Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[Ztarfish]

I learned D3's infinite grab the first night I got the game. Don't say it's hard. It's just timing, and u can set grab to the c-stick to make it easier.

complicated =/= hard. By complicated i meant timing all the steps together.
How much timing does it take to spam Z?

 

[Ademisk]

It won't get banned because it's not even an infinite. It's a chaingrab, and chaingrabs never get banned. They banned stages rather than ban Dedede's.

And a Marth with good spacing is one of Ness's worst opponents.

This won't destroy Ness use entirely.....he'll still be better than Melee Ness.

 

[Personified Envy]

I know this may sound stupid, but if i see a player use a CG once, i'd do what some have mentioned before and DI away after an aerial. With Fair being almost lagless, why not aerial away with an Fair when being chased too.

Also if the opponent tends to dash grab, wouldn't that leave them open for a PK Fire or maybe a charged up-smash?

Yea I know, it may not entirely solve the problem, but at least we can try.

 

[Conda]

It won't get banned because it's not even an infinite. It's a chaingrab, and chaingrabs never get banned. They banned stages rather than ban Dedede's.

And a Marth with good spacing is one of Ness's worst opponents.

This won't destroy Ness use entirely.....he'll still be better than Melee Ness.

Dedede's chaingrab isn't broken, though. And IC's chaingrab is difficult to pull off. Marth's chaingrab on Ness, however, is a piece of cake and literally free 80-100% damage. It's ridiculous.
And it's inescapable up to high percentages, which is a big deal. Dedede's chaingrab ends once he reaches the end of the stage. Same with Falco's.
And this is a special case. People may not want to ban excessive chaingrabs (above 3~ grabs), but I think certain cases should be considered. What if Metaknight had a chaingrab on Snake that did 100% damage and was inescapable? I wouldn't blame snake users for complaining about it and vouching for a ban/%limit.

Heck, Ness has enough trouble getting rep in tournies as it is, this is basically putting the nails in the coffin.

 

[Gindler]

Hmmm, yeah I'd just use someone other than ness against a marth. You don't want to go into tournies only being able to use one character anywho.

 

[Smashbros_7]

**** you Marth.

 

[Cort]

Spot Dodge immediately upon break out.

Good job reading the thread.

 

[slikvik]

lol at people saying don't get grabbed

 

[Ademisk]

Dedede's chaingrab isn't broken, though. And IC's chaingrab is difficult to pull off. Marth's chaingrab on Ness, however, is a piece of cake and literally free 80-100% damage. It's ridiculous.
And it's inescapable up to high percentages, which is a big deal. Dedede's chaingrab ends once he reaches the end of the stage. Same with Falco's.
And this is a special case. People may not want to ban excessive chaingrabs (above 3~ grabs), but I think certain cases should be considered. What if Metaknight had a chaingrab on Snake that did 100% damage and was inescapable? I wouldn't blame snake users for complaining about it and vouching for a ban/%limit.

Heck, Ness has enough trouble getting rep in tournies as it is, this is basically putting the nails in the coffin.

Ness will become unusable before people consider banning a chaingrab. Every time someone grabs and does the chaingrab people will be like 'OMG, ROUND DIDN'T COUNT, JOHNS JOHNS JOHNS" even if the person only did it 3 or 4 times. Banning a chaingrab creates big problems for tournament runners, so chances are, they won't ban it.

 

[Wave⁂]

1. Aww ****.

2. It's a good thing I don't main Ness

3. Couldn't you jump *reads* oh wait...

4. Cort is totally dominating this thread.

5. Banning this will be impossible. Even if you ban 3+ consecutive grabs, you haven't counted the advantage you get from smashing after wards, and then mindgamesing or out of shield grabbing again.

EDIT: I'm sorry, did someone actually suggest a damage limit to how long you could do this? Are you serious?

 

[Ademisk]

Thank you Annoying, you put it better than me.

The only thing I wonder about is whether jump breaking is truly 100% preventable by the person doing the chaingrab and how sure we are of that fact.

I'll use Ness until the end of time, and I have a trump card in the works anyway.

 

[thesage]

DDD's cg on Samus, Bowser, Mario, and Luigi are unescable as DDD doesn't even have to move. He stands in place, grabs, d-throw, grabs, d-throw. That makes 4 characters unplayable against DDD. What worries me is not that it can be done, but that other characters can do this.

 

[Tyr_03]

*gives up on Brawl...goes back to Melee*

 

[Xiivi]

yay i lost a tournament today to this. really gay

I was there for this. I'm sorry that your main is useless now N.OW. I really enjoyed how good you were with Ness. However I don't think even you can avoid being grabbed an entire match.

The fact 32/39 characters can do this (4 without any movement, 28 with movement) can do this is ridiculous.

Anyway, banning this will not get people anywhere. Because then it just becomes a grab becomes a free smash attack against Ness/Lucas. Sorry, but grabs becoming free smash attacks seriously hampered a character.

 

[Undrdog]

This is a technique that isn't easily performed. Meaning it's obvious if you're trying to do it. This being said this technique will be banned if it's as abusable as people think.

Don't quit playing Lucas or Ness if you are good with them.


And get out of the Brawl rooms if you're just going to john. /targeted at no one in particular.


EDIT: Oh and Grab = Free Smash doesn't equal broken by any means.

 

[Conda]

*gives up on Brawl...goes back to Melee*

Sorry, but Ness, even with this disadvantage, is much better in Brawl than he ever was in melee.

 

[Gum]

well what about grab breaks people? hitting grab at the same time as your opponent prevents their grab entirely, and you can do this at any time, even if they shield grab. I dont think many have caught onto how this is something that needs to be perfected in Brawl high level play. Its like parrying in 3rd Strike. A serious Ness/Lucas player in high level competition using this technique along with good spacing can be very successful and can pretty much avoid being grabbed entirely.

 

[Gindler]

Yeah come to think of it I don't get grabbed very often at all. Maybe like twice a match tops, then again if they knew they could infinite I'm sure they'd do that rather than smashing out of shield.

 

[Gum]

well plus if you pick ness or lucas, and your opponent sees that as an opportunity, you can pretty much bet that they will go for it. Anytime you know that YOU would grab if you were them, just hit grab and more than likely you will counter grab.

 

[Gindler]

True, not many people have ness fighting experience though cause everyone uses the "better" characters. So I'd rely on that as well. Then again whenever I fight someone we both seem to end up taking it into the air more often than not, and everyone knows you can't grab in the air. I just hope that people don't toss ness and lucas to the curb just cause they can be chaingrabbed. Honestly that's like saying don't fight ness cause he has a 5% kill attack (spike), although aparently marth's chaingrab is easy to do even though I can't seem to do it in training to a ness (must be the comps ungodly timings)

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I'm sad for the Ness users, but **** Lucas. I'm glad that little yellow-haired homo is unplayable now. All of my mains can do it to him, so

 

[Gum]

True, not many people have ness fighting experience though cause everyone uses the "better" characters. So I'd rely on that as well. Then again whenever I fight someone we both seem to end up taking it into the air more often than not, and everyone knows you can't grab in the air. I just hope that people don't toss ness and lucas to the curb just cause they can be chaingrabbed. Honestly that's like saying don't fight ness cause he has a 5% kill attack (spike), although aparently marth's chaingrab is easy to do even though I can't seem to do it in training to a ness (must be the comps ungodly timings)

Seriousley, just make counter grabs a priority to practice. It is pretty **** top tier and will definitely help against this new menace. Ive gotten it down pretty well and it works, so Im gonna keep using Ness.

 

[N.OW]

Anyone who thinks they can avoid being grabbed in brawl is very stupid. Also this should be banned in some way but it is hard to enforce. Brawl just fails hard

 

[Ademisk]

This is a technique that isn't easily performed. Meaning it's obvious if you're trying to do it. This being said this technique will be banned if it's as abusable as people think.

Don't quit playing Lucas or Ness if you are good with them.


And get out of the Brawl rooms if you're just going to john. /targeted at no one in particular.


EDIT: Oh and Grab = Free Smash doesn't equal broken by any means.

This technique is extremely easy to perform, at least with Marth I know it is.

And it will not be banned. Tournament Hosts would rather drop 2 characters' tier lists to near bottom than go through the hassle of banning a chaingrab. At least, I would, in their place.

 

[Xiivi]

Anyone who thinks they can avoid being grabbed in brawl is very stupid. Also this should be banned in some way but it is hard to enforce. Brawl just fails hard

I'm sad to hear you say that. Maybe you should start working on your Snake more. You may need to give up on Ness if this really does pan out to be the end-all for Ness and Lucas.

Too many factors go into banning tactics like this. Stall tactics are easier, but these kind just aren't as easily enforceable.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I just did some testing with this, and I have to conclude that it's far more character dependent than initially stated. Note that I did all tests with Ness as the target, not Lucas. Also note that this is generally a far less big deal than it is being made out as. Very low percentages and somewhat high percentages seem to have a fairly easy time doing the jump escape. As long as the Ness player is reasonably good at mashing, this will probably not ruin a matchup for him.

The following four characters can continue this combo unless interrupted by a jump break without moving: Charizard, Marth, Lucas, Snake.

That's it. If they just stand there mashing Z, anyone but those four is inescapable. Other than Lucas, the tether characters are too slow to regrab. Yoshi has the added quirk of ALWAYS being escaped with a jump escape so just add yet another disadvantage to Yoshi's ever growing list. That means we have this list:

Characters who cannot grab combo: Yoshi, Link, Toon Link, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Ivysaur

As per the other 28 characters, they are not feasible to test alone as their trick is a "step" version where they take a step forward (quickly so they slide) and grab Ness. For some it's far easier than for others. Squirtle seems to have the easiest regrab while Donkey Kong seems to have the hardest (DK's is almost certainly not forced). I cannot provide further testing here as I'd need another human trying his hardest to escape; those interesting in discovering just how much this matters to Ness should point their attention here. Also, I do not know if Lucas is the exact same; I did not test him.

EDIT: I just tested this with DK's cargo throw, and it is forced standing. Even more, it doesn't seem to allow a jump escape which means that Donkey Kong has an infinite combo against Ness and Lucas. I tested if this works against any other characters beside Ness and Lucas, and while the window to escape DK is very small, everyone else I tested could.

Thank you for testing this, this is the information I asked for earlier.

Quick question: Can any of the characters who can't grab combo use this to directly combo into a ftilt or jab?

 

[Grunt]

Lolimadumass

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I have tested this, and most characters cannot continue if Lucas does a jump escape. some are decent at it, but others, especially Falco have a hard time doing it.

You cannot jump escape if they press the button fast enough. THAT'S THE REASON IT'S BROKEN.

 

[Grunt]

Yeah i actually just got this to work, so never mind.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I made a list of the worst things that each character can do to you from a grab break.

I think that Ness and Lucas may still remain as counter-picks in tournaments, but certainly not as mains.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

I think you guys are missing something very important.

JUST BECAUSE A TECHNIQUE RUINS A CHARACTER, DOES NOT MEAN THE TECHNIQUE WILL BE BANNED! Should we start banning all sorts of techs characters can do that severely hurt other characters? Why should Lucas and Ness be preferred? If they go down, they go down. No banning crap just because it makes Ness and Lucas useless.

And as a Lucas second, this is hard for me to say.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Because it makes them USELESS. No other character has something like that. They can all be competant to some level no matter how weak they are. But none of them are outright shut down by something that almost all characters in the game can do.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Because it makes them USELESS. No other character has something like that. They can all be competant to some level no matter how weak they are. But none of them are outright shut down by something that almost all characters in the game can do.

Ness and Lucas can still be 'competent.' They're just ridiculously hampered by the stranglegrab. If you don't get grabbed, it's not a problem, right?

If you think this makes Ness/Lucas suck, then get a new main. You always have that option.

 

[Kirby Gotenks absorbed]

You can just dash and regrab Lucas if he DIs away from the break out

You roll away.

 

[Cort]

Have you read anything in this thread?

I'm sure I would have made it if you can simply roll away and it's escapable.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

Because it makes them USELESS. No other character has something like that. They can all be competant to some level no matter how weak they are. But none of them are outright shut down by something that almost all characters in the game can do.

Lol so? Did we ban all sorts of techniques in Melee that made other characters useless? No. We didn't make insane accomadations for Bowser so he could be competent.

And no, Ness and Lucas aren't useless now. Just severely hampered.

 

[thesage]

Lol so? Did we ban all sorts of techniques in Melee that made other characters useless? No. We didn't make insane accomadations for Bowser so he could be competent.

And no, Ness and Lucas aren't useless now. Just severely hampered.

Bowser wouldn't have been competent even without cgs as only a handful of characters in the game could do that to him. It's just that he was bad in general. Ness is, besides this, a decent character.

 

[Ademisk]

I retract my question.

 

[Xiivi]

****it, my question continues to not be answered, this is why I don't post here anymore.

I require proof that jump breaks can be prevented 100% by my opponent. Has anyone sufficiently tested this that can give me a straight answer?

Nessbounder tested this at 1/4 speed and according to him only 3 characters could be jump-broken out of and no else.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The thing is, you cannot jump break while you're in hit-stun while being grabbed. You have to hit jump as your final break-out button JUST as you recover from hit-stun after being grab attacked, and what's more, most characters have very fast grab attacks that keep you in a constant hit-stun state if they use the move repeatedly. So there is no hope for jump breaks.