Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

I've never tried shine > upsmash vs. jiggs. Don't get to play to many of them round these parts. Definitely reliable vs. fox and falco, though.

Brookman, KirbyKaze, Dr Peepee, Tr3MoR, KAOSTAR, battousai555

 

[Druggedfox]

@trahh

Turn around uptilt, turn around short hop bair, WD backwards... also, while shielding isn't the best choice, its not bad worst case scenario. If you *know* falcon is going to aerial he can't really do anything to you if you shield though you definitely have better aforementioned options. For combo'ing you definitely want to focus on tech chasing; a good way is to just play on FD a lot and upthrow nair as often as possible when their damage is high enough. I'll emphasize again that uptilt is ridiculous bull**** if you don't get too predictable

 

[Lovage]

against falcon my advice is to not run around on platforms too much, it's very easy to get uair'd or be trapped in the air because of uair

a lot of hitting falcon is about dashing in the right ways and timing your moves to stuff his nairs/knees before they come out (tradings fine sometimes)

 

[Tomacawk]

You can waveshine running shffl dair puff. If any part of your dair hits it forces her off the ground or to roll/get up. It's very fast and you can continue chasing her if it misses.

 

[mers]

You can waveshine running shffl dair puff. If any part of your dair hits it forces her off the ground or to roll/get up. It's very fast and you can continue chasing her if it misses.

I don't think I've ever seen this done. It sounds badass, and like it could be good against any character that falls from shine. How reliable is it?

 

[Tomacawk]

In terms of reliability, I don't actually know. I've really ignored application of this technique just because I don't see great foxes do it and I assume they know something that I don't.

 

[Silent Wolf]

if you arent fast enough you can get get-up attacked, so it risks the chance you had of getting a tech chase. plus the dair would only do a few %

but yea its cool lol. its cool to do jump, shine (a fast faller), jump, waveland on platform towards them, fall off with dair. they usually have to Di in somewhat tho. its like the same thing as doing the last combo in shined blind but on a fast faller.

 

[EWC]

I don't think it's actually possible to hit them with dair before they can do a get up attack/whatever. It takes like 16 frames for you to waveshine plus 9 to get the dair hitbox out. They can become invincible 28 frames or so after the shine hits, so that leaves only three frames to get to where they are which I'm pretty sure isn't enough. Realistically though nobody inputs their getup attack on the earliest possible frame so it can still work a lot. It's definitely easier to just do an upsmash after the shine though.

 

[JPOBS]

Realistically though nobody inputs their getup attack on the earliest possible frame so it can still work a lot.

what about cases where you shine them as they were trying to do something else so their getup attack kinda buffers.....cuz that happens a ton

but i do waveshine->dair fallies all the time in friendlies for lulz.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

@trahh

Turn around uptilt, turn around short hop bair, WD backwards... also, while shielding isn't the best choice, its not bad worst case scenario. If you *know* falcon is going to aerial he can't really do anything to you if you shield though you definitely have better aforementioned options. For combo'ing you definitely want to focus on tech chasing; a good way is to just play on FD a lot and upthrow nair as often as possible when their damage is high enough. I'll emphasize again that uptilt is ridiculous bull**** if you don't get too predictable

awesome, thank you DF =]

against falcon my advice is to not run around on platforms too much, it's very easy to get uair'd or be trapped in the air because of uair

a lot of hitting falcon is about dashing in the right ways and timing your moves to stuff his nairs/knees before they come out (tradings fine sometimes)

yeah i definitely understand not being above falcon, before i would just do it all the time, for some scrubby reason.

2nd sentence made plenty of sense. tytyty

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No actually i think tomacawk is right. Seems like a solid choice. If they tech, you have enough time to cover (since you land where they hit the ground) and your dair would likely hit before they could do the getup attack or standup which would let you safely hit the ground to cover the options they are choosing.

Assuming the dair could hit, it covers a lot more than an usmash would (accounts for techs)

Ima do a test to see the actual frame datas




edit- Heres a gif of my test. This is 1 frame late on the dash after the WD as well as 1 frame late on the dair. I believe the fast fall was correct as well, but may be 1 frame off.

I couldn't simulate the direction of the perfect wavedash with my keyboard, but as you can see if the WD was correct, it would put fox right where he would need to be to hit with the dair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol drillshine drill

i'm thinking that this would be ruined by puff diing away or some kind of di on the drill but i guess that's cool

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

thats what i was thinking

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

oh i was thinking more shine->drill->reaction usmash

 

[earla]

best options for minimizing damage from peach/marths cgs?

 

[Brookman]

This is an obvious one.


BUT, Since we're all bound to get grabbed. . .

Catch a Platform but be careful, its pretty easy to just keep destroying you here. DI Marth's up tilt or try to slight DI behind and shine. Peach is less lenient and you'll have to catch a platform (if it's FD you have to hope they're bad ^_^ )

 

[Druggedfox]

Minimize damage? DI straight off the stage asap, however that puts you in an edgeguarding position, which might not be the best option.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

This is an obvious one.


BUT, Since we're all bound to get grabbed. . .

Catch a Platform but be careful, its pretty easy to just keep destroying you here. DI Marth's up tilt or try to slight DI behind and shine. Peach is less lenient and you'll have to catch a platform (if it's FD you have to hope they're bad ^_^ )

he's probably referring to FD, i'm sure he knows about going towards plats.

just mix up your DI is really all you can do to make it more 'challenging' i guess. and be ready that they may do something else instead of another grab.

 

[unknown522]

Is there anything good/guaranteed that you can combo into from shine vs puff?

you have to tech chase her, unless they DI badly. If she DI away from the center of dreamland from a shine, she can grab the edge. It's lame <_<

 

[omgwtfToph]

DI behind peach and try to shine just before they grab. that seems to make it the hardest; a lot of the peaches that used to give me trouble over here are now free cuz i realized they weren't as good at CGing as they seemed haha

if you're at a LOW percent, DI to the edge and DI an uthrow off the stage but be very, very ready to DI in for a fthrow. DI'ing fthrow outward will kill you at like, >40% percent lol

 

[unknown522]

yeah, so many peaches are bad at CGing.

KK is good at it and he doesn't even main the character.

also, I see Raynex viewing this thread (check your facebook dude btw).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KK can do all the boring effective stuff.

 

[JPOBS]

DI'ing fthrow outward will kill you at like, >40% percent lol

TWIST!!

how do you DI so as NOT to get hit by peaches upthrow->downsmash? or more precisely, what percents/DI should you be most aware of avoiding upthrow-downsmash?

it rarely happens, but every coupl dozens matches it will hit me and im like "oh yea, lol, thats gay"

 

[omgwtfToph]

hey, what do you guys think about lightshielding vs. falco? as in, whenever you have to shield for an extended period of time (as in, when you're not powershielding etc.) you lightshield instead.

i know marths do it to get out of his shield pressure cuz you slide out of the range of his shine, and then you can wavedash out of the pressure

but shield stun is longer if you lightshield, right? so do you guys think fox's shine oos would get ****tier from implementing lightshield?

idk, something i'm trying to figure out haha


edit: @JPOBS what's so bad about getting hit by uthrow dsmash? you're probably only gonna take 1 hit from the dsmash, then peach can't do anything else to you. sounds like a good deal to me

 

[KAOSTAR]

As long as the falco isnt a hugger its aight. I prefer to just occasionally throw out an angled light shield in hopes they will **** up their approach/timing.

You will have a hard time trying to shine oos and you might not even hit em if you get pushed to far away/they arent close enough.

 

[JPOBS]

hmm...getting hit by it from a upthrow on a platform sucks tho you take a ton of damage. this happens more often on FoD cause of its dynamic platforms, but occasionally on PS transformations and regular stages.

 

[Silent Wolf]

LMFAO @ ur sig jpobs. **** i miss you toph :[

 

[ChivalRuse]

I agree. That sig is amazing.

 

[EWC]

I tested the wavshine->dair thing on jiggs with Dolphin. It seems to work, but the timing is really strict. You definitely have to do a perfect wavedash, and you also have to dash/walk for a few frames to get close enough. You also have to hit with the beginning of the dair. There's no way it'll ever work if they di the shine at all.

Also, this isn't actually going to give you any better option coverage than an upsmash will. Both will hit missed tech/tech in place. You start the shffl drill about 18 frames after they hit the ground, and you'll finish 27 frames later (3 to jump, 15 airborne, 9 land lag), ie at frame 35.That doesn't leave enough time to cover either either tech roll.

Finally, even if you get the dair reset, they still have the option of stand up/roll/getup attack. So you still end up having to chase the same things you normally would.

Here's what you should take out of this if you don't actually want to bother reading through frame data stuff:
1) Waveshine dair reset works against jiggs if they don't DI the shine, but it's really hard to do reliably in a way that doesn't let them escape. It will never work against any DI away.
2) Waveshine upsmash will work in every situation where waveshine dair reset will, and it's a little bit easier to do.
3) Waveshine->reaction tech chase is better because jiggs has ****ty rolls and a slow get up attack so you can reliably cover all her options with practice.


Btw Sveet if you do a lot of testing with Dolphin you should really invest in a gamecube->usb converter so you can do things like perfect wavedash etc. It's really useful.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm really good at boring things.

 

[EWC]

You're also really good at getting third at ROM 3.

So third in ROM 3 = Boring?

 

[JPOBS]

holy **** kirbykaze got 3rd at rom.

still hasnt hit me.
taking sidebets in KK vs anyone.
edit: lol i thoguht this was the pound thread

 

[Druggedfox]

WHAT KK GOT THIRD AT ROM3? Holy **** I didn't know >_>

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yep

10kazes

 

[KirbyKaze]

To beat bad Peach CGing just DI away forever and see if they'll mess up the dash grab

Works really well at low percent, especially around like 25-35

Slight DI Shine after about 50 is also really good. After 96 you can jump out if you have good timing (no DI) provided they don't pivot grab. If they pivot grab it goes slightly longer (106 or so).

After 100 DI away and prepare to DI in/up on an F-throw, but otherwise DI away because they'll probably fail the U-throw SH Nair and then you beat the dash attack regrab nonsense

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So third in ROM 3 = Boring?

Duh.


Only the people who play really lame do well in tournaments.

 

[Divinokage]

Duh.


Only the people who play really lame do well in tournaments.

I didn't know Ganon can be lame. lol.

 

[TemPesT-]

if you arent fast enough you can get get-up attacked, so it risks the chance you had of getting a tech chase. plus the dair would only do a few %

but yea its cool lol. its cool to do jump, shine (a fast faller), jump, waveland on platform towards them, fall off with dair. they usually have to Di in somewhat tho. its like the same thing as doing the last combo in shined blind but on a fast faller.

i find it kinda sad that you saying "the last combo in shined blind" actually means something to me... i can see it perfectly lol

 

[Druggedfox]

Ganon can play really campy vs fox and falco and be lame obviously

 

[omgwtfToph]

i would definitely money match kirbykaze.


... but not for more than, like, a dollar.

>.>