Doubles and You, a Comprehensive Guide to 2v2s

[DanGR]

A character's ability to tank relies solely on the tools they have to both avoid contact/kill moves and to avoid the outer most boundaries of the stages. That takes into account weight, recovery, mobility, speed, quickness, number of good gtfo moves, momentum canceling tools, etc. all in a way that helps keep you alive in a double match.

That said, a light character like MK is perfectly capable of being a stock tank BECAUSE he has just about everything you'd want in a stock tank... minus high weight.

 

[Overswarm]

Dekar, in your opinion, could you list the top 5 DPS characters for doubles?

G&W's Nair = 18%
G&W's Fair = 17%
G&W's Bair = 15%
G&W's Dair = 14% - 20%
G&W's Upsmash = 19%
G&W's Dsmash = 16%
G&W's Fsmash = 18%

And for laughs:
G&W's Judgment = 34%
G&W's Bucket = 63%

Olimar
MK
Diddy
Snake
Not G&W

 

[Flayl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtCxw1EGqFQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cw2aPwen2E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROpI0mnz05I




Here are some Doubles matches of someone doing a pretty **** good job of Stock Tanking as a lightweight character.

Also, you're clearly not understanding the numbering system so I'll just leave it at that.

Not to be mean or anything, but being from Portugal... have you ever even played a Doubles match before? I don't mean with your family/neighborhood either I mean actual Doubles matches against other competitive players.

Good job linking videos of MK whose survivability way outranks ZSS.

Yes I do play doubles competitively.

See I can do this too. Who in NM plays Bowser?

Oh ****, I got you there.

 

[Sinz]

Well, I am originally from NM. But, I live in Utah now. We have a Bowser player here. I don't see how that is relevant what so ever. BUt, Bowser ****ing sucks in teams. He gets gimped easy, he is a big target, and just sucks in general for teams.

Are you a good player?

Oh ****, I got you there.

 

[Flayl]

When did I say he was good in teams?

Can you read?

Oh ****, I got you there.

edit: Anyway, before more idiotic posts come and try to derail this even further: The OP doesn't know all the characters and he should stop acting like he does.

 

[Cook]

Peach is good for nothing but KOing in teams with awesome u-smashes and a few damage bursts. Total reversal from singles.

Hahahaha, no.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Olimar
MK
Diddy
Snake
Not G&W

Thanks for answering him so quickly, Dekar.

Now if only Overswarm could give us his input we'd be golden.

 

[Ripple]

Olimar
MK
Diddy
Snake
Not G&W

olimar
MK
diddy
snake
peach



also, how in the world does pit have a lower carry than DK???? pits should be at least a 5

 

[GreenFox]

Why are you using mmo terms :?

 

[Ripple]

also I believe dekar is using their singles capabilities instead of doubles capabilities.

for example, falco has a 9 for DPS. while that might be true for singles, no falco is going to be laser happy in doubles. and he is also not going to chain grab for risk of being hit.

falco should be a 5-6

 

[Meru.]

Also, I'm done arguing with the Peach mains who think that dair is inescapable. It's not, I RELIABLY DI out (that's if I'm ever caught in it in the first place) and then punish. As I've said, she's good, just not ZOMG THE BEST.

Whatever you want.

The man has spoken the truth.

Peach is good for nothing but KOing in teams with awesome u-smashes and a few damage bursts. Total reversal from singles.

Ehh wut?

 

[Overswarm]

Whatever peach can do, another character can do better. The only exception is Peach's ability to have a few low % damage bursts and her ability to float in and out of trouble until she can land high power moves... of which she only has one of note, her u-smash. Everything else is fairly mediocre in comparison.

Seriously, start u-smashing people out of your teammate's grabs. WTF would you not? You kill people at 100% instead of 250%.

 

[Dekar173]

Dekar, in your opinion, could you list the top 5 DPS characters for doubles?

G&W's Nair = 18%
G&W's Fair = 17%
G&W's Bair = 15%
G&W's Dair = 14% - 20%
G&W's Upsmash = 19%
G&W's Dsmash = 16%
G&W's Fsmash = 18%

And for laughs:
G&W's Judgment = 34%
G&W's Bucket = 63%

Diddy
ZSS
MK
Olimar
Peach

Aside from Diddy, I wouldn't rate any of those above one or the other, they're all in their own S-tier for racking up damage, one huge reason as to why they can focus on DPS is their lack of kill moves (minus Oli/Peach) therefore they shouldn't really be caring about Punishing over DPS in the long run. GW is 100% a Punish character. No one equals him in his killing capabilities, so I don't believe he should be focusing on DPS.

A character's ability to tank relies solely on the tools they have to both avoid contact/kill moves and to avoid the outer most boundaries of the stages. That takes into account weight, recovery, mobility, speed, quickness, number of good gtfo moves, momentum canceling tools, etc. all in a way that helps keep you alive in a double match.

That said, a light character like MK is perfectly capable of being a stock tank BECAUSE he has just about everything you'd want in a stock tank... minus high weight.

Truth truth truth, except it also includes whether your character is really DOING anything as well. You aren't Stock Tanking properly if your teammate is dying within the first 30 seconds of the match.

Olimar
MK
Diddy
Snake
Not G&W

I don't agree with Snake because he has G&W's problem, he should be focusing on other things than DPS imo.

Good job linking videos of MK whose survivability way outranks ZSS.

Yes I do play doubles competitively.

See I can do this too. Who in NM plays Bowser?

Oh ****, I got you there.

You didn't watch Santi in those vids? A lot of the time when Dojo got down to 1 stock (because he was Carrying/focusing on aggression) Santi still had a mid % 2 stocks.

Also, not to flail my e-peen around or anything, I could probably beat you with a vast majority of the cast, and I don't mean last hit last stock either, I mean handily beat you.

olimar
MK
diddy
snake
peach



also, how in the world does pit have a lower carry than DK???? pits should be at least a 5

I can see 2-4 range for Pit, it's just that from what I've seen, that's not really his strength whatsoever.

DK, at least, when his opponents have a bit of damage on them they have to be careful, he also has an advantage in grab releases and isn't as detrimentally effected by 2v1 standing infinites.

Why are you using mmo terms :?

They are terms that can better clarify on certain aspects that need to be taken into account in Doubles play. Need I say more?

also I believe dekar is using their singles capabilities instead of doubles capabilities.

for example, falco has a 9 for DPS. while that might be true for singles, no falco is going to be laser happy in doubles. and he is also not going to chain grab for risk of being hit.

falco should be a 5-6

Falco's moveset without lasers is still top-tier, his main issue is Interfering with his teammate if he doesn't drastically switch up his playstyle. BUT I'll give you that a 9 was definitely a bit too liberal a rating. 7-9 would probably be a better fitting range.

Whatever peach can do, another character can do better. The only exception is Peach's ability to have a few low % damage bursts and her ability to float in and out of trouble until she can land high power moves... of which she only has one of note, her u-smash. Everything else is fairly mediocre in comparison.

Seriously, start u-smashing people out of your teammate's grabs. WTF would you not? You kill people at 100% instead of 250%.

I never took this into account when I was thinking about Peach as I highly consider her to be more DPS-oriented, but she's obviously one of the characters that can have several effective styles.

 

[Adapt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvMSo6ldcb0&#t=00m57s

Characters that die at 113% from Pit's FSmash aren't above average stock tanks. Hope Dekar and other people finally get some sense from the pretty moving pictures.

Also since Bowser is a 2/9 stock tank with or without babysitting, wouldn't that make Dedede a 8/15 with or without babysitting (do you realize why this is kind of stupid?)?

Nick didn't use Uair to momentum cancel there... it could have been survived. And you are still basing your comments solely on weight. Dekar has stated a few times that the rating takes more than just weight into account.

Also:

I've killed DDD at 130 with ZSS's bair, which is weaker than a pit f-smash... that doesn't make DDD a bad stock tank. A single instance proves nothing.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't agree with Snake because he has G&W's problem, he should be focusing on other things than DPS imo.

I agree halfway. It was really hard for me to put him there, but playing infern and getting naired to u-tilt to C4'd and other crazy stuff like that makes me wonder if there is a trap-style play that could potentially happen for doubles in the future.

Snake does have the trouble of going "yay! A forward tilt!" and then having a dry spell forever, but I see his damage potential as pretty large in doubles if he uses aerials and explosives properly.

 

[Dragoomba]

I love this guide, it shows that Brawl can be more balanced (somewhat) in teams.

Also, does DK really deserve that low of a carry with his grab release frame advantages?

 

[Hylian]

I agree halfway. It was really hard for me to put him there, but playing infern and getting naired to u-tilt to C4'd and other crazy stuff like that makes me wonder if there is a trap-style play that could potentially happen for doubles in the future.

Snake does have the trouble of going "yay! A forward tilt!" and then having a dry spell forever, but I see his damage potential as pretty large in doubles if he uses aerials and explosives properly.

Watch Razer/Gnes play teams. Razer averages 200% a stock and has insane damage output with how good he is at using all of snakes projectiles.

 

[Overswarm]

Watch Razer/Gnes play teams. Razer averages 200% a stock and has insane damage output with how good he is at using all of snakes projectiles.

With a Diddy teammate? Do they have any strategy, or do they just go in there and destroy?

 

[Chuee]

I love this guide, it shows that Brawl can be more balanced (somewhat) in teams.

Also, does DK really deserve that low of a carry with his grab release frame advantages?

DK only has a frame advantage when he is released not when he releases an opponent.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

great thread lots of good info.

 

[Veggi]

IMO

Change Mario's Punishing to 4, he's able to get a decent amount of punishment options, but when he punishes something it isn't very significant. Stock tanking to 6-8, the only thing that needs babysitting is Mario's recovery, which isn't that major or able to be helped enough to span 3 points based on if you do it or not. Other than that it looks good. Wait...Mario's defensive support is good. Hose em' down, blast those enemies away!

Peach

Carry- 4 (Peach can only work quickly against one person, if another person is involved, a lot of her safe moves become easily punishable by the person not being pressured.)
Stock Tank- 8 (Keep away much with turnips and all of her aerials, giant pivot grab, then Toad spores, and going offstage? Plus she has a good recovery, very good momentum canceling and floating after a uair rockets her really high into the sky where she can't be edgeguarded. Even if she is in the position to be edgeguarded, she can manipulate her recovery very easily and has good anti edgeguard options like Toad and fair. Plus if she actually does get gimped, she can stall for a bloody year until her partner saves her. The only thing poor about her ability to hold stocks is that she is moderately light weight. She's not even that light.)
Punisher-5 Similar to Mario, she can punish a lot, but can't punish hard other than with up smash, which is at least good out of a partner's grabs.
DPS- 9 (I like it, either 9 or 8. She does damage easily and safely as long as she stays where she wants.)
Good Offensive Support

Ideally, I think Peach's best position is racking up damage when the opponent is at a low percent and then staying at the edge throwing junk and using normal Peach defensive maneuevers when they go after you. Defensive maneuvers are basically what Peach does when they can't be chained anymore. Always keeping a turnip in hand for when someone approaches.

DK's is good, but possibly switch his punishing to 10. He can punish things with an 80% kill even when they hit him during the move, wtf. Also side b people with low shields for lulz although shield breaks can be hindered by the person's partner. : (

This is all just what I think though.

 

[UltimateRazer]

Gnes and I have only gotten 2nd to M2K and Ally once...by gay planking on brinstar -.-.

Snake is harder to use in teams...a lot. He can get juggled so much but if played right with the right teammate, well he can be good.

And at OS: We do both.

 

[Poltergust]

Brief synopsis of Yoshi:

Carry:
Yoshi can certainly hold his own in 2 vs. 1 situations if he can position himself and his opponents correctly. His b-air is a tremendous asset here. However, if he gets caught between them it will be tough to get out due to his lack of defensive options. 1 vs. 1 situations simply depend on the match-up, but if Yoshi gets some momentum going then he should win. Recovering with him should not be a problem, though. I would give him a 4 or 5, like you said.

Stock Tank:
OK, Yoshi is definitely one of the best stock tankers in the game. He's heavy, can easily play a defensive game throughout the match, has good recovery, and fantastic momentum-canceling. Seriously, he can consistently live to extremely high percentages if he's careful. It's absurd. Definitely a 9 or 10.

Punisher:
Here's where I start disagreeing with you. Although Yoshi does have a few moves that can kill early (f-smash, u-air, and f-air), it's too difficult to create any reliable set-ups for them in doubles (although any set-up you do make looks very cool ). And even if he does pull off these moves they won't kill an opponent THAT early. 110% most likely, but rarely anything below that if the opponent knows what they are doing. Like I said earlier, Yoshi is better off playing defensively than offensively. I would give a 5 here.

DPS:
Hm, I'm not too sure about giving him a 7 here. He can rack up a lot of damage if he plays offensively, but it is usually risky to do so. A lot of the damage he does create would be with working in tandem with his teammate, usually through grab-releases and such (his set-ups for those are incredible, by the way). A 6 here would be appropriate.

Based on what I said above, I would also switch around his ability for offensive support and defensive support, so he has decent offensive support and great defensive support.

 

[tw1n]

Awesome read Dekar. I cracked up at captain falcon being called "Justice Man" hahaha.

 

[Gnes]

With a Diddy teammate? Do they have any strategy, or do they just go in there and destroy?

go destroy baby ^_^, but yeah we have usually have a strategy for every team we play against, but most of what we do is all improvising. I dont have to worry about naners messing up razer because he can use them just as well as I can. The problem with snake/diddy is that they have no answer to teams that utilize planking.

good topic dekar

 

[Overswarm]

go destroy baby ^_^, but yeah we have usually have a strategy for every team we play against, but most of what we do is all improvising. I dont have to worry about naners messing up razer because he can use them just as well as I can. The problem with snake/diddy is that they have no answer to teams that utilize planking.

good topic dekar

Do a z-drop with a banana or a grenade and grab the ledge afterward, and after grabbing the edge you can get off and your teammate can grab it. I don't castrate myself in singles or doubles, so I plank whenever it benefits me; no matter who I'm teammed up against, simply grabbing the ledge and having a teammate jump off stage like they're going to attack me and simply grabbing the ledge themselves has always been a good way to get me off the stage. I'm MK and I'm out of jumps at that point, and am put in a pretty bad position.

The z-drop isn't so much to hit the enemy, but to make MK grab it with a u-air. Once he stops doing u-airs and holds a banana, he has to get rid of it before doing anything. He can easily z-drop it, but for some reason people feel the need to throw it at whoever is on the ledge.

 

[Eddie G]

Meh...Peach isn't exactly the best character in doubles, but some of you are still underrating her capabilities a bit much. No Peach with a brain will look to be a combo machine in doubles. She is there to stock tank, get some chip damage, punish with u-smash off of grabs (Peach's u-smash off of MK's u-throw is amazing), get an occasional character dependent gimp, and stock tank further.

Sure there are some aspects of her game that other characters can perform better such as MK being better at gimping, Snake/DDD generally being more efficient stock tanks and campers (and I stress generally...meaning it may not hold true 100% of the time), and so on.

However...do not forget how valuable it is for a character to possess all of these traits in the first place. That presents versatility which helps to deal with different situations, and Peach brings that to the table. Again, not the best, but highly underrated by the looks of it.

On that note, have the lot of you even teamed with a Peach before? Most of what I've read over the last few pages are mere claims, and not words coming from experience.

Compare it to this: I've never been in bed with a black or asian woman before. Can I say being in bed with a black or asian woman sucks? Sure I could say it, but I've never actually tried it before, so it wouldn't make sense for me to say it. lol

 

[Dekar173]

Adding more stuff in order to include "gimmick" play (energy projectiles, reflectors, etc.)

:D

@Peach discussion- I don't believe I'm underrating her, but we'll see when I MM the Peaches going to Pound. From my experience, she's not that great of a character, and focuses more upon racking up percent than killing, as she's not mobile enough to always usmash, and sometimes she's got a turnip in her hands negating the possibility of a usmash entirely.

 

[UTDZac]

Just wanted to point out a few things I don't agree with.

Metaknight
Ranked: 10 - 8 - 7 - 9
Diddy Kong
Ranked: 10 - 8 - 7 - 10

Diddy Kong should be ranked lower than MK teams (by a good margin, imo). These numbers don't reflect this.

---

Diddy Kong
Ranked: 10 - 8 - 7 - 10
Mr. Game & Watch
Ranked: 7 - 7 - 10 - 8

G&W should be ranked higher than Diddy Kong in teams. These numbers don't reflect this.

Side Note: Bwett agrees with me that G&W should/does out damage Diddy Kong in teams.

---

If you still think the numbers are correct, then my suggestion to you is the find the missing categories that would bump MK and G&W above Diddy Kong. It seems these four categories are not enough to sufficiently rank a character's potential in teams.

 

[hichez50]

We finally get a good doubles guide. Without indivudual matchup. GREAT JOB. I respect this with a high level.

 

[Dekar173]

Just wanted to point out a few things I don't agree with.

Metaknight
Ranked: 10 - 8 - 7 - 9
Diddy Kong
Ranked: 10 - 8 - 7 - 10

Diddy Kong should be ranked lower than MK teams (by a good margin, imo). These numbers don't reflect this.

---

Diddy Kong
Ranked: 10 - 8 - 7 - 10
Mr. Game & Watch
Ranked: 7 - 7 - 10 - 8

G&W should be ranked higher than Diddy Kong in teams. These numbers don't reflect this.

Side Note: Bwett agrees with me that G&W should/does out damage Diddy Kong in teams.

---

If you still think the numbers are correct, then my suggestion to you is the find the missing categories that would bump MK and G&W above Diddy Kong. It seems these four categories are not enough to sufficiently rank a character's potential in teams.

The numbers, aside for maybe Diddy's killing power (he can't really gimp to make up for it) are right, BUT, I added something I call "Interference" that is sort of a learning curve for teaming as/with certain characters.

Diddy, being a mega stage-control character has huge interference issues, as his naners harm both his opponents and his teammate.

This should clear up why exactly Diddy has much lower tourney placings than MK and GW, among others.



Also, I'd like to avoid creating a Doubles tier-list, and let THAT come to fruition when people actually know HOW to play teams. I'll eventually be making a category ranking list, but I won't be deciding "character A is more useful in Doubles than all others" just yet.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W is clearly much better than Diddy in teams. Aside from this, I'm not entirely convinced Diddy is so exceptional in the damaging department in doubles that he outranks completely, opposed to sharing the same rank, several characters including G&W. I mean, Diddy is by far better than G&W at damaging in Singles, but it doesn't translate really the same in doubles.

Also, good call on not making a tier list for doubles, Dekar. That's not something worth anybody's time to make, and it really doesn't help much. What you have now is a solid base for what should be done at the time, though unfinished as it is.

 

[Eddie G]

@Peach discussion- I don't believe I'm underrating her, but we'll see when I MM the Peaches going to Pound. From my experience, she's not that great of a character, and focuses more upon racking up percent than killing, as she's not mobile enough to always usmash, and sometimes she's got a turnip in her hands negating the possibility of a usmash entirely.

Understood, but we're talking about her capabilities in doubles play here, which people are highly underrating. Her singles play is an entirely different subject, but you're not too far off the mark with saying she has killing issues during singles. As for her killing, having good stage presence, stock tanking, and overall usefulness in doubles, take a look at these for a good reminder...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUI-rtU13sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEyae9jLsTY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEU-7gNfgY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwJQYsgXFvk&feature=related

As per usual, it mostly comes down to the players' skill, how well they work together as a team, etc. A Peach and DDD team 2-0'd a top doubles team and in the second match of the set they defeated a DOUBLE MK TEAM consisting of two of the top singles/doubles players in the nation for crying out loud.

My suggestion to the masses: Ditch the cookie-cutter mentality when it comes to certain characters. They have options, they are useful, and they can get the job done with a knowledgeable player behind the wheel. Peach happens to be one of those characters. I can't even count the number of times I've surprised a skilled opponent mid-match by showing them some of what Peach is capable of, or just changed their mind about the character in general.

It's about much more than the floating dair with her, people...let's move on from the outdated 2008 mindset and broaden our perspectives some more. Only then can you understand a character's potential beyond what most of your outdated character specific boards' matchup discussions describe. Kthanks.

 

[Dekar173]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUI-rtU13sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEyae9jLsTY&feature=related

Peach was charging her usmash. She won't always be able to charge a usmash in order to punish, unless if set up to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEU-7gNfgY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwJQYsgXFvk&feature=related

Atomsk SDed first thing in one of those matches, dominating their momentum (another huge aspect of Brawl in general) which further set-up Excel and Ling Ling's chances at dominating.

Honestly what I got out of that was the fact that D3's offensive set-ups are spectacular, and that given a good set-up, Peach is a monster for killing. Excel didn't really go for usmashes when it wasn't set-up for him, and when he did, it was either punished or he whiffed the sweetspot.


As per usual, it mostly comes down to the players' skill, how well they work together as a team, etc. A Peach and DDD team 2-0'd a top doubles team and in the second match of the set they defeated a DOUBLE MK TEAM consisting of two of the top singles/doubles players in the nation for crying out loud.

I bolded the part that this is a reply to- this is a guide for Doubles play, not necessarily something to outline "omfg you do this and they do this and that's all that works" but rather a guideline as to where certain people perform well, and judging by who you main/what your playstyle is, what your role in your team should be. Excel is obviously a great punisher, and being so, he pairs perfectly with a main who can set him up for the kill.

These vids are EXCELLENT for describing how Doubles should be played between an Offensive Supporter/Punisher team, and I'll probably be using them as well as any others I can find/be linked to.

My suggestion to the masses: Ditch the cookie-cutter mentality when it comes to certain characters. They have options, they are useful, and they can get the job done with a knowledgeable player behind the wheel. Peach happens to be one of those characters. I can't even count the number of times I've surprised a skilled opponent mid-match by showing them some of what Peach is capable of, or just changed their mind about the character in general.

It's about much more than the floating dair with her, people...let's move on from the outdated 2008 mindset and broaden our perspectives some more. Only then can you understand a character's potential beyond what most of your outdated character specific boards' matchup discussions describe. Kthanks.

Answers in red.

In general, this isn't a guide saying "you can only play one character one way all others are useless" but instead is a guide as to what certain character's strengths/weaknesses are.

When you know your strengths and weaknesses as well as your teammate's, you can become much stronger as a team by just working together to figure out who does what.

 

[Poltergust]

Uh... what about my summary?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Eh, pretty good job with Ike, however...

Carry- 3
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 9
DPS- 6

I'd bump up Carry by like, .5 (maybe), Punisher by 1, and DPS by 1.

The only reason I'd suggest bumping Carry up one is based on the few vids I've seen of Ike in a 2v1 a long time ago. His fair is fairly (lol pun) good at keep both opponents back if the 2v1 is with both of the 2s at last stock, high %s. The thing has huge range, hits like a smash attack, and a lot of characters have trouble getting pass it. It's not really an important issue, just something I though I'd mention for consideration. I'm not exactly going to be screaming in rage if it's not changed to a 4: I simply don't fully have your rational for the scale yet, and I'm estimating where Ike would be compared to the other characters around there, lol.

Punishing: Do I really have to explain how scary Ike's Hyphen Smash is in Doubles? One of the, if not the biggest hitbox in the game, KOs at insanely low %s for an uncharged smashattack, and infinite priority? Fsmash is also self-explanatory, along with Uair, Bair...basically all of his moves. lol All of his moves except three throws can KO at reasonable %s.

DPS: Bthrow is great for setting things up. It gives Ike enough of a frame advantage that he can combo heavies out of it with Bair at 0%, Dash Attack at a range of %s, but more importantly he can use it to quickly throw people into his teammate's attacks while propelling himself out of the way of a different attack, and being able to protect himself very quickly afterwards. There is also of course his jab game and just how much % damage his attacks do. Like aether, which is more usable in doubles.


This is simply me being nitpicky, you've done a good job.

 

[Dekar173]

Uh... what about my summary?

Yoshi's kill moves aren't extremely powerful, but they're definitely powerful enough to be scary (especially uair) and they are FAST (primarily nair/uair) to the point where they are definitely a force to be reckoned with.

The rest of your post pretty much agreed with me, except for saying he's more Defensive Support than Offensive Support, his Grab Releases are set-ups for kill moves, how is that Defensive?! ;P

Eh, pretty good job with Ike, however...

Carry- 3
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 9
DPS- 6

I'd bump up Carry by like, .5 (maybe), Punisher by 1, and DPS by 1.

The only reason I'd suggest bumping Carry up one is based on the few vids I've seen of Ike in a 2v1 a long time ago. His fair is fairly (lol pun) good at keep both opponents back if the 2v1 is with both of the 2s at last stock, high %s. The thing has huge range, hits like a smash attack, and a lot of characters have trouble getting pass it. It's not really an important issue, just something I though I'd mention for consideration. I'm not exactly going to be screaming in rage if it's not changed to a 4: I simply don't fully have your rational for the scale yet, and I'm estimating where Ike would be compared to the other characters around there, lol.

There is a glaring issue with him being a Carry though- his predominantly poor match-ups. Then again, his punishing capabilities make up for his lack of ability to clutch quite nicely.

Punishing: Do I really have to explain how scary Ike's Hyphen Smash is in Doubles? One of the, if not the biggest hitbox in the game, KOs at insanely low %s for an uncharged smashattack, and infinite priority? Fsmash is also self-explanatory, along with Uair, Bair...basically all of his moves. lol All of his moves except three throws can KO at reasonable %s.

Ike is the type of character who won't be able to perform said kill moves when necessary due to his low mobility, mediocre recovery, and tendency to be juggled. He's SO powerful though that when he DOES get a chance, it's stupidly effective.

DPS: Bthrow is great for setting things up. It gives Ike enough of a frame advantage that he can combo heavies out of it with Bair at 0%, Dash Attack at a range of %s, but more importantly he can use it to quickly throw people into his teammate's attacks while propelling himself out of the way of a different attack, and being able to protect himself very quickly afterwards. There is also of course his jab game and just how much % damage his attacks do. Like aether, which is more usable in doubles.

Ya I forgot about his bthrow being a good set-up move, it's also fast enough to where it's not going to be interrupted too often, then again this goes with his ability to be a decent Offensive Support character rather than his ability to DPS (DPS takes second priority for him).

This is simply me being nitpicky, you've done a good job.

Thanks! :D It'll be a lot of work before it's anywhere near polished and well done, but I think it's off to a nice start =P

 

[Veggi]

IMO

Change Mario's Punishing to 4, he's able to get a decent amount of punishment options, but when he punishes something it isn't very significant. Stock tanking to 6-8, the only thing that needs babysitting is Mario's recovery, which isn't that major or able to be helped enough to span 3 points based on if you do it or not. Other than that it looks good. Wait...Mario's defensive support is good. Hose em' down, blast those enemies away!

Peach

Carry- 4

Peach can only work quickly against one person, if another person is involved, a lot of her safe moves become easily punishable by the person not being pressured.

Stock Tank- 8

Keep away much with turnips and all of her aerials, giant pivot grab, then Toad spores, and going offstage? Plus she has a good recovery, very good momentum canceling and floating after a uair rockets her really high into the sky where she can't be edgeguarded. Even if she is in the position to be edgeguarded, she can manipulate her recovery very easily and has good anti edgeguard options like Toad and fair. Plus if she actually does get gimped, she can stall for a bloody year until her partner saves her. The only thing poor about her ability to hold stocks is that she is moderately light weight. She's not even that light.

Punisher-5

Similar to Mario, she can punish a lot, but can't punish hard other than with up smash, which is at least good out of a partner's grabs.

DPS- 9

I like it, either 9 or 8. She does damage easily and safely as long as she stays where she wants.
Good Offensive Support

Ideally, I think Peach's best position is racking up damage when the opponent is at a low percent and then staying at the edge throwing junk and using normal Peach defensive maneuevers when they go after you. Defensive maneuvers are basically what Peach does when they can't be chained anymore. Always keeping a turnip in hand for when someone approaches.

DK's is good, but possibly switch his punishing to 10. He can punish things with an 80% kill even when they hit him during the move, wtf. Also side b people with low shields for lulz although shield breaks can be hindered by the person's partner. : (

This is all just what I think though.

Respond if you're feeling particularly saucy today.

 

[Dekar173]

IMO

Change Mario's Punishing to 4, he's able to get a decent amount of punishment options, but when he punishes something it isn't very significant. Stock tanking to 6-8, the only thing that needs babysitting is Mario's recovery, which isn't that major or able to be helped enough to span 3 points based on if you do it or not. Other than that it looks good. Wait...Mario's defensive support is good. Hose em' down, blast those enemies away!

A good teammate can save Mario really well, but ya a 9 isn't where it should be, probably 8. He's a highly defensive character, but his weight/overall recovery don't allow for him to go much past an 8, despite the support he may be receiving.

Offensive set-ups exist through water and cape (increased knockback is soooo ********). Make him out to be a better offensive supporter than a defensive one, especially with cape-**** combos where you can reflect nasty projectiles into doing even more damage.

DK's is good, but possibly switch his punishing to 10. He can punish things with an 80% kill even when they hit him during the move, wtf. Also side b people with low shields for lulz although shield breaks can be hindered by the person's partner. : (

He's not a 10 simply for the fact that he's too large to be openly available to punish at all times, more often than not, he's being juggled to oblivion. Also, it may just be Diddy, but he can shield the entire grounded upB without a problem (creates a forced set up in Dobles though).

This is all just what I think though.

Replies in red. I primarily agree with Peach except her Stock Tanking capabilities, when I play against/watch Excel next weekend I'll have better data to base it on though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's mobility isn't that bad. On par with Toon Link's in the air + huge range. The few times I've played in doubles I didn't have a problem reaching the opponent in time to punish with at least a Dash Attack. Not hitting my teammate on the otherhand... >_> <_< Let's not bring up what happens in an Ike + Ike team, lol. Except for on Pirate Ship. That was beautiful.