• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


  • Total voters
    3,010
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Eddie G

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
9,123
Location
Cleveland, OH
NNID
neohmarth216
As stated before some ppl like me who hate playing as MK don't want him banned, but onward.


Anti-ban ppl just keep saying stop crying well what are we supposed to tell you, that MK isn't the best character in the game, well I mean he is someone is going to be the best that how it rolls.

Im more worried about what will happen after we ban MK because personally I fear a snake domination far more than an MK one, but overall its just more frusteration because in all seriousness the no MK tourny results look shockingly similar to the ones with MK, with just a good bit more marth in the mix, and a tad more olimar(the 2 characters who MK 1/2 way invalidates because he is there main roadblock).

I guess what Im trying to say is for the most part MK beats ppl he doesn't invalidate them nearly as much as snake/falco/ddd/other top tiers do.
Snake will not dominate. He has counters and not every Snake player out there is like Ally. People need to keep this in mind when bringing up points about characters.

Sure there may only be a handful of MK mains that prosper at the highest levels of play (M2K, Dojo, etc.), but just as the Pro-ban side brought up: what about the Mid-level of play (which is arguably the largest component of the community)?

I'm a Peach main, and I sub Marth to help cover my tougher matchups, but I do know how to play the MK matchup with Peach as best as I possibly can. I went 1-2 with Overswarm that last time I encountered him, and Overswarm is the player that clearly dominates Ohio's mid-level of play here that I am personally involved in. Want to know where that one win came from? I beat his Snake with Peach, and only managed to get his MK to one stock and low percent. Then he played defensively with MK, and just as the pro-ban side has pointed out: that can and will shut down a lot of characters' options/viability.

My point: Mid-level play should be considered as much as, if not more than top-level play when bringing up points of a character's dominance. Sure there are the small handful of players who can deal with the MK matchup, but what about the other bulk of players who shine with their characters all around the board but get shut down when crossed with a MK of equal or greater skill? The Over-centralization issue is real, anti-ban side. Admit it already.
 

Zephil

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
945
Location
Panama, Panama
Ally is a *human* being with skills. So am I, so are you. Saying he is the exception makes no sense unless he's not human.
... don´t try to escape from reality... Ally is NOT human... k jk...

more than 20 pages of pure ****... this is worse than a social board...
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
what bengals said + 1 more thing.
STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE that use mk. we're discussing mk, not the people that use him. we need better evidence than "get better". i could just as easily say pick another character and get over mk.
mk is broken. plain and simple. the reason why he doesn't always place 1st in tournaments because there is someone that uses another character better than the mk user. we need to talk about fighting against mk on a even level.
if 2 people play at the same skill level and player 1 uses mk player 1 will always win. remember i said same skill level. i want to make that clear so i don't get miss quoted.
Except that isn't true. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Why all the futile argument. Metaknight is too good. Anyone can see this. Even if he isn't invincible, he makes the game much more stale. Ban him.
 

CRASHiC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
7,266
Location
Haiti Gonna Hait
Except that isn't true. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.
Except Fiction proved it true.

This is from fiction-


MK IS BROKEN

I will begin by defining the term “broken.” While it may be used differently by numerous forums and communities, I’m going to make up a special definition simply for this argument.

Broken: A word used to describe an element in a video game that does belong. It is above the level of the game and its mechanics and renders the game virtually uncompetitive without the use of said element.

My argument is that the character Meta Knight (referred to from now on as “MK”) is broken and should not be allowed in tournaments or competitive Brawl.

Let’s start with his moveset. Most movesets, no matter how good they are, have downsides. Holes or weaknesses in a characters moveset lead to their downfall, as an enemy can exploit these weaknesses to their advantage. Certain characters can exploit the weaknesses in other characters movesets better than others, which is where bad matchups come along (which is why MK has no bad matchups). I’ll now go through the properties of MK’s moveset, and show why his moves were designed with no holes, no flaws, nothing to abuse. With the show of this ample evidence, I think it is provable that MK’s moveset is not in line with the rest of the cast, and he does not belong as a character in competitive play.

1. His sword moves are made of transcendent priority
-Transcendent priority means that they will not clash with anything. They have the priority that the Star Fox characters’ lasers have.
-The only moves that MK has that can clash are glide attack, dash attack, and his special moves.
2. Aerials (Oh boy)
Up aerial
-It comes out in 2 frames
-Lasts only 13 frames
-Invincibility on airdodges lasts around 25 frames for most characters, and an entire airdodge lasts from 39 to 49 frames depending on the character. Thus it is impossible to get away from metaknight’s u-air by airdodging. He can do an up air and have at least 10-20 frames to do whatever he wants (if the opponent dodges frame-perfectly)
-Invincibility on spotdodges lasts around 18 frames for most characters, and the entire animation lasts from 22 to 32 frames depending on the character. Even with a frame perfect spotdodge MK has time to throw in another uair or an aerial of his choosing before you can move again.
-Allows for ridiculous combinations of the aerial along with others within a short period of time (such as a short hop).
-At low percents it has ridiculous hitstun and can combo most characters to around 50 percent; and is virtually unDIable for some reason and the MK can chase DI quite easily from it.
-Has enough shieldstun that if MK is repeatedly u-airing someone who is on a platform, they cannot let their shield up. Their only options are to spotdodge or roll, which are both easily punishable by a good MK.
-Hits in nearly a full semi-circle above MK’s head, the far ends hitting out more horizontally. The edges have more horizontal range than the first two hits of MK’s bair.
Neutral Aerial
-Is a kill move, and it comes out in only 3 frames.
-Has multiple hitboxes, allowing it to combo with the weak hit, or hit both hitboxes for around 20 damage.
-Can do two in a single short hop.
-Weak hit can combo into a grounded lock combo.
Down Aerial
-Because of transcendent priority combined with MK’s 5 mid-air jumps makes this the best aircamping move in the game.
-The edges on both the front and back of the hit have semi-spike properties.
-Can be used offstage with MK’s multiple jumps to perfectly edgeguard a large portion of the cast.
Back Aerial
-Multi-hit move that can be easily autocancelled out of a short hop.
-Because of hitstun added into the first and second hits so that the third and final hit will deal its knockback, this move can be landed into the ground and easily combed into an ftilt, dtilt, or grab.
-If autocancelled correctly (not that difficult), an opponent has a shield advantage of only 3 frames. MK’s spotdodge invincibility frames activate on frame 2, giving the opponent 5 frames to hit/grab before the invincibility starts. Grabs take 6 frames to activate, and because of bairs massive range not many up b out of shields can retaliate against it. If you need to drop your shield before hitting MK (drop shield dash grab, etc.), he actually has a 4 frame ADVANTAGE. This means that he can roll away (his roll invincibility activates on frame 4) before you can even finish dropping your shield.
Forward Aerial
-Very fast if SH FF autocancelled.
-The tip of the third hit of the blade is a semi-spike, allowing for edgeguarding with a multi-hit move.
-Transcendent priority combined with its fast multi-hit properties allow it to be used defensively to cut through most, if not all approaches.
-If autocancelled correctly, the opponent has an 8 frame shield advantage, and a 1 frame shield drop advantage. Insert the numbers into the bair statistics above.
3. Ground Game
Down Tilt
-Comes out in 3 frames (1/20th of a second)
-Can be quickly repeated for combos or extra damage (lasts only 15 frames)
-Has a high probability to trip an opponent, comboing in almost any other move.
-Transcendent priority, combined with its long range and the fact that it inches MK forward, makes this his longest ranged move (excluding the third hit of ftilt)
-Can ground lock
Forward Tilt
-Great range, multi-hit, transcendent priority (the third hit has the same range as Marth’s tipper fsmash)
-Not much to say about this move, but it’s a great ground move that can be used for spacing and building damage very well.
-Can ground lock
-from the MK boards: “What happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current percent, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high percent.
Up Tilt
-Surprisingly strong kill move (Snake’s utilt kills MK on a battlefield platform at 98 with no DI, MK’s utilt kills MK on a battlefield platform at 107 with no DI)
-Has massive vertical range, covers direct aerial approaches well.
Jab
-Can build up damage and combo well against a wall.
-Surprising range in front of and above MK
-Can combo into a dsmash depending on DI/percent fairly consistently
-Can ground lock (switch up with dtilt and ftilt)
Forward Smash
-Some startup time, almost no ending lag
-Has an unnaturally large hitbox above, in front of, and even behind MK.
-Nearly unpunishable if used defensively, can be used to edgeguard well.
Down Smash
-Notoriously fast and powerful move (5 frames, high knockback)
-Downside is that it is easily punishable out of shield by most high tiers.
-Hits on both sides, if opponent is DIing badly both hits can combo.
Up Smash
-Definetely not the greatest move in the world.
-Medium knockback, can be used to pop the opponent up out of a run for combos.
Dash Attack
-One of MK’s few moves that actually clashes with other moves.
-MK speeds up on the ground while using it and it comes out in only 5 frames.
-Can literally combo into grabs and other moves at lower percents.


4. Specials
Down Special
-Infinite Dimensional Cape: I think everyone knows what this one is. While you think you may have banned it, it is easy to perform without anyone noticing and make a huge difference on the game.
-A little known fact is that you can tilt the cstick VERY slightly during IDC and it will still affect MK as much as a tapped cstick.
-When MK touches the ground, he gains a small distance on his DC, so a single tap (giving him about a character and a half of extra distance) could easily get him out of a bad situation without anyone noticing.
-Can be used to escape off the ledge onto the stage. Using small amounts of IDC helps a lot here.
-Invincible and invisible while recovering
-Can be used to refresh ledge invincibility faster than his aerial jump.
Side Special
-Incredibly high priority, eats up many moves.
-Has ridiculous vertical and horizontal range, better than most 3 jump character’s up b’s.
-Can edgecancel from its max length to any distance in between by tilting it up or down. This creates a quick, lagless recovery onto platforms.
-Can edgecancel backwards on ledges or platforms, giving more options for non-ledge-snap recoveries.
-If you hit someone halfway through the move you can carry them to the end of it to combo out of it.
-If MK times it right, it can outlast opponent’s invincibility frames on the ledge so that he will always recover.
Neutral Special (ah, the famous tornado)
-High priority, absorbs a high percentage of attacks and projectiles and even goes through some of the cast’s entire moveset.
-Does a lot of damage, and can rack it up quickly.
-Because of its high priority, and its ability to move quickly horizontally, it can be used on many characters more than once in a row to build extra damage.
-You can pressure shields with it and move away safely.
-Gains priority the more you press the b button
-If you end it at the right time, it has 29 frames of lag regardless of height. If you stop the nado at the right height you can land with 0 to very few lag frames on the ground.
-Goes through spotdodges, rolls, airdodges, because of its long lasting, giant hitbox and its ability to chase aerial movement.
-Doubles as an incredible horizontal recovery (with a decent vertical one as well).
Up Special
- Is a different move on the ground or in the air
-Comes out in 5 frames and is invincible frames 5-8, allowing it to avoid grabs if buffered at the same time as an opponent (say a ground release out of a grab)
-If timed right can cut through any approach in the game.
-Has almost no lag and is almost impossible to punish.
-If you cancel it the right distance above the ground you can jump out of his failed cancel animation (no lag from jumping off the ground).
-Aerially comes out very fast (frame 8) and has a powerful hitbox. If you are below or in front of MK at startup you will be semispiked forward, and if you are behind or above him you will be semispiked backwards. A plus to the backwards semispike is that MK can then simply glide back to the stage.
-Has numerous points to sweetspot the ledge making MK’s edgeguarding with this move ridiculous.
-Has crazy knockback at low percents.
-Can still hit opponents for an entire semi circle in front of MK.
-Puts MK into a second glide, allowing him to use multiple glides. Also sets him up higher in the air so that he can gain more momentum.
-You can land on the stage or a platform with the top of the shuttle loop to cancel it instantly. For some odd reason when you do this if you buffer another shuttle loop out of it, you get a another aerial shuttle loop, able to semispike nearby opponents.
6. Other Moves
Glide/Glide Attack
-MK has the second fastest glide in the game but the best control on where he goes.
-He can cancel the glide and fastfall it to have no lag from high glide points.
-He can gain massive positive height on his glide as long as he has space to glide a little lower.
-If he has no space to glide lower the glide adds to his airspeed and allows him to move quickly horizontally in the air.
-His glide attack actually clashes with other moves.
-Because of shuttle loop MK has two glides.
-His glide attack pops the opponent up with a lot of hitstun. It is very good for comboing at low percents and can lead into repeated uair combos on the entire cast.
-If he misses a cancel he has enough momentum that he will slide off platforms and ledges.
-If he doesn’t cancel and doesn’t ledge cancel, he lands in a self tech-chase position, like how Ness and Lucas can pk thunder themselves into the ground. This allows him for self created invincibility options not involving the ledge.






Summary, at perfect play, MK is unstoppable.
So, if top level play and reaching the height is the goal, then why discredit this as, people are human? as I have seen some anti-banners do.
Its either about the peak or the entire mountain. You can not have both arguments.
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Then you have a very shallow view of the situation.
Please elaborate. I think % of cash won is a very valid statistic for measuring game balance. If MK can't be shown to be imbalanced, then no ban. The other ban criteria are essentially of the form "because playing against MK is different and/or not fun." If those arguments work for you, then be my guest, but I think they are entirely too subjective and are just excuses to inject personal feeling into it.
 

P. O. F.

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
820
Location
2008 Melee Player
I just talked to someone from SBR.

I know how the results are going to work and if we will in fact, get a ban.

I like the SBR's way of doing it. It's pretty fair.
 

ZIO

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
10,884
Location
FREEDOM
We wouldn't know MK and the character he is without the people who played, and do play as him. They help show us what potential he's had up to this point.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Please elaborate. I think % of cash won is a very valid statistic for measuring game balance. If MK can't be shown to be imbalanced, then no ban. The other ban criteria are essentially of the form "because playing against MK is different and/or not fun." If those arguments work for you, then be my guest, but I think they are entirely too subjective and are just excuses to inject personal feeling into it.
Then it might be necessary to show 2nd place % of cash won, and then show the % of cash won when removing outliers.
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
In theorycraft, all best non-banned characters from all fighting games should always win.

But reality isn't too convenient for you is it.
 

CRASHiC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
7,266
Location
Haiti Gonna Hait
Please elaborate. I think % of cash won is a very valid statistic for measuring game balance. If MK can't be shown to be imbalanced, then no ban. The other ban criteria are essentially of the form "because playing against MK is different and/or not fun." If those arguments work for you, then be my guest, but I think they are entirely too subjective and are just excuses to inject personal feeling into it.
because Street Fighter has done the same thing.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972130&postcount=873
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
Wow Falcon, are you really using the fact that Lain beat M2K at Apex as a legit argument?

That same night, M2K ***** the ****ing **** out of Lain. He figured him out, he played hella gay, and he won easily.

Wow, is it just me or is the validity of these anti-ban arguments getting worse and worse as we go?
 

HRNUT (Honey Roasted)

Smash Master
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
3,087
Location
Orlando Florida
idk, its alot to take in, mk does make the game somewhat gay but i like the challenge of mk....he does help eliminate some matches for other characters harder matchups....i'll think about it...too many valid points from pro ban side
 

CRASHiC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
7,266
Location
Haiti Gonna Hait
In theorycraft, all best non-banned characters from all fighting games should always win.

But reality isn't too convenient for you is it.
But not to this extreme. He becomes untouchable when each move is used to perfection. Very few moves have any sort of weak point at all.
Again, read the entire fiction argument and you will see what I am talking about, instead of going off of your own theory craft.
Frame rate data is NOT theory craft.
 

Roxas M

Smash Master
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
3,068
Location
Zane - Texas(aka Hell)
Except that isn't true. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.
ummm....that's pretty obvious.
its a discussion. i'm discussing my opinion. you thought i was stating a true fact. so me anti-ban proof that actually means something and my opinion will change.
 

AnDaLe

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2009
Messages
2,373
Location
IL
if the consensus is over 7/10 for MK to be banned, then i'll agree
 

[FBC] ESAM

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
12,197
Location
Pika?
Please elaborate. I think % of cash won is a very valid statistic for measuring game balance. If MK can't be shown to be imbalanced, then no ban. The other ban criteria are essentially of the form "because playing against MK is different and/or not fun." If those arguments work for you, then be my guest, but I think they are entirely too subjective and are just excuses to inject personal feeling into it.
Again, remembering your last post, 30% of all the cash with ONE character out of THIRTY FIVE is ridiculous. Sure, he doesn't win all of it, but he clearly makes WAY MORE than ANY other single character.
 

DotHack

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
189
I just talked to someone from SBR.

I know how the results are going to work and if we will in fact, get a ban.

I like the SBR's way of doing it. It's pretty fair.
BTW YOU! I pm'd about those IOS files and you never replied. >.<

38 53 55 >_<
 

Falconv1.0

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
3,511
Location
Talking **** in Cali
Wow Falcon, are you really using the fact that Lain beat M2K at Apex as a legit argument?

That same night, M2K ***** the ****ing **** out of Lain. He figured him out, he played hella gay, and he won easily.

Wow, is it just me or is the validity of these anti-ban arguments getting worse and worse as we go?
I like how everyone misses the point so retardedly well.
 

link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
2,778
i can't think of a better way to say brawl is horribly designed fighter than to ban a character
not that i think mk will even be banned or that nintendo cares what sbr says.
to be brutally honest though smash ever since 64 was NEVER SUPPOSED to be a COMPETITIVE fighter, the fans just turned em into one.
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
3,389
Location
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
NNID
Nysyarc
3DS FC
1075-0983-2504
no way. Just get better
Just contribute something useful or gtfo.

I don't care what anyone says, MK mains have no real arguments against banning him. They just wait for pro-ban players to make a good point and then meticulously pick it apart with the stupidest little facts and tidbits. I haven't seen a single anti-ban argument that isn't just a poorly conceived counter to a pro-ban argument.

I can understand that you don't want to lose your best way to win money. But honestly, where does that leave the rest of us? Do you want every smash player to be forced to main MK just so we can win once in awhile? I main Ike. I like using Ike. When I fight a MK who knows what he's doing, I usually get two or three stocked because all he has to do is knock me off the stage and I'm done. Doesn't matter what Ike does, MK can gimp every recovery option he has.

Thus, because of MK, Ike is eliminated from tournaments. In my local tourneys I usually place top four, and I usually only lose to the single MK main in my town, who usually wins the tournament or places second (beaten by a Wario main who is more skilled than him, but who still loses to him at least half the time).

Monetary earnings is not enough to base a ban on. You can't say that just because only 30% of recent earnings have to gone to MK, he isn't freaking EVERYWHERE. And it will only get worse. If he isn't banned now, I promise you it will only get worse.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
I just talked to someone from SBR.

I know how the results are going to work and if we will in fact, get a ban.

I like the SBR's way of doing it. It's pretty fair.
Until you start tracking voting patterns and see who is voting what. Then it becomes pretty ********. >_>
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Then it might be necessary to show 2nd place % of cash won, and then show the % of cash won when removing outliers.
I'm not sure what you mean. If by "2nd place % of cash won" you mean Snake's % of cash won (assuming he's 2nd), I'd argue it doesn't really matter. It's not MK money vs Snake money that's important, it's MK money vs not MK money.
 

Roxas M

Smash Master
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
3,068
Location
Zane - Texas(aka Hell)
Except Fiction proved it true.

This is from fiction-


MK IS BROKEN

I will begin by defining the term “broken.” While it may be used differently by numerous forums and communities, I’m going to make up a special definition simply for this argument.

Broken: A word used to describe an element in a video game that does belong. It is above the level of the game and its mechanics and renders the game virtually uncompetitive without the use of said element.

My argument is that the character Meta Knight (referred to from now on as “MK”) is broken and should not be allowed in tournaments or competitive Brawl.

Let’s start with his moveset. Most movesets, no matter how good they are, have downsides. Holes or weaknesses in a characters moveset lead to their downfall, as an enemy can exploit these weaknesses to their advantage. Certain characters can exploit the weaknesses in other characters movesets better than others, which is where bad matchups come along (which is why MK has no bad matchups). I’ll now go through the properties of MK’s moveset, and show why his moves were designed with no holes, no flaws, nothing to abuse. With the show of this ample evidence, I think it is provable that MK’s moveset is not in line with the rest of the cast, and he does not belong as a character in competitive play.

1. His sword moves are made of transcendent priority
-Transcendent priority means that they will not clash with anything. They have the priority that the Star Fox characters’ lasers have.
-The only moves that MK has that can clash are glide attack, dash attack, and his special moves.
2. Aerials (Oh boy)
Up aerial
-It comes out in 2 frames
-Lasts only 13 frames
-Invincibility on airdodges lasts around 25 frames for most characters, and an entire airdodge lasts from 39 to 49 frames depending on the character. Thus it is impossible to get away from metaknight’s u-air by airdodging. He can do an up air and have at least 10-20 frames to do whatever he wants (if the opponent dodges frame-perfectly)
-Invincibility on spotdodges lasts around 18 frames for most characters, and the entire animation lasts from 22 to 32 frames depending on the character. Even with a frame perfect spotdodge MK has time to throw in another uair or an aerial of his choosing before you can move again.
-Allows for ridiculous combinations of the aerial along with others within a short period of time (such as a short hop).
-At low percents it has ridiculous hitstun and can combo most characters to around 50 percent; and is virtually unDIable for some reason and the MK can chase DI quite easily from it.
-Has enough shieldstun that if MK is repeatedly u-airing someone who is on a platform, they cannot let their shield up. Their only options are to spotdodge or roll, which are both easily punishable by a good MK.
-Hits in nearly a full semi-circle above MK’s head, the far ends hitting out more horizontally. The edges have more horizontal range than the first two hits of MK’s bair.
Neutral Aerial
-Is a kill move, and it comes out in only 3 frames.
-Has multiple hitboxes, allowing it to combo with the weak hit, or hit both hitboxes for around 20 damage.
-Can do two in a single short hop.
-Weak hit can combo into a grounded lock combo.
Down Aerial
-Because of transcendent priority combined with MK’s 5 mid-air jumps makes this the best aircamping move in the game.
-The edges on both the front and back of the hit have semi-spike properties.
-Can be used offstage with MK’s multiple jumps to perfectly edgeguard a large portion of the cast.
Back Aerial
-Multi-hit move that can be easily autocancelled out of a short hop.
-Because of hitstun added into the first and second hits so that the third and final hit will deal its knockback, this move can be landed into the ground and easily combed into an ftilt, dtilt, or grab.
-If autocancelled correctly (not that difficult), an opponent has a shield advantage of only 3 frames. MK’s spotdodge invincibility frames activate on frame 2, giving the opponent 5 frames to hit/grab before the invincibility starts. Grabs take 6 frames to activate, and because of bairs massive range not many up b out of shields can retaliate against it. If you need to drop your shield before hitting MK (drop shield dash grab, etc.), he actually has a 4 frame ADVANTAGE. This means that he can roll away (his roll invincibility activates on frame 4) before you can even finish dropping your shield.
Forward Aerial
-Very fast if SH FF autocancelled.
-The tip of the third hit of the blade is a semi-spike, allowing for edgeguarding with a multi-hit move.
-Transcendent priority combined with its fast multi-hit properties allow it to be used defensively to cut through most, if not all approaches.
-If autocancelled correctly, the opponent has an 8 frame shield advantage, and a 1 frame shield drop advantage. Insert the numbers into the bair statistics above.
3. Ground Game
Down Tilt
-Comes out in 3 frames (1/20th of a second)
-Can be quickly repeated for combos or extra damage (lasts only 15 frames)
-Has a high probability to trip an opponent, comboing in almost any other move.
-Transcendent priority, combined with its long range and the fact that it inches MK forward, makes this his longest ranged move (excluding the third hit of ftilt)
-Can ground lock
Forward Tilt
-Great range, multi-hit, transcendent priority (the third hit has the same range as Marth’s tipper fsmash)
-Not much to say about this move, but it’s a great ground move that can be used for spacing and building damage very well.
-Can ground lock
-from the MK boards: “What happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current percent, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high percent.
Up Tilt
-Surprisingly strong kill move (Snake’s utilt kills MK on a battlefield platform at 98 with no DI, MK’s utilt kills MK on a battlefield platform at 107 with no DI)
-Has massive vertical range, covers direct aerial approaches well.
Jab
-Can build up damage and combo well against a wall.
-Surprising range in front of and above MK
-Can combo into a dsmash depending on DI/percent fairly consistently
-Can ground lock (switch up with dtilt and ftilt)
Forward Smash
-Some startup time, almost no ending lag
-Has an unnaturally large hitbox above, in front of, and even behind MK.
-Nearly unpunishable if used defensively, can be used to edgeguard well.
Down Smash
-Notoriously fast and powerful move (5 frames, high knockback)
-Downside is that it is easily punishable out of shield by most high tiers.
-Hits on both sides, if opponent is DIing badly both hits can combo.
Up Smash
-Definetely not the greatest move in the world.
-Medium knockback, can be used to pop the opponent up out of a run for combos.
Dash Attack
-One of MK’s few moves that actually clashes with other moves.
-MK speeds up on the ground while using it and it comes out in only 5 frames.
-Can literally combo into grabs and other moves at lower percents.


4. Specials
Down Special
-Infinite Dimensional Cape: I think everyone knows what this one is. While you think you may have banned it, it is easy to perform without anyone noticing and make a huge difference on the game.
-A little known fact is that you can tilt the cstick VERY slightly during IDC and it will still affect MK as much as a tapped cstick.
-When MK touches the ground, he gains a small distance on his DC, so a single tap (giving him about a character and a half of extra distance) could easily get him out of a bad situation without anyone noticing.
-Can be used to escape off the ledge onto the stage. Using small amounts of IDC helps a lot here.
-Invincible and invisible while recovering
-Can be used to refresh ledge invincibility faster than his aerial jump.
Side Special
-Incredibly high priority, eats up many moves.
-Has ridiculous vertical and horizontal range, better than most 3 jump character’s up b’s.
-Can edgecancel from its max length to any distance in between by tilting it up or down. This creates a quick, lagless recovery onto platforms.
-Can edgecancel backwards on ledges or platforms, giving more options for non-ledge-snap recoveries.
-If you hit someone halfway through the move you can carry them to the end of it to combo out of it.
-If MK times it right, it can outlast opponent’s invincibility frames on the ledge so that he will always recover.
Neutral Special (ah, the famous tornado)
-High priority, absorbs a high percentage of attacks and projectiles and even goes through some of the cast’s entire moveset.
-Does a lot of damage, and can rack it up quickly.
-Because of its high priority, and its ability to move quickly horizontally, it can be used on many characters more than once in a row to build extra damage.
-You can pressure shields with it and move away safely.
-Gains priority the more you press the b button
-If you end it at the right time, it has 29 frames of lag regardless of height. If you stop the nado at the right height you can land with 0 to very few lag frames on the ground.
-Goes through spotdodges, rolls, airdodges, because of its long lasting, giant hitbox and its ability to chase aerial movement.
-Doubles as an incredible horizontal recovery (with a decent vertical one as well).
Up Special
- Is a different move on the ground or in the air
-Comes out in 5 frames and is invincible frames 5-8, allowing it to avoid grabs if buffered at the same time as an opponent (say a ground release out of a grab)
-If timed right can cut through any approach in the game.
-Has almost no lag and is almost impossible to punish.
-If you cancel it the right distance above the ground you can jump out of his failed cancel animation (no lag from jumping off the ground).
-Aerially comes out very fast (frame 8) and has a powerful hitbox. If you are below or in front of MK at startup you will be semispiked forward, and if you are behind or above him you will be semispiked backwards. A plus to the backwards semispike is that MK can then simply glide back to the stage.
-Has numerous points to sweetspot the ledge making MK’s edgeguarding with this move ridiculous.
-Has crazy knockback at low percents.
-Can still hit opponents for an entire semi circle in front of MK.
-Puts MK into a second glide, allowing him to use multiple glides. Also sets him up higher in the air so that he can gain more momentum.
-You can land on the stage or a platform with the top of the shuttle loop to cancel it instantly. For some odd reason when you do this if you buffer another shuttle loop out of it, you get a another aerial shuttle loop, able to semispike nearby opponents.
6. Other Moves
Glide/Glide Attack
-MK has the second fastest glide in the game but the best control on where he goes.
-He can cancel the glide and fastfall it to have no lag from high glide points.
-He can gain massive positive height on his glide as long as he has space to glide a little lower.
-If he has no space to glide lower the glide adds to his airspeed and allows him to move quickly horizontally in the air.
-His glide attack actually clashes with other moves.
-Because of shuttle loop MK has two glides.
-His glide attack pops the opponent up with a lot of hitstun. It is very good for comboing at low percents and can lead into repeated uair combos on the entire cast.
-If he misses a cancel he has enough momentum that he will slide off platforms and ledges.
-If he doesn’t cancel and doesn’t ledge cancel, he lands in a self tech-chase position, like how Ness and Lucas can pk thunder themselves into the ground. This allows him for self created invincibility options not involving the ledge.






Summary, at perfect play, MK is unstoppable.
So, if top level play and reaching the height is the goal, then why discredit this as, people are human? as I have seen some anti-banners do.
Its either about the peak or the entire mountain. You can not have both arguments.
theses are facts that i can see and test.
this is why i'm pro-ban.
i'd like to see proof like this from the anti-ban side that can actually be tested like this.
thank you crashic.
 

CRASHiC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
7,266
Location
Haiti Gonna Hait
Just contribute something useful or gtfo.

I don't care what anyone says, MK mains have no real arguments against banning him. They just wait for pro-ban players to make a good point and then meticulously pick it apart with the stupidest little facts and tidbits. I haven't seen a single anti-ban argument that isn't just a poorly conceived counter to a pro-ban argument.

I can understand that you don't want to lose your best way to win money. But honestly, where does that leave the rest of us? Do you want every smash player to be forced to main MK just so we can win once in awhile? I main Ike. I like using Ike. When I fight a MK who knows what he's doing, I usually get two or three stocked because all he has to do is knock me off the stage and I'm done. Doesn't matter what Ike does, MK can gimp every recovery option he has.

Thus, because of MK, Ike is eliminated from tournaments. In my local tourneys I usually place top four, and I usually only lose to the single MK main in my town, who usually wins the tournament or places second (beaten by a Wario main who is more skilled than him, but who still loses to him at least half the time).

Monetary earnings is not enough to base a ban on. You can't say that just because only 30% of recent earnings have to gone to MK, he isn't freaking EVERYWHERE. And it will only get worse. If he isn't banned now, I promise you it will only get worse.
I'm sorry, but not just because of MK are you loosing out.
You also have us D3s.
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
5,520
Location
Portugal
But not to this extreme. He becomes untouchable when each move is used to perfection. Very few moves have any sort of weak point at all.
Again, read the entire fiction argument and you will see what I am talking about, instead of going off of your own theory craft.
Frame rate data is NOT theory craft.
Strawman, I used no theorycraft at all. I pointed out theorycraft and reality are different things.
 

'V'

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,377
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Why all the futile argument. Metaknight is too good. Anyone can see this. Even if he isn't invincible, he makes the game much more stale. Ban him.
Not completely true. Some people think Meta Knight dittos are more interesting matches than most other Brawl matches.
 

noradseven

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
1,558
Location
North Carolina
No matter what happens, top tiers will win and low tiers will lose.

This is why either :

(A) You ban more than just one character to try to balance things out for the majority of the ENTIRE cast

or

(B) You make certain tournament divisions where only certain characters are allowed like in heavyweight boxing. Have an only-high tier division and an only-low tier division.

Either way, the game's still pretty broken, but at least people will have a little more fun using the characters that they like. At least for low tiers anyway.
Im actually surprisd this doesn't happen more low tier tournies own, lol ban top/high/mid tier, actually sometimes it shows that a low tier character really needs to be mid, plus they are alot of fun and you don't see the same 3-4 characters.

Jesus christ with all the SRK stuff guys I swear most of you never played the games, outside of 2-3 of your friends. This is p. much how SRK bans work by the way, is the character top tier, was the character playable in the arcade, if the answers yes, then no, they are p. much going to be banned flat out, I mean its fairly predictable, same thing with akuma in SFII as far as the community was conserned he was never a playable character so even if he is fair now, the fact that he is still the best made them go, uhhhh no and ban him.
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
In theorycraft, all best non-banned characters from all fighting games should always win.

But reality isn't too convenient for you is it.
No, because generally even the best characters have counters.
 

Bob Money

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2004
Messages
913
Location
Concord
EVO(Mr.Wizard) Banned Akuma THEN the SF community (SRK forums) banned him. EVO=Mr. Wizard.

Smashboards=Smash community SMASH BOARDS HAS NO EQUIVALENT THAT THE SHEEP (COMMUNITY) HAS TO FOLLOW TOURNAMENT RULES!

To say the community is the standard for a tournament is wrong because people have different opinions. In the end it was ONE guy Mr.Wizard that made the decision!!!! HE COULD HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY MAJOR PLAYERS or $$$$ Value/attendance to EVO/SRK Validity in the eyes of PRO players But...HE(EVO)made the decision...SMASH DOES NOT HAVE A MR.WIZARD. THe ban worked for the SF community because EVO WAS THE STANDARD!!!!!!! :) Caps for emphasis :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom