Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Game finally over! Raziek lynched, Town wins! Lego too!

[~ Gheb ~]

Kantrip with that blatant attempt to appeal to everybody...

Hammering as soon as Raziek goes into details with his reads.

 

[Orboknown]

And after having read every single last post in this game, THIS (and the post before it) is all you have to offer?

Someone vig this guy.

And this game is more like fire emblem then I originally thought. Gheb = Zen, Glyph = X1, I = myself, and town = fail.

I put out opinions on stuff i thought worth commenting on. Im not gonna write a novel just to appease you nich. I also really dont like how you repetitively call town incompetent. Ryker, Legolas,Gheb,RR, and Raz can all get the job done by themselves, let alone with others to work with.

On phone but that last bit about on you offering the deal and how it proves you're not scum is horrendous.

Also, I'm still with Ryker on the large. You refer to a lot of his case as flat out lies, but thats really not true at all. The only inaccuracy he might have had was the number of posts nick had before you voted him (something you were adamantly pointing out)... But even if he did count wrong it doesn't change anything. It just means he counted wrong.

You can say whatever the hell you want, but when you put a vote down on someone you're saying 'I want you dead'. Whether you mean it to put pressure or to be a legit wagon DOESN'T MATTER AT THE TIME. In fact, if you vote for someone and make it clear its just for pressure you have not accomplished anything, it'd be like putting a gun to someone's head after showing them its not loaded.

So from an outsider's point of view, you telling Nick to scum hunt and then voting him says 'you need to get off your *** or I'm going to kill you'. That is not a phrase that works though, since you've put them on the defensive already. BUT HEY its not like this has already been said, so I'm gunna leave it at that.
Okay.

Linking glyph more for these posts.

Did you read my posts? Because I've explained this.

One last time, the original vote on Nickel was to pressure him for scum hunting and to generate discussion.

This vote on Nickel is because how much later into D1, he still hasn't scum hunted (despite posting and claiming to be completely caught up), which means we can assume he's not going to do it any time soon. At least with Rajam/Red Ryu/etc they might give us something once they catch up (which they'll be able to do during N1).

Also, if you assume I'm town (which will become apparent after my flip if not sooner), doesn't his vote on me look like scum slipping onto an easy wagon?

You assume the worst on everyone nick. I can post maybe...4 days out of the week for an extended period of time if im lucky. I do read the thread in between when i have 10-20 minutes between class.

And as to why I'm so negative about this town, it's pretty much because I don't trust any player in this town to be competent at this point.

Noone?not gheb, not xonar or swords, not ryker(who is good when he wants to get the job done) or Red Ryu?

What do you expect, praise for lynching me? Prove me wrong and lynch scum D2 onwards, and I'll give you an apology and all the praise you want come post game.

Not liking this.

Most of this reasoning makes little sense.

I don't know what to make of it. Qualifiers all over the posts. 'I guess', 'for now'. Echoing Ryker's frustration with reading crapshoots.

Xonar said no nulls. The ones with qualifiers would have been nulls except i wasn't to post nulls without reasoning.So seph(2 posts at the time) was my null.

FoS: NickelbackR0cks

Nickel why didn't you vote Glyph here when he was attacking people for being useless?

Because i found it scummy doesn't mean i found him to be scum yet.And glyph is looking better in my eyes as of now.
@Gheb The only idea i would have for a nich scummate would be kantrip's slot. Tblock and nick went hand in hand early this game, and kantrip was trying to put nich in a good light when he entered. As for on a town flip, i would say ryker for beating the life out of nich, except I don't think scum ryker would pull that huge a case just to get nich lynched

 

[Orboknown]

EBWOP
Liking glyph more for these posts.*

 

[Nicholas1024]

1.) One inactive game? When was the last game anyone here saw Seph complete? Raise your hand if you remember one.

2.) That has NEVER been your logical process.

3.) I don't give a **** that he's scummy. The thing is, you've picked him out for no reason when there's three or four inactives I'd kill over him.

Not to mention that your scum flip clears him.

1. Haven't played with him, so I wouldn't know.

2. Whatever, Ryker.

3. Because being inactive is definitely a scum tell in and of itself. Protip, Ryker: REAL LIFE HAPPENS. If Seph IS always inactive like you're claiming, that means that his inactivity now isn't a scum tell at all and you should be pushing for his replacement instead of his death.

And honestly, I don't see how a scum flip on my end would clear him, considering how late my push on him and his vote on my wagon were. Still, my town flip should incriminate him.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Still, my town flip should incriminate him.

That would require anyone in this game to be buying into any of your terrible reads.

Thank you for flying Air Dumb ****. This has been your hostess Nich. Have a great evening!

Please, jump out without a parachute.

 

[Nicholas1024]

That would require anyone in this game to be buying into any of your terrible reads.

Thank you for flying Air Dumb ****. This has been your hostess Nich. Have a great evening!

Please, jump out without a parachute.

Stuff like this is why part of me hopes Ryker is somehow town, so I get to chew him out for being an idiot on a cosmic scale come post game.

It's like he's worried people might listen to me once I flip town.

 

[Orboknown]

More of ryker and Nich bickering at each other with Nich on death's bed.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

More of ryker and Nich bickering at each other with Nich on death's bed.

And let the record show that I was enjoying myself.

 

[Orboknown]

I never said you weren't, but nich calling you an idiot and you saying he needs to die does not progress this game.Gheb or someone needs to hammer already

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alright. So this case is going to be summed up in five major points: Nich's avoidance of issues that may cause him to be read as scum, his limitless well of AtE and ad hominen used for manipulative purposes, his repeated doubling back on his intention with regard to his initial Nickelback push, his obnoxiously scummy voting pattern, and the way he attempted to use self-meta to set himself up in a position to freely act in an anti-town manner. I'm going to attempt to put it in black and white the reasons why Nich is scum. This will mean slicing through his WIFOM to reach his intentions. Without further ado, let's go to point one.

Dodging A Bullet:

As the image suggests, Nich has spent this game bending over backwards to avoid answering for uncomfortable issues. Here's a few examples:

[collapse=Gheb vs. Nich]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume that he has sub-par intelligence and misunderstood, but here Gheb comes out and corrects him. This is Nich's response:



I'll be coming back to this post a LOT over the course of this case, but for now, let's look specifically here:



Excuse me, what? The point isn't to defend Nickel. It's incredibly obvious by Gheb's post that the point is to attack Nich for his terrible reasoning for a wagon on a player in his second game. Nickel hasn't even played a game as town yet. He ignores everything that comes after the part of Gheb's post in brackets and he even misconstrues that as a defense of Nickel rather than the accusation of selective scum hunting that it was.

For context, here's Gheb's reply in #179. I'm going to cut out the relevant part.



Also for reference so that he can't call strawman, here is Nich's response in #193



Oh boy. This is just full of deflection.

"Eh, true enough, but irrelevant."

WHAT? Of course it's relevant. It's selective scum hunting. The reasoning he posted is full of holes too. He claims that Nickel had been posting frequently at the time. When Nich first voted, Nickel had 3 posts. This has been brought up first by Gova, and then by myself. That reasoning isn't going to cut it.

The next quote you address, you once more dodge Gheb's point and instead turn it around venomously accusing him of defending a player and implying malicious intent. You assume you're completely in the right and don't even look at the circumstances.

Nich chose a player who was just getting his feet under himself in the game. He's coming off of his first game ever and in that game he was scum. There were multiple other players to choose from, many of which had given EVEN LESS THAN NICKEL! Yet here, instead of responding to the explanation Gheb provided, he jumped on Gheb as scum for questioning his motives.

In the final part of the above quote, Nich seriously tries to put Gheb off by saying "If I hadn't done the thing you found scummy, you wouldn't be onto me doing the thing I find scummy and most of this wouldn't exist. Since the game moved forward because I looked terrible, that obviously means I was acting in a pro-town manner."

Seriously, go to hell, Nich.[/collapse]

[collapse=Ryker vs. Nich]Ah, it begins. My fun time with Nich. Why, I remember the very first time he avoided my post. It all started with my #178. You see that, nice and pointed. Even includes a question posed directly at him. You know what kind of response I get? Zilch.

His next post is his #193[/url and you can read on from there and see that he never responds.

Next you've got where I hit the ground running. I posted a lot of information concerning Nich. My [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14060481&postcount=280]#280, #284, #285, #286, #287, #288, #295, #298, and #299 all concern him.

Here's his response:



See that promise at the bottom? He NEVER gets to that more detailed response. And as you can see in comparing them, he ignores MULTIPLE POSTS and lumps them all together in this reply.

Here's my answer:



This is the first of MULTIPLE TIMES THAT I CHALLENGE HIM TO SHOW THE STRAWMAN! He never shows where I take things out of context.

I would quote his #307, but his liberal use of quotes would neuter it.

My response is in the next post and it's the Yankee Doodle parody that he VEHEMENTLY DENIES HAS ANY SEED OF A POINT TO IT! He refuses to expand on it, but let's break it down seeing as it is a reply to 307.

Point 1.) Dodging the point with regards to Gheb which is outlined in the first collapse box.

Point 2.) Shows that the three unique points that he summarized in his #307 were lumped together and discarded without being responded to.

Point 3.) I call his bluff saying he's been a major contributor to scum hunting. He does nothing to address it and that was a painfully obvious call-out that he ignored.

Point 4.) I point out how he goes back and forth on his original intention with the push on Orbo as it serves his interests.

Point 5.) Even the chorus points something out. EVERYTHING he puts out there is spun to hell and he drops WIFOM everywhere between his AtE, his insults, and his self-meta. It's disgusting.

This is his response to calling him on his OMGUS.





Here I, yet again, challenge him to point out where I've been strawmanning him.



Here again he changes the subject and doesn't do as I requested.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Legolas vs. Nich]Here's Lego's #329 where he expresses his issue with Nich.

Here is Nich's response:



That's right. NO RESPONSE TO ACCUSATIONS WHATSOEVER! Just proceeds to threaten anyone who takes issue with him.

Here's Lego's #331 and the following posts. Go ahead and read for yourself. Nich proceeds to continue the conversation, but never covers the accusations.

He ends it by saying "Right..." and changing the subject to Sworddancer's catch-up post.[/collapse]

Over and over and over he avoids the issues that might cause him trouble. He's been doing it the entire game and attacking ANYONE who has expressed an issue with him. There are also small areas where he's on Gova in similar fashion, but I'm not rereading a fourth time for this point.

This point alone should be enough to get him lynched, but I've got four more coming.

Nich, you're going to look like Hiroshima in September of 1945 by the time I'm done with you.

I fully agree with this.

Nich never bothered to answer any sort of repose to these posts and made a clear, I promise to do things but then he falter it off while going off to something else. While I shouldn't be one to talk, I do not like this when he was doing it actively.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

WIFOM and Nich:

Our good buddy Nich likes WIFOM. He really can't get enough of the stuff. He's constantly using it to affect how he's perceived. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to read through the game and point out everywhere that Nich uses WIFOM for a manipulative purpose. It will be categorized into another three kinds with the third to be elaborated on in a later point.




Nich like's to use two forms of WIFOM, primarily. AtE is the first. He likes to put out these little calls for help that let him be perceived in a town light without actually doing anything to deserve it.

[collapse=AtE]

Throughout this post he's throwing out soft little, "Oh poor me"s. It's disgusting. Then his little namesearch bait is enough to make me want to vomit.



Here we go. The meat of his AtE, the Dayvig claim. Keep in mind that he claims to have thought it was fake the entire time.

Look at him playing to Glyph's ego. He's applauding the play that involved shooting him in the head. Sure, Nich, sure.



There's some more. Pleading that I not be listened to.



This entire post is one giant AtE. He's trying to play the part of the slain townie for the free brownie points. Even the insults aimed at me are made for the benefit of everyone else so that they will look back and see "how badly Ryker played."



Read above post. Aiming hard to be seen as the townie who died a valiant death.



And here's the admission. He admits that he didn't think the shot was real which means all those posts he put up before were an act put on to present himself in a certain light. There's some legitimate ad hominen in this post, but I'm not going to link it again in the second box.



This piece of ****. Oh my God. His only motive in posting this is to have town believe that he knows his alignment so he's perfectly willing to make a bet like this.

Also note that this bet he made doesn't take into account the possibility that I could be scum.



Take an acting class.



And here is the ADMISSION that he's acting.


[/collapse]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the second form of WIFOM commonly used by Nich. It's a subset of AtE, but I felt it deserved it's own section and you won't find these posts in the first collapse box. Nich loves to use Ad Homenin to try and discredit those who call attention to the problems in his play.

[collapse=Ad Homenin]

There's sample one. All three of the bolded sections contain Ad Homenin. This isn't the first appearence, but it's the easiest to nail down so far. Most of it is simply the air he puts on.



All this post does is attempt to undermine me with insults.



Simple pot shot. Becomes a recurring theme.



See what I mean?



Again.



This is the post where he ignored about 4-5 points. I guess he thinks some good ole fashion ad hominen will make up for it.



Don't even have to bold anything in this one.



Even the quotation marks around response.



Jeez Nich, my feelings are hurt.[/collapse]

I didn't read this thread throughly, but...bleck, this is disgusting. I thought J was the king of AtE but it looks like we got a new crown for king of AtE.

Nich this is gross, how can you play to people like this so commonly over and over again? These are blantant appeals to get off his *** and get at Ryker.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Stepping Back Whenever Convenient:

Alright, at this point, we all know Nich has claimed that he never intended for the Nickel wagon to be taken seriously. He knew it was a trumped up charge and claimed that he only started as a means to get reactions from the playerlist. However, for some reason, he continues to defend that wagon both before and after that claim of intention.

Here's the first post that he outright states that he had an alternative motive. This is from his #157.



And here is his grimy as **** #193. This is the part I want us to focus on:



So he's talking about how his motive was always simply to start discussion rather than do anything with the wagon.

Why then, does he do the following?

#176 - Accuses Gheb for being scum for calling him out on what he says he already knew was a bad case.
#307 - Bottom of the first collapse box. Defending the push on Nickel, not as a means of generating content, but on it's merit alone.
#343 - The big one. The entirety of this post is him defending T-Block's push on Nickelback. He even says it would be hypocritical of him to push T-Block on those grounds. Thing is though, he claimed that he was only on that wagon in order to generate discussion, so why is he giving T-Block a pass when he has made no such motive clear. Furthermore, he's STILL DEFENDING THE MERITS OF THE PUSH ITSELF! He picks and chooses his reason for pushing Nickel as it suits him. It changes whenever he needs it to.

Defiantly links Kantrip with his defense of Nich and how they both when T-Block was here coordinated a lynch on Nickle.

100% support Kantrip lynch tomorrow.

BS back off when they both got called out on the poor reasoning to jump on.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A Vote From Nich is a Vote From Scum:

Nich has thrown three votes this game and they are all three INCREDIBLY grimy.

Here's the first one, ironically post #66.



Now. Let's look at this vote. Of course later, he claims it was only to generate discussion, but let's look at his target.

He picked Nickelback.

This man has played one game. It was a newbie where he was scum. The vote is placed on this guy for a lack of content when half the cast hadn't done jack **** and the man in question only had three posts, none of which would lead people to believe that he wouldn't be contributing down the line. In fact, from reading them, I gathered that he was trying to figure out what was going on and would actually contribute if left to his own devices as opposed to a player like Seph or Rajam that hasn't done jack **** even at this stage.

Here are Nickelback's posts.

#5 - Pregame banter.
#34 - RVS vote.
#44 - Examines set-up discussion. Weighs in. At least tries to do something else.

From that point forward, he was under pressure and forced to act off of it. None of those posts should lead Nich or T-Block to think that vote was warranted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's Nich's second vote from his #157.



That is complete and total OMGUS. He snaps at the first person to pressure him for a vote that I just outlined was unjustified and then tries to use some self-meta WIFOM bull**** to clear it. He even goes forward to try and justify it by saying that "he's been watching a lot of OS play."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This brings us to his third vote. One for me in his #370.



Oh boy is this fun. First off, let's note that he later says he had made up his mind from the moment Glyph claimed Day Vig. However, it took him an hour and a half to "remember" that he was going to vote me.

Now, let's look back at his #307. In the second collapse box he claims that he hasn't figured out who is scum yet.

What happened in that 24 hour period between the post where he was unsure and the post where he votes me? I know what the deciding factor was since he never placed his finger on it. It was Gheb voting T-Block and claiming that I needed more examination. CONVENIENTLY, Gheb goes from being his biggest scum read to being one of Nich's two strongest town reads after that as well. He professed this while his vote was still on Gheb until he finally moved it to me after he remembered.

Yeah, no thanks Nich.

These votes suck.

Te first one is an obvious backpedaling, the second is dumb because he puts in on Gheb for making a legit call out on the first vote, and the last one is again linked to the ones before because of his intial vote.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Rajam 2.0 up in here.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The Problem With Self-Meta:

Oh boy, this one is probably my second favorite after the one you get to see last.

Nich loves his self-meta, but what does he use it to do? The answer, to set himself up in a position where he is able to play in an anti-town manner and not take heat for it.

Anyone remember this?



Or maybe this?







Wow, aren't these two posts just wonderful. They're all we'll be needing for this point, so let's wrap this up quick.

Look what Nich is saying. Seriously, read it again since I'm pretty sure you're mind is already trying to block the painful memory? Doesn't it just make your eyes bleed?

He's trying to say that he has a history of tunneling and that it should be excused since he's done it before. He's seriously trying to write himself a free pass to tunnel the balls out of this game.

Now look again at the second quote.

He is seriously trying to self-meta that he wouldn't act as he has in this game with the paragraph about doing something highly visible. The very fact that he posted that means he's aware that scum can do it just as easily because scum wouldn't do it. It's elementary WIFOM and that's what he's using to defend himself.

He goes on to discourage the use of Occam's Razor and say that we should assume convoluted motives from him, but let's look at what he stands to gain from the explanation in question:

Nich votes Nickel on overblown points to start discussion.

Pros:

>Can generate discussion.

Cons:

>Puts Nickel on the defensive and stunts his output.
>Runs the risk of Nickel saying something stupid as either alignment.
>Risks a Nickel mislynch.
>Risks being called out on his overblown points. Possibly leading to getting yourself lynched.

Feel free to double check that risk-reward ratio, but that does not ring up as town motive if you ask me.






So no, Nich, your WIFOM defense will not stand in my court. Case closed.

I don't like the self meta in this case because it looks like a blatant cop out to his earlier play on Nickle.

Nothing much I can say here on this point.

 

[Orboknown]

Rajam 2.0 up in here.

at least it's more relevant than what rajam is barreling through

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

BONUS: Nich and Meta Information:

So I told you I stumbled upon something incredible, right? Well look at this. I was checking the "Who Posted" List to get specific posts from Nich and I accidentally went to his profile instead of his list of posts. I noticed a conversation he was having with J on it, so I checked it out.

Note: All of this took place after he voted me.

He posted on J's wall:



Followed by a post from J being nice and responding humoring Nich without insulting me.

Nich posts once more saying:






This is the second time I've seen Nich talking in a way that implies that he knows I'm not scum. The first being where he offered me that deal concerning his and T-Block's alignments without taking into account that I could be scum.

Essentially, Nich is attempting to push a lynch on me despite the fact that he thinks I'm town.

No thanks Nich, you can burn.

I disagree on this.

This is out of game talk and is also refereed to in another thread. This is a reach.

Nothing he said clarifies that he knows you are town since there is another place that hints it could be the result of something else.

 

[Inferno3044]

I would be inclined to take a chance on Nich if we could guarantee a successful investigate, but unfortunately not everyone else thinks that.

Would anybody allow Nich to live if he could successfully investigate?

 

[Orboknown]

he would probably end up investigating me or ryker, showing im town and whatever ryker is(seemingly town to me). then he would just go after whichever one he didn't investigate.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I would be inclined to take a chance on Nich if we could guarantee a successful investigate, but unfortunately not everyone else thinks that.

Would anybody allow Nich to live if he could successfully investigate?

Why?

Let's assume we have a way to guarantee that Nich gets an uninterfered action. You tell me what we do in that case. What is the likely scenario for today, tonight, tomorrow, and tomorrow night?

 

[Inferno3044]

Assuming we believe him, we have a cop clear/guilty on someone tomorrow which is always helpful. Today we would probably have to end up lynching an inactive or maybe Kantrip. I don't even know who Seph is and I tend to forget that he is in the game. Rajam is going to play catch up the entire game and every time he posts I want him to die. Tonight obviously we would need a way to protect him but other than that we get an investigation. Tomorrow night, not really sure.

Have class. Bbl

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Really, sooooooooo we don't ever kill Nich according to your plan.

Interesting. I'll take that under advisement, but in the meantime...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Those things hurt.

I can't take him being a cop seriously either with how he handled himself. His play is too bad to make me believe it along with what he is asking to do to confirm it.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Legos are painful, yeah.

Red Ryu, did you actually read my reply before judging me?

 

[Overswarm]

Ryker - Red Ryu, Rajam,
Nicholas1024- Legolas, Ryker, NickelbackR0cks, Glyph, Gova, MOD
Rajam - Raziek,
Legolas - MOD
Kantrip - Gheb, Inferno3044,
NickelbackRocks- Nicholas1024,

Not voting: Seph, Kantrip,

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is February 17th at 3:00 PM EST

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Raziek you are making me so buttfrusterated by not posting, everyone's waiting on you at this point.

 

[Raziek]

Alright, alright. Let me dig through Gova's posts for the ones that bother me.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Raziek you are making me so buttfrusterated by not posting, everyone's waiting on you at this point.

No, seriously. Stop playing Yomi with me.

 

[Inferno3044]

Really, sooooooooo we don't ever kill Nich according to your plan.

Interesting. I'll take that under advisement, but in the meantime...

I never said he couldn't be lynched. My point is that we have him use a successful investigation and he tells us it. From that point on we can decide to either kill him let him live. On the other hand, I really don't see that happening and Nich is probably going to end up dying today.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Isn't it less than 1 hour until deadline now? I'm ready to hammer, just waiting for Raz to say stuff.

 

[Orboknown]

unfortunately, it is the 16th over here. deadline is tomorrow.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Dude. We're not letting him live in any scenario. He dies. The question you're asking is when.

You're also asking for a vague claim to help Nich from a role we don't know exists. OR are you asking that we take it on blind faith that such a role exists?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh wow, I thought deadline was today but I confused it with Walgreens. Nvm then.

 

[Raziek]

Ok, the big thing that bugs me about Gova is he doesn't take any definitive stances.

His initial stance on Ryker vs. Nich is completely non-commital. Offers nothing on Glyph's Dayvig gambit, either.

Honestly, the Ryker v Nich thing is just confusing me. There are some points I can see as a call out but other points just strike me as a clash of mafia ideologies and then getting carried away from there.

Skeptical of the daykill; gambit or not. I don't feel like it accomplished anything other than some free accusatory material by Glyph forcing his perception of how a townie would react to be vigged. Not saying it can't be true in this case but sometimes I have trouble buying into "as town he would have done this" or as "scum he would have done this.

You know what Gova, let's play a game. Since this half-stance isn't doing anyone any good.

In-depth reasoning for your reads on both Nich and myself. What has each player done to help you reach the current read you have?

When DIRECTLY questioned by Ryker for exactly that reason, he goes and gives this post:

I have a town read on you for now. The biggest thing here is that you're clearly motivated to play this game which I've only seen you do as town. Most of the games you were scum you just coasted and lurked to victory and let town take themselves apart. I mean you could be motivated to play as scum but I think it's unlikely given your history. Things you have called Nich out such as exaggeration/contradiction things I can agree with whereas other things such as the initial-bring-the-game-out-of-RVS-accusation. I think that only serves as a purpose to get reads and get opinions for other though I do understand how it could be used as a fallback for scum of the accusation backfires. There's no way to tell which would be the case for that point.

As for Nich, my read is conflicted because I have no scum-play of his to compare too other than the time he replaced into FF9 but I'm not sure how accurately depict his scum play seeing as how he was told to just coast/lurk. The fact that I also had to ask multiple times whether or not he agreed with T-Blocks accusation also didn't sit well with me. I find it that when you have to keep rephrasing/asking questions is a slight indication that someone is scum or at least hiding somerthing. At this point I'm not opposed to his lynch and need to be on it but there's nothing I can say for certain that makes me go "yeah this guy is definitely scum."

This post is LOADED with qualifiers, which I'm going to underline, since I can't use red.

Despite being asked to take a direct stance, he dances around the issue entirely, and the grand majority of his reasoning is based solely on meta. Meta which has recently proven inaccurate. Ryker's laziness rarely dictates his alignment. I've seen him lazy as scum, but just recently he's been lazyTown in Fire & Lightning, and Adventure Time.

The meta reasoning is weak. Fortunately for my TownGlyph read, Glyph picked up on this as well:

Why is that whole post pretty much based around meta? Meta that I largely disagree with btw, if reading Ryker was as easy as saying 'look he is playing this time' he wouldn't win games.

Well, until we get flips and stuff that's all I have to go on. Either way, I consider it a pretty significant factor at least wrt Ryker.

This is again, a bit of a cop-out here. It's an excuse to avoid taking stances, given that if he has a Town read, he needs to support it, less he be able to double back on it later since it was almost entirely meta.

@Gheb, it seems like everyone is ok with Nich dying. What do you think about that considering you're known for the logic that is "if everyone wants someone dead that someone is most likely town logic?" Why is that not the case here?

While I like this question, it never panned out because Nich claimed right after and it got lost in the mess.

No clue as to who his scummates would be but if he flips town I will be looking back and checking to see who endorsed Ryker's case without really explaining why and having no reasons of their own to vote him. I can't remember anyone's stance on Nich that doesn't have something to do with Ryker's case at this point so I figure scum must be hiding behind the generalities of just agreeing with a giant case. This includes you, Legolas, Raziek, Glyph, and Inferno, RR and Nickel I think... I haven't checked back to see if you guys highlighted some stuff you agreed with and I've completely forgotten whether or you guys had independent reasoning as to why Nich was scum. Not to mention regardless of flip, I still have to look into Kantrip, Seph, RR, Nickel, and Inferno because there's just not much to go on.

I just have to say this is related to my read on Ryker from earlier which you expressed distaste for because it was meta. Ryker being motivated to play is more than likely a town tell which I said earlier so I don't see how you can dislike my reason when you're using this as a reason.

First major problem here is he straight up avoids committing to any other scumreads.

Second major problem, his "people to look into" list is NINE players. That's almost 3/4's of the game. He's leaving his options completely open in either scenario, with no committal whatsoever, and no reasoning provided.

Are you talking about this opinion? Because this is what my opinion on the wagon is. I'm not certain whether or not he is scum but I would lean more towards the scum side as seen below. If you want it in black and white then yes I would think he is scum but that doesn't reflect my feelings on this issue and it's rarely ever that simple.

It depends.

Yeah, that's why there's a qualifier saying that I'm going to look into them if they just agreed with Ryker's case AND have no independent reasoning of their own. Since you have this I guess it doesn't concern you. Not that it matters anyways because I'm still going check regardless.

Again, more of the same.

So yeah, that's why Gova bothers me. He's been here, he's been posting, but he's only got 28, and he hasn't actually taken a SINGLE CONCRETE STANCE this whole game.

 

[Raziek]

Are there any other reads you want to hear from me about, Gheb? If not, we can hammer whenever.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's good enough, I hope you'll make more input like that in the coming Days.

Unvote Vote Nicholas

 

[Raziek]

Come on bro, you forgot to include an obnoxiously large hammer-related image.

Spoiler

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Hey Nich!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Unvote Vote Nicholas

HAMMAH