Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PK Webb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIXQesgZvx8
help my fox. this is me vs jman

 

[SwiftBass]

if I may:

knowing you for a while now, I will say that one of your biggest challenges would be finishing. I think you are great, mid offense and even starting it about half the time, but you can't seem to finish and/or make the most out of an opportunity. sometimes you have bad move selection, which I will say you have gotten MUCH better with than before. Its just small stuff that will get you further. Like the one time on FD where you tried to Upsmash jman out of shield twice in a row. U had alot of upsmash out of shield attempts within a very short time frame within that a good chunk of that same game. jman I believe took a stock on one of those attempts....little stuff like that.


that and edge guarding. as much as we have to mix up offense and shield pressure, edge guarding needs that kind of variety as well regardless of how "Safe" someones recovery appears to be.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@Wenbobular: Okay, I just wasn't sure if the speed of Marth's uptilt + shield stun would make it not applicable. I always think that his u-tilt is really fast, but I forget it's end lag.

 

[Wenbobular]

Shield drop is like instantaneous, Bones says it's actually faster than shine OoS for Fox if you shine the first frame possible ... so just think about that for a second vs Marth's Uptilt and it should be pretty clear

 

[ShroudedOne]

Another thing that makes me wonder why shield dropping isn't more common.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

Same reason waveshine OoS is. It's fairly hard.

I have no idea how shield dropping works, how I should be pressing down, so I don't really bother with it.

 

[Palpi]

I think waveshining oos is much harder...and I don't shield drop ever

 

[ShroudedOne]

Once you get it the first few times, though, it begins to come naturally. I still have a little trouble, but I've been able to do it into other things (with Peach, though) that were kind of good.

 

[Strong Badam]

KK, your talking about how stale the shine is affecting shieldstun reminded me of a question I had a while back: Does shieldstun have a direct relation with damage %?

Shieldstun = floor{(Damage + 4.45)/2.235}

I seem to remember this being the case, although it doesn't seem to account for some attacks that seem to have disproportionately long shieldstun (such as Jigglypuff's Pound).

jiggs' Pound has normal 13 damage as well as 20 "shield damage" which is added on to normal damage when calculating how much damage the attack does to an opponent's shield. pretty sure this doesn't affect shieldstun, though; pound and bair had the same shieldstun last time I checked.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Strong bad I like it when you say frame things.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

I feel stupid for only learning to shinegrab now. It took me about half an hour to do it consistently. I feel stupid as well for trying it with Y+Z for so long. Doing down B and then just press up + Z is sooooo easy. Anyone can learn shinegrab, just take an hour to practice it, then the following few days do it 15 minutes each day and you'll have it down.

A good target to practice it on as if it were a shield, is Bowser with a controlled plugged in, he on level 9 handicap and you on level 1.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I always use X+Z for shinegrab (even though I've never applied it). But yeah, the Bowser tip really helps.

 

[ArcNatural]

@Wenbobular: Okay, I just wasn't sure if the speed of Marth's uptilt + shield stun would make it not applicable. I always think that his u-tilt is really fast, but I forget it's end lag.

Shield drop is like instantaneous, Bones says it's actually faster than shine OoS for Fox if you shine the first frame possible ... so just think about that for a second vs Marth's Uptilt and it should be pretty clear

Another thing that makes me wonder why shield dropping isn't more common.

Same reason waveshine OoS is. It's fairly hard.

I have no idea how shield dropping works, how I should be pressing down, so I don't really bother with it.

I think waveshining oos is much harder...and I don't shield drop ever

Normal shield dropping is easy. Buffering a shield drop off a hit (so you shield, Marth uptilts, and you buffer the input to shield drop during hitstun) is a much harder tactic. A lot of the times I try to do it I end up just shield dropping before the uptilt even hits XD.

Waveshining OOS is quite hard as well though. Props to Eggm for actually doing it somewhat consistently.

 

[voorhese]

make me better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wArnuak_VGg&feature=channel_video_title

ill post stuff i already realize here

:06 - dont try to double jump up air 2 fast in the beginning or u may get stuck in an upsmash, because you didnt let the jump register, or canceled it with the upsmash.
:15 - bair instead of fair, i know i didnt wanna do fair i think i was trying to upair and changed my mind and just flubbed it.
in general i think trying to spot dodge grabs < shining them
:45 - i dont think he could have punished a sweet spot based on where he is, unless maybe his wavedash fsmash is that good. point is recovering onto him with upb = wrong
:54 - youll see a lot of these where i wanna bair, and jump before my character turns around, and fair instead...i guess i just gotta be more patient
:55 or 56 when i saw him wavedash i reacted with bair, but way to slow, possibly run off the ledge -> bair or dair?
1:03 - when i got range on him, i went back in a little, and decided to laser, i need to get better about spacing in general i think, like i got the space, but miss-used it.
1:38 - had him on the ropes, but i backed off, should have went for ledge
1:44 - herp derp
1:52 - dont approach from above like that, he easily reacted with a move that hits above
2:28 - ran into a forward smash, idk why i do that so much, that or see i can get smashed, so i try to run away and i get tippered or something. should i put up my shield, and if he doesnt approach wavedash out?
2:40 - didnt think he had a jump, should have re-got invincibility and rolled later
2:57 - i wanted to jab, and then follow up with dair or bair, but i jumped for some reason idk
3:05 - i infiltrated but backed off to laser (my friend 'fro said i make to many defensive movements in a row, like once i have an opportunity i go defensive again)\
3:40 - i keep wavedashing away when i shine a grab attempt, i should wavedash in so i can follow up (notice i try multiple times to follow up after the wavedash away, and get grabbed for it)
3:54 - didnt notice i was about to get hit, was dying down for the fast fall
4:00 - i need to remember to di before i even get hit (in case i do)
4:07 - should have tried to get to the ledge
4:39 - herp derp invincibility frames
4:54 - didnt react fast enough for di
5:30 - idk why i keep putting up shield and letting it down, its like i changed my mind, but instead of moving, put my shield up again, maybe it was jitters or something, i dont even remember what i was thinking
5:43 - wanted to wavedash onto ledge, but i wanted to shorten it so i didnt sd
5:57 - nair was the wrong option, i should have just jumped one more time and then rolled i think
6:09 - again wavedashed ooshine in a defensive manner, then decided to approach
6:18 - i know i tried to do an aerial defensively, but not in place
last hit - got caught going in, flubbed the m2k angle
7:27 - again with the not knowing if he had a jump, i need to just stay on the ledge till hes dead from now on
7:44 - no di cuz im bad
8:54 - i didnt wanna jump, just run off nair
9:00 - should have just grabbed
9:00-9:08 - lost momentum, and couldnt move very well
9:26 - again, sweet spotting was safe but i tried to mix up and attack him with it...derp
9:32 - technical error - the wavedash was short, and didnt dash b4 the sh nair (tried to approach with invincibility)
9:41 - tried to uptilt, should have shined
9:54 - the dash attack in the wrong direction was supposed to be a bair, but i didnt jump idk y
10:07 - the jump cancel grab i wanted turned into a full hop nair
10:25 on - choked

also to the stuff about this, waveshine oos is not hard just practice it like this; shield+ hold down -> slide from y -> b to practice the timing -> wavedash straight down.
as you get that timing down -> add the down on cstick as you jump (for the shine)
and after you get that timing down -> wavedash to a side instead of straight down

you dont see me do it in this match like at all i think, but thats cuz that **** doesnt work on marth, i do it very consistently vs spacies.

 

[Palpi]

Your first recovering up-B should've been a mew2king angle.

Also, you need to get more consistent on your offense against marth, too many shines where you missed the grab (uthrow) or you missed the uair.

You seem to force the Marth killer. It is useful, but you tried it in some situation where he had his second jump and you could have done some better options. Watch mango vs taj, if mango does a regular get up from the ledge and shines marth who up-b's onto the stage before marth lands, so he gets shined without a 2nd jump.

you looked nervous to punish some of his fsmashes. If you shield an fsmash, wave dash oos to grab. Once you get marth in the air, don't stop.

He hit you with too many random fsmashes

 

[Wenbobular]

Sometimes it looks like a situation where you can do a bit of dashdancing after you get a hit in and keep the pressure up, but you opt to just like ... run away and shoot lasers <_<?

Also the edgeguarding could be a bit better, there are a few times where he should clearly just be dead. Get a bit better at judging when they have no choice but to up-b and you have 2 or 3 easy stocks. There's also a stock on Yoshi's where you have the ledge and he's too close below where you should've just shinespiked, and even then he does an early up-b and invites you to shinespike him again xD

There are few times when you're recovering where it's pretty clear that he's giving up the straight at the ledge with Firefox option and the shorten your illusion (if you can't do it, learn it, it's real good) to get the ledge option, both of which you should gladly take ESPECIALLY given that you're not bad at ledgedashing (props)

Your ledgedashing is aite (props again for having usable ledgedashes and not being afraid to use them) but they're not quite on the level of "so cheap that Marth will be utterly terrified of a Fox on the ledge" ... right now they're squarely in "usable but nothing to be scared of" territory because you're not quite there in terms of fluidity which plays a big role in how far and how many actionable invincibility frames you get

Basically you need to get them smoother (get off the ledge a little faster, make the waveland look like a wavedash) if you really want to cheap out people with ledgedashing - almost every Marth I've played will by default short hop or crouch in front of the ledge trying to slam all your ledgehop options, both of which get totally hosed by ledgedash upsmash or Nair

Did I mention shortening the illusion -> perfect ledgedash upsmash is basically like the cheapest thing you can do when recovering?

Also there are probably a few things missing in terms of punishment and onstage game (also reactions to getting hit, you sidestep a lot) that I'm not terribly great at so I can't really comment too much on that

 

[Sizzle]

How do you practice breaking out of grabs? Voorhese was breaking out quite a lot in those matches. I have never gotten into the habit of doing it, and whenever I do try, it feels like I'm flailing my fingers with no real precision.

 

[voorhese]

i push buttons and mash directions very fast

 

[L__]

I was thinking back on some matches I had against Scar awhile ago

dashdancing and nairs scare me

 

[crush]

I was thinking back on some matches I had against Scar awhile ago

dashdancing and nairs scare me

Take him to pokefloats and laser camp him.

Btw your avatar is scary it'd be swell if you changed it.

 

[mers]

Weird thought: can you use the lightshield edgehog on Sheik's up-B stall if she goes straight up from the ledge? I know she can pull back from the edge and the stall still works, but most Sheik players don't do this.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

doesn't even matter. she grabs the edge instantly while you fall.

edit- assuming it could be done

 

[Palpi]

Yeah, my friend tried it on me, and it never worked.

 

[Proskater]

How do you practice breaking out of grabs? Voorhese was breaking out quite a lot in those matches. I have never gotten into the habit of doing it, and whenever I do try, it feels like I'm flailing my fingers with no real precision.

I press A B X and Y with my right thumb and rotate the control stick while mashing the R and L buttons. Works wonders.

 

[Max?]

I'm pretty sure if you rotate the Cstick in a complete motion it counts as either 8 or 16 inputs. Mash buttons and rotate the Cstick while holding the control stick in the direction you want to DI assuming you can't break out of the throw.

 

[crush]

And mash every button but b so you don't side b off the stage


?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Take him to pokefloats and laser camp him.

Btw your avatar is scary it'd be swell if you changed it.

L is too good.

 

[crush]

L is too good.

L is too real

2401

 

[Druggedfox]

Rotating the C-stick does *not* help you break out of grabs more quickly

 

[Max?]

If it isn't the Cstick isn't it the control stick? A few people have mentioned this to me, and I've always been under the impression it worked.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

control stick works, cstick doesnt.

 

[Palpi]

Druggedfox dropping lies.

 

[Strong Badam]

control stick works, cstick doesnt.

Strong Bad confirmed.

 

[Druggedfox]

Druggedfox dropping lies.

nope, I never do that

 

[Winston]

So can anybody full hop AC bair onto the dreamland platforms consistently? and would this be useful for anything at all?

 

[voorhese]

ive never tired, but i dont think it would be as good as ledgehop waveland or something like that, sorry i missread that, i was thinking from ledge. yeah it would be good for spacing out people above you i would think

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

full bar ACs on DL's platforms? GODLY!!!!

 

[Silent Wolf]

full bar ACs on DL's platforms? GODLY!!!!

Lol yea thats what i was thinking.

if someone is shielding on the ground, you can land behind them with an auto canceled bair from a full jump and touch their shield a bit. it can be useful as a mix up sometimes if you think theyre gonna shield like that when you jump. just thought id mention that since he mention AC bairs

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol thanks for quoting me SW so i can see how badly i butchered that sentence. To make me feel better everyone should refer to fullhop bairs as full bars

 

[EWC]

Weak AC bairs can give you some really really disgustingly good combo setups so pretty much any time you can do them it's good.