Doubles and You, a Comprehensive Guide to 2v2s

[Adapt]

ZSS is a better DPS than Punisher.

Carry: 6
Stock Tank: 7
Punisher: 6
DPS: 9.5

Yes she can setup absurdly low % kills with stuns, but that really doesn't fit properly into any of your categories. It even might work best in the DPS category because she can get ~50% combos in a blink with stuns

Perhaps you should add a new category that somehow describes synergy. Characters like GaW, ZSS, Snake, and Lucas/Ness reward a team for thinking and playing as one. This is where you can include all the gimmicks and tricks that a pair of characters can accomplish.
Characters like Falco, Samus, DK, and Wolf would have lower synergy with other characters because their attacks frequently get in the way and you must actively think like a team just to avoid hitting your teammate all the time.
MK for example would be in the middle of this (~5), because he is a very independent character and while he works best by taking one of the opponents and beating the pulp out of them, he has some nice team tricks as well.

 

[Flayl]

Please tell me how in any shape or form ZSS is a 7 in the stock tank category.

 

[Sinz]

To everyone who is posting giving their character 8s, 9s, and 10s. Please take a few points from your character. Character bias is not welcome.

 

[Meru.]

Peach
Carry- 8
Stock Tank - 7
Punisher - 5
DPS - 10

Zelda
Carry - 3
Stock Tank - 7 (?)
Punisher - 9
DPS - 7 (?)

imo.

 

[DanGR]

Off to a good start, Needs more categories and differentiation between them though, at the very least needs a category for a character that's literal purpose is to control space limiting your opponent's options so that your teammate is able do take advantage of this. Marth and (dare I say it) Zelda are actually quite good at this, and works well with a good carry, punisher, or DPS character.

MK + Zelda is AMAZING for this reason.

With this team you've got...

1. A stock tank and carrier in a campy MK focused on limiting space.
2. A nice punisher in Zelda.
3. High DPS and early gimp kills with MK.
4. Nice control of the stage with MK, limiting space the opponents can move to help Zelda (read: adumbrodeus' post)
5. A character that can help Zelda with her troublesome recovery in MK.

All of this and team combos. For example, tornado + Din's up close, and shuttle loop/d-air eating through offstage air dodges coming as a result of Din's, for easier gimp kills.

It's amazing.

 

[Adapt]

Please tell me how in any shape or form ZSS is a 7 in the stock tank category.

I compared my her to other characters with 6/7/8
She has excellent aerial mobility, a weak braking move (better than none), quite a good recovery, can attack without coming into range of nearly any character when played carefully.

She has a better recovery and lives to ~the same percents, plus being more mobile than Marth (6)
She has a better recovery and is more mobile than mario (7), but doesn't live as high
She lives much better than Kirby (7) but has a weaker recovery.
Toon Link is listed as an 8. He has a weaker recovery, and lives to around the same percent

Charizard is listed as a 7 as well, but that has to be wrong

I can see moving her down to a 6 easily, but other characters have to be adjusted as well for me to believe that.

 

[Xebenkeck]

For Ness
Carry - 3
There is no way he is good in a 2 V 1 scenario he will get destroyed fairly quickly by grab combos, etc. He only has the spacing tools to deal with one character not two. In a 1 v 1 scenario Ness has fairly decent match-ups overall, so depending on who he is left with he shoud be able to hold his own in most scenarios. I give a 3 because 2 v 1 he is horrible and screwed.

Stock Tank - 6
The only reason Ness is a good stock Tank is because he can heal himself. However Ness being a stock tank is highly dependant on who he is paired with, With Marth or MK stocktank would be 1, with someone like mario or pit about a six, or someone like ZSS and IC he would be a 10. Each represt projectile healing, Marth can't, Mario moderatly can, and IC can heal 30%ish in 1 blizzard. Don't be fooled though Ness still has a average recovery, and it can hamper his role as being the Stock Tank. So this is why i only give a six.
*Lucas' Tank # should always be higher then Ness' .*

Punisher - 8
One of Ness' few strengths is his kill power. He has a multitude of kill moves and high damaging moves. Tipper Fsmash, PKT2, Uair, Bair, Dair, Bthrow. All have high kill potency, and are alot easier to land in doubles then singles. He is a good punisher but by no means in the rank of DK, Ike, or Snake.

DPS - 6
Ness has a number of low percent, true and pseudo combos. Which generally do about 35%. Pk fire is really useful for high damaging team combos. Ness also has a lot of high damaging attacks, ex, Tipper Fsmash does 26%. But when enemies get to higher percents Ness' damage racking starts to tale off also, and he will have to start going for induvidual hits instead of stringing moves together. Nair and Fair will generally be stale and do mediocre amounts of damage.

Overall Ness is a decent damage racker, but he is best used as punishing and killing others, while being healed by a partner to be the stock tank. Ness' best partners have to have a energy based projectile and they need to be able to rack damage. Some good options are Falco, ZSS, and Zelda.

 

[UTDZac]

Mr. Game & Watch:
Carry- 7
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 10*** (just pretend this is a 9 Zac )
DPS- 7

*** Judgment, usmash, fsmash, dsmash, freaking everything GnW has, kills. He is without a doubt the best punishing character in doubles, and it's no wonder he's regarded as one of the top doubles characters.

Just wanted to clarify a few things. In the hands of a smart player (like any other character I guess) G&W is a godsend in teams. In my opinion, G&W ranks as follows:

Carry: 8
Stock Tank: 7-9
Punisher: 10
DPS: 8-10

G&W can be an amazing stock tank with bucket braking and "planking" / running away. G&W can also dish out a lot of damage really really fast. Most, if not all, teams matches I've played, I have done more damage than my teammate. It really all depends on the playstyle the user chooses to have. If he keeps rushing in, he will get a huge DPS score, but not do so well at Stock Tanking. If he stays back, runs, and UpBs a lot, he'll manage to Stock Tank like none-other but won't do nearly as much damage as he could have.

There are a few qualities I fear you may have over looked about G&W:

• UpB - G&W has a fast start-up, invincible/high-priority, hard to punish, GTFO move... UpB. This move allows G&W to be so versatile it's ridiculous; it's power is completely underrated in teams. Have you ever tried using UpB literally every other move in teams? It's so fast and hard to punish, especially with a small mix-up here and there. Believe it or not, this is G&W's most important move in teams... well second to his ******** killing power.
• Windboxes - G&W, unlike most other characters, has two moves that create windboxes really fast. This allows G&W to do what most characters could only dream of, saving their teammates from death at any percent. Sure all characters can footstool but that's pretty hard to do and occurs rarely even among pros. However, with G&W's uair you can save a teammate several feet above you! This allows G&W to sit back, not fight, and let his teammate safely throw out attacks without a fear of dieing horizontally.
• Move Decay - G&W, unlike most characters, does not suffer from move decay in teams. Because of how easier it is to just UpB OoS when standing next to someone (UpB's windbox restores decay) without getting punished AND how easy it is to Uair anyone (including your teammate) that gets above you, G&W is able to restore his decay in a matter of seconds. It happens so fast since there are four people on the screen, you don't even realize it. G&W's kill moves can be refreshed whenever you like, so spamming them / using them to rack up damage is actually an OK strategy.
• Judgment - G&W is one of the few characters that has a OHKO (One-Hit KO) move. Sure it may not be the easiest to hit with, but that doesn't matter in teams. In teams a grab by your teammate on the opponent = death. Most characters when partnered with G&W have a grab option that guarantees a hit with a Judgment. MK = Dthrow, Uthrow. Snake = Uthrow, GrabRelease. Wario = Fthrow, Dthrow. If anything they can just hold them there. If you don't think this is a viable quality, ask Dojo. He can testify to it's power.
• Bucket - Lol wtf is this? You are telling me they created a character that when paired with certain characters from the cast it now has a hidden OHKO move that comes out on frame 2? Silly G&W, why are you so broken. Anyway, you've heard of the G&W + ZSS team? Yeah it's powerful. G&W can do the same thing with quite a few other characters too like Lucario, Pikachu, Luigi, Zelda, Pit, Ness, Lucas, Kirby, ROB. They all give G&W a bucket so powerful it KOs from 0% - 30%. This quality isn't as amazing as the others, but it's nothing to just skim over. There's only like 2 other characters in the game that benefit from character pairs in a similar way.

tl;dr G&W is like a Swiss Army Knife for teams. He's whatever you want in any situation. He can easily adapt to bad scenarios by changing playstyles in the middle of a game. He's a fragile character, no doubt, but in the right hands of a smart player he becomes like a balloon in a wind tunnel.

 

[LuigiKing]

This thread looks like it might have some epic potential, good stuff.

Also I cry a little every time I see my tag in UTD's sig....

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

personally, i think overall that Mr GaW is the best character in teams with MK being in second, Snake in 3rd, Wario in 4th, and Zamus in 5th, for reasons listed.

 

[smashkng]

Charizard is too heavy to only be 7. And Link and Ganon side, as long as your partner can prevent them from getting gimped and they can DI properly, they're going to live forever. I don't agree with Falcon either, because he's much heavier than he looks. And I can't believe Bowser is 6 as a stock tank.

And how can Olimar be 6? He's both light and has a bad recovery.

Snake DPS can't be true. Sure he has bad combos but one ftilt does 21% damage and if all hits of dair/nair hit, it deals 30% damage. He isn't as hopeless as it might think, it's just like a tech-chasing when he's in the air.

 

[True Romance]

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but what should rob's role be in doubles when partnered with mk? My team mate and I have found it hard to make this combo work in recent tournies.

 

[ZMan]

Lucas:
Carry- 3
Stock Tank- 6/9
Punisher- 9
DPS- 7

what is this i don't even.

everything else seems right though. ill elaborate more when i can sound like i know something

 

[Flayl]

It's good to know Dekar just ****s all over people's input lol.

 

[Dekar173]

ZSS is a better DPS than Punisher.

Carry: 6
Stock Tank: 7
Punisher: 6
DPS: 9.5

Ya I was thinking on this and her capabilities of stunning for some amazing combos/damage definitely go into the DPS category.

Perhaps you should add a new category that somehow describes synergy. Characters like GaW, ZSS, Snake, and Lucas/Ness reward a team for thinking and playing as one. This is where you can include all the gimmicks and tricks that a pair of characters can accomplish.
Characters like Falco, Samus, DK, and Wolf would have lower synergy with other characters because their attacks frequently get in the way and you must actively think like a team just to avoid hitting your teammate all the time.
MK for example would be in the middle of this (~5), because he is a very independent character and while he works best by taking one of the opponents and beating the pulp out of them, he has some nice team tricks as well.

First reply in red, paragraph answers on the other hand aren't so pretty when red!


I'm definitely going to be adding a new category, it'll be pretty abstract in comparison to ones like Punishing and Stock Tanking, but it'll still give a little clarification on certain strengths you can cater to in doubles.

Please tell me how in any shape or form ZSS is a 7 in the stock tank category.

It's already been summed up, but for this thread's sake I'm answering with this:

She has a versatile, speedy recovery.

She is VERY capable of defensively zoning to the point where she is out of range for her opponent, yet still a threat to the point where they can't just 2v1 her teammate.

She IS light, so she doesn't get anything higher than a 7.

Peach
Carry- 8
Stock Tank - 7
Punisher - 5
DPS - 10

imo.

Peach's dair is DIable, and being her bread and butter damage racker, it definitely damages her DPS score.

She's BY NO MEANS useless, but she's definitely not the best damage racking character in the game.

As a carry, she has two glaring weaknesses- lack of range, and quite a few poor match-ups (especially in the higher tiers).

Just wanted to clarify a few things. In the hands of a smart player (like any other character I guess) G&W is a godsend in teams. In my opinion, G&W ranks as follows:

Carry: 8 I gave him a 7, you gave him an 8
Stock Tank: 7-9 I said 7!
Punisher: 10
DPS: 8-10 THIS I can't agree with, GnW may have combobility, but he isn't in the upper echelon of racking damage.

G&W can be an amazing stock tank with bucket braking and "planking" / running away. G&W can also dish out a lot of damage really really fast. Most, if not all, teams matches I've played, I have done more damage than my teammate. It really all depends on the playstyle the user chooses to have. If he keeps rushing in, he will get a huge DPS score, but not do so well at Stock Tanking. If he stays back, runs, and UpBs a lot, he'll manage to Stock Tank like none-other but won't do nearly as much damage as he could have.

I'm putting this in the second post, as it's common sense logic, but some people don't have common sense, and I couldn't have worded it better! Thanks

There are a few qualities I fear you may have over looked about G&W:

• UpB - G&W has a fast start-up, invincible/high-priority, hard to punish, GTFO move... UpB. This move allows G&W to be so versatile it's ridiculous; it's power is completely underrated in teams. Have you ever tried using UpB literally every other move in teams? It's so fast and hard to punish, especially with a small mix-up here and there. Believe it or not, this is G&W's most important move in teams... well second to his ******** killing power.
• Windboxes - G&W, unlike most other characters, has two moves that create windboxes really fast. This allows G&W to do what most characters could only dream of, saving their teammates from death at any percent. Sure all characters can footstool but that's pretty hard to do and occurs rarely even among pros. However, with G&W's uair you can save a teammate several feet above you! This allows G&W to sit back, not fight, and let his teammate safely throw out attacks without a fear of dieing horizontally.
• Move Decay - G&W, unlike most characters, does not suffer from move decay in teams. Because of how easier it is to just UpB OoS when standing next to someone (UpB's windbox restores decay) without getting punished AND how easy it is to Uair anyone (including your teammate) that gets above you, G&W is able to restore his decay in a matter of seconds. It happens so fast since there are four people on the screen, you don't even realize it. G&W's kill moves can be refreshed whenever you like, so spamming them / using them to rack up damage is actually an OK strategy.
• Judgment - G&W is one of the few characters that has a OHKO (One-Hit KO) move. Sure it may not be the easiest to hit with, but that doesn't matter in teams. In teams a grab by your teammate on the opponent = death. Most characters when partnered with G&W have a grab option that guarantees a hit with a Judgment. MK = Dthrow, Uthrow. Snake = Uthrow, GrabRelease. Wario = Fthrow, Dthrow. If anything they can just hold them there. If you don't think this is a viable quality, ask Dojo. He can testify to it's power.
• Bucket - Lol wtf is this? You are telling me they created a character that when paired with certain characters from the cast it now has a hidden OHKO move that comes out on frame 2? Silly G&W, why are you so broken. Anyway, you've heard of the G&W + ZSS team? Yeah it's powerful. G&W can do the same thing with quite a few other characters too like Lucario, Pikachu, Luigi, Zelda, Pit, Ness, Lucas, Kirby, ROB. They all give G&W a bucket so powerful it KOs from 0% - 30%. This quality isn't as amazing as the others, but it's nothing to just skim over. There's only like 2 other characters in the game that benefit from character pairs in a similar way.

This guide is DEFINITELY not done yet, I was just starting it up so we could get the ball rolling on some actual doubles talk :D
As for the more gimmicky things you've noted, those will be in the write-ups for each character.

tl;dr G&W is like a Swiss Army Knife for teams. He's whatever you want in any situation. He can easily adapt to bad scenarios by changing playstyles in the middle of a game. He's a fragile character, no doubt, but in the right hands of a smart player he becomes like a balloon in a wind tunnel.

All answers in red ;P

Charizard is too heavy to only be 7
He's too fat/has too linear a recovery to be anything higher than a 7.

And Link and Ganon side, as long as your partner can prevent them from getting gimped and they can DI properly, they're going to live forever.
I completely agree with you there, BUT that's only with what I call "babysitting" aiding them. I'll be tacking on secondary Stock Tank scores to notify people of their glaring weakness and how to remedy them.

I don't agree with Falcon either, because he's much heavier than he looks. And I can't believe Bowser is 6 as a stock tank.
Just like Link and Ganon, CF is extremely gimpable. I'll be adding a secondary score for him as well.

And how can Olimar be 6? He's both light and has a bad recovery.
Olimar's weaknesses are overcome by his EXTREME strength- defensive zoning. He literally has a fortress of pikmin surrounding him at all times, and it's VERY difficult for people to actually "get in" on him in order to get him offstage.

Snake DPS can't be true. Sure he has bad combos but one ftilt does 21% damage and if all hits of dair/nair hit, it deals 30% damage. He isn't as hopeless as it might think, it's just like a tech-chasing when he's in the air.

Ftilt can be DI'd out of, but was still taken into account. It's just that there are characters out there with MUCH better damage racking options.

All hits of dair WILL NEVER HIT. It is far too easy to DI out of it > punish.

Nair on the other hand, is alright, but can still be interrupted/DI'd out of.

what is this i don't even.
Just because I **** your stocks in doubles doesn't mean Lucas is horrid at Stock Tanking, I've seen you play against other people

everything else seems right though. ill elaborate more when i can sound like i know something

It's good to know Dekar just ****s all over people's input lol.

A lot of the input, though appreciated, isn't taking into account the WHOLE aspect of survivability, carrying, DPS, etc.







Also, updated second post with an overview, and am currently adding write-ups for each character.

New stat to be added- "Assist/Support"

 

[Zankoku]

Hey, my post didn't even get quoted.

 

[Deleted member]

The entire basis of this thread is imo incorrect.
I think ive heard you being pretty good at doubles, but the whole concept of carries and DPS is really absurd.
You should not base a characters quality on their 2v1 ability, but rather how well they avoid that, by contributing to the team.

Stock tanking is imo based just as much on how safe the character can play as how heavy they are, but also, is very player dependant. Most characters can stock tank played by a player who is good at that, and though DK and wario will be surviving for a while, a defensive playing pika can survive equally long with ledge camping and such. I dont mean to say that being heavy isnt important, as it is sooo vital and in combination with good DI and a smart defensively minded player, it can be really a pain to take down.

DPS doesnt make any sense, this is brawl, why would combos make someone a good team character? Most characters dont have reliable combos, and racking up damage is sort of the basis of brawl. Obviously MK is going to be good at racking up damage, but snake is also amazing in teams and can rack up damage equally fast.

Punisher i guess makes sense? I dunno, ganon is still pretty ****ty in teams if the opponent knows what they are doing. Punisher also is definately not a role in a team, you simply cant do well thinking that your main role is to kill at low percents, because it simply will not always happen in a game, especially against high level players.

o_O

 

[Sinz]

Carries makes absolute sense. DPS is iffy. But, it all makes sense.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really.
Its usually more aggressor and not aggressor than a guy who carries the team in high level doubles, because in the case of a MK MK team or a MK Snake (both which are very effective), its not like one character is gonna be better at a 2v1 situation, itll be more either split them up and 1v1, or one will be more aggressive and the other will camp.

Not saying things like stock tanks dont exist, and maybe carry is just another word for what im talking about, but from his description, i dont think so, and it sounds like lower level doubles or something.

 

[Dekar173]

Hey, my post didn't even get quoted.

I didn't really see anything that I disagreed with for Sheik =P

The entire basis of this thread is imo incorrect.
I think ive heard you being pretty good at doubles, but the whole concept of carries and DPS is really absurd.
You should not base a characters quality on their 2v1 ability, but rather how well they avoid that, by contributing to the team.
Where did I say that a character is entirely based upon 2v1 scenarios? It's listed, yes, because it's definitely a scenario that comes up 9 times out of 10 in doubles matches (you don't think both teammates ALWAYS die at the same time, do you?)

Stock tanking is imo based just as much on how safe the character can play as how heavy they are, but also, is very player dependant. Most characters can stock tank played by a player who is good at that, and though DK and wario will be surviving for a while, a defensive playing pika can survive equally long with ledge camping and such. I dont mean to say that being heavy isnt important, as it is sooo vital and in combination with good DI and a smart defensively minded player, it can be really a pain to take down.

Yes but let's take into account that this is Doubles- what is Pikachu doing to contribute to the team? All he's doing is keeping his own stocks, but that's not helping his teammate keep HIS stocks, now is it? Stock Tanking isn't all about keeping your own stocks.

You're thinking like this is Singles we're talking about. If that were the case, Ganon would have 0 for his Stock Tank rating and a 2 for punishing.

DPS doesnt make any sense, this is brawl, why would combos make someone a good team character? Most characters dont have reliable combos these characters are NOT DPS characters, and racking up damage is sort of the basis of brawl Um, yes, and certain characters are obviously better at it!. Obviously MK is going to be good at racking up damage, but snake is also amazing in teams and can rack up damage equally fast.

This guide is more to find what niche certain characters fill, and which ones they lack, helping to find out what characters would be well suited for teaming with each other.

"I rack up damage but can't get those darn kills!"

"Whaddya know, I kill like a mother ****er"

"Team?"

"k."

Punisher i guess makes sense? I dunno, ganon is still pretty ****ty in teams if the opponent knows what they are doing. Punisher also is definately not a role in a team, you simply cant do well thinking that your main role is to kill at low percents, because it simply will not always happen in a game, especially against high level players.

Zac gets some pretty **** early kills if I recall correctly.

o_O

tl;dr this is a guide for knowing what your character(s) do well, and not so well, and how to adapt your playstyle accordingly in Doubles in order to find success.

Of course, it's not done, and definitely requires a bit more depth, so I can see why you're concerned with it. Maybe you should read the thread's title?

 

[Deleted member]

Hah i guess
When you put it that way its just sounds really basic.
Who survives well, who does damage effectively (pretty much most high tiers in doubles), who kills easiest.
So this is just outlining like what your character does well in a doubles scenario, not like their specific role and playstyle in doubles (kind of encompassing but not entirely)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

"DPS: 8-10 THIS I can't agree with, GnW may have combobility, but he isn't in the upper echelon of racking damage."

I'll keep this short, but I really think UTD Zac has the right of this. I wouldn't say a ten, but going 8 or even 9 is perfectly reasonable. First off, as you noted, G&W has great damage in his multihit options (Nair/Bair primarily). These can easily be used on the opponent as they are thrown by your teammate, or just thrown out "cold", and the damage/safety ratio is more than solid. Simple enough here; long lasting moves that do good damage are ample enough at dealing damage to an enemy, or, in a lot of cases, both of the enemies.

However, this is neglecting a lot of his moves that are much easier to hit with in doubles than singles that are huge power houses knockback AND damage. All of his smashes do damage in the upper teens into the twenties based on charge. Fsmash in particular hits for 19% without charging it at all. These are also notoriously easy to land in Doubles with teamwork and the tighter, less narrow-focused gameplay. Besides the smashes, his Dair and Fair do a ton. Dair is much easier to land on (multiple) opponents in doubles than in singles.

Lastly, as Zac noted, G&W is the best at refreshing his stale moves out of the entire cast. With liberal use of his upB and Uair, he will be hitting with max damage on all of his important moves more often than, say, Snake landing his few choice moves throughout the stock.

Also, as Game & Watch's hitboxes are, on a whole, lingering hitboxes in some way or another (typical and multihit), he can catch opponents in these moves easier than a precise hit can on average.

Game & Watch has really good damage capabilities in doubles. I'd personally bump up the stats you have for him, except maybe stock tank (even then, he has bucket braking and an awesome recovery), with the obvious exception of punishing which is already a 10. DPS is something G&W is certainly great at in doubles, and I think it warrants being raised in your second post to more accurately reflect this. I can't wait to see your new category, as well, as thats just another area G&W excels at in Doubles.

Also, good job on the thread. It's a fun and interesting read.

 

[TP]

I strongly disagree with Ganon getting only a 4 in DPS, and a 1 on Stock Tank is just laughable. I rarely get gimped EVER in singles unless I'm against Mario or DDD, and I've gotten gimped ONCE in doubles, ever. It's so easy to avoid getting gimped with Ganon if you recover right. His recovery is still a huge weakness, but I stand behind the 5 I gave him for Tank... maybe 4.

As for DPS, it's like the only thing about Ganon worth talking about. Dair>Usmash>Uair is a true combo on some 10 or 15 characters for about 60% in one second, and landing flame chokes is much easier in doubles, doing about 20% per choke. I refuse to go below the 6 I gave him.

 

[Dekar173]

I strongly disagree with Ganon getting only a 4 in DPS, and a 1 on Stock Tank is just laughable. I rarely get gimped EVER in singles unless I'm against Mario or DDD, and I've gotten gimped ONCE in doubles, ever. It's so easy to avoid getting gimped with Ganon if you recover right. His recovery is still a huge weakness, but I stand behind the 5 I gave him for Tank... maybe 4.

As for DPS, it's like the only thing about Ganon worth talking about. Dair>Usmash>Uair is a true combo on some 10 or 15 characters for about 60% in one second, and landing flame chokes is much easier in doubles, doing about 20% per choke. I refuse to go below the 6 I gave him.

Who are you playing against? This is a serious question, as I have 0 issues with gimping Ganondorf/edge-guarding him to death.

I've got a serious match recorded of myself beating Kira's Ganondorf (a great ganon, taking into account all of the Ganons I've played) in 50 seconds.

DPS- I'm positive that's not a true combo if you include the uair, but I've felt the dair > usmash before and it's not fun. I see where you're coming from there but Stock Tank wise... that is definitely one of his glaring weaknesses.



As for GnW- I can see it, but in all honesty he's NOT a 10. I'll give him an 8. Also, updating second post so we're all clear on one thing-

any stat I've got up isn't definitive, think of it as more of a range than the all decisive "THIS IS HOW GOOD THEY ARE" indicator

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I agree with Ganon deserving a bit better in terms of his ratios. He is much better in Doubles than Singles, as he can actually land **** now (the characters are forced tighter together). I think a 1/7 as stock tank is a bit harsh, despite having a bad recovery. He can take a beating rather well, and DI can solve his recovery problems *somewhat*. He does require support from his teammate in a few cases, of course, but he is better than a 1.

And DPS is easily explained being higher simply because he has the most damaging moves of any character, but can't utilize this fact 1 v 1. In Doubles, he can actually land his high powered moves.

I dunno, I've teamed with Ganon on a few separate occasions, and all in all he did much better than I would of expected knowing how limited he is in singles. As to the last part of your post, fair enough.

 

[TP]

Who are you playing against? This is a serious question, as I have 0 issues with gimping Ganondorf/edge-guarding him to death.

I've got a serious match recorded of myself beating Kira's Ganondorf (a great ganon, taking into account all of the Ganons I've played) in 50 seconds.

DPS- I'm positive that's not a true combo if you include the uair, but I've felt the dair > usmash before and it's not fun. I see where you're coming from there but Stock Tank wise... that is definitely one of his glaring weaknesses.



As for GnW- I can see it, but in all honesty he's NOT a 10. I'll give him an 8. Also, updating second post so we're all clear on one thing-

any stat I've got up isn't definitive, think of it as more of a range than the all decisive "THIS IS HOW GOOD THEY ARE" indicator

I'll admit, I haven't played anyone notable in doubles. As for Kira, I just tried looking up youtube videos and only found wifi stuff. The lag in those fights was bad though, so I couldn't judge based on them (easy way to tell if an online match with Ganon is laggy: count the number of Dsmashes. If there is at least 1, then Dairs aren't getting through correctly). It's quite possible that I'm wrong about stock tanking.

As for damage racking, I'm serious when I say Ganon can get 60 or so damage in a few seconds, especially in doubles. I find it much easier to predict which way someone will roll after a choke in doubles (they always go toward their partner of course), which means I can often land a few chokes in a row and end it with a stomp.

 

[Flayl]

This thread is like the Balanced Brawl thread all over again. Good luck guys.

 

[Nicole]

Peach's dair is DIable, and being her bread and butter damage racker, it definitely damages her DPS score.

She's BY NO MEANS useless, but she's definitely not the best damage racking character in the game.

As a carry, she has two glaring weaknesses- lack of range, and quite a few poor match-ups (especially in the higher tiers).

Don't want to be biased towards my main here, but...

I play Peach, and I play Diddy, and I'm gonna tell you right now that Diddy does not rack damage as well as Peach. Both these characters combo well. Diddy may combo a bit better. But this makes no difference when you look at % done per move. What does Diddy's Bair do, 9%? Peach's does 14%. Diddy's Uair - 9% again? Peach is doing 12%. Peach Ftilt - 12%. Peach Bthrow - 12%. Peach Fair - 15%. Peach Dair - 15%. Peach Nair - 15%. Peach does not NEED to combo as much as Diddy. Let's not forget that Diddy has an item that, no matter how good you and your teammate are, can not only cause your opponent grievance, but your own team as well. Peach's turnips do not sit out on the battlefield waiting to get picked up by the opposition, nor does my opponent catching a thrown turnip bother me in the least. I'm not trying to take away from the excellent setup capabilities of bananas, I'm just pointing out that they CAN be hindrances.

Peach's Dair might be DI-able, but I'd like to see anyone get out of it consistently, especially fast fallers or fatties. One Dair -> Nair = 30%. Two Dair -> Uair/Nair = 40ish%. Claiming that a move is DI-able is all well and good, but let's not forget that our opponents don't often smash DI perfectly. I'll bet you get some Fsmash kills with Diddy, even though it's DI-able. Peach is one of the top damage rackers in the game, DI or no.

Lack of range? I disagree. Ftilt, Fair, Jab, Fsmash (not pan), Utilt, and Dtilt all have good range. Bair, Uair, Dsmash, and Usmash all have average range. I'm not saying her range is incredible by any means, but lack of range? Come on. Her range and Diddy's range are overall about the same, believe me, I know, I play them both. Her grab range is pathetic, I'll give you that.

As for the high tiers being bad matchups for Peach, well, matchups don't matter as much in doubles. Look at Ganon. He is usable in doubles, I watched a Snake and Ganon take first in doubles at a 57 man tourney. Besides MK, Peach has no worse matchups than 40:60. She has an advantage on Wario (a common teams char) and Diddy (THE BEST TEAMS CHAR EVER LOLOLOLOL), and can mostly avoid Snake's kill moves if the player knows what they're doing (no one can avoid being killed by Snake forever). She is not helpless against MK, but it's best if her partner fights him when possible. Marth is 55:45 IMO, Falco is rarely seen in teams (and with minimal lasers is much easier to deal with), DDD is even, GW is 40:60 and Peach avoids his kill moves well (again, if the player knows what they're doing).

And you ignored my bit about her being a good stock tank. She certainly deserves over a 4. I see WOLF is an 8, he has mediocre recovery and is pretty easy to edgehog/gimp. Peach has excellent momentum cancelling and is generally pretty evasive, not to mention quite difficult to gimp and even harder to edgehog. My partner (who mains Olimar) typically uses 4 stocks while I use 2. You think I jack off and throw turnips the entire match? I don't, I have to be racking damage so my Olimar can kill. Olimar also gets gimped like a *****. I -have- to be a good stock tank and save one of my lives for him, or we aren't going to win. If you play smart with Peach, her evasiveness, mad priority, and momentum cancelling allow her to stay alive for quite a long time.

I thought my first estimates were very accurate for Peach, so I'll give them to you again. I do not think she is the best option in teams, nor that she is good at all aspects of doubles. But what she does, she does very well.

Carry - 3
Stock Tank - 7.5/8
Punisher - 4
DPS - 10

 

[Dekar173]

Don't want to be biased towards my main here, but...

I play Peach, and I play Diddy, and I'm gonna tell you right now that Diddy does not rack damage as well as Peach. Both these characters combo well. Diddy may combo a bit better. But this makes no difference when you look at % done per move. What does Diddy's Bair do, 9%? Peach's does 14%. Diddy's Uair - 9% again? Peach is doing 12%. Peach Ftilt - 12%. Peach Bthrow - 12%. Peach Fair - 15%. Peach Dair - 15%. Peach Nair - 15%. Peach does not NEED to combo as much as Diddy. Let's not forget that Diddy has an item that, no matter how good you and your teammate are, can not only cause your opponent grievance, but your own team as well. Peach's turnips do not sit out on the battlefield waiting to get picked up by the opposition, nor does my opponent catching a thrown turnip bother me in the least. I'm not trying to take away from the excellent setup capabilities of bananas, I'm just pointing out that they CAN be hindrances.

Peach's Dair might be DI-able, but I'd like to see anyone get out of it consistently, especially fast fallers or fatties. One Dair -> Nair = 30%. Two Dair -> Uair/Nair = 40ish%. Claiming that a move is DI-able is all well and good, but let's not forget that our opponents don't often smash DI perfectly. I'll bet you get some Fsmash kills with Diddy, even though it's DI-able. Peach is one of the top damage rackers in the game, DI or no.

Lack of range? I disagree. Ftilt, Fair, Jab, Fsmash (not pan), Utilt, and Dtilt all have good range. Bair, Uair, Dsmash, and Usmash all have average range. I'm not saying her range is incredible by any means, but lack of range? Come on. Her range and Diddy's range are overall about the same, believe me, I know, I play them both. Her grab range is pathetic, I'll give you that.

As for the high tiers being bad matchups for Peach, well, matchups don't matter as much in doubles. Look at Ganon. He is usable in doubles, I watched a Snake and Ganon take first in doubles at a 57 man tourney. Besides MK, Peach has no worse matchups than 40:60. She has an advantage on Wario (a common teams char) and Diddy (THE BEST TEAMS CHAR EVER LOLOLOLOL), and can mostly avoid Snake's kill moves if the player knows what they're doing (no one can avoid being killed by Snake forever). She is not helpless against MK, but it's best if her partner fights him when possible. Marth is 55:45 IMO, Falco is rarely seen in teams (and with minimal lasers is much easier to deal with), DDD is even, GW is 40:60 and Peach avoids his kill moves well (again, if the player knows what they're doing).

And you ignored my bit about her being a good stock tank. She certainly deserves over a 4. I see WOLF is an 8, he has mediocre recovery and is pretty easy to edgehog/gimp. Peach has excellent momentum cancelling and is generally pretty evasive, not to mention quite difficult to gimp and even harder to edgehog. My partner (who mains Olimar) typically uses 4 stocks while I use 2. You think I jack off and throw turnips the entire match? I don't, I have to be racking damage so my Olimar can kill. Olimar also gets gimped like a *****. I -have- to be a good stock tank and save one of my lives for him, or we aren't going to win. If you play smart with Peach, her evasiveness, mad priority, and momentum cancelling allow her to stay alive for quite a long time.

I thought my first estimates were very accurate for Peach, so I'll give them to you again. I do not think she is the best option in teams, nor that she is good at all aspects of doubles. But what she does, she does very well.

Carry - 3
Stock Tank - 7.5/8
Punisher - 4
DPS - 10

I finally got done updating OP/charts with "Support/Assist" which kind of covers bananas being a hindrance. Theoretically, ignoring how awful bananas are to one's teammate, Diddy's doubles god-tier, but that's honestly not the case.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you can avoid kill moves but your opponents can't SDI? You should stop rating peach on such low level games.


A 2 dair combo should never happen, the first one lasts enough for people to react and SDI out why would they sit there like ******* and let you do it again?

 

[Nicole]

you can avoid kill moves but your opponents can't SDI? You should stop rating peach on such low level games.


A 2 dair combo should never happen, the first one lasts enough for people to react and SDI out why would they sit there like ******* and let you do it again?

I dunno, cause they're DDD and they're fat.

LTR, I didn't say it worked on everyone.

 

[Cook]

you can avoid kill moves but your opponents can't SDI? You should stop rating peach on such low level games.


A 2 dair combo should never happen, the first one lasts enough for people to react and SDI out why would they sit there like ******* and let you do it again?

Wow, you're a ******. Go play a Peach or something and learn about this game. Peach is PRETTY hard to land kill moves on in doubles because she has no lag, he moves come out super fast, and they have some of the best priority in the game. And yeah, most people are not very good at SDI. There are SO many moves in this game that you can SDI out of, but that doesn't mean that people actually DO it consistently. Maybe you are the GOD of SDI or something (I've heard SO much about you, so you're probably REALLY good), but we mortals don't always do it that well.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon racks damage fairly quickly. In doubles running away from him is impossible, making him able to hit. Also, he in 2vs1 he has things like Gerudo to laser lock, or the partner grabs so he can Warlock Punch them. He just requires a great co-operation for winning (to prevent him from getting gimped, allow him to hit so you can't leave Ganon with just looking how they can defend from him, etc.). IMO, he racks damage quicker than Falcon. And about Snake's ftilt, you can't expect it and SDI it, as he could utilt, jab or grab.

 

[Meru.]

Peach's dair is DIable, and being her bread and butter damage racker, it definitely damages her DPS score.

She's BY NO MEANS useless, but she's definitely not the best damage racking character in the game.

As a carry, she has two glaring weaknesses- lack of range, and quite a few poor match-ups (especially in the higher tiers).

However, DI can be followed and SDI can be punished. Besides, even though Dair is her main damage racker, she has enough tricks to combo and rack up damage. Also, Peach has an amazing and quick pressure game with high damage but low knoackback attacks that compliment this. She is definitely in the top 3 imo.

Lack of range? I wouldn't exacly say she's long range, but with a Fair that outranges Marth's fair, a long ranged and quick Bair and Jab, and a few other such as Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt and Uair, I wouldn't exactly call her short-ranged. About the match-ups, well, I'm not really going into that. We can discuss that reaaaally long, and I may be a bit too optimistic about that hehe. But her match-ups are not a problem. Oh, and imo Peach is also really good in 2 vs 1.

 

[smashkng]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXBmGWBRi2U

Another reason why Gerudo is too good in doubles.

 

[Flayl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvMSo6ldcb0&#t=00m57s

Characters that die at 113% from Pit's FSmash aren't above average stock tanks. Hope Dekar and other people finally get some sense from the pretty moving pictures.

Also since Bowser is a 2/9 stock tank with or without babysitting, wouldn't that make Dedede a 8/15 with or without babysitting (do you realize why this is kind of stupid?)?

 

[Overswarm]

Wow, you're a ******. Go play a Peach or something and learn about this game. Peach is PRETTY hard to land kill moves on in doubles because she has no lag, he moves come out super fast, and they have some of the best priority in the game. And yeah, most people are not very good at SDI. There are SO many moves in this game that you can SDI out of, but that doesn't mean that people actually DO it consistently. Maybe you are the GOD of SDI or something (I've heard SO much about you, so you're probably REALLY good), but we mortals don't always do it that well.

This isn't true. Peach is pretty easy to take out of the fight. While she can avoid KOs easily, she can't do so while helping her opponent. She can just... look threatening.

And yeah, you should SDI through Peach's dair and hit her out of it. It's pretty easy. Peach's dair is not the combo move we once thought it was.

 

[Dekar173]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvMSo6ldcb0&#t=00m57s

Characters that die at 113% from Pit's FSmash aren't above average stock tanks. Hope Dekar and other people finally get some sense from the pretty moving pictures.

Also since Bowser is a 2/9 stock tank with or without babysitting, wouldn't that make Dedede a 8/15 with or without babysitting (do you realize why this is kind of stupid?)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtCxw1EGqFQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cw2aPwen2E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROpI0mnz05I




Here are some Doubles matches of someone doing a pretty **** good job of Stock Tanking as a lightweight character.

Also, you're clearly not understanding the numbering system so I'll just leave it at that.

Not to be mean or anything, but being from Portugal... have you ever even played a Doubles match before? I don't mean with your family/neighborhood either I mean actual Doubles matches against other competitive players.



Also, I'm done arguing with the Peach mains who think that dair is inescapable. It's not, I RELIABLY DI out (that's if I'm ever caught in it in the first place) and then punish. As I've said, she's good, just not ZOMG THE BEST.

 

[Overswarm]

Also, I'm done arguing with the Peach mains who think that dair is inescapable. It's not, I RELIABLY DI out (that's if I'm ever caught in it in the first place) and then punish. As I've said, she's good, just not ZOMG THE BEST.

The man has spoken the truth.

Peach is good for nothing but KOing in teams with awesome u-smashes and a few damage bursts. Total reversal from singles.

 

[UTDZac]

Dekar, in your opinion, could you list the top 5 DPS characters for doubles?

G&W's Nair = 18%
G&W's Fair = 17%
G&W's Bair = 15%
G&W's Dair = 14% - 20%
G&W's Upsmash = 19%
G&W's Dsmash = 16%
G&W's Fsmash = 18%

And for laughs:
G&W's Judgment = 34%
G&W's Bucket = 63%