Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

because Street Fighter has done the same thing.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972130&postcount=873

but its not to that extent. you can go toe to toe with mk. plus this whole thing is obviously over-hyped anyway

also amapharos, of course your being ignored. No one wants to listen to reason. they just want their convienient little ban. (lazyness, bandwagon, the reasons are endless)

 

[Famous]

idk, its alot to take in, mk does make the game somewhat gay but i like the challenge of mk....he does help eliminate some matches for other characters harder matchups....i'll think about it...too many valid points from pro ban side

I like the challenge too....but you can get just as good of a challenge from a pro player maining a low/mid tier...

Just because if mk is out of the picture doesn't mean the challenge will be gone...Cutting MK is basically forcing everyone to take time to develop the meta-game for more characters...Nothing wrong with that at all

 

[Flayl]

Yes. and your idea that at perfect play MK can be beaten is just that, theorycraft. Frame rata data says otherwise.

That's like, the complete opposite of what I said. Keep digging.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Mk...

10falconkicks

 

[CRASHiC]

What I am seeing most from these pages is that people are voting without reading the front page argument. Some are, but most are not.

 

[Falconv1.0]

The way you guys ignore big anti ban posts then point the small comments people make as "all anti ban side has" is infuriating.

 

[Nysyarc]

I'm sorry, but not just because of MK are you loosing out.
You also have us D3s.

I actually don't have too much trouble with D3s. I studied the match-up and although I still lose to a good DDD fairly often, I stand a fair chance because I know what to expect and what I can do to try and win as Ike.

Against MK however, Ike has no strategy. Sure, he outranges MK with a few attacks, but those attacks are slow and MK can easily punish them. MK can simply hover around, stalling, waiting for Ike to make a mistake and then swoop in to knock him off-stage. Like I said, all they need to do is get Ike off-stage, and if they know what they're doing, it's over.

 

[Roxas M]

I hope my long post isn't on the road to being ignored; it took me forever to type up...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972439&postcount=946

Also, these poll results are mirroring the previous polls so far. If trends hold, "yes" will continue to win but ultimately be winning by a very small margin.

this is a good argument.

 

[Remzi]

I hope my long post isn't on the road to being ignored; it took me forever to type up...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972439&postcount=946

Also, these poll results are mirroring the previous polls so far. If trends hold, "yes" will continue to win but ultimately be winning by a very small margin.

I saw this post, and intend to reply to it, but it's long as **** and will do so later haha

 

[CRASHiC]

but its not to that extent. you can go toe to toe with mk. plus this whole thing is obviously over-hyped anyway

Yes. Akuma in HD remix is exactly the same as MK in Brawl. The community is divided but favors ban, he is not 90:10 broken and wins all tournaments, but he is broken enough to take more than his far share of the money, has no bad matchups, among other similarities.

 

[noradseven]

No, because generally even the best characters have counters.

not eddie, sagat, nu, jun, lisa, sion though, I could name more if you gave me some more time, also I don't think falco in melee had a bad match did he???

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

what about everyone elses frame data too? snake f-tilt. four frames. pro-banners are ignoring things on purpose and as usual people follow because few actually think for themselves

 

[Nysyarc]

What's even the point in all this 'comparing MK to Akuma' nonsense? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Roxas M]

I saw this post, and intend to reply to it, but it's long as **** and will do so later haha

ditto. lol
i need to find more evidence to counter this argument.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Personally, I really don't know how to vote. From how I see it, voting "anti-ban" would be going against the competitive ideal of playing to win even if you have to play outlandishly gay to get the upper hand which is kind of what Metaknight's metagame is in a nutshell. He's better than the rest of cast but he's not broken but the odds certainly are stacked against most of the cast. As I tell the people who enter my tournaments (although the number of people who play Metaknight online is a lot fewer than those that play him offline), do whatever you have to do to win as long as it's in legal limits and that's pretty much what Metaknight players have been doing from the start.

On the other hand, I may just want to say screw the competitive ideal because I want to see more variety. The Metaknight players keep saying "oh, just wait a little while, the gap will get smaller" but it hasn't. It's basically been a cycle of Snake catching up and then Metaknight running away with the lead again after a big tournament. As a person who uses everyone and has used probably about half the cast in at least one tournament, it annoys me to me see tournaments where 4 or 5 of the people who even rank are Metaknight players. Granted, under competition standards it shouldn't matter, but, in my own perspective, it bores me to tears and just leads people further into the belief that Brawl is complete garbage competitively.

People say you should just learn the match up but this arguement simply annoys me because it assumes that your opponent doesn't do any research and their game remains stagnant until the next time you fight them. One of my mains is Mario and I've learned how to deal with most Dededes but put me up against someone who has a decent amount of experience fighting Mario and I'm basically sunk. You can only learn so much to save yourself from craptastic matchups. As some people have said in other threads, relying on your opponent's ignorance is definately not the best strategy. Also, case in point, Metaknight still dominates the offline competitive scene despite people saying "just learn the matchup" for over a year. Granted, it's not impossible to make matchups better but it takes either a big discovery or a lot of little ones to really turn a match up around.

Back to my variety bit, I've noticed that variety has been much better in tournaments that have banned Metaknight. You see characters like Toon Link, Pit, Marth, and Pikachu doing a lot better and, if you ask me, that's worth it all unto itself. Yes, I personally believe that Metaknight single handedly is holding back characters like Marth and Pikachu from being Top tier characters. Melee had like 6 characters that dominated the tournament scene, Brawl pretty much has two with Snake eating Metaknight's dust. If this changed to even just four characters dominating Brawl tournaments, I'd be a happy man. If Brawl changed from "how do you beat Metaknight" to "how do you beat the people in S tier", I think the way that most people view Brawl would probably change.

Just a little side note I wanted to throw in, I believe Snake does as well as he does because he's the closest thing to a counterpick against Metaknight that we're ever going to get. Yoshi gets destroyed by all the other high tier characters and I still say that Diddy players have to genuinely outplay the Metaknight players to keep things close. Snake has counters, both stage and character wise and I think, with Metaknight gone, things would balance out more instead of Snake running away with tournaments like Metaknight does now. If I had to guess, a Metaknight free tournament scene would probably have Snake, Wario, King Dedede, Olimar (another character I believe Metaknight strongly holds back), Ice Climbers, and Falco as the dominant characters. In time, I think Pikachu and Marth would join those ranks as well.

In the end though, I don't know how to vote despite knowing both arguements pretty well and leaning to the point of falling over towards the pro-ban side. I want to hear what other people have to say about this question but, all in all, would you say that wanting to ban Metaknight goes against competitive ideals or not and why?

 

[WaterTails]

How did I not notice this earlier?

Broken: A word used to describe an element in a video game that does belong. It is above the level of the game and its mechanics and renders the game virtually uncompetitive without the use of said element.

Argumentum ad hominem, as well as being a meanie, time!

From what attention I've paid to this thread, the main argument presented by the pro-ban community is that MK is "broken." Having reread FICTION's dealy, I noticed an error that helps the cool kids (the anti-bans).

There you have it, folks. MK does belong, according to one of the documents linked in the pro-ban argument.

That being said, Praxus, you almost made me give up my anti-ban-ness with that SF2 and SSF2THDR analog!

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Crashic, Fox is literally UNTOUCHABLE in Melee at perfect play. That whole argument is just another excuse to avoid dealing with the actual phenomenology of the situation. It doesn't matter what we THINK MK can do, the proof is in the results!

1. Street Fighter doing the same thing isn't a real argument (and also implies that you don't have any argument aside from), and doesn't address my point about results.
2. Why should I (we) care what they do in SF2 Remix?
3. Neither I nor you know what method they used to find out whether to ban him, so if you don't know precisely why they banned him, they aren't even comparable things. The post that Praxis linked really isn't any different from what you'd see from a reasonably smart pro-ban person.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

The way you guys ignore big anti ban posts then point the small comments people make as "all anti ban side has" is infuriating.

this 1000 times over

 

[POKE40]

I need to quote Amazing Ampharous's argument
Very well done.

OP seems to be pro :/
needs moar def. IMO

 

[noradseven]

What's even the point in all this 'comparing MK to Akuma' nonsense? What does that have to do with anything?

Its because SRK randomly bans and they finally banned someone so they are trying to say MK is like akuma even though if SFII was a new game released today I really don't think SRK would ban him.

 

[Nysyarc]

what about everyone elses frame data too? snake f-tilt. four frames. pro-banners are ignoring things on purpose and as usual people follow because few actually think for themselves

Are you suggesting that all pro-ban players excluding those who made the arguments can't think for themselves? Good argument in MKs favor, very convincing.

Also, you seem to think Snake is more ban-worthy than MK. Do elaborate.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Addendum: If what Bob$ says is correct, and it was just Mr. Wizard's decision to ban Akuma at EVO, then that's ****ing hilarious. Mr. Wizard is far from an authority on competitive gaming, anyone who was in the SBR in 2008 can tell you that!

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

and also gouken and seth are banned in sf4 in japan too. also a completely unwaranted ban. they dont even win tournaments

 

[CRASHiC]

what about everyone elses frame data too? snake f-tilt. four frames. pro-banners are ignoring things on purpose and as usual people follow because few actually think for themselves

Add shield stun frames to that.
Add the push that many of MKs moves give.
This will not punish the majority of the moves listed by Fiction.

 

[Flayl]

HyugaRicdeau pretty much thinks the same way I do. I think I can go sleep now. Thanks to noradseven for providing examples which I'm sure the pro-banners will dismiss in favor of Remix akuma.

 

[noradseven]

Are you suggesting that all pro-ban players excluding those who made the arguments can't think for themselves? Good argument in MKs favor, very convincing.

Also, you seem to think Snake is more ban-worthy than MK. Do elaborate.

I mean in all seriousness with that list, I bet the link mains could come up with one just as lengthy, but in the end link still sucks right. You p. much just posted the good things MK can do what matters is how other ppl can trick him and beat his gay **** which is possible, and not even like ohhh its p. much impossible but you can do it, no I mean you can totally do it, 6:4 doesn't mean I will lost a large portion of the time, it means you will lose 6 out of 10 games assuming you are of equal skill.

 

[Overswarm]

Crashic, Fox is literally UNTOUCHABLE in Melee at perfect play. That whole argument is just another excuse to avoid dealing with the actual phenomenology of the situation. It doesn't matter what we THINK MK can do, the proof is in the results!

1. Street Fighter doing the same thing isn't a real argument (and also implies that you don't have any argument aside from), and doesn't address my point about results.
2. Why should I (we) care what they do in SF2 Remix?
3. Neither I nor you know what method they used to find out whether to ban him, so if you don't know precisely why they banned him, they aren't even comparable things. The post that Praxis linked really isn't any different from what you'd see from a reasonably smart pro-ban person.

Metaknight holds roughly 22% of ALL tournament places, the most of any characters. 22/100 doesn't seem like much, but this is a single character taking nearly 1/4th of ALL tournament PLACEMENTS... out of 36 characters.

Second place is Snake, with roughly 13% of all placements, a 9% decrease from 1st to 2nd place. Third place is currently held by Dedede, who is actually ranked at 4th place, with 7%, a 6% decrease from 2nd..

Fourth place is held by Falco at 5%, a 2% decrease from third place. It only gets WORSE. Metaknight is incredibly overcentralizing, especially when combing all the tournament placements of Snake and Dedede results in 2% less than Metaknight alone!

In conclusion, the most common tournament placings in the top 3:
Metaknight- 22%
Snake-13% (9% less than MK)
Dedede- 7% (15% less than MK)

It gets lower from there. Much, much lower.

This is not taking into account the top 8, which many have noticed to have several more MKs than other characters... So MK is actually more dominant than these percentages dictate.

This is also the "money places".

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

and also gouken and seth are banned in sf4 in japan too. also a completely unwaranted ban. they dont even win tournaments

I believe that's because they are console characters, and in Japan the metagame and tournaments etc are largely based around the arcade scene.

 

[TP]

SBR members should not be allowed to vote in this poll. The purpose of this poll is to give the rest of the community a voice. They can vote in their own, much more important poll.

Currently, I'm neutral.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

thats one example. there are PLENTY more.
you guys are just stubborn and close minded.
screw this im gonna go play sf4 and try later when people like yuna are here to once again attempt to make sense out of you guys

 

[demonictoonlink]

LOL so hard at almost 70 pages...There'll probably be like ten posts before I get even this short pointless post out...lol

I don't care if I get flamed for this. Whatever. I honestly believe Snake, that's right...SNAKE! is the best character in the game. I'm not saying right now, but I see him and MK as just about as good right now. What's Metaknight going to improve? Spacing more? What's Snake going to improve? Anything he wants. He's got an entire moveset that even Ally hasn't set in to full potential. This sounds stupid, but I'll redirect people to this post in a year when Snake is about to be banned.


~Fino
(not really...)

EDIT: It was 9 posts. Was so close...

 

['V']

What I am seeing most from these pages is that people are voting without reading the front page argument. Some are, but most are not.

We've seen these arguments on the front page AT LEAST 3 TIMES ALREADY from the other polls. And who knows just how many times people have seen it in other threads..? Truth be told, it's getting old. People need new ideas and such.

What ever happened to people just posting their opinions? This is a forum that encourages that, right?

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Page 69 already? 0_o

 

[ETWIST51294]

and also gouken and seth are banned in sf4 in japan too. also a completely unwaranted ban. they dont even win tournaments

Seth has a lot of options but he does little damage, Goukens throw sets up for his ultra and his super. He better be banned. Not to mention his anti air fireballs.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

and also gouken and seth are banned in sf4 in japan too. also a completely unwaranted ban. they dont even win tournaments

all console exclusive characters are technically "banned" in japan

because they play on arcades only. they aren't actually banned, it's just impossible to use them because of the system choice

 

[RedyBz]

I need to quote Amazing Ampharous's argument
Very well done.

OP seems to be pro :/
needs moar def. IMO

OP voted for no.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Metaknight holds roughly 22% of ALL tournament places, the most of any characters. 22/100 doesn't seem like much, but this is a single character taking nearly 1/4th of ALL tournament PLACEMENTS... out of 36 characters.

all 36 characters cant win and you know it. this is a reason why noobs are 95% for the ban. they eat out of your guys hands

 

[Teran]

Page 69 already? 0_o

This topic is hotter than the Tier List, don't be surprised. XD

 

[CRASHiC]

Crashic, Fox is literally UNTOUCHABLE in Melee at perfect play. That whole argument is just another excuse to avoid dealing with the actual phenomenology of the situation. It doesn't matter what we THINK MK can do, the proof is in the results!

1. Street Fighter doing the same thing isn't a real argument (and also implies that you don't have any argument aside from), and doesn't address my point about results.
2. Why should I (we) care what they do in SF2 Remix?
3. Neither I nor you know what method they used to find out whether to ban him, so if you don't know precisely why they banned him, they aren't even comparable things. The post that Praxis linked really isn't any different from what you'd see from a reasonably smart pro-ban person.

I suppose this is why people want to redo melee's tier list?
Because Fox is so untouchable a large portion of people no longer believe he is on top?

 

['V']

Truth be told, it's getting old.

No rhyme intended by the way. =]