~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[Silverness]

While most of that is true and works, the problem with Dthrow is that if the opponent holds their control stick away from Zelda, they'll fly low and far away from Zelda, meaning she can't ever get a reliable punishment on her opponents. I actually tend to Uthrow to at least be around them, but whatever works, right?

That's true. If the opponent holds their control stick away, then it won't give Zelda the chance to punish. This tactic works about 80% of the time, and almost always catches people off guard, so it's really worth a shot once in awhile. Course, I would also like to discover some other combos involving Zelda's throws, like what move to use after doing her up throw? Neutral air, perhaps? Then her side throws... followed by a forward air or back air, though it may be tricky to hit.

 

[goodkid]

Ledge warp is one of my favorite things to do with Zelda. Ledge warp to lightning help me three stock a falco at a tournament last week, looked friggin sweet too!

I only know the ledgewarp areas for FD, BF, and SV. Do you know any other stages that you can use it consistently?

Ledgewarp works on Yoshi's Island too from the ground, its easiest for me on this stage, but FD/Smashville are more useful. Battlefield is also easy to do, just get by one of the bricks. Ledgewarp is pretty flashy, how did you 3 stock again? like was the falco hanging on the ledge? or was he recovering?

I just found this Melee vid of Zelda using Nayru'ss invincibility frames. We need a Brawl vid of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FRAvjVB3Q&feature=related

Lol I know were focusing on Dins but she just has soo much that we haven't touched yet

 

[goodkid]

On Another Note, i wanna see more teleport mindgame usage. after rewatching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyx2swabX14 i realize its fuggin fast. Get to it peeps.

yeah I've been using the teleport mindgames lately as well, like now I'll go to the ledge & teleport in the same spot hoping that my opponents will try to get up for a d-smash or I'll use it under them when there close to the ground. FW confuses opponents when you use it, I agree w/ that it should be used more often, makes Zelda unpredictable

 

[goodkid]

ooh yeah, whats Zelda's best way to momentum-cancel, I'm thinking dair isn't good to use anymore, does it really cancel momentum because its really slow & I think bair may be good for momentum-cancel, someone test this.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Ledgewarp works on Yoshi's Island too from the ground, its easiest for me on this stage, but FD/Smashville are more useful. Battlefield is also easy to do, just get by one of the bricks. Ledgewarp is pretty flashy, how did you 3 stock again? like was the falco hanging on the ledge? or was he recovering?

I just found this Melee vid of Zelda using Nayru'ss invincibility frames. We need a Brawl vid of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FRAvjVB3Q&feature=related

Lol I know were focusing on Dins but she just has soo much that we haven't touched yet

I've got some clips here and there of NL stopping Final Smashes. I think some moves go straight through you. iirc Upsmash apparently has some invincibility frames. Sometimes attacks seem to go straight through you, like Jigglypuff's roll.

 

[Villi]

Rollout went through Zelda because Jigglypuff loses its hitbox when it shifts direction during rollout.

 

[Kataefi]

When a character slams to the floor, or misses a tech, can this become punishable with din's? I.e., if they get up, attack, or roll left or right they'll experience some form of afterlag that din's could damage them for.

If this is possible, then there are a lot of ways din's could punish, as I've noticed a lot of Zelda's moves are capable of being teched -- 2 hits of dsmash most notably, and some parts of jab. Also from a trip.

Also... I've noticed, a trip gives Zelda a +19 frame advantage apparently... would this be enough to jump and fastfall fair for a sweetspot?

Taking off is what?? 6-7 frames... then there's the peak of her jump where her momemtum slows, and then the fast fall begins... fair is 8 frames, but this would occur with the fast fall as she's already in the air.

 

[Villi]

Short hop:

Duration: 52
Start up: 5
Airborne: 6-50
Land: 2

Short hop, fast fall:

Duration: 46
Start up: 5
Airborne: 6-42
Land: 4

Full hop:

Duration: 78
Start up: 5
Airborne: 6-74
Land: 4


Full hop, fast fall:

Duration: 66
Start up: 5
Airborne: 6-62
Land: 4

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda's Frame Data.

Umm, I think having a thread for this would be easier since I could update it mo' betta, but as requested by Kataefi, I'm posting this here.

Really sorry this took so long.... real life johns. I had a horrible weekend, which is why this isn't anywhere near as close to being done as I wish it was. I'm definitely going to do more tonight (gonna to finish Naryu's in its entirety, for one), but I wanted to at least post something.

Most of what I finished is just startup, first hitbox, and IASA frames (I counted it as the first frame she could shield), but it gives the general idea of how fast Zelda's attacks are. I'm debating whether or not I want to do true cooldown.... since you can end a move on its IASA frames, having true cooldown doesn't really help much. But if people want them, I'll do them.

Partial credit goes to K Prime.

Ground Moves
Jab
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11-
IASA: frame 24

Ftilt
Startup: 1-11
Hitbox: 12-
Cooldown:
IASA: frame 40

Dtilt
Startup: 1-4
Hitbox: 5-
Cooldown:
IASA: frame 25

Utilt
Startup: 1-9
Hitbox: 10-
Cooldown:
IASA: frame 48

Fsmash
Startup: 1-15
Hitbox: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 (5 hits)
Cooldown: 25-
IASA: frame 40

Dsmash
Startup: 1-3
Hitbox: 4-
Cooldown:
IASA: frame 40

Usmash
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 (11 hits)
Cooldown: 32-
IASA: frame 57

Dash Attack
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-
Cooldown:
IASA: frame 38

Aerial Moves
Nair
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-
Cooldown:
IASA:

Specials
Naryu's Love
Startup: 1-12
Hitbox: 13-
Cooldown:
IASA: frame 60
IF: 5-11

Farore's Wind (Part 1)
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11-
Cooldown:
IASA:

*When she reappears, hitbox begins on frame 1

Grabs/Throws
Standing Grab: 12 frames
Dash Grab: 11 frames
Pivot Grab: 14 frames

Grab Pummel: frame 7, hits every ? frames

Defensive Moves
Shield: 1 frame
Shield Drop: 7 frames

Spotdodge
Startup: 1
Active: 2-20
Cooldown: 21-25

Roll (normal)
Startup:
Active:
Cooldown: ?-31

 

[NinjaLink]

FINALLY!!!! Kaylo is amazing!

<3s

Wtf at a 11 frame jab. At least its an Anti-Air.

 

[Villi]

:o!!! Her spot dodge is pretty sweet

 

[MrEh]

Holy crap that's a slow grab.

It's actually faster to drop your shield and Dsmash then it is to shieldgrab. ><


EDIT: Zelda spotdodge data that K Prime got was different. Something must be off here.

 

[Kataefi]

This is all amazing stuff!

5-11 invincibility on nayru's... and a good spotdodge, and still a frame 6 dash attack as opposed to a possible frame 7 one, this makes it more viable for dtilt combos. Shame about grab, but I don't shield grab often in pressured situations in case anyone autocancels to jab or whatever. I grab from a dtilt now at later percents, it's practically guaranteed xD

I'll update the OP with all this frame data! Thanks so much!

 

[KayLo!]

EDIT: Zelda spotdodge data that K Prime got was different. Something must be off here.

I'll check with him tonight. I tested it several times, and I got 23 frames every time, so I'll ask how he tested his and compare.

 

[MrEh]

The spot dodge data seems sort of iffy to me. I dunno...

Spotdodge
Startup: 1
Active: 2-23
Cooldown: 24-25

Spotdodge
Startup: 1
Active: 2-20
Cooldown: 21-25

It's different for some reason.


EDIT: The duration seems to be fine, but not the invincibility. Did you test it with the FLUDD?

 

[KayLo!]

EDIT: The duration seems to be fine, but not the invincibility. Did you test it with the FLUDD?

No, I timed it against Mario's jab. (I.e., if I wanted to test invincibility on frame 20, I timed it so that Mario's jab would come out on frame 20 of the spotdodge.) It worked for the startup frames, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for cooldown frames.

Like I said, I'll ask Prime about it tonight. No worries, we'll get it sorted out.

 

[Kataefi]

Once we finalise the frame data, we need to somehow acquire the shieldstun and hitstun of her moves and come up with potential (and I predict there could be quite a few) frame traps ^^ I'm very excited!

 

[NinjaLink]

i kno after a jab i dtilt. I dont think they can punish that cause i think theres frame advantage on block from the jab.

 

[Kataefi]

Villi reported a -10 frame advantage... which would imply it can be shieldgrabbed, does jab have good shield pushback to escape grabs?? Because baiting a grab and dtilting would guarantee the hit.

Also, Ninjalink I've been trying to come up with interesting ways to pressure shields... i.e. some kind of shield breaker combo... do you have any ideas?

 

[KayLo!]

Ok, guys, Prime explained to me what was going on. Apparently during spotdodges (and rolls and airdodges, I'm assuming), characters don't just go between vulnerability and invincibility.... there's a point at which they're "in the background" (as he put it) and can be hit by certain attacks but not others.

For example, I tried Mario's jab, Ike's jab, Pika's jab, and Wario's bite, and none of them could touch Zelda during frames 21-23. But Pika's dsmash -- the move Prime ultimately told me to try after we figured out Bite was failing -- could. Good to know, especially as I test the rest of her defensive frames.

Anyway, the data's been fixed. Thanks to MrEh for pointing it out, and sorry for the mistake. Everything else is correct. I'll work on getting more tonight.

 

[NinjaLink]

Villi reported a -10 frame advantage... which would imply it can be shieldgrabbed, does jab have good shield pushback to escape grabs?? Because baiting a grab and dtilting would guarantee the hit.

Also, Ninjalink I've been trying to come up with interesting ways to pressure shields... i.e. some kind of shield breaker combo... do you have any ideas?

dtilt, jab, dtilt, nair through and behind them to reverse dtilt to fsmash. Something like that. I nearly broke a shield doin these things. Fsmash seems to have the biggest shield wearer.

Btw spacing a jab cant be grabbed.

Ok, guys, Prime explained to me what was going on. Apparently during spotdodges (and rolls and airdodges, I'm assuming), characters don't just go between vulnerability and invulnerability.... there's a point at which they're "in the background" (as he put it) and can be hit by certain attacks but not others.

For example, I tried Mario's jab, Ike's jab, Pika's jab, and Wario's bite, and none of them could touch Zelda during frames 21-23. But Pika's dsmash -- the move Prime ultimately told me to try after we figured out Bite was failing -- could. Good to know, especially as I test the rest of her defensive frames.

Anyway, the data's been fixed. Thanks to MrEh for pointing it out, and sorry for the mistake. Everything else is correct. I'll work on getting more tonight.

Thats good to kno.

 

[Kataefi]

I felt it couldn't be that good!

Kay is there anyway to get the hitstun her moves inflict on enemy contact?

 

[NinjaLink]

Someone needs to make a dammn code for hitboxes dammit.

 

[Villi]

Someone needs to make a dammn code for hitboxes dammit.

;______; If they do, screenshots plz.

 

[Kataefi]

Something I've been experimenting with is a sourspot bair autocancelled to usmash or dtilt behind the opponent whilst they're in hitstun facing the other way. This is all at slightly later percents though where the hitstun is slightly more significant.

By the time they use frames to turn around and attack, I strongly believe she could catch them in usmash or dtilt. And if they shield immediately, Zelda is behind them at an advantageous position with potential grabs, shieldpoke jabs, dtilts etc etc...

 

[MrEh]

Ok, guys, Prime explained to me what was going on. Apparently during spotdodges (and rolls and airdodges, I'm assuming), characters don't just go between vulnerability and invincibility.... there's a point at which they're "in the background" (as he put it) and can be hit by certain attacks but not others.

That's interesting to know. There was this one thread awhile back about Luigi dodging Falco's laser with an Utilt. I guess that was just Luigi "in the background." ^^

Someone needs to make a dammn code for hitboxes dammit.

YES.

Dtilt would be hilarious. ^^

 

[KayLo!]

I felt it couldn't be that good!

Kay is there anyway to get the hitstun her moves inflict on enemy contact?

Yeah, I'll work on that after I get all the hitbox info done.

Also, I retested Zelda's IFs for Naryu's with the new method to make sure they were right, and they were. Frames 5-11 are IFs... if she gets hit sooner than that, Naryu's gets interrupted; if the first hitbox frame of Pika's dsmash hits her during frame 12 or later, the attacks collide, and they both take damage.

If there's any particular order you want me to go in, lemme know now (I know to do Naryu's first)... I'll probably start testing in an hour or so. Otherwise I usually go in a random order to break up the multi-hit moves since those are a *****.

 

[Villi]

If there's any particular order you want me to go in, lemme know now (I know to do Naryu's first)... I'll probably start testing in an hour or so. Otherwise I usually go in a random order to break up the multi-hit moves since those are a *****.

Would it be possible to determine how long the hitboxes are out for dtilt, dair, and dash attack? Those seem like pretty beefy attacks, but I wonder just how beefy.

 

[KayLo!]

Would it be possible to determine how long the hitboxes are out for dtilt, dair, and dash attack? Those seem like pretty beefy attacks, but I wonder just how beefy.

Sure. I'll do those right after Naryu's.

(Btw, every time I see your avatar, I lol a little. )

 

[KayLo!]

More Frame Data.

Spoiler

Double post? I don't see a double post.... =X

Decided against making my own thread since the OP here seems like it'll be updated pretty frequently. Here's the frame data I collected last night (only posting new stuff, see here for old data).

Airdodge and roll data came from K Prime's thread.

Also, for cooldown, I just went up to a move's IASA frames. True cooldown is pretty useless since you can interrupt the move sooner if it has IASAs.... so in this list, the frame after the move's last cooldown frame is the first frame Zelda can shield or do another move. Hope that makes sense!

*to short hop, hold jump for 6 frames or less
*to full hop, hold jump for 7 frames or more

Jab
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11, 13, 15 (3 hits)
Cooldown: 16-23

Ftilt (all angles)
Startup: 1-11
Hitbox: 12-14
Cooldown: 15-39

Dtilt
Startup: 1-4
Hitbox: 5-11
Cooldown: 12-24

Dash Attack
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-13
Cooldown: 14-37

Dair
Startup: 1-14
Hitbox: 15-24
Cooldown: 25-

Naryu's Love
Startup: 1-12
Hitbox: 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits)
Cooldown: 29-59
Invincibility: 5-11
Reflects: 5-44

Airdodge
Startup: 1-3
Invincibility: 4-29
Cooldown: 30-49

Roll (Forward/Back)
Startup: 1-3
Invincibility: 4-19
Cooldown: 20-31

 

[Villi]

Mm, them's some good hitboxin. ty KayLo. =)

 

[Kataefi]

Dtilt is out for 6 frames??? That's must longer than I had expected. If, say, an opponent was to shield and get dtilted, and then immediately grab OoS whilst the dtilt hitbox was still out, would that imply that they get hit?

 

[MrEh]

Dtilt is out for 6 frames??? That's must longer than I had expected. If, say, an opponent was to shield and get dtilted, and then immediately grab OoS whilst the dtilt hitbox was still out, would that imply that they get hit?

No, that's not how it works. Once the hitbox strikes something, it disappears.

Meaning that if it hits their shield on frame, the hitbox wouldn't hit it again.

 

[Kataefi]

I see! This makes sense now.

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, Zelda has some crazy long hitboxes. I've occasionally had people walk into the middle of my dtilt, lol.

I'll see if I can get a few more moves done tonight.... now that I have a system going, it's a lot faster. I just keep getting distracted by TWEWY.... =X

 

[Kataefi]

Haha! Well I have to say... I 've asked so many people for this kind of data, and you're the ONLY one whose not bailed out on me!

I was wondering if you could do the shield stun and hitstun of these moves e.g. if she hits a shield with FSmash, how many frames do they have of stun inside their shield, and if they're hit, how many frames before her target can react again...

Would be interesting to know. If this is far too much though then give it a break and do it later. Better late than never xD

 

[Ochobobo]

Some more virtually useless Zelda trivia, lol:

Mario's Giant taunt is actually affected by the the LK hitbox. You could easily sweetspot his head, and he'll immediately shrink back down to normal size and fly away.

Keep in mind next time a Mario opponent actually uses that taunt against you, and if/when you don't mind attacking people when they're taunting, lolol.

 

[NinjaLink]

If i can i'll try to help out with frame data being i just got the code working.


EDIT: Found some frames out. Not too detailed though but something to pass us along.

Fair: 8 frames
Bair: 5 Frames
Uair: 14 Frames

Din's: 31 frames with a short burst from start.
Fire hits 9 frames after releasing charge.
47 Frames holding down from start of charge. (as in the flame hits the floor)

Transform: 81 Frames minimum...cause we kno how the game likes to load at times

<100% Ledge Attack : 27 frames
≥100% Ledge Attack : 34


As for how long the hitbox last im not sure how to test for that. Maybe Kaylo would be nice to do that :3. Hope this helps

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks! I'll edit the OP with this information. If you could get data on the hitstun of her moves that would be very useful.

About din's... you know the 31 frames for a short burst?, does that include the 9 frames after releasing the charge or is it 31 frames for the projectile to come out + the 9 frames for it to detonate?

 

[Villi]

I got some for possible Din's frametraps:

- How much landing lag do you get from an aerial Din's?

- If you make it so you get the minimum landing lag possible, with the maximum Din's strength, do you get a good frame advantage on block? I'm hoping for something like -4, at least.

There seem to be various kinds of landing lag from doing an aerial Din's. Some of them are extremely short, almost as if Din's were lagless. Sometimes I get the likes of FW landing lag. And other times, I have to finish parts of the animation on the ground from waiting too long to detonate.

I've gotten training mode combos off of 11-12% Din's by full hopping in and hitting the back of Wario's head (I put him at 80%) with the edge of the Din's hitbox, then short hopping and up air. I finish the Din's so that my lag completes while I'm drifting forward in the air, so when I land I can immediately jump and connect up air.

My logic is if it can combo after ~ 21+ frames, it might have a decent advantage on block if you manage to get close enough.