Falcon Mind-Meld: A Captain Falcon Matchup Thread (now on: EDGEGUARDING))

[Wenbobular]

Sheik and Marth are like the last characters you want to be going off against though ... they have super predictable on stage recoveries so all you want to be doing is hanging abusing their landing lag

I mean <_< that hardly counts

Vs Sheik you hang on the ledge and do neutral getup -> stomp/knee landings on stage or wavedash back if she goes above the ledge, and if she's far enough away you can just ledgehop

Vs Marth you lightshield edgehog -> ledgehop destruction

If they're close enough to the ledge with their double jump but still need to do something to get back on stage you ledgestall and kill them if they enter the Bair killzone

If they can get back with just their jump they don't count as being offstage yet xD

 

[Aussierob123]

yeah that's all true. But even with spacies, to just knee on reaction is really hard, especially if you play a good spacey that mixes it up and drops low sometimes you know? and all it takes is for like, SH knee to miss a fox's phantasm when he hits the ledge and then you get ledge hop bair'd and die.

Not saying it's wrong, cuz I often do it loool, weak knee > uair ***** when it hits. But is it worth the risk?

 

[Wenbobular]

It's one of the best ways to cover illusions because it also gets a lot of Firefoxes
You don't really need reaction, just go out and do it, it catches any illusion they do for a long time

React to dropping low by jumping back, you usually get back at around the same time
Or you could just trade stocks like a champ xD
Or if you're amazing you can trade hits with stomp or something and have their up-b send you back on stage while they die
I don't really know the timing for that though <_<

 

[FabulousGeorge]

Sorry for going off topic, but I've been wondering for a while how you do the dthrow chaingrab on falco like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Aug4eNdMQ#t=1m27s

Do they have to DI a certain way, or am I just not quick enough? I play PAL if there is any difference

 

[_Rocky_]

as long as they don't di out you can do it at mid percents

 

[0Room]

Pseudo Chaingrab up starts at mid 40s->50s

I say that even though it starts earlier so that you won't decide "Oh this is close enough" and do it too early
Pseudo chaingrab down starts at like 60ish, most noticeable around 70
So a lot of times people will freak the **** out and DI in so then you just dropzone them
If any character ever DIs away though, the chaingrab stops working at any percent

Anywho
Does anyone else like to run out there while someone is charging a firefox and knee them out of that?
My theory is
I want to take as many options away from them as possible
Getting out there and hitting them while they're charging removes ALL options
So that's a victory imo

 

[Deleted member]

i probably coulda beat m2k if I knew how to edgeguard even a shiek

sigh

==

conditioning them to up-b a lot then going out for them when they are gunna do it is pretty good but im scared

 

[0Room]

Well remember that Sheik's only recovery option IS upB and when it lands it's laggy as ****
So you're wanting to revolve your edgeguarding around that

Grab the ledge
If she's close enough to mix up the teleport [straight above you, or on the stage] just wait and respond, if they go on stage you're gonna wanna ledgehop a reverse knee/dair->knee
If they're close enough to hit you with the explosion things get tougher
Basically, what Scar says [and it's pretty useful] is that he does the neutral stand up when the explosion happens [make sure to time it as close to the explosion as possible, it doesn't hold the ledge that long!]
So if they try to grab the ledge you're still technically on it
and if they go straight up you ftilt and regrab the ledge

That's pretty much the gist of it
Your entire gameplan should basically be get them offstage and abuse their bad recovery
Which is what she does to you

CF and Sheik are remarkably similar
They have the same goal but different tools

 

[DuckPimp]

i have the sheik edgeguard as a flowchart based on how far away they are

in general terms, the distance should be determined by how far the explosion is away from you

grab the edge, and be mindful of how far away you hit the sheik. there are essentially 3 ranges you need to keep in mind. the first is long range. if you hit them quite far away, their explosion will not be able to reach you when they up-b. in this case they have two options, ledge or stage. when going for the ledge, they will either poof exactly where you are to mindgame a sweetspot, or they will poof directly above you and hope you f*** up and try to ledgehop aerial them and fall on the ledge that way. in either case, just chill out on the ledge and dont even give a s***. if they go onto the stage, ledgehop reverse knee, stomp->knee, waveland grab, whatever. punish hard. these two options they have are easily reacted to.

if they are hit at midrange, or when their explosion is able to hit you, things are a little bit trickier. obviously, it would behoove (what a great word) you to not get hit by it, as you will invariably be put at a disadvantage. in this scenario, when the sheik uses her up-b, control stick forward (not roll) to snap up onto the ledge. if timed right, the sheik will be edgehogged if she goes directly for the edge, and it gives you much more time to react to her if she goes above the ledge or onto the stage. if she goes above, either wavedash back and edgehog, or bair or reverse knee her to dead. if she goes on the stage, shes in lag. f*** her up. if the little quick-get-up thing actually isnt too feasible at certain distances, then just roll on as soon as she starts her "third jump"

when shes really close to the edge she just has too many option to cover atm in my post

edit: basically 0room and i have said very similar things

 

[0Room]

edit: basically 0room and i have said very similar things

I was going to say
You basically said everything I just did but with the word behoove

 

[DuckPimp]

I was going to say
You basically said everything I just did but with the word behoove

:D

tiebreaker

 

[0Room]

I mean I appreciate the word
And the thought behind it

Just saying
I was first

 

[DuckPimp]

I mean I appreciate the word
And the thought behind it

Just saying
I was first

ok ok ok.

fine fine fine.

 

[Windrose]

The MOST DIFFICULT to punish option of sheik's recovery onto the stage is when she teleports onto a platform. It's difficult to reverse knee or stomp her in time. You can stomp her from below the platform if you do it right but it's hard. (easier on YS)

@Windrose
Characters with good horizontal recovery also tend to be real floaty, Uair / knee them to oblivion if you ever catch them doing something predictable (Uair is way safer, knee often just kills them outright or you get weak knee Uair)

Also always be on the lookout for laggy side-b moves ... Luigi and Pikachu are examples of characters with super laggy side-b moves that you can abuse with Falcon's super shorthop-across-half-of-Battlefield ability by just flying out there with a knee and killing them (every time Axe recovers doing these super bad side-b's I die a little inside because it's like watching a Luigi who can't even threaten to misfire =_=)

Even moves like pound can be punished if you call it, it's not nearly as bad as the moves I just mentioned but if you ever call them doing it toward the stage above ledge height you can almost always punish it

Just be more cavalier with reads when edgeguarding and don't be too afraid to jump out with knee because more often than not they can't get back before you

I actually have no idea how to cover M2's recovery but he's like a bad character so I'm not too worried

edgeguard vs floaties:
Okay, so wenbo establishes that we should punish laggy side b moves with knee. (i feel weary about kneeing pound because the move stays out for a long time and beats almost everything).

Do you guys feel moon walk is actually a decent option to use in this scenario so you can like go out and hit them with a bair or reverse uair? I don't know how else to go up and aggressively hit them while they're slowly floating back horizontally.

How about specifics on edge guarding samus? =( Nobody answered my previous question about whether or not ledge hop stomp was actually the best option. Samus has many different recovery options and I feel it's really tricky edge guarding her.

 

[_Rocky_]

read how she bomb jumps then hit her out of that

 

[Wenbobular]

Moonwalk takes forever to set up and Falcon doesn't need the boost in horizontal going backward because his best move for this situation is done facing forward

Once you see a Puff pound you hover just outside of their range and knee when the hitbox goes away, they can't really do anything about it if you positioned yourself correctly

The thing about that is you have to jump basically as they pound to do this, but if you call it wrong you can always just jump back

 

[Winston]

Yeah, Pound isn't exactly the best example for this since Jigglypuff players aren't usually gonna be pounding like idiots in places where you can hit them on reaction.

The jumping out to knee aggressively thing is really just good vs. Luigi, Pikachu, Falcon, Ganon, and sometimes Sopo. They have recovery B moves that are laggy and punishable on reaction.

jump out to uair high firefoxes as well!

 

[Windrose]

Ok ok. So what are other ways to edgeguard floaters? If puffs don't pound normally...

Also any more tips against peach and samus? Especially samus. I find it takes forever to kill her...

 

[Faithkeeper]

I was just talking to a samus about edgeguarding today. He advised me not to go off stage. It helped.

 

[0Room]

I was just talking to a samus about edgeguarding today. He advised me not to go off stage. It helped.

Who was it?
Just curious

As far as edgeguarding Samus and Peach
I just look at it as a waiting game
Be patient, look for the bair, repeat

It's not the most effective way to kill them, but it is the safest and the most applicable. There's nothing more important in this game than patience.

 

[Wenbobular]

If you don't go offstage vs Samus they can probably get around all your silly onstage options if they're good at sweetspotting grapple and up-b

Unless crush was right and Dair stuffs everything but I kinda doubt that

Still think Uairing them while they're bombing is the best strat but once again I've never really played a good Samus

 

[Walt]

What I do against Darrel and was doing against IHSB at G2 is depending on how low/high+close/far they're coming in you can usually figure out if they're going for grapple or up-B. If up-B then you can do like, ledgehop bair/dair or just try to knee the edge from the stage. But when you pick one of those that it is really safe for you. The most important thing I've found when edgeguarding samus is make sure that you maintain edge control, worry about that more than hitting her because edgeguarding her is often just gay so make sure you don't give anything up just to TRY to guard her.

When she grapples just predict the airdodge, then knee the grapple.

Darrel is way better than IHSB imo.

 

[Deleted member]

I was just talking to a samus about edgeguarding today. He advised me not to go off stage. It helped.

i usually fling myself out there with full-hop n-air and half the time it works and 45% of the time i'm still safe

the key is to try to hit him when hes going to bounce from the 2nd bomb

or if he is low relative to the stage, you can go tank his bombs intentionally so he can't grapple the side of the stage

if he is going to grapple the stage ideally you want to hold the edge right when the grapple hits so you pretty much have free reign to **** them as they pop themselves up

 

[Strong Badam]

i just fly out there and get hit by the first bomb so he gets ****ed, recover, then do it again.

 

[BairJew]

Marth > Falcon? seems to be my worst matchup.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just **** him when you get a hit <_<
Also kill him whenever he's offstage

Marth sucks

Sideb under Nair, stomp dash attacks, run around a lot

 

[Windrose]

Does samus have to be higher than the stage while bombing for the running out and tanking the bomb trick to work? a lot of the time sthe samus is below the stage and it seems like jumping into your depth/death just to tank her bomb.

Walt, what do you mean when you say bait the air dodge? you mean before she grapples?

 

[Deleted member]

its fine if you jump into the bomb when she is pretty low if you preserve your double jump

 

[DuckPimp]

Does samus have to be higher than the stage while bombing for the running out and tanking the bomb trick to work? a lot of the time sthe samus is below the stage and it seems like jumping into your depth/death just to tank her bomb.

Walt, what do you mean when you say bait the air dodge? you mean before she grapples?

like try and get her to airdodge and fall onto the stage with a bait. if theyve dodged a bair that way before, jump at them the same way, but dont do anything. when they airdodge, fall on them with a knee


marth is one of my favorite matchups. im not too **** at it though. do you have any specific questions after reading my writeup on it? ill always add things in

 

[X17the17th]

Question : does Sheik have any kind of Down Throw → Aerial (fair / nair) combo on Falcon on NTSC version ? Like at high % or something.

 

[0Room]

Dthrow->ftiltxinfinity->fair
Dthrow->dtilt->fair
Dthrow->regrab->uthrow->fair
Dthrow->fair
Dthrow->techchase->dsmash->edgeguard->fair

Fill in the blank
Dthrow-> blank -> fair

 

[X17the17th]

I mean it really links, there's nothing you can do to avoid tilts/fair/regrab after a dthrow (even with the proper DI) ?

Wow. That sounds depressing.

 

[Wenbobular]

0room is being silly ...

At super high % I still don't think they get a guaranteed Fair but I could be wrong, depends on how super high we're talking about but with DI away + Falcon being real fat it shouldn't combo

Falcon has no shine / bad spotdodge to get out of techchasing so hoping they're slow + buffer roll gets out out of slow reactions
Or hope they're bad at Dsmashing on reaction and miss the tech every so often

*shrug*
Not getting grabbed is obviously ideal though

 

[Van.]

Marth sucks

Finally, someone understands!

 

[Wenbobular]

Clearly you haven't been to the Marth boards, I'm not sure any of them believe they're playing a good character

Even though Marth sucks he's pretty good
...Sometimes
When he's bad he's like the worst though

 

[KirbyKaze]

Question : does Sheik have any kind of Down Throw → Aerial (fair / nair) combo on Falcon on NTSC version ? Like at high % or something.

If you DI anywhere but away (the way she's facing) then you can be aerial'd.

If you DI away she has to tech chase UNLESS she jabs (iirc) at low percent, F-tilts (if you're gonna go off the level it hits at low percent), and around 95%+ it combos to dash attack. But you can DI dash attack away and it won't combo to aerial.

 

[Van.]

Clearly you haven't been to the Marth boards, I'm not sure any of them believe they're playing a good character

Even though Marth sucks he's pretty good
...Sometimes
When he's bad he's like the worst though

i've been saying marth was ****ty since late '00

 

[0Room]

Marth's really ****ing good
As long as he hits you

 

[DuckPimp]

redirect marth being bad to http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306169

redirect how to **** marth and make him bad here.

 

[Deleted member]

melee is a game of control

in theory marth should always control the flow of the match

but/and when he doesnt he gets analed pretty hard