Falcon Mind-Meld: A Captain Falcon Matchup Thread (now on: EDGEGUARDING))

[0Room]

In theory marth is the perfect character
And he should never get hit

But reality is not theory lol, that's why he's fallen so far
And why I think that the whole Fox being the best needs to be reexamined

But anywho
Back to edgeguarding

I think Falcon's best place to edgeguard is slightly above the edge
SHknee is amazing

 

[Walt]

Edgeguarding is too complicated based on other how characters recovery works, if they're coming in high, low, mid, DJing to the edge, airdodgeing to the edge, grappling, or intentionally wallteching to simplify it to say where his best place to edgeguard is in general imo.

 

[0Room]

Well that's true
But I'm saying you should probably try to push them to that point

Because Falcon's best edgeguarding move is knee
and the easiest place to use it is right next to the ledge because it covers most of the ledge
So that's my logic

 

[Skeletom]

utilt man!
that is the best edgeguarding move. it can cover mid and low recoveries if timed right.

 

[Mr Postman]

utilt man!
that is the best edgeguarding move. it can cover mid and low recoveries if timed right.

nah bro... falcon punch!

 

[Windrose]

utilt is so great for gimping people if they don't sweet spot ledge grab! (especially if they try to come back with an attack after thrown or hit off the edge at low percent)

i don't use u tilt much anymore for edge guards cuz of timing plus better options imo. I started doing more of those angled forward tilt like hax and sometimes s2j. Except maybe in falcon dittos do i still use utilt to edgeguard cuz it seems to be so good vs falcon.

 

[Wenbobular]

Utilt is the boring option in dittos
Knee is still better when they have the option of going over your uptilt though

 

[0Room]

Utilt is good but requires more time/gives them more options in a way
When you hit them, they usually aren't hit far enough at low percents where they can't go around it/try again

Knee at lower percents is better imo

 

[FabulousGeorge]

This is sort of coming from the the video critique thread, but seems more appropriate here.


What are the mechanics of the nana edgehog?

Does she get up straight away all the time?

I think I saw a moment where s2j delayed his recovery against fly amanita so she got up and he managed to grab the edge without any trouble.

If this is possible (if I didn't make it up) is there anything the IC player can do to counter?


Also, s2j was doing an awful lot of getupattacks. Are they better on ics?

 

[Wenbobular]

Getup attacks will work if your opponent doesn't punish them <_< just use your head for that ... although it does hit Nana sometimes cuz she's a tard haha

Falcon can't really sweetspot I'm sure they could just Fsmash you or something and you'd be screwed anyways

 

[0Room]

Just remember that Nana doesn't pull any amazing recovery moves
She Djs and that's it

As far as recovery from ICs I dunno

 

[Wenbobular]

Who were you answering 0room o.O

 

[0Room]

Everyone

Actually George
I thought he was asking about edgeguarding nana but then I thought he was asking about recovering and so I was just like
**** it
answer everyone

 

[FabulousGeorge]

I was talking about when nana grabs the edge when popo is still on the stage. Does she get straight back up all the time?

 

[0Room]

I don't think she can
afaik the ledge can only have one person at a time, Nana just jumps on stage

 

[Wenbobular]

I think you're a little confused 0room <_<

@George - it's probably determined by dumb Nana AI things which you'd be better off going to the ICs boards for, but I do see her do the normal getup a lot of the time

 

[0Room]

Yeah I can honestly say I'm lost

What I'm imagining is
Popo has ledge
Nana falls down to grab ledge

But as far as I know/have experienced
Nana cannot grab the ledge at the same time
So she jumps back on the stage


Now whether or not that was the answer that you were looking for i dunno

 

[FabulousGeorge]

I'll go to the IC boards and see what I can bring back.

Sorry for being confusing

Asked the wise ones and they said:

She always chooses her getup on the first possible frame after being on the ledge.

It depends on the enemies position I feel, but it is essentially random as to what she does.

I feel like getup attack and roll are by far the most likely when I put nana on the ledge.

 

[Wenbobular]

I was talking about when nana grabs the edge when popo is still on the stage. Does she get straight back up all the time?

0room is illiterate

I've seen Nana stand up a lot but who knows
Getup attack and roll are way better than that though so let's hope he's mistaken <_<

 

[0Room]

Apparently I am
I haven't been getting a lot of sleep lately so I tend to skip things

 

[Wenbobular]

Sleep is sweet you should get more of it

 

[0Room]

So is melee
And everyone in my dorm doesn't wanna play because "it's hard and old and dead"

So they play Brawl Minus

 

[Tekk]

About edgeguarding with falcon, vs fox and falco:

I think bair is the best move to gimp them efficiently, as it's hitbox prevents tradehits with their upB, and it's quick animation/short lag allows you to react quickly to their recovery.
When fox/falco is below the edge (not right below obv, but in a diagonal) and you're holding it, you can simply drop and bair them like sheik does. I use it a lot and I haven't encountered any problems with that strategy yet.

Though, you must know that the most important thing with falcon is mixups: you can't always do the same things to edgeguard, like falco/fox/sheik do, you have to adapt every time you put your opponent in a bad situation.
Be creative and smart in your edgeguarding, so it's 100% safe in a given situation, and remember you can go offstage and be safe, you just have to think before you do.

 

[0Room]

I have two problems with bair for edgeguarding
Not to take away from anything you said because all of that is true

And honestly even though I play sheik sometimes I didn't think of that

But anywho
1) Bair doesn't really hit below itself
If you want to hit someone around your feet at SH height, bair is not your answer
Therefore standing on stage, knee is probably better

2) The knockback is kind of bad at anything less than like...70-90%
If you do what you were talking about [release, bair, return] at like 30% [yay early gimps]
That's really not gonna work :/

I mean obviously I know what you're saying I just wanted to put those two things out there

 

[Wenbobular]

It works if they jump into you after you Bthrow (prog with a 100%+ lead)
But at that point anything will hit them because they're jumping back like a moron <_<

 

[BigD!!!]

you dont have to kill with it though

letting go with bair seems not that worth it, too specific of a situation and fastfall dj bair will work in more situations and be easier to recover from, but bair is really good for a safe, easy hit that will force them to recover from below the stage. from there, especially on falco, you can do the sheik/marth **** and just go down and dj uair him most likely, unless he goes way down, but you can make it back from surprisingly low. even if you dont go down for the uair, you can just fastfall a weak knee at them, or just grab the ledge and use invincibility. this is safer, but also leaves more room for them to do things about it (tech, use funny angles, etc)

at 30% or so you can even bair into dropzone and ****

long story short, knock em below the stage with a soft little bair and go after them

 

[Walt]

My goal against falco is pretty much get him below the stage or even with the ledge. If below he is getting weak knee'd or invincible stomp/bair depending on the situation. If his DJ will get him even with the ledge he is getting an off stage knee to the face or a dtilt at the ledge.

 

[Tekk]

letting go with bair seems not that worth it, too specific of a situation and fastfall dj bair will work in more situations and be easier to recover from

Fastfall dj bair is what I was talking about actually, my mistake.

 

[0Room]

Oh then yeah
I do that **** all the time

I thought you were talking about falling with bair out
Then returning to stage
And I was like

dunno about that

 

[Gahtzu]

idk if anybody has mentioned it but lately ive been using
grab ledge->jump->bair->ledge regrab
and it seems to be very effective for the most part

 

[0Room]

That's what we were just talking about lol

 

[Wenbobular]

It's good for everything but the going straight at the ledge angle
Then it becomes terrible because they grab the ledge before you and you die <_<

 

[Gahtzu]

truuuuuu
wavelanding off the stage also 2gud

 

[Walt]

If you drop off a little and dj bair it covers straight at the edge and diagonal if they are up-Bing somewhat close to the edge. Not super amazing information but there is a situation where it will cover both options. Usually you will have to up-b back though, so it isn't bair regrab it's just ledgehopping backwards bair or something.

 

[0Room]

Which makes it infinitely more dangerous
Not just because if they get around the first one you put out there you're dead
But if it doesn't kill them they'll return to stage faster than you and then you're dead

 

[_Rocky_]

if you dont suck **** and **** it up theres no issue though

 

[Gahtzu]

if u run off stage with bair can you dj back toward the stage w/ uair and make it back on?

if so, then double option ****

 

[Wenbobular]

Bair hits behind you, what options are you trying to cover again <_<?
Also doesn't work by a mile

 

[Gahtzu]

just for when u knock them off the stage and they have to make the decision to fall down and recover or use dj and recover or just recover at ledge height (if ur fighting spacies).
doesnt work tho damn

 

[DuckPimp]

i think ledgehop regrab bair is so cool, and i try to make it hit in situations where i know it probably wont.