Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Roxas M]

what about everyone elses frame data too? snake f-tilt. four frames. pro-banners are ignoring things on purpose and as usual people follow because few actually think for themselves

that's 1 move. your going to make a argument with that?
bring more evidence please.
i can't speak for all the pro-ban people but i don't ignore information. show it to me. then you can't use that excuse because you showed it to me.
and you maybe right. some pro-ban people didn't think about it and see the arguments. but some did.

 

[Vorguen]

Brawl's metagame is pretty much summed up by this statement.

I personally have fallen victim to losing a set because of my opponent goes mk.

I personally don't do it out of principle, but If I were strictly playing to win I would go mk in a heartbeat.

As previously stated by all 9234893849834 people on this thread, mk has NO badmatchups, destroys the counterpick system, essentially has unlimited recovery, and can plank. It seems like metaknight invented planking.

Mk is NOT unbeatable, however he cheapens the game so much to a point that this thread has been created.

I vote ban.

This.

Especially since MK also cheapens any tournament he is a part of when one has to go through the last half of the winner's and loser's brackets through a bunch of straight Meta Knight set.

 

[noradseven]

and also gouken and seth are banned in sf4 in japan too. also a completely unwaranted ban. they dont even win tournaments

So is cammy and dan, lol, japan plays arcade only all the way they don't ban anyone ever p. much if they were in the arcade.

And like I said SRK banned akuma because he isn't in their minds a SFII character most of them played SFII for like the same reason we would play N64 if someone came through and balanced it, but imagine if now the master hand was playable but still fair(the best) but still fair do you think many ppl would want him in tournies hell no.

Here is another example in Melty blood if anyone gets banned its the 2 bottom tier character the nekos why because they are chessy and extremely frustrating to fight if you really don't know the match however if you do know the match they suck BADLY. Its hillarious watching ppl complain that they weren't banned when they are bottom tier. What Im trying to say is that ppl don't consider them characters so they don't want to play against them.

 

[KevinM]

Smash is so spoiled.

Move to third strike if you want a game dominated by only one or two characters.

Evo 2008 Results

Chun
Chun
Chun

gg.

 

[Emperor Time]

Seth has a lot of options but he does little damage, Goukens throw sets up for his ultra and his super. He better be banned. Not to mention his anti air fireballs.

Learn2techgrabs.

 

[SuSa]

Sorry man. True though.

The few can be argued to be the top.

There Smash BRoom are part of the few.
The proud.
The "best".

 

[fkacyan]

Metaknight holds roughly 22% of ALL tournament places, the most of any characters. 22/100 doesn't seem like much, but this is a single character taking nearly 1/4th of ALL tournament PLACEMENTS... out of 36 characters.

Second place is Snake, with roughly 13% of all placements, a 9% decrease from 1st to 2nd place. Third place is currently held by Dedede, who is actually ranked at 4th place, with 7%, a 6% decrease from 2nd..

Fourth place is held by Falco at 5%, a 2% decrease from third place. It only gets WORSE. Metaknight is incredibly overcentralizing, especially when combing all the tournament placements of Snake and Dedede results in 2% less than Metaknight alone!

In conclusion, the most common tournament placings in the top 3:
Metaknight- 22%
Snake-13% (9% less than MK)
Dedede- 7% (15% less than MK)

It gets lower from there. Much, much lower.

This is not taking into account the top 8, which many have noticed to have several more MKs than other characters... So MK is actually more dominant than these percentages dictate.

This is also the "money places".

Ankoku's list has several issues:

- It represents far too many metagames, including ridiculously undeveloped ones
- It has a strong volunteer bias
- It doesn't take into account the player behind the character.

Your facts are as inaccurate as mine were in my previous numbers post.

 

[Eddie G]

all 36 characters cant win and you know it. this is a reason why noobs are 95% for the ban. they eat out of your guys hands

Shut up.

I can play the MK matchup just fine with Peach, including Overswarm's MK. That is...until he plays defensively.

I don't eat out of anyone's hand when it comes to making an informed and fair decision. Don't embarrass yourself with posts like that.

 

[MetaMasterMoe]

If anyone truly read the article you would realize that the anti - ban says the ban reasoning no longer applies due to the trial of time and real life results such as tournaments outcomes.

 

[CRASHiC]

all 36 characters cant win and you know it. this is a reason why noobs are 95% for the ban. they eat out of your guys hands

And you?
I'm sorry, but I have never stumbled upon the name of the great Dj Iskascribble.
Co18 who placed top 5 at WHOBO, everyone above him using MK, him using only D3 is for the ban.
Fiction, arguably one of the top 3 players in the world is for the ban.

It is not just n00bs and people who can't beat MK voting for the ban.

 

[fkacyan]

I suppose this is why people want to redo melee's tier list?
Because Fox is so untouchable a large portion of people no longer believe he is on top?

Playing Fox frame-perfect is nigh on impossible, similarly to how playing MK frame-perfect is nigh-on impossible.

You changed the argument in order to avoid the blatant contradiction that was present. Or tried, anyways.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is a bad idea.


The idea of "settling this issue once and for all" is a bad idea, period. We don't know what will happen in the future, if he's banworthy now, and metagame advances change that, then we need to be able to unban.

Conversely, if he isn't banworthy now, metagame advances may change that in the future, rending him worthy to ban. If we say, "this is it", then taking it back later hurts the SBR's legitimacy, but not taking it back later may do a great deal of damage to the metagame.


And honestly, even for the current metagame, he MIGHT be bannable, but we don't really have the evidence to decide this, which is another reason why this is a bad idea right now.


Match-ups? Unreliable theory behind them as I've said many times before, nobody seems to know how to properly deal with mindgames potential (where we basically have the polar opposites between "everything hits" ala "Ike f-smash", or "nothing hits" ala "MK will always be able to maintain those 5 pixels that separate the range of his d-tilt and the range of snake's grenades" whereas the correct answer is talk about odds of a correct prediction and damage that a correct prediction does). Match-up theory needs to be radically re-examined before we can even talk about banning a character.

What about empirical match-ups? Unfortunately, there's not enough collected data to really talk about this.


How about tournament results? Well Ankoku's thread helps there, because it basically measurs centralization, but it doesn't measure character power in the metagame, because of this it's far too influenced by popularity to be the only measure.

I'm trying to address this, but we haven't even really gotten a list up because it's still be organized.


It's still too soon for this, I talked about this in a blog a while back, what we should do in order to decide this, and really, none of the objectives have been met.


We see tournament results in terms of actual centralization, but unfortunately that's only a very tiny portion of the picture. Rather then doing this right now, we as a community should concentrate on actually preparing for this as a concerted effort. Not twiddling our thumbs and reposting this topic everytime a lot of MKs place well, and certainly not choosing a random time to "decide it all" with no real data to back it up.


As a final note, HD remix Akuma, I was under the impression that he's actually a great deal better then MK and one of the main reasons he was banned was because he has literally inescapable set-ups as well as various other powerful options that places him FAR above the rest of the cast, whereas our data indicates mainly 60-40s for MK.

 

[CR4SH]

^Lame ***


Anyways I think he should stay, ESPECIALLY with homo a ss characters around like Ice Climbers WTF (IC's = skill + 300%). Don't ban anything because there's actually **** gayer than MK in the game so we need him.

Lol, best antiban argument I've seen.

en ee oh says, don't awake the sleeping giant. He's super ****ing gay.

 

[Famous]

all 36 characters cant win and you know it. this is a reason why noobs are 95% for the ban. they eat out of your guys hands

You do realize that MK himself outweighs the skill of the player in alot of cases...

 

[SuSa]

Shut up.

I can play the MK matchup just fine with Peach, including Overswarm's MK. That is...until he plays defensively.

I don't eat out of anyone's hand when it comes to making an informed and fair decision. Don't embarrass yourself with posts like that.

So you mean how Brawl is meant to be played? With the lack of hitstun and shieldstun/blockstun present, it's almost always best to be defensive when possible.

If you look, as we get further down on the tier list.. those characters generally are simply worse at forcing opponents to approach and/or have bad approach options.

EDIT:
Neo, why bring IC's into this? It's called "get rid of Nana, no problem til next stock". Their grab range is pathetic, and truly... it seems to be argued that Snake does far better against them then Meta Knight...

EDIT:
@adumbrodeus
I'd much rather see people who can make a mistake and reverse it then those who let something go unchecked. Luckily in this case it can never be "already too late".

 

[ETWIST51294]

Learn2techgrabs.

Ahhhh, I forgot. I need to get back on my sf skills.

 

[Nintendevil]

all 36 characters cant win and you know it. this is a reason why noobs are 95% for the ban. they eat out of your guys hands

lmao, last time I checked, there where plenty of noobs against the ban as well, seeing as a lot of noobs main MK.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I'm not sure what you mean Crashic, most people agree that top is either Fox or Marth. My point was that nobody plays Fox or MK perfectly, so there is no use debating what happens when people do. The only thing that matters is what actually happens in tournaments, to which I address Overswarm:

Overswarm:
Thanks for those additional stats, but I still don't really see a problem with 22% of tournament placements. By the way, by placements, you mean placing above a certain threshhold (presumably 1st-3rd?), and not just by number of entrants yes? 22% isn't even averaging placing every tournament, it's very close to averaging 2 placings in 3 tournaments.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Smash is so spoiled.

Move to third strike if you want a game dominated by only one or two characters.

Evo 2008 Results

Chun
Chun
Chun

gg.

yea LMAO


this is why our community is so laughable competitively, and it's mainly because a lot of people just suck @ our game and don't grind it out as hardcore as they do in other fighters


top players like daigo played 5 hours a day 5 days a week before evo to prepare, I wouldn't mind doing some **** like that but to the rest of the players that's probably unheard of m- because they suck

 

[Praxis]

Smash is so spoiled.

Move to third strike if you want a game dominated by only one or two characters.

Evo 2008 Results

Chun
Chun
Chun

gg.

Wasn't Yun the best character in this game, and didn't Diago main Ken (4th on the tier list) and consistently win everything he went to?

The 2nd best character dominating the results indicates that the balance wasn't that bad after all.

 

[Luigi player]

I don't think MK should be banned.

 

[P. O. F.]

Why should Meta Knight be banned?

 

[Nintendevil]

I don't think MK should be banned.

And Jesus loves you too.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Smash is so spoiled.

Move to third strike if you want a game dominated by only one or two characters.

Evo 2008 Results

Chun
Chun
Chun

gg.

But you have people in 3S in japan who don't come here to play in evo. hayao ***** yuns. chuns, and kens with hugo. And RX is the rapiest urien i've ever seen.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Adumbrodeus wins
SuSa wins
Amazing A wins

So much anti-ban win...

Seriously though, this thread moves faster than a priest running to a playground...I just keep updating, and it's always new... lol

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Brawl has been out for a little over a year BTW


Awesome community rooooofl

 

[noradseven]

Yun was the best but he was hard as ****, and chun was easy so like 4-5 times more ppl mained chun, Ken was the was the top tier CP, he had even against yun and slight disadvantage on chun.

Makoto came in at 4th due to IK combo lolol.

And seriously if did p. good(NOT EVEN WIN) and you didn't play jun/chun/ken/makoto ppl would talk about you forever, SERIOUSLY, instant huge fame.

Plus its not like MKs win everything like ppl seem to think, they just win the most. haha.

So you mean how Brawl is meant to be played? With the lack of hitstun and shieldstun/blockstun present, it's almost always best to be defensive when possible.

If you look, as we get further down on the tier list.. those characters generally are simply worse at forcing opponents to approach and/or have bad approach options.

It is I don't care who you play if you don't play like a defensive jerk you will win, though you don't have to take it as far as the japanese players do hahaha.

 

[P. O. F.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972895&postcount=1062

 

[ZIO]

You know what? This poll just causes needless controversy and endless argument from both sides of the Ban. Each side has legit reasoning, but to have such a definitive poll I think is actually stupid.

*serious face*

At least the man isn't Ivan Ooze. He's not that broken.

 

[Nintendevil]

Brawl has been out for a little over a year BTW

And these topics keep popping up, yet nobody will even accept a temp ban.

 

[CRASHiC]

Playing Fox frame-perfect is nigh on impossible, similarly to how playing MK frame-perfect is nigh-on impossible.

You changed the argument in order to avoid the blatant contradiction that was present. Or tried, anyways.

No. There is an entire thread arguing why fox is no longer the best and top charecter.
My argument of top play remains.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Wasn't Yun the best character in this game, and didn't Diago main Ken (4th on the tier list) and consistently win everything he went to?

The 2nd best character dominating the results indicates that the balance wasn't that bad after all.

Actually, Daigo was quite overrated in 3S, Kuroda ran 3S with every character.

 

[noradseven]

You keep saying no temp ban didn't we have a couple big tournies that banned MK, I mean if the host wants MK banned they should just go for it.

You know what? This poll just causes needless controversy and endless argument from both sides of the Ban. Each side has legit reasoning, but to have such a definitive poll I think is actually stupid.

*serious face*

At least the man isn't Ivan Ooze. He's not that broken.

IDK ivan, but is he worse than petshop/justice, if so O_O, holy ****, also petshop/justice worse matchups were like 8:2/7:3 in their favor, the average being 9:1/8:2, so yeah those were ppl. that needed banned.

 

[Roxas M]

Brawl has been out for a little over a year BTW


Awesome community rooooofl

neo, why do you make so much sense?

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972895&postcount=1062

Ad hominem, yawn.

 

[fkacyan]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972895&postcount=1062

And the anti-banners use characters they believe render their character non-viable.

Your point is invalid.

 

[Nysyarc]

and people are saying we are complaining about match ups. LOL. The fact of the matter is, SBR wont ban him because the SBR MAINS META KNIGHT.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say. At this point, so many people use Meta Knight to win because he's broken and easy to win with, that they're all blind to the fact that he is broken. They don't care about people who main other characters, they want to win. And guess what the easiest way to do that is? To play as Metaknight. Oh and I guarantee you of those SBR members, many of them secondary Metaknight or use him in certain match-ups.

It's why he should be banned. Because eventually the only way to win will be to pick up Meta Knight. Simple as that.

 

[shogun.]

because he is smart duh...
imo
don't ban unless your name is super turbo akuma

 

[Nintendevil]

And the anti-banners use characters they believe render their character non-viable.

Your point is invalid.

learn2percentages

 

[Overswarm]

And the anti-banners use characters they believe render their character non-viable.

Your point is invalid.

You mean someone other than MK?

BADUM PSH


I main MK cuz he's eeeeeeeeasy