~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[SinkingHigher]

You b-reversed.

But I maintained the full distance of the doubletap boost, while throwing the needles behind me as I fell in the air.

 

[MrEh]

-10 means that the jab is fairly safe as long as the final hit is shielded and is spaced well. There are far more punishable attacks out there. However, -10 advantage still means that it's easily shieldgrabbed if it's not spaced well. (considering that most grabs come out within 10 frames anyway)

 

[goodkid]

wait, how do u test frames? & can someone explain the d-tilt lock to me because I've been confused about this every since Brawl was released, is it just on certain characters, or is it possible on every char? Or does it start only @ a certain %?

 

[Kataefi]

Don't look at it as a 'lock', look at as an opening of getting more powerful hits in from a frame 5 attack.

Basically... the higher the enemy's percent, the more stun they experience from dtilt. The lower decay of Dtilt, the less stun they will experience. In a match you have to be aware when and how many times you've roughly used dtilt so you can calculate the best possible scenario in your head.

If you're ever in doubt about them shielding... always dtilt > dsmash as your most reliable option. But if you can observe your dtilt use and the enemy's percent you can get more attack in that combo truly.

Look at the OP, it's all explained there. If there are any questions let me know ^^

 

[goodkid]

^^yeah thanks for the info, I actually never had thought about the d-tilt getting stale >_< but I know that it combos @ low % to many things, grabs, f-tilt, up-smash. So your saying that @ low %, its best to end it fast, but then when u get to 50%+ then u can d-tilt lock? Isn't it dependent on the character, because Snake seems to get out really fast, unless it was just @ low %

 

[GodAtHand]

Random sneak attack.

I tested this on Metaknight and I am not sure if it is in escapable since I don't have anyone but computers to play. But at 0% jab > Downward Ftilt > Upsmash. Seems to be a true combo. stops working at 6% though...

 

[Ochobobo]

So I just discovered that Zelda's dtilt can stop Ness's (and I'm assuming Lucas's) PK Fire. It looks awesome and it's a great way to make approach you.

Also has anyone ever successfully thrown Ness into his own PK Thunder? I just thought about it and it sounds epic.

lololol

 

[Kataefi]

Jab > Ftilt can be shielded I believe. Jab > Dash attack works but the frame window is tight.
Jab > Dsmash/tilt works at very low percents also.

What I've found out so far: all sourspots can trip, jab can trip, nayru's can trip. It's all about finding out why they trip... perhaps it's percentage depedant.

Ocho that sounds interesting. Dtilt can stop lucario's auraspheres, pit's arrows, peach's turnips, pika's tjolts, and now the PK fires... would be interesting to see what more it could stop.

I'M SO EXCITED!!! xD I'm going to be getting that frame by frame code thingy so I can finally get some solid frame data on a lot of her moves. Fingers crossed it all goes smoothly.

 

[goodkid]

Jab > Ftilt can be shielded I believe. Jab > Dash attack works but the frame window is tight.
Jab > Dsmash/tilt works at very low percents also.

What I've found out so far: all sourspots can trip, jab can trip, nayru's can trip. It's all about finding out why they trip... perhaps it's percentage depedant.

Ocho that sounds interesting. Dtilt can stop lucario's auraspheres, pit's arrows, peach's turnips, pika's tjolts, and now the PK fires... would be interesting to see what more it could stop.

I'M SO EXCITED!!! xD I'm going to be getting that frame by frame code thingy so I can finally get some solid frame data on a lot of her moves. Fingers crossed it all goes smoothly.

So you do need a frame coder to test frames? Hope it goes well I'm intrested in learning as well, but I mean I don't know how it relates to my game, because we all know what moves are faster than others just by playing, but maybe I'm missing something about the importance of move frames

 

[Kataefi]

I suppose it's finding out the shieldstun and any frame advantages. Suppose Zelda Nayru's someone, and it gives her a +3 frame advantage on block (which would totally never happen but I'm using that as an example), then the opponent would have +1 frame to execute an attack before she can execute hers. So say it's someone like Mario decides to FSmash her, which is 15 frames, from nayru's, then 15-1 =14, so Zelda suddenly has a 14 frame window to counter attack before anything happens...

It's about knowing what the best choices would be up close when things go wrong, and how the mechanics of certain moves work ^^

 

[Ochobobo]

So, it's been recently revealed that Ganondorf's Up B doesn't stun people and they have the ability to get in a move on him before they fly away.

Has anyone tested this with Zelda?

I just tried it out and it seems it depends on how high her damage is. At 150% I was able to get in a nair on him, and at 200% I could sweetspot a LK on him. Strangely, I was only able to do those things at around those percentages, lol

I guess this could be useful if you're at 200% damage and Ganondorf's trying to recover. Jump down to dair him and if his Up B hits you first, get him with a LK, lolol

 

[NinjaLink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LraLkK3wyPs

Dtilt spike at 1:15 if its needed.

 

[Kataefi]

I noticed that. There's a lot of mystery in that match, like the really weird momentum on nayru's at around 1:02, almost as if you directed it going there... I've figured out how to do this but my method's not solid yet. It's to the way you do a lovejump.

I'll look into it. I believe there's 2 different types of hitboxes... one directly in relation to her foot and leg, and the other slightly above and slightly below her foe and leg. The latter hitbox is what spikes... similar to Peach's, but we could make this more consistent I believe.

 

[NinjaLink]

Its not a lovejump. Such a stupid name. Its just B-Boosting.

as for the spike, its the same as melee. funny cause i did them in both games in a week lol. Its not like peachs. U have to delay hers. Zeldas is just the inside as do alot of spikes in this game have to such as pit and link.

 

[Kataefi]

okay then, well I'm glad you figured stuff out.

 

[NinjaLink]

Well i havent been reading threads at all for the past like 4 months so i dont kno what ppl needed to find out.

 

[KayLo!]

Is there complete frame data for Zelda? I saw the data for dtilt, and I searched and found the old thread from a while ago.... but I mean complete frames for her entire moveset, including startup, active hitbox, cooldown, and any IASA/IF frames.

I have the debug code, so I'd be willing to do this if it hasn't been done already. Finishing up the new Pikachu guide right now, but it should be done by tonight or tomorrow, soooo I could start after then.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm SO glad I hunted you down lol! I have been after frame data for AGES... I've got the debug pause so we could work together on this I suppose. I'm hopefully going to start getting this data for monday... but if you could test out her moveset that would be amazing.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm SO glad I hunted you down lol! I have been after frame data for AGES... I've got the debug pause so we could work together on this I suppose. I'm hopefully going to start getting this data for monday... but if you could test out her moveset that would be amazing.

No problem, hehe. I'll start working on it tonight or tomorrow and post what I've done by tomorrow night.

 

[Kataefi]

Ggggrrr... I'm so annoyed. I was using that debug thingy and now my wii has decided to randomly crash. Kay it would wicked if you get the frame of the attacks, the shield stun and general frame disadvantages/potential advantages if possible on her moves and any other useful things. You don't have to do them all at once, just do like 2-3 moves each day and post your finding in this thread. I'll then link it to the OP.

If you could also get the hitstun moves like her sourspots and dair at various different percents that would be amazing! Don't make a new thread about it as it was my intention that this one would house all this immense data ^^ But of course you'll be credited.

On a side note, I played DM online ^^ and died, literally >.>

 

[goodkid]

I've heard that Love Jump can be used on the ground without being hit <_< someone test this cause I'm not going to play until the end of the month, hopefully my Zelda will be a beast then after all this time waiting.

Love Jump is not a stupid name. Even if it is "b-sticking" zelda lacks in the advanced techs, so why not give a cool name to something that is slightly benefiting to her. Love Jump works pretty well in matches, like if an opponent throws out a weak attack and it hits, love jump used above the ledge surprises opponents, they usually just pause for a sec so it opens up for an attack ^_^

 

[NinjaLink]

its still a stupid name.....and its not even 'b-sticking'. Just b moves wit during hitstun.

 

[MrEh]

So, it's been recently revealed that Ganondorf's Up B doesn't stun people and they have the ability to get in a move on him before they fly away.

Recently discovered? People have known about this for months. ^^

Love Jump is such a funny name btw. Haha.

 

[Ochobobo]

Relatively recently, I mean, lol

Anyway, it doesn't seem likely that you'll get up to those high percentages in a match against Ganondorf, unless you're both just messing around lol.

 

[NinjaLink]

I think i debunked the Nayru's Love mystery. The invincibility frames kick in at frame 5 through i THINK 8. The only case where i got hit was snakes uptilt, Where it dodged it but snakes uptilt lasts so long it still hit me and it hit him, him gettin 2%. If someone can figure out how many frames snakes uptilt hitbox lasts for, i can figure this out. I tested it with jiggs jab(5 frames), marth's dtilt(7), ftilt(7), uptilt(6), snakes dtilt (6) and falcos ftilt (5?) and they all missed due to invincy frames and then knocked them back from the attack. I tried moves less than 4 and i got hit. I Think NL hits on frame 8 or 9. Just waiting for confirmation from another person.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I Think NL hits on frame 8 or 9.

So the secret to your awesomeness is to only hit on those frames? I gotta try that.

P.S. What up w/third person?

 

[NinjaLink]

So the secret to your awesomeness is to only hit on those frames? I gotta try that.

P.S. What up w/third person?

NL meaning Nayru's Love not me.........

 

[Brinzy]

I think i debunked the Nayru's Love mystery. The invincibility frames kick in at frame 5 through i THINK 8. The only case where i got hit was snakes uptilt, Where it dodged it but snakes uptilt lasts so long it still hit me and it hit him, him gettin 2%. If someone can figure out how many frames snakes uptilt hitbox lasts for, i can figure this out. I tested it with jiggs jab(5 frames), marth's dtilt(7), ftilt(7), uptilt(6), snakes dtilt (6) and falcos ftilt (5?) and they all missed due to invincy frames and then knocked them back from the attack. I tried moves less than 4 and i got hit. I Think NL hits on frame 8 or 9. Just waiting for confirmation from another person.

Start-up (no effect): 1 - 3
Invincibility: 4 - 11
First hit: 12
Reflect: 3 - 42

42 frames total.


Those are the basics. Not too inclined to go back and see when each individual hitbox comes out. You mentioned trying frame 5 moves and moves less than 4 frames, but what about frame 4 moves themselves? Zelda's Dsmash works perfectly to test it. It should go right through Nayru's Zelda.

 

[Villi]

What? Naryu's Love really lasts only 42 frames and reflects the entire time? That would mean if I missed NL a fully charged aura sphere, I'd be able to always block it amiright?

 

[NinjaLink]

I tried snakes ftilt and i got hit. Cant be frame 4.

 

[Brinzy]

Sorry, that would be 41 frames total, not 42. It is, as far as I can tell, active for 41 frames. In fact, being at the tipper edge of a Fire Flower, I was able to reflect and then powershield, though that may be due to the actual item itself.

As for the invincibility, I see what you're saying. Maybe it has been reduced in Brawl. Melee's is 4 - 11, no questions asked. I also suppose that Zelda's Dsmash isn't in range to hit a Nayru's Zelda on Frame 4 because I was never once hit out of it. Could be 5, but I still say it lasts through frame 11.

 

[NinjaLink]

Zeldas dsmash should be 5. Imma check now...................yea its 5.

Someone with the debug code can confirm it

 

[Kataefi]

I'm currently waiting on Kaylo to get the frames and information on Zelda's moveset. I think she's working hard so I don't want to push it.

In the mean time... I want to talk about din's and get some discussion going. There's something interesting about the white light in the centre of the fireball as it travels... is this how everyone positions din's? Perhaps it can interrupt certain aerials when you target vulnerable parts of the opponent's body. I also believe now that it could interrupt GnW when you target the white light at a specific part of his hurtbox whilst he bairs.

I'm going to compile a chart of how to position din's to punish each aerial in the game, as I believe it can do this with proper spacing, baiting and punishing. We'll see how it goes... I personally find din's more useful when you explode it instantly or very near to Zelda.

 

[Villi]

On the subject of Din's, I'm occasionally able to bait/punish air dodges with it like I do with sidesteps. The trick is being far enough away to get a good downward angle, counter to the way they're falling, then explode it behind them when their air dodge ends.

 

[NinjaLink]

i've done the punish spotdodge with it. Its funny. The best use and gets ppl is when u put the dins fire WAAAY behind them then they stop shielding thinkin they are safe..........then they get hit lmao. Even if they do block, it pulls them away from u.


On Another Note, i wanna see more teleport mindgame usage. after rewatching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyx2swabX14 i realize its fuggin fast. Get to it peeps.

 

[SinkingHigher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh7aIIIm9FU

There's the video you requested Kat.

Note: It's happened lots of times with various moves, but it seems to work best with Lucas's UpB. I think it's a combination of the property of the move and the property of the attack. iirc I only hit X > B, I didn't flick the joystick, which makes me wonder what could have happened.

 

[Silverness]

Hey, I'm still a bit new here and hardly have any posts, but hopefully this isn't something old and totally worthless. I have found a neat little combo for Zelda of the jab/grab variety. Now, many Zelda users seemingly rely on nothing but Zelda’s smashes and back/forward airs, sometimes an occasional up air for the win. These are all excellent moves, but for those of us who want to explore Zelda’s full potential as a character, we want to do more than just sizzle **** KO (even though sizzle **** KO’s are very fun, let me assure you. xD). And thus we have… combos! Zelda is sometimes looked down upon for lack of combos, as she is frequently compared to Shiek in that particular area. Well this is where I stomp my foot down and assure you guys… Zelda does have combo potential. It’s only a matter of finding it.

Now… let’s go back to the subject of her jab/grab combo. First off, Zelda has an incredible grab game. It’s really a shame that people don’t use her grabs more often, because they are really quite handy for combo-ing. As most of us know, Zelda’s down throw followed by an immediate dash or up smash are nice ways of building up some damage. Her down tilt is also an excellent way of combo-ing someone, as there are so many things you can do with it to combine with another move.

However.

Did you ever wonder about Zelda’s combo potential with her jab? You probably don’t use her jab all that often. You’re obviously not going to be killing anything with that move, and as far as damage goes, it really doesn’t do that much. Hm… a move that can’t kill and can’t do much damage. So what is it useful, then? I’ll tell you. First off, for priority. I know that seems a bit vague, but this move has surprisingly good priority. Aside from Zelda’s down smash and Nayru’s Love, her jab is a nice way to keep people off of you. I’ve found this move also to be useful when fighting Peach for some reason. If Peach is in the air, up smash will do, and if she’s on the ground, try Zelda’s jab and you might just get some decent results. But anyway, this is just an example of how jab could work for priority. Let me talk about combos.

When you hit your opponent with your jab, I believe it has at least three hit boxes, so there’s a good chance you’ll be hitting them, unless they somehow manage to evade you. As soon as they get hit, observe that they are temporarily stunned in place. Take advantage of this to follow up with a grab (or a dash, but if you go for the grab, you’ll have even more combo following up after that). As soon as you grab, quickly tap A or Z at least two times for some additional damage, then down throw. All of this alone already racks up a 22 percent damage while they can barely move. After you down throw, you can follow up with anything after that. For damage, I’d suggest a dash, but for KO, go with up or side smashes. If you go with the dash, you will total to 31 damage. Not too shabby, hm? Let me rephrase that in simpler terms.

- Jab
- Immediately run for a grab while they are stunned
- Get as much damage as you can from holding your opponent. Hitting A or Z at least two times might suffice before they get away.
- Down throw
- Follow with a dash or smash move.

And let’s see… I think as far as down tilts go, this thread pretty much states everything I would have suggested. I hope this helps, and if it seems complicated, don’t hesitate to ask me =)

 

[GodAtHand]

On Another Note, i wanna see more teleport mindgame usage. after rewatching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyx2swabX14 i realize its fuggin fast. Get to it peeps.

Ledge warp is one of my favorite things to do with Zelda. Ledge warp to lightning help me three stock a falco at a tournament last week, looked friggin sweet too!

I only know the ledgewarp areas for FD, BF, and SV. Do you know any other stages that you can use it consistently?

 

[SinkingHigher]

Ledge warp is one of my favorite things to do with Zelda. Ledge warp to lightning help me three stock a falco at a tournament last week, looked friggin sweet too!

I only know the ledgewarp areas for FD, BF, and SV. Do you know any other stages that you can use it consistently?

It works on every stage that has a platform or ledge. In other words, almost every stage. You don't have to hold left or right. Any non-upward direction between left and right will work. It's also possible to ledgewarp from the air. (And apparently off stage, but I can't seem to recreate it. I think it's a Final Destination glitch though.)

Learn the horizontals and diagonals. That's probably all you'll ever need.

Simpler stages include:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Upper platform, but I think the ledges work too)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
Spear Pillar
Smashville (Hovering platform works diagonally)
Skyworld

It's also possible on:

Eldin Bridge
Port Town Aero Dive
WarioWare
Castle Siege
Distant Planet.
All of the Melee Stages.

I'm sure there are others but that's all the stages I can remember. I never use the others.

 

[Brinzy]

stuff

While most of that is true and works, the problem with Dthrow is that if the opponent holds their control stick away from Zelda, they'll fly low and far away from Zelda, meaning she can't ever get a reliable punishment on her opponents. I actually tend to Uthrow to at least be around them, but whatever works, right?