discovering what conditions cause a grounded escape to slide the shorter or longer distance (in the case of some characters, only the shorter distance might lead to a forced regrab) would also be important. Figuring out just which characters have a forced regrab via the "step" method is also major. Listing this makes it more clear to me than ever that we don't even really understand this combo at all; making judgments on its impact on the metagame given this seems premature and foolish.
NESSBOUNDER
Smash Master
But I've tested it to the moon and back with various controller combinations in 1/4th the speed on training mode, and I can't find a way to force the jump escape...
Cort
Apple Head
Grab attacking forces Ness/Lucas/any character to burst out rather than jump out, you have to grab attack at a fairly quick interval for it to always work, and if you don't or mess up then they have a chance at escaping via a jump break out. I am positive of this because I've done some testing and have always noticed they occasionally jump break out if I don't consistently grab attack, but under a condition where the player never messes up the grab attacks they always burst out in front of whatever character is doing the grabbing.
Ice Climbers have an undiscovered potential in them though it would seem like all they would need at this point would just be 4 grabs and a strict timing of chain throws, it's just too hard usually and every character is a different timing. I wouldn't be surprised if someone won a tournament using them, though. Their chain grab isn't just mashing Z.
I've already stated how it's basically impossible to avoid getting grabbed in Brawl. If you attack a shield in nearly every way, you will easily be punished by a shield drop dash grab. The only way to avoid that would be to NEVER approach, and there are still ways of mixing up your dashes/sidesteps/rolls/whatnot to trick the other person into either doing something stupid or falling into your grab.
Ice Climbers have an undiscovered potential in them though it would seem like all they would need at this point would just be 4 grabs and a strict timing of chain throws, it's just too hard usually and every character is a different timing. I wouldn't be surprised if someone won a tournament using them, though. Their chain grab isn't just mashing Z.
I've already stated how it's basically impossible to avoid getting grabbed in Brawl. If you attack a shield in nearly every way, you will easily be punished by a shield drop dash grab. The only way to avoid that would be to NEVER approach, and there are still ways of mixing up your dashes/sidesteps/rolls/whatnot to trick the other person into either doing something stupid or falling into your grab.
ellelaby's younger brother
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 134
So all of a sudden everyone learns that most of the characters can chaingrab Ness/Lucas and now everyone won't be playing them. Thats it?
Smashbros_7
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 724
This sucks.
Man I feel bad. But we better believe, Cort was the one who proved to me that Peach sucked in Brawl (and he was good in Melee) **** you Sakurai!
Man I feel bad. But we better believe, Cort was the one who proved to me that Peach sucked in Brawl (and he was good in Melee) **** you Sakurai!
slikvik
Smash Master
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
Ug, Brawl was really starting to grow on me. **** ****. **** you Cort
Gindler
Smash Champion
Chain grabs do like what? 10-15% damage? No big deal. (unless it's infinite or whatever)
Oh and I'm ready for cort to flame me and call me a moron or whatever but hey it's a hobby of his apparently so I don't mind.
Oh and I'm ready for cort to flame me and call me a moron or whatever but hey it's a hobby of his apparently so I don't mind.
menofuntall
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 70
It's an infinite, unless you have ungodly speed and can manage to jump out of the release, even then, they can follow up with a quick aerial.
Shibby
Smash Journeyman
memphischains
Smash hhkj'
My thoughts exactly.Yes lets all cuss out Cort
Ready on 3
(obviously this will solve the problem)
Cort you're getting a massive Noa's Ark when I see you at MM
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
...so who's up for egging Sakurai's house?
thesage
Smash Hero
So does that make Luigi, Samus, Bowser, and Mario unplayable because of the ddd infinite cg? Does this make IC's the best characters in brawl because they can infinite everybody?
Luigi and Wario have no moves that outprioritize MK's tornado.
A crapload of characters could've infinited fox and falco in melee....
All this does is make it that Ness can't approach with areal attacks to prevent sheildgrab. Not like he could do that anyways lol.
Luigi and Wario have no moves that outprioritize MK's tornado.
A crapload of characters could've infinited fox and falco in melee....
All this does is make it that Ness can't approach with areal attacks to prevent sheildgrab. Not like he could do that anyways lol.
Gum
Smash Journeyman
but, with ness you can easily approach with fairs DI'd back and not get punished with a grab. It has no lag and it spaces you perfectly.
listen to anyone who wants to switch mains. Including nessbounder. Just some food for thought: if something could be pulled off like this on Lucario, I WOULDNT HAVE SWITCHED MAINS i would just figure out how to avoid it. Dont give up on ness so easily. Instead try to figure out ways to negate the infinite chain grabs.
If someone figures out some cheap*** thing you can do on Lucario I'm still not gonna switch mains.
If someone figures out some cheap*** thing you can do on Lucario I'm still not gonna switch mains.
Smashbros_7
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 724
HOW. Tell me how to do this on Fox or Falco!
thesage
Smash Hero
Marth had his cg thingy. Fox and falco can infinite each other (falco being noticeably better at this). Pikachu and pichu had cgs. M2 had a combo thingy. Jiggs had up-throw rest (among other rest combos). Ness can uair cg them. The only problem with this is that fox and falco was just better than all of those characters and could combo them just as well if not better.
And even with DI people can still smash u out of their shield if you approach with fair. The only time I ever try to approach with fair is if their shield is weak so that way fair goes through it, but that is very situational.
Exia 00
Smash Champion
to be honest i dont really care about these infinites. if you get grabbed its your prolem.
frankly, grabs seem to be predictable now.
frankly, grabs seem to be predictable now.
Ztarfish
Smash Journeyman
Right, because i'm sure you've never gotten grabbed ever.
If the Marth is intent on grabbing you, he'll definitely get there one way or the other.
Anyway I was testing with my sister and she got out of it a couple of times and my Marth was just sitting there shielding awkwardly, was i doing it wrong or is it not actually infinite like Masky says?
Oh and to thesage, D3's infigrab is a bit more complicated than spamming Z, therefore more steps to mess up on.
If the Marth is intent on grabbing you, he'll definitely get there one way or the other.
Anyway I was testing with my sister and she got out of it a couple of times and my Marth was just sitting there shielding awkwardly, was i doing it wrong or is it not actually infinite like Masky says?
Oh and to thesage, D3's infigrab is a bit more complicated than spamming Z, therefore more steps to mess up on.
Levitas
the moon
it's possible to DI out under certain conditions, but if that happens, marth still get's a free smash.
This is more dramatic for lucas, who can DI out reliably at 20%
This is more dramatic for lucas, who can DI out reliably at 20%
Smashbros_7
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 724
When can Ness DI?
thesage
Smash Hero
I learned D3's infinite grab the first night I got the game. Don't say it's hard. It's just timing, and u can set grab to the c-stick to make it easier.
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Cort, are you sure about the jump break being impossible if they continuously grab attack? I've gotten out of it during continuous grab attacks, or are you talking continuous top speed grab attacks? I'm just trying to clarify to make sure you've done enough work on this for me to give up on trying to escape.
Ztarfish, you were left shielding awkwardly because pressing Z at the wrong time for some reason makes you shield. Yeah, Brawl's controls are messed up (just try setting C-stick to tilt and then try repeatedly tilting, you'll jump for some reason).
What I was referring to before was specifically DK's cargo grab combo, which Ness can't jump-escape out of. At higher percentages (~120%) Ness can DI far enough away out of the grab that DK can't grab Ness again without moving. Still could lead to a 0-death combo, but DK can't grab forever.
What I was referring to before was specifically DK's cargo grab combo, which Ness can't jump-escape out of. At higher percentages (~120%) Ness can DI far enough away out of the grab that DK can't grab Ness again without moving. Still could lead to a 0-death combo, but DK can't grab forever.
Conda
aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Guys, why don't we just get Ness-chaingrabbing banned in tournies? This is the kind of thing that gets banned.
I'm not saying all chaingrabbing should be banned, so don't go offtopic and start talking about that. Since Ness is the only one who can be changrabbed like this by Marth etc, it can and likely will be banned.
Unless you all keep whining.
I'm not saying all chaingrabbing should be banned, so don't go offtopic and start talking about that. Since Ness is the only one who can be changrabbed like this by Marth etc, it can and likely will be banned.
Unless you all keep whining.
Apparently other characters (but not Ness!) suffer from the same problem with Yoshi. Falco also has a dthrow chain on a lot of characters: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158858
Seeing as how this is NOT an issue specific to Ness/Lucas, I think it's a real possibility this could be banned.
Seeing as how this is NOT an issue specific to Ness/Lucas, I think it's a real possibility this could be banned.
You are totally missing the point. Totally. Read the thread properly.
Bottom line: ness and lucas will go down.
Bottom line: ness and lucas will go down.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Yeah yoshi can CG, he can only infinite (like forever infinite) Wario with precise timing. But still he has to run to get it to work so he can only tack on like 10-15% before you reach the end of the level (used it a few times on people) so it's not really practical when you can land one aerial that does the same damage. Is this how marth is on ness? or does he not have to move to keep the CG going?
Ademisk
Smash Champion
Marth still moves slightly. It's not an infinite. It's still a free 80%~ damage from one end of the stage to the other. though. This will never get banned, not in a million years. And no other character has a problem like this. Now if Cort could answer my question, I would be very happy.
Gindler
Smash Champion
Yeah, yoshi has to do the dash grab in most cases.
Hmmm, well I guess if you're fighting marth you better not use Ness. From what I've read Marth destroys ness anyway due to his reach, but yeah just throw your secondaries (or just non-ness characters) at Marth I don't see too many anymore anywho do to the huge flux in MK's and what nots.
Hmmm, well I guess if you're fighting marth you better not use Ness. From what I've read Marth destroys ness anyway due to his reach, but yeah just throw your secondaries (or just non-ness characters) at Marth I don't see too many anymore anywho do to the huge flux in MK's and what nots.
Conda
aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Why won't this get banned, Ademisk? It makes Ness useless. Literally. This kind of chaingrabbing is hardly even a part of smash's combat system worth savouring. It's just a plain stupid exploit that is made possible due to crappy programming.
Otherchaingrabs are fine as they aren't a big deal, but this one is just ridiculous.
Also, Marth doesn't completely roll Ness otherwise. He's not the hardest character to beat.
Otherchaingrabs are fine as they aren't a big deal, but this one is just ridiculous.
Also, Marth doesn't completely roll Ness otherwise. He's not the hardest character to beat.
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Spot Dodge immediately upon break out.