EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[DarrellD]

Violence is crazy good at spacing. Holy ****! So much fun playing you man your so legit. Can't wait to see you in a few weeks :D

 

[Geist]

Aw **** you're gonna **** me next time we meet aren't you violence lmao

 

[mers]

I just had a random thought. Can Samus shield drop into that badass uair platform cancel thing? Cuz that would be so awesome.

 

[Geist]

That would be an awesome way to spend half a second doing absolutely nothing xD

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well it would be faster than shield dropping...

 

[mers]

Absolutely nothing? You would instantly be standing with your shield down. If it's possible, it allows you to do literally anything out of shield. Jab, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash. The possibilities are basically limitless.

I'm asking if you can do it without jumping, by the way. Just shield-drop to uair. Obviously you can do it if you go a little lower and jump, but that takes the speed out of it (though it would still look sexy as ****).

 

[Geist]

Right, I misunderstood what you were talking about.
Still, it also depends on how long it takes for samus to drop from through the platform to the point where she can platform cancel. This requires testing. TO THE CUBE

edits: Well I can't get it to work. I think you have to jump back up after the drop.

 

[Pi]

you could probably do it w/ a jump but i doubt w/o one

 

[mers]

Damn. I wonder how quickly it can be done with a fastfall and a jump... I'll try later, but I can barely shield drop so it might not go so well.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think its possible. I couldn't find a method to shield drop in dolphin so I just tried doing a regular platform drop uair. You have to hold down for 2 frames and you aren't in the air until the 5th frame (pressing up on the 4th or earlier frame will cause you to jump). If you do the uair on the first possible frame, you don't land on the platform. Tested on battlefield's right platform.

 

[mers]

Gotcha. I don't suppose shield drops are different from normal platform drops in any way? Doesn't really seem likely.

 

[Pluplue]

I BELIEVE ITS IMPOSSIBLE. I've tried to fall through and Uair cancel before and it doesn't work.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Gotcha. I don't suppose shield drops are different from normal platform drops in any way? Doesn't really seem likely.

i assume they are the same, but i haven't exactly tested it. My theory is that the coding for both is combined and dropping through platforms is simply an allowed action in shield.

 

[DarrellD]

What's the easiest way to shield drop? Is it just angling your shield in a corner slowly or am I not being productive?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think there are at least 2 ways. One way you can do it is by pressing straight down, but its based on speed. Pressing it too fast will cause you to spotdodge and too slow will just angle your shield. Another way is to press it into the corner like u said, but i only do that when im doing a shield drop out of a dash.

 

[Violence]

I've noticed a pattern.

Ranked players whose Falcons I've played:

Noobking
Darrell
HomeMadeWaffles
Mackadotious
Smoke2Joints
SilentSpectre
Scar
Bob$
Lucien

Ranked players whose Falcons I have never been able to get better than 3 stocked by:
Smoke2Joints
SilentSpectre
Scar
(AKA FALCON MAINS)

I've spent a hell of a long time trying to understand this matchup, but no matter what I do, they just slam attacks into me as if I'm not shielding. I've upped my shield game a bit, practiced my DI, tried to fair while DIing away, Up B'd to avoid knees, and looked for openings like crazy, but the hits just keep coming.

I'm kinda at a loss. Anyone who's played high level Falcons and done well(Darrell, Hugo, Spaceballs, ThePrime), what the hell am I missing? I just keep getting hit, and I don't know how to stop getting hit.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Absolutely nothing? You would instantly be standing with your shield down. If it's possible, it allows you to do literally anything out of shield. Jab, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash. The possibilities are basically limitless.

I'm asking if you can do it without jumping, by the way. Just shield-drop to uair. Obviously you can do it if you go a little lower and jump, but that takes the speed out of it (though it would still look sexy as ****).

4 frames landing lag.
1 to shield
2 to drop(assuming its a normal action only just oos)
5 to be in the air

vs 12 to simply let go of R and drop your shield.

if you assume you are already shielding and it some how takes 1 frame to drop then 10. if you have to jump then thats at least 2 more frames. even if its possible(idk if it is), is it worth the effort...other than just being technical.

HOWEVER bombing oos with shield drops is mad tight lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kaostar those numbers are mad wrong

 

[Pi]

don't be scared of falcon...
only shield if you intend to UB out of it
dash attack pressure him, if he's DDing, wavedash and ftilt him
don't give him space, keep the pressure on

any other way of playing seems to give good falcons too much of an advantage

falcon with space > samus w/ space, they profit so much more from the 1 hit they get than us
also if they shield, grab them

maintain momentum and keep them off the stage till they're dead

ballz to the wall bro, don't fear the falcon!

 

[KAOSTAR]

Kaostar those numbers are mad wrong

lmao probably, not gonna lie.

I basically said if it takes 2 frames to drop based on your number. u aren't airborne until 5th frame based on your figure, plus the 4 frames u have when simply landing from the air, I thought that included auto cancels even if from below. and im sure inputting u air would take at least a frame to get to the point when it auto cancels.

so lol I guess I should have used my own data...kilt off.

in all seriousness tho, do you happen to know what the proper frameage would be?

 

[Rat]

@ Violience:
What are they hitting you with?
Nair? The Knee? Grab?

What position are you getting hit in?
Falcon nair/knee range? Falcon's overshot knee range? Above them? Coming from the ledge?

What defense are you using?
WDback utilt? Shield? Spacing? Spot dodging?

How are they dodging your attacks?
Dashdance? Jump/Dbl jump baits? Platform camp?

On falcon's grab combos:
It is a DI mix-up game. If you DI down and away they can't knee off of a throw, but they can Uair. If you DI up and in and they predict a running SH Uair you can get out. (Depends on their reaction speed.)

When you DI a throw down and away and then they hit you with Uair there's another guess. Either DI up and in (predicting grab followup, high risk) or Down and away (another Uair/Knee.)

Nair->Knee is like super easy guarenteed on Samus. Be hella careful of that move around 70-110%

Fair after a throw only stops the knee. Be wary of them predicting your aerial defense and getting another grab or dbl jump knee.

Watch the hell out of falcon when your recovering. His off stage range is huge.


How do you'all counter Bair approaches? His aerial mobility is huge and bair has crazy priority. I have trouble out spacing it or intercepting it. Shielding it seems bad.

 

[MeijinAkuma]

don't be scared of falcon...
only shield if you intend to UB out of it
dash attack pressure him, if he's DDing, wavedash and ftilt him
don't give him space, keep the pressure on

any other way of playing seems to give good falcons too much of an advantage

falcon with space > samus w/ space, they profit so much more from the 1 hit they get than us
also if they shield, grab them

maintain momentum and keep them off the stage till they're dead

ballz to the wall bro, don't fear the falcon!

This all just my opinion but,

I'm going to agree with the giving them space part... if a Falcon has room to DD, then he has room to do whatever he wants to you... Falcon's aerials are a little slow coming out, try and use that to your advantage.

Also this is probably pretty common sense but, DO NOT ever use one of your smash attacks if you even have the slightest hint he can shield it. You will get SH knee'd instantly, 100% of the time.

I also can't recommend dash attacking too terribly much, opponents can sit in their shield against Samus and she can't do too much to it (slow grab johns) so I feel like this will get you shield grabbed if you start to rely on it.

****SIDENOTE ON SAMUS VS SHIELD****
You know how players sometimes end up shielding next to each other and they try to wait it out and catch them coming out of their shield, or anything like that? Or one player is standing there and the other is shielding.. I used to believe I could wait it out and catch them with something, but I'm starting to realize that they know I don't have many good options against their shield. I can't try and grab them, it is too slow... My smash attacks aren't a good idea, and jab cancels only really seem to work against falcon (slow moves). I've gotten to the point where I just bomb their shield once, and either waveland behind them off the bomb jump, float up and away, or drop an aerial back on them if they drop their shield.

Back to Falcon,
I prefer to keep my spacing and intercept aerials before they get going. For example, If he's coming down on top of you trying to dair, you can upB and beat it since Falcon gathers himself up before he stomps down, or if he's starting to SH a nair or something like that, I like to intercept with my own nair. I'm also a fan of WD back utilts.

And with grabbing while they are shielding, good Falcon's will react to Samus throwing her arm back in the grab motion and you'll be hard pressed to grab.. It'll more than likely end up in you catching a knee to the face. I could just be really scrubby with my grab attempts, but it seems like they don't even have to try to react to it and then Samus becomes combo food.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

All this information is delicious.

@Rat
Also it now comes to mind that we had a ridiculous 4 Samus game at SMYM12. Needs more Samus

 

[MonkUnit]

Can someone find out the exact information on shield dropping? KAOSTAR was said to be wrong.

 

[Rat]

MOAR SAMUS!

Wait were you teaming with spaceballs? Playing link? That was so awesome.

 

[MonkUnit]

How well does double samus work out? I tried double samus at ECSS3 and it didn't play out too well. Once one of the Samus' were knocked off stage, the other Samus couldn't really do anything to go in and help out.

 

[Pi]

Can someone find out the exact information on shield dropping? KAOSTAR was said to be wrong.

there's like video's of it on youtube....
as far as doing it into aerial interupting idk, someone w/ AR would have to test that (not dolphin)

and as for dash attacking
it's the same as smash attacks
they're great when you know they will land, but if they shield it it sucks
so don't get shielded
when you're approaching falcon make your decision mid approach
what's he going to do when you get in proximity, and how can you counter it


vs. falcon
safe things on his shield:
jab cancels
bombs
delayed nairs into jabs
late aerial into UB
spaced Ftilt into up angled ftilt


things that may be safe on falcons who aren't use to them, but can be punished have no doubt:
dtilt
regular ftilts
spaced fsmashes

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

MOAR SAMUS!

Wait were you teaming with spaceballs? Playing link? That was so awesome.

Yeah, it was fun. I just wish we would have done more quad Samus... and also outside of tournament matches.

I did much better with Link because I know the Link v Samus matchup from playing spaceballs.


@MonkUnit
I'd really only play it on small stages but Rat and Duck did decently well... take that how you will.

 

[KAOSTAR]

ill just test it tonight. but it just seems like there are too many actions required to really save frames. unknown brought it up in fox boards about how sometimes just dropping your shield is legitimately fast enough to punish.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah dropping ur shield is an underused option in the metagame, IMO

 

[Pi]

Yeah dropping ur shield is an underused option in the metagame, IMO

eh...a perfect wavedash OoS is like maybe 2 frames faster or slower, i forgot

and it comes w/o the risk of accidentally rolling/spot dodging

and all the bonus's that accompany a wd

though i spose if you get used to the timing of a shield drop, you can essentially buffer it out of shieldhitstun

~~~~~~~~~~~ edit ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

shieldrop is 16 frames
wd OoS is 2 frames faster, if done frame perfect
(might be error of 1 frame here somewhere, due to tired johns, but no more than 1 frame)

and this is for samus at least

shieldrop on falco's fsmash gives a 3 frame advantage, you'll be able to get a jab off probably like 100% of the time, if you buffer a shieldrop out of his fsmash and sit there and spam jab

you can grab his fsmash though, the window is pretty small

 

[KAOSTAR]

buffer a shield drop? wtf. u just let go of shield...ie do nothing.

sveet and I are just saying that there are situations where you can simply let your shield drop and punish and that ppl don't use it as much as they could.

also its 16 frames to let your shield drop? why did I think it was 12?

edit:are we talking about different things? shield dropping vs dropping your shield.

 

[Pi]

buffer a shield drop? wtf. u just let go of shield...ie do nothing.

sveet and I are just saying that there are situations where you can simply let your shield drop and punish and that ppl don't use it as much as they could.

also its 16 frames to let your shield drop? why did I think it was 12?

yea that's what i meant by buffer
you let go of shield in shieldhitstun and it would do it as soon as you're out of it as opposed to WD OoS where you have to time the WD

& what i meant by timing is if you try to input a directional command before the shieldrop animation is over, you'll roll
so if you got use to THAT timing, it could be useful, but if you do it too early (aside from jabbing/utilting/neutral b) you'll roll/spotdodge

and kaostar i do not know why you thought it was 12, it may vary from char to char but in dolphin when i just tested it was 15/16 for samus

and all i'm saying is that WD OoS in most situations is going to be more reliable/versatile than shielddrop

 

[KAOSTAR]

and I agree, especially 4 samus. I was just saying letting go is sometimes an option depending on the move you are blocking and its mad ez lol.


random
do you happen to know what the timing in frames is for the low rider? I can do fox's regrab tricks. and yl's and marth. but ive never ben able to missile regrab

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dropping shield is a legitimate shield escape option when you are pressured. For samus, shield drop -> ftilt is probably faster than most people can react to especially since they aren't expecting such an option. This will let you get out of situations where like someone is dash dancing in front of your shield and your back is to the edge (alternative viable option over wd to edge)

 

[Rat]

For samus (& fox,shiek(4 frame jump)) WDooS is faster than shield let go.

 

[Pi]

@shielddrop so basically it's just a mixup/wtf factor that can be used, a gimmick?


@missile regrab
most important part is that you must start the smash missile no later than the 2nd frame after you input the jump
when you jump is at least a 5frame window (I stopped testing after that since 5frames is ez), as long as yoou aren't pressing down

just smash the missile & jump at like the same time and you're good
i'm like 60/70% consistent w/ lowriders, and use them quite often in all of my matches as an off the edge option
i never really sat there and practiced them specifically, less so than shffm, but i just found uses for them in match and was able to use them a lot in friendlies
granted i messed up a lot and it will cost you your life some times

 

[KAOSTAR]

Word on the low rider.

Rat-when you say WD oos is faster by 2 frames, you mean that samus returns to her neutral standing animation I suppose on frame 14? vs if she just let go of shield and is free on frame 16?

If distance isnt your problem, ie can I reach them, then dropping your shield still seems like a legitimate option as far as consistency is concerned...and I like Sveets unexpected factor. Id bet ppl prob WD oos 1-2 frames late(including a less efficient WD) on average, even at top level.

Also found some of the jab reset info that Magus posted

ASDI is 3 units (the unit of size/distance used in the game's coding), and SDI is 6 units. To avoid being reset you need to be off the ground 13 frames after being hit off the floor (when the downdamage animation ends), and you'll go into a normal fall that you can do whatever out of or simply land on your feet. If you're on the ground but still in hitstun after the 13 you can roll/getup attack on the forced getup. If you're no longer in hitstun and on the ground after 13 you're forced to stand up only.

Ignoring the slight differences from the animation causing you to land from a tiny bit higher up (making the min vertical KB to escape slightly less) it'd be something like this for escaping upwards:

Character|Gravity|Fall Distance (13fr)|ASDI Min Vert KB (13fr)|ASDI+SDI Min Vert KB (13fr)
Fox|0.230|20.740|17.740|11.740
Falco|0.170|15.470|12.470|6.470
Bowser|0.130|11.830|8.830|2.830
Ganondorf|0.130|11.830|8.830|2.830
Captain Falcon|0.130|11.830|8.830|2.830
Sheik|0.120|10.920|7.920|1.920
Roy|0.114|10.374|7.374|1.374
Link|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Young Link|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Pikachu|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Pichu|0.110|10.010|7.010|1.010
Donkey Kong|0.100|9.100|6.100|0.100
Ice Climbers|0.100|9.100|6.100|0.100

Weight affects the KB growth, so a heavier character will need to be at higher damage than a lighter character of the same gravity.

Fox accelerates so quickly that he can begin to roll/attack (13+ frames of hitstun) out of most things before he can escape upwards unless you manage to SDI upwards twice. CF certainly doesn't get ***** harder than those two. The weight difference reducing the KB on him means little compared to his lower gravity.

Fall distance is the distance they move downwards over 13 frames due to fall speed. Since they start at 0 when hit it's the sum of 1*Grav + 2*Grav + 3*Grav... + 13*Grav, or simply 7*Grav*13. Only exception being Fox who manages to hit top speed on the 13th frame (his is 2.8) and gets 2.8 on the 13th instead of 13*Grav (2.99).


The part of KB that grows with more percent is affected by weight (knockback growth, KBG). Attacks with set KB like Fox's shine or Peach's jab 1 are also affected by weight (weight dependent set knockback, WDSK).

The base amount of KB an attack with growth does regardless of damage (base knockback, BKB) is the only part that is not affected by weight. If you look at Falco's shine vs Fox's u-tilt it demonstrates KBG/BKB. Falco's shine has huge BKB (110) and sends Bowser pretty far at 0, while Fox's u-tilt with 18 BKB doesn't do much. U-tilt has a lot more KBG though which more than makes up for the difference in BKB at high damages.

 

[Pi]

i wish i understood the game like magus does
not because i feel like it would help me improve as far as tournament placing goes
but just to have that information in my mind would be cool

 

[Violence]

Magus is like... a 1GHz processor and 512 Mb of RAM away from being the best player in the world. Someone should really just upgrade his hardware.