Extra Inch DI! NO MORE MARTH SUPER Regrab

[Ref]

Ness also slides faster and he slides further before 30 frames, basically he slides further before Marth can act.

I got a video of Marth grabbing exactly 1 frame after his shield's first frame so he grabs on 7 instead of 6, this is about how fast you can get it if you are holding R and mashing A. Ness escapes. I used to have an example where it happened on frame 30... but I guess I lost that one.

Also if you want to talk about pressing Z to time it, it's impossible. For some reason when pummeling you can cut the grab release motions on both characters. I got Marth to recover on 26 and Ness on 36. It seems to be some weird mechanism where the pummel must finish up to a certain point. So you'll press Z to early and end up shielding or jabbing or too late and end up missing Ness without him EIDIing. I recall this when I was testing it with bum randomly he would jab or shield using the same timing he was before. There is no way to spot this either.

 

[Levitas]

Ref: give a quantitative test that definitively proves this exists and a mechanic for why it works, and I'll start believing that it does.

 

[Ulevo]

I second this.

Ref, you shouldn't be holding Shield and mashing A. That wastes frame time. I only mash grab (currently my X Button) and I have no problems executing this. I don't time it, I just hit it fast enough.

What you're claiming doesn't add up. Please provide video proof. I want to know if this actually works so that I could potentially apply it to other things, but it really sounds false.

 

[Ref]

I just did have Ness escape even with Marth mash the grab button I used X I will have a video soon.

2 examples at different percents.

I'll post the link once the video is uploaded...

Right now the main worry about this tactic to me is that I'm the only one who can do it...
What good is anything if only one person can do it...

 

[Earthbound360]

Well if more people could find a way to test it easily, more people would try it. Raph has claimed he could do it more consistently. How about you post your testing method? How did you test it out to make yourself sure for that Marth cannot regrab Ness? Did you test this on your own or was someone else regrabbing you?

 

[PKNintendo]

Well I tested this with my bro when It came out and it seemed legit. I COULD try again, but my wii's busted...

 

[Ref]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEpS_jrNpOU

Video Proof again with this time Marth mashing X which was set to grab. Ness EIDI.

 

[PKNintendo]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! The infinite is gone! What ever will we do!?!?!

 

[Earthbound360]

Make claims that it still works

 

[PKNintendo]

Make claims that it still works

No... They wouldn't... Would they?

 

[Shaky]

No... They wouldn't... Would they?

Of course it still works, DON'T YOU SEE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

 

[PKNintendo]

Of course it still works, DON'T YOU SEE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

I knew it was to good to be good. Ref is an idiot. Marth is almighty, praise him!

 

[Earthbound360]

That's it. I'm breaking up with Ref. I don't care if it's valentines day. He's never there for me and he's too much of a workaholic to care. He can never change anyways.

 

[Ulevo]

That's all I needed Ref. I suggest you change the opening post. Thank you for the video.

Now, to see if I can apply this with Bullet Seed to Dedede's CG!

 

[Uffe]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! The infinite is gone! What ever will we do!?!?!

Buy him a new Pedo Grip. I'd say for Valentine's Day, but that's already over.

 

[xoxokev]

I think i'm doing EIDI wrong... can anyone else do it???

 

[Levitas]

No. Nobody can or ever could.

I tested all likely inputs that would be "EIDI" in debug mode, and marth can standing grab chain Ness AND Lucas. Period.

EIDI does not exist.

If you have a problem with this, PM me and give me something to try, because I'd like for it to be in the game as much as you.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

How does Ness get away in Ref's videos then? o_o

I've seen other people also mysteriously escape the infinite too.

If EIDI doesn't exist, how does Ness escape?

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

How does Ness get away in Ref's videos then? o_o

I've seen other people also mysteriously escape the infinite too.

If EIDI doesn't exist, how does Ness escape?

I think that the Marth can mistime it by one or two frames, and Ness can escape in that time.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

In the first video, Ness doesn't move out of the range, he's released out of it. I don't get it.

 

[Levitas]

It doesn't matter what happened in the vids. I tested it in brawl debug, and the fact of the matter is that Ness doesn't slide far enough for any inputs I gave to escape, and he can't possibly do anything in time. Marth has a 6 frame input window to grab in after the grab release. Those are facts that I can prove.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do Ness and Lucas always slide the same distance away regardless of where in the pummel animation they are? I'm wondering if optimal break DI (the normal kind) plus a specific point in the pummel animation puts them too far away. I've observed Marth whiff a standing grab on a grab broken Ness, and I'm curious how that could happen.

 

[Levitas]

I guess I can test that, but it'll take a freaking hour and I need to test one specific DI for that. What DI do you want me to test?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Regardless of the fact that it doesn't work, if it still gets you further away it helps because the margin of error for the marth player gets bigger. Despite it being infinate, it seems a lot harder to pull off then first thought. Meaning the marth player will probably screw up before you get killed. And i highly doubt marth players change grab to x or y just to play ness. So they will more than likly pull out there shield by accident or not even pummel fast enough.

 

[Levitas]

I disagree. This has a much MUCH wider window for error than DDD's stuff against mario and luigi, and I don't know the frame window for DK and bowser.

This is devastating.

Also, I noticed exactly 0 difference between this and just holding away on the analog stick for slide difference.

Also also, the window stays exactly the same for marth to grab ness regardless of slide difference if marth is still in range of a standing grab. All it does is make you try harder to escape by holding two directions and keep you from being able to do something useful like mash out sooner and make them have a harder time by having to get that window more often.

Moral of the story: I just blew this thing apart. EIDI doesn't exist, and you're better served DIing away, mashing out ASAP, and hoping they miss the window.

 

[thesage]

Just press all the buttons at the same time. He can't get more than two jabs on you at like 110 lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

It doesn't matter what happened in the vids. I tested it in brawl debug, and the fact of the matter is that Ness doesn't slide far enough for any inputs I gave to escape, and he can't possibly do anything in time. Marth has a 6 frame input window to grab in after the grab release. Those are facts that I can prove.

That still doesn't explain the video.
It defies all logic, and I'm 99% sure Ref didn't edit the videos. So what happened?

To me, it's Marth grabbed Ness. Ness is released, but slides far enough to escape.

(what does the Debug mode do in conjunction with grabbing?)

 

[Levitas]

PKNintendo, I don't care about ref's video. I played with the only change being that I can control things frame by frame, tried all permutations that would make a difference, and got my results.

If you have a test you would like me to try that is about proving EIDI exists, I'll do it. I'm sick of bad information being spread.

 

[PKNintendo]

PKNintendo, I don't care about ref's video. I played with the only change being that I can control things frame by frame, tried all permutations that would make a difference, and got my results.

If you have a test you would like me to try that is about proving EIDI exists, I'll do it. I'm sick of bad information being spread.

Debug room does that huh.
Well... I suppose it helps to keep information valid. Oh well .

 

[deepseadiva]

PKNintendo, I don't care about ref's video. I played with the only change being that I can control things frame by frame, tried all permutations that would make a difference, and got my results.

Not caring about it doesn't make it disappear. There should at least be some for of explanation for the video as false. Otherwise there will always be "hope".

Modified knockback or something?

 

[thesage]

I found a Di that lets escape if Marth doesn't have good timing.

Honestly this isn't a big deal guys... Other characters have worse infinites IMO, ROB, Lucas, Ness (more of a 0-death but w/e). It's really dumb. Tournaments in my area are banning release grab cgs anyways.

 

[Levitas]

Not caring about it doesn't make it disappear. There should at least be some for of explanation for the video as false. Otherwise there will always be "hope".

Modified knockback or something?

There are a number of way he could have made EIDI look real, none of which involve playing the game in a normal mode and having the marth grab within the correct window.

The reason I said I don't care about it is because that video failed to prove anything, whereas I have tested all but conclusively that there isn't EIDI. I only say all but because I've neglected some things that I believe to be irrelevant, as ALL tests do.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Okay so it doesn't exist, why would you show all of us that.. You could have kept the information to yourself, making others believe the infinate doesn't exist would of helped us out a lot more than what your proving here. Unless you have some big deal over lying or something, i fail to see your logic in showing everyone the infinate still works, when many people were starting to believe it didn't.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ref did this for Ness.
It may have been fake, but it helped the Marth matchup discussion (allowing us to speak our mind)

But most of the Marth mains are terrible ***** so in the end, it made no difference.
I'm sad, but really I would have done the same thing.

 

[xoxokev]

Ref did this for Ness.
It may have been fake, but it helped the Marth matchup discussion (allowing us to speak our mind)

But most of the Marth mains are terrible ***** so in the end, it made no difference.
I'm sad, but really I would have done the same thing.

I don't think Ref intentionally tricked us all into thinking EIDI worked if he really knew it wouldn't work

If he did... well then that's just not cool

 

[Levitas]

I would rather found a character's discussion on truth and facts than lies and deceit.

That said, I'm not sharing the whole story here. I currently have found some of the most ****ing information ever for ness and lucas, and am NOT publishing that, because it is my opinion that that would be more damaging to nesses than anything.

That said, I believe that revealing EIDI was important because we shouldn't be feeding wrong information to new (and not so new) players. Would you feel betrayed if you went ness against marth at your first tournament and tried to implement EIDI to escape unsuccessfully and got 3 stocked twice in a set like that?

By all means, I have no problem discussing this decision with anyone who wants to, through PM or something else.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ugh...

And yeah I understand it guys.
(sigh)

Life is hard. But we gotta pull through. Eh, Levitas I think it needs to be said. Lock this topic.

 

[Levitas]

done and done.

 

[PK-ow!]

I would rather found a character's discussion on truth and facts than lies and deceit.

That said, I'm not sharing the whole story here. I currently have found some of the most ****ing information ever for ness and lucas, and am NOT publishing that, because it is my opinion that that would be more damaging to nesses than anything.

That said, I believe that revealing EIDI was important because we shouldn't be feeding wrong information to new (and not so new) players. Would you feel betrayed if you went ness against marth at your first tournament and tried to implement EIDI to escape unsuccessfully and got 3 stocked twice in a set like that?

By all means, I have no problem discussing this decision with anyone who wants to, through PM or something else.

...

Say it.

What is this danming information? You can't go back on the principle you opened your post with. It's no difference.

I'm not sure what reason yours is, but I can tell you mine: Because we are competitors. What we are doing here is taking ourselves and the game to its limit. For that, we make ourselves accountable to the machine, and the truth of its functioning. We seek to use all of it, to win. And through the interaction of us and all other competitors, in being thus wholly committed to total exploitation of the game as-is, we evolve.

To recoil from some aspect of the program is to deny the game, which is a delirious contradiction with the desire to play it. And moreover, to keep secret data that still became known to you is merely delaying the inevitable - the inevitable case that others will learn the same exploit, and use it to crush us all, to whatever degree it is written in the game's rules that they can.

The best answer to this, is, rightly, beautifully even, in syncopy with the evolutionary imperative above. And that is to make this information known. To put it out there, to be manifested. To have it shown for all to see, to come closer to the real truth of the matter as regards the part of the game which is Ness. To discover by the undeceivable method of competition just what this fact means. Whether it be counterable, in which case requiring that we discover that counter, or not, in which case being nothing but proof of the hopelessness of Ness in truth - in real, committed competition - that you should think yourself at best cowardly, not kind, for holding back from us.

Those who want to take this game to its limit, they screech for this information to be released to the ecosystem. I demand it. True competitors command it of you, Levitas.

I personally wish this can be drama over nothing. But if you ever really understood Sirlin's magnum opus - what do you know?

 

[Levitas]

I seem to remember locking this thread. That will be done again. However, I agree with your analysis, but not your conclusion.

You hit the nail on the head. I specifically didn't state the full set of info in an attempt to slow the spread of information of ness/lucas's most critical secret.

The last thing I want as a competitive ness player is to actively harm his chances of him succeeding in a competitive environment, and believe it or not, illuminating uncounterable strategies that you cannot make use of yourself and can be used on you is a great way to harm your chances.

You conclude that the optimal and "best" state of brawl (or any game) is to have all knowledge out in the open. However, it is reasonable to state that as a result of this illumination, Ness would decline in playability (significantly). As a biased Ness player, I would like to prevent this for as long as possible.

I don't care if you conclude that this conduct is cowardly. I'll retreat damaged units in battle, I'll make use of any strategy I see fit to optomize my chances (and the chances of those who side with me), and in the same way that you claim the right to use all strategies regardless of any perception of cheapness as a competitive gamer, I claim the right to use all strategies as a competitive metagamer. I have no qualms about doing so, in the same way that MK mains shouldn't feel bad about planking wherever it's legal to do so.

Your reasoning is solid, as long as you don't look at optimized play outside of the game of brawl in addition to the component of play that happens once you turn the game on.

If you want to take it up with me, do so in PMs. If you convince me to, I might even re-open this thread.