Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Fenrir VII]

The tail of thunder is not applicable for every gimping situation, and as such is fairly easily avoidable... and the normal hit sends fox up... so the gimping nature of PK thunder is pretty laughable, really...

PKT2 being argued as an uncounterable attack, an amazing mindgame, or really, a great move is equally laughable. I mean come on...

That said, Ness's Fair is a good zoning tool for in front of him, but he has VERY few options against Fox's higher jumps, so FH and even double jumping is actually an ok strat... Yes, his grab kills, but his grab range is very poor... and his recovery is incredibly beatable, if you use your brain at all...

and if you can catch a ness approaching, or standard zoning with fair, you can reaction dash shield usmash it sometimes... very situational, and I'm not really incorporating this into the matchup, as I am just saying something that might be helpful.

Ness dies really early, and otherwise, t's a fairly even fight... I'd prefer it not to be in Ness's favor at all, really... not a hard match, if you know it..

 

[Lightning93]

Lol Fenrir saves the day. Both boards make strong points, but honestly gimping Ness isn't hard, although if you manage to screw up you are going to suffer. I find Ness spike nearly impossible to recover from, but shine stalls, incorporated with rising F-airs and illusions (even a well placed Firefox can be hard to gimp) I believe makes Ness' gimping game harder to pull off, although Fox's recovery is far from special.

For reasons stated previously about Ness' excellent spacing tools and knockback power, compared to Fox's speed and superior ground game, honestly makes it harder for the Fox to win. Fox can definitely win this one, but the point is he will have to try harder and overall need more skill than Ness requires to beat Fox. This includes the gimping game debated about previously, Fox will need more skill to gimp and recover than Ness requires, but at top play Fox's gimping game I believe is better.

 

[Toronto Joe]

lol i just 2stocked my friends Fox with Ness,whom i never use in brawl

55;45 Ness sounds good to me, what do you guys think?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

im all for 45:55 Ness if thats the agreement, i don't find him that hard either, just he can be very annyoing, like Sonic....

 

[_clinton]

The tail of thunder is not applicable for every gimping situation, and as such is fairly easily avoidable... and the normal hit sends fox up... so the gimping nature of PK thunder is pretty laughable, really...

I'll admit for this game the idea of gimping with Thunder does seem laughable...except for when it comes to stage spikes using the head at least...

Of course my main goal with using Thunder in general really is just an attempt to limit and annoy you to the point where you mess up...

PKT2 being argued as an uncounterable attack, an amazing mindgame, or really, a great move is equally laughable. I mean come on...

Again...the idea of it being uncounterale amazing mind game is really all about spacing and how and where you use PKT and what your target is doing ATM...

That said, Ness's Fair is a good zoning tool for in front of him, but he has VERY few options against Fox's higher jumps, so FH and even double jumping is actually an ok strat... Yes, his grab kills, but his grab range is very poor... and his recovery is incredibly beatable, if you use your brain at all...

And if the Ness user uses their brain at all...it won't really be as easy as you think to gimp them...

And what makes you think Ness is limited to foes coming in from above on him? Ness' blind spot as far as his air game goes is really if anything just below him...because Dair takes a while to come out...and even then I would question just how open that area really is...

Ness dies really early, and otherwise, t's a fairly even fight... I'd prefer it not to be in Ness's favor at all, really... not a hard match, if you know it..

Dies really early...% wise he is more mid weight then he is light weight...and as far as gimping goes overall for the most part I see them as sort of even...

Lol Fenrir saves the day. Both boards make strong points, but honestly gimping Ness isn't hard, although if you manage to screw up you are going to suffer. I find Ness spike nearly impossible to recover from, but shine stalls, incorporated with rising F-airs and illusions (even a well placed Firefox can be hard to gimp) I believe makes Ness' gimping game harder to pull off, although Fox's recovery is far from special.

I would avoid trying to out stall Ness...PK Flash as far as mind games goes sort of sways from too much stalling...as far as gimp games go Ness' main strat is more of a waiting one...you can go out far if you want...but its too much work IMO after that to make sure your *** is covered in case you screw up ^_^

For reasons stated previously about Ness' excellent spacing tools and knockback power, compared to Fox's speed and superior ground game, honestly makes it harder for the Fox to win. Fox can definitely win this one, but the point is he will have to try harder and overall need more skill than Ness requires to beat Fox. This includes the gimping game debated about previously, Fox will need more skill to gimp and recover than Ness requires, but at top play Fox's gimping game I believe is better.

How does Fox have a better ground game again?

 

[Sorgens]

How does Fox have a better ground game again?

Pretty sure Ness has extremely terrible ground moves compared to Fox. The only thing worth mentioning is Ness' f-smash and that is so **** slow. Fox on the other hand has an amazing d-smash and u-smash and really good f-smash when used appropriately. It's easy to juggle with Fox's u-tilt and he has a decent f-tilt.

To be honest I have yet to fight a "good" Ness but I guess on paper it seems that they are pretty even in my opinion. They have a lot of parallels and where one is better the other is stronger elsewhere. I'd call it 50:50.

 

[_clinton]

Pretty sure Ness has extremely terrible ground moves compared to Fox. The only thing worth mentioning is Ness' f-smash and that is so **** slow. Fox on the other hand has an amazing d-smash and u-smash and really good f-smash when used appropriately. It's easy to juggle with Fox's u-tilt and he has a decent f-tilt.

To be honest I have yet to fight a "good" Ness but I guess on paper it seems that they are pretty even in my opinion. They have a lot of parallels and where one is better the other is stronger elsewhere. I'd call it 50:50.

Under estimating Ness' ground game...I blame that issue on people comparing Ness to Lucas...the truth is they both have good air and ground games...its just that Lucas has a somewhat better ground game (only because of speed though really) and Ness has a somewhat better air game (although I find his blind spot to be more annoying then Lucas' main blind spot)

Ness' 1st two hits on his jabs can be cancelled to add into all of his tilts or a grab pretty well...and he has a jab lock as well...the jab comes out on frame 3 if that means anything and has an ok rapid fire move...but speaking of tilts...overall the 3rd hit is the boring part of the jab IMO...

Ness' utilt juggles as well if you want to look at Fox and his juggling and it also happens to have pretty good priority and range for it as well (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190639). Ness' dtilt has an auto trip 50% of the time and is fast, overall it is also pretty good for restoring stale moves overall it is pretty useful if someone has a shield up as well, because of how low it hits. Ness' ftilt is really the only one that seems kind of bland to me, but even it has its good sides (it clanks with just about everything).

Ness' smash attacks...the fact that you think that only the baseball bat is good says something...the yoyo tricks are overall fast coming out (9 and 10 for up and down) and overall can punish the hell out of those who spot dodge or roll...hell the fact that Ness' dsmash covers his back 1st says mind games still...but hey if you still think the yoyo sucks...why don't you look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJHtfk8gK1U) yoyo spikes make coming up from or staying by the ledge a mind game as well ^_^ don't drop from the ledge is what I'm saying...Ness' bat is rather boring compared to the yoyo...it reflects projectiles, has pretty good kill power for the most part, and has good spacing tricks (think Falcon and Mario and how their Fsmashs have good spacing tricks)...but that is all really...the yoyos only real downsides are low KO power and you yourself are left open if you miss with the charge.

Ness' dash attack is also good, range wise it is a little off from PK Fire's range (of course the fact that Ness moves forward seems to have issues as well), it comes out fast (frame 7) and has 3 hit boxes, still can be punished somewhat if you miss though.

Looking into Ness' grabs...the dash grab (oh this one is by far the best dash grab in this game, funny how it sucked in Melee huh?) and the pivot grab (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215606) are both very good grabs to make up for Ness' somewhat normal standing grab.

Really I can't see how you think Ness has a bad ground game...but whatever maybe Fox does beat him by a little bit (Usmash is that ***)

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

OMG!!! We should totally have a Wi-Fi tournament to settle this!!!!!!

Just Kidding!

I feel as if I'm too late to make any comments to help Fox's side because it seems as if all the major points have been hit. Hopefully next match-up I will be on the ball.

45:55 or even sounds good to me though.

 

[_clinton]

Meh...like I said the Ness boards said 6:4 and looking at the posts in this I wonder how many others seem to agree with them or more...

 

[Exceladon City]

The yoyo tricks are overall fast coming out (9 and 10 for up and down) and overall can punish the hell out of those who spot dodge or roll...hell the fact that Ness' dsmash covers his back 1st says mind games still...

I will agree with that. The yoyo is possible one of the more annoying smash attacks I've had to put up with. The delayed start on it will throw plenty of people off.

 

[Lightning93]

Waiting for permission before repost...

 

[_clinton]

Lightning93...You could just ask Mmac for his (Yoshi boards) he has been giving them to most of the boards anyway IIRC

I will agree with that. The yoyo is possible one of the more annoying smash attacks I've had to put up with. The delayed start on it will throw plenty of people off.

Meh...it isn't that slow...MK's and Mario's Dsmash is frame 5...4-5 frames off isn't that bad...its just that you can hold it...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

its nice to see pika is still LOL.

 

[Exceladon City]

its nice to see pika is still LOL.

It's a nice warning for up and coming Fox mains. AVOID THE PIKA. I honestly hate that rat with a passion. I'd rather Raichu be in the game. I'd play as Raichu.

 

[_clinton]

Play as Ness and lulz at Pika...

 

[Exceladon City]

Play as Ness and lulz at Pika...

I'll pick Pit or Wolf or Falco and lulz at Pikasneeze.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Ness will probably combo you, since he can. For example, he can combo with his uair by using it twice after his second jump when timed correctly at low percents. He has three potential killers: uair, bair, and b-throw. Watch for these. If you're being predictable with dair, you WILL be punished.

No blaster because of PSI Magnet.

Better to block PK Fire than reflect it. If you reflect, it won't hit Ness unless you're up close and personal, and Ness can and will punish you for it.

Ness is very gimpable; watch out though. If you accidentally get yourself hit by PKT2, that's NO good.

But Ness, like you, suffers from range. Use your speed to your advantage; be aggresive, but also keep an eye on him. He's got a bag of tricks (literally XP) up his sleeve, and as always, you CANNOT be predictable. If he puts you in the air, stay defensive; his aerials outprioritize yours, and it's just too risky. Just keep your distance, because Ness is good at beating you up close. Nevertheless, this one should be in the bag if you play it smart.

60:40, Fox.

EDIT: Probably my best description of a matchup yet :D

 

[_clinton]

Ness is pretty good on defense as well...Nair sort of makes that for the most part...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah like peach and luigi he can Nair out of combos.

also blaster can cause some openings for greedy Ness', possibly.

 

[Timbers]

Alright guys I thought we would need a matchup image eventually so I went ahead and made one basing it off the Lucario board's layout.

The GIF sucks balls, but I can always fix it later. It supposed to be a FLAMEDASH.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/lightning39/FoxMatchup2.gif?t=1232665201

Enjoy!

ok few things.

1) You didn't make it. It's pretty apparent that you copied the image exactly, as I personally went through and rendered each character to their respective slot. Yours looks completely the same, except for the Lucario, which is also out of proportion and doesn't follow the bevel/smoothness at all.

2) On top of that, you didn't even throw your own numbers on there. Characters like marth and GaW are using my own font, for example, while characters that didn't compliment Luc's matchups (Sheik, ZSS for example) have a much different bevel and font.

3) So yeah don't say you made it, pretty hilarious.

4) Use a better colorbit on the .gif, that's pretty nasty.

5) What was so wrong with asking us (me) for the .psd?

 

[_clinton]

yeah like peach and luigi he can Nair out of combos.

also blaster can cause some openings for greedy Ness', possibly.

At least Ness' Nair has less KO power then Peach's and Weegee's...still a fresh one can kill somewhat...not much though...

And to be fair...any easy reading can cause trouble for anyone (to be fair Ness' Magnet is just to prevent the stupid use of moves what I mean is...overall Magnet is a somewhat lack luster move)

 

[Lightning93]

ok few things.

1) You didn't make it. It's pretty apparent that you copied the image exactly, as I personally went through and rendered each character to their respective slot. Yours looks completely the same, except for the Lucario, which is also out of proportion and doesn't follow the bevel/smoothness at all.

2) On top of that, you didn't even throw your own numbers on there. Characters like marth and GaW are using my own font, for example, while characters that didn't compliment Luc's matchups (Sheik, ZSS for example) have a much different bevel and font.

3) So yeah don't say you made it, pretty hilarious.

4) Use a better colorbit on the .gif, that's pretty nasty.

5) What was so wrong with asking us (me) for the .psd?

1. I don't deny this, I rushed the post, and I apologize, for I should have said edited. I am not pro with Adobe Photoshop, and I noticed the Fox boards was lacking their own image, so I went ahead and EDITED one.

2. I edited what I saw needed to be done, if it really looks horrible I apologize. It was a lot better than our old one, and I didn't want M@V to go through the trouble of having to make another one.

3. Okay fine then, I edited it, POORLY. I'm sorry I offended you.

4. Tch, first time working with gif. images, I honestly do not know much about this, and I wanted to keep to a simple design. My friend suggested to me to edit the .gif with Gimp, so I went ahead and did, and lost some quality in the process.

5. I recall seeing a chart similar to yours, which is where I got the Lucario pic from. I didn't know anyone particularly owned the mathcup chart. I had thought all Character boards had a similar template of which to base theirs off on. There's nothing wrong with asking, which if you're implying I should have, I should have.

Obviously my post was a disgrace to both the Lucario and Fox boards, so I shall take the pic down, and hope someone else will make us a better looking one in the future. Unless you're okay with me taking the .gif down and keeping it simple?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

At least Ness' Nair has less KO power then Peach's and Weegee's...still a fresh one can kill somewhat...not much though...

And to be fair...any easy reading can cause trouble for anyone (to be fair Ness' Magnet is just to prevent the stupid use of moves what I mean is...overall Magnet is a somewhat lack luster move)

yeah fresh ones could be nasty. and yesh easy readings go both ways, thats just to say a laser shot at random here and there could add something. after all i just don't negate not using Dins at all on G@W or the motherkids just cause they can absorb it.

Fox shouldn't be standing there firing away at Ness anyway unless he wants you to heal for moar myndgames. lol

btw does anyone now know why YI melee is possibly a bad stage for Ness?

 

[Timbers]

1. I don't deny this, I rushed the post, and I apologize, for I should have said edited. I am not pro with Adobe Photoshop, and I noticed the Fox boards was lacking their own image, so I went ahead and EDITED one.

2. I edited what I saw needed to be done, if it really looks horrible I apologize. It was a lot better than our old one, and I didn't want M@V to go through the trouble of having to make another one.

3. Okay fine then, I edited it, POORLY. I'm sorry I offended you.

4. Tch, first time working with gif. images, I honestly do not know much about this, and I wanted to keep to a simple design. My friend suggested to me to edit the .gif with Gimp, so I went ahead and did, and lost some quality in the process.

5. I recall seeing a chart similar to yours, which is where I got the Lucario pic from. I didn't know anyone particularly owned the mathcup chart. I had thought all Character boards had a similar template of which to base theirs off on. There's nothing wrong with asking, which if you're implying I should have, I should have.

Obviously my post was a disgrace to both the Lucario and Fox boards, so I shall take the pic down, and hope someone else will make us a better looking one in the future. Unless you're okay with me taking the .gif down and keeping it simple?

I don't know where you're getting the impression that I was saying it was edited poorly, I just said it was edited. Higher colorbits makes .gifs more appealing, albeit a larger file size. All I really said about your edit.

I'll assure you the chart is exclusive to Luc boards, as I made it lol. I don't mind handing the .psd file out to anyone so long as it's credited, but in order to work with .psd you'll need photoshop, so you'd either need to get it or have another Fox that uses Photoshop edit it for you.

and yeah I wasn't offended or didn't think of it as a disgrace in the slightest, just pointing out some errors on how you executed this.

 

[Lightning93]

I don't know where you're getting the impression that I was saying it was edited poorly, I just said it was edited. Higher colorbits makes .gifs more appealing, albeit a larger file size. All I really said about your edit.

I'll assure you the chart is exclusive to Luc boards, as I made it lol. I don't mind handing the .psd file out to anyone so long as it's credited, but in order to work with .psd you'll need photoshop, so you'd either need to get it or have another Fox that uses Photoshop edit it for you.

and yeah I wasn't offended or didn't think of it as a disgrace in the slightest, just pointing out some errors on how you executed this.

Oh I okay, I was assuming when you said parts of my chart were hilarious and nasty I assumed you didn't like it.

I actually edited the chart with Adobe Photoshop. I had to create some numbers that your mactup chart didn't have such as 25:70 30:70 and 70:30, and I found another image of Lucario and added in the background myself.

I understand I need to take out the .gif, but I actually like the way it turned out. If you don't mind I will re-upload it, and be sure to give you credit.

EDIT: I fixed Lucario to fit more within the original design of the chart. And edited out the .gif and gave very special thanks to Timbers for our wonderful chart, although I will be the one editing and updating it from now on.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/lightning39/FoxMatchup.png?t=1232686019

 

[Timbers]

Naw I thought it was funny when I previously believed that you were trying to pass the chart off as your own creation.

Is there a reason why you don't want the .psd file? It'd be much more easier to just edit it that way and overall more consistant...

 

[Yanoss1313]

*shrugs* i don't know about anyone else, but i prefer the old chart >.<

 

[Timbers]

you can use this one if you want, or not, doesn't make a difference to me.

I just wiped the chart clean and uploaded it. If you want to use the .png you can, it'll probably be easier that way since the chart itself doesn't really need any editing, just color and number updates which you seemed to have proven is easy enough to do without the .psd.

So yer use it if you want:

[thumbnail]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/foxchartcopy.png

 

[Lightning93]

Big thanks to Timbers here:

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/lightning39/foxchartcopy.png?t=1232692436

I think it looks great, although my editing of the numbers is a bit inconsistent at times. If I could I would love the .psd file sometime.

 

[Zhamy]

Pikachu is still "LOL." All is well in the world.

 

[Fenrir VII]

With absolutely perfect play from Fox, Pika isn't terrible... unfortunately, it's incredibly hard to space and play that well...
If pika could grab out of QAC (read "quack"), it'd be much harder, but PIka's grab range is REALLY bad... so yeah. still a bad match. : /


And PSI magnet doesn't mean you can't blaster spam.. it really doesn't even discourage it, as if Ness uses it, he is granting the third fastest character in the game a chance to come hit him... all to absorb 2%. nice one, Ness.

Ness's nair is much less scary than say Luigi's, since it doesn't have a HUGE lasting hitbox. It also trades with, rather than beats, Fox's aerials, so it's really not bad. It's lacking in range, so it can be out spaced, or shield usmashed, if the Ness player just spams it to get out of combos.

I still say Ness gets beat from both above and below... if you approach from the side with much other than a shield or a well-spaced Bair, he wrecks you.

Really can't see how this could possible be in Ness's favor. : /

Also, _Clinton is either Simna, or scarily just like him... >.>

 

[Zhamy]

Also, _Clinton is either Simna, or scarily just like him... >.>

We all know he's a Ness fanboy. Also, Ness's "blind spots" for his aerials are punishable, but Fox often won't be in a position to do that. (It's not Lucas where most of his attacks are linear.)

 

[_clinton]

And PSI magnet doesn't mean you can't blaster spam.. it really doesn't even discourage it, as if Ness uses it, he is granting the third fastest character in the game a chance to come hit him... all to absorb 2%. nice one, Ness.

A. Ness can also just "duck and cover" under the blaster
B. Magnet Cancel

Again...any predictable use of the Blaster won't work on Ness

Also it is 3.5% restored when fresh not 2%

Ness's nair is much less scary than say Luigi's, since it doesn't have a HUGE lasting hitbox. It also trades with, rather than beats, Fox's aerials, so it's really not bad. It's lacking in range, so it can be out spaced, or shield usmashed, if the Ness player just spams it to get out of combos.

A HUGE lasting hitbox doesn't matter when you can fling off 2 of these moves in a single short hop anyway...and BTW what "true combos" does Fox have anyway if you don't mind my asking? Also the power hit of Ness' Nair lasts longer then Weegee's (Weegee's Nair is only 3 frames...Ness' is 9 frames)...it only trades for the most part when it is the weak hit...

I still say Ness gets beat from both above and below... if you approach from the side with much other than a shield or a well-spaced Bair, he wrecks you.

You may want to check that again...Ness' blind spot is right below him in the air (because of how slow Dair is) Ness has things to cover his head pretty well

Also, _Clinton is either Simna, or scarily just like him... >.>

???

We all know he's a Ness fanboy. Also, Ness's "blind spots" for his aerials are punishable, but Fox often won't be in a position to do that. (It's not Lucas where most of his attacks are linear.)

How am I a "Ness Fanboy?"

 

[Zhamy]

How am I a "Ness Fanboy?"

We only say it because we love you for participating the matchup discussion.

 

[_clinton]

We only say it because we love you for participating the matchup discussion.

Ok then whatever...I was hoping to get some actual lulz from your response...

 

[Fenrir VII]

A. Ness can also just "duck and cover" under the blaster
B. Magnet Cancel

Again...any predictable use of the Blaster won't work on Ness

Also it is 3.5% restored when fresh not 2%

A. No huge advantage here... whoever is losing must approach, and since Fox is already moving, and Ness is force to be stationary, Fox has a small advantage
B. still has lag... still is punishable, and isn't worth it.

We can still use blaster to apply pressure and refill moves... which is its best use anyway... >.>

After the first hit, blaster starts doing an integer value of 2% for the next few shots... so MOST of the time, it will do 2%... : / not sure why you said that.

A HUGE lasting hitbox doesn't matter when you can fling off 2 of these moves in a single short hop anyway...and BTW what "true combos" does Fox have anyway if you don't mind my asking? Also the power hit of Ness' Nair lasts longer then Weegee's (Weegee's Nair is only 3 frames...Ness' is 9 frames)...it only trades for the most part when it is the weak hit...

we're talking about Nair as a combo breaker... how many times you can do it in a SH is irrelevant. It also doesn't really matter how long the strong hit is... the worst part of Weeg's Nair is it's priority and length of attack... it also has more range than Ness's... Ness's nair isn't nearly as bad... and Luigi's is beatable.

true combos as in consecutive hits or what? Fox has many more working "combos" than "true" ones, but to list "true" ones off the top of my head...

Dair > Jab
Dair > utilt
Dair > dsmash
Dair > Usmash
Dair > grab

Nair > Utilt
Nair > Grab (?)
Weak Nair > Usmash
Possibly other Nair combos... not sure if they're "true"

Bair > utilt
Possibly other Bair combos... not sure if they're "true"

They were talking about Fair to double jump fair as a true combo... not sure about that.

And these are all at varying percentages... all the ones I listed do combo.

You may want to check that again...Ness' blind spot is right below him in the air (because of how slow Dair is) Ness has things to cover his head pretty well

Such as?

And yeah, I mentioned from below him, too...

 

[_clinton]

A. No huge advantage here... whoever is losing must approach, and since Fox is already moving, and Ness is force to be stationary, Fox has a small advantage
B. still has lag... still is punishable, and isn't worth it.

A. My point is that it is meant for "stupid use" of spammy moves
B. A spot dodge/other stuff that is able to be done OoS is punishable?

We can still use blaster to apply pressure and refill moves... which is its best use anyway... >.>

After the first hit, blaster starts doing an integer value of 2% for the next few shots... so MOST of the time, it will do 2%... : / not sure why you said that.

Magnet's refil rate is 1.5x the damage that the move would have done...I'm just saying the move wouldn't restore 2%...just 3.5%

we're talking about Nair as a combo breaker... how many times you can do it in a SH is irrelevant. It also doesn't really matter how long the strong hit is... the worst part of Weeg's Nair is it's priority and length of attack... it also has more range than Ness's... Ness's nair isn't nearly as bad... and Luigi's is beatable.

true combos as in consecutive hits or what? Fox has many more working "combos" than "true" ones, but to list "true" ones off the top of my head...

True combos are moves that link together and the game says they are consecutive hits in training mode...so things like Ness' Dair to Nair at an early % or so is a true combo...or Falco's Dash attack to Usmash is a true combo...are you sure Dair leads to "true combos"

Such as?

Uair for one...plus the fact that staying in the air right above Ness is just a bad idea for most of the cast in general as well because of things like PK Thunder...hell "Quick Flash" works sometimes as well for plenty of characters...

 

[Fenrir VII]

A. My point is that it is meant for "stupid use" of spammy moves
B. A spot dodge/other stuff that is able to be done OoS is punishable?

we're talking in a tournament situation at high level play, so stupid use shouldn't really factor in..
First of all, yes it is. secondly, if you start trying to magnet the laser, it still has lag, even if you cancel it... Fox is one of the fastest and most efficient punishers in the game... not a good idea, if the Fox player can predict it at all...

Magnet's refil rate is 1.5x the damage that the move would have done...I'm just saying the move wouldn't restore 2%...just 3.5%

Ah... yeah, my fault here. : /

True combos are moves that link together and the game says they are consecutive hits in training mode...so things like Ness' Dair to Nair at an early % or so is a true combo...or Falco's Dash attack to Usmash is a true combo...are you sure Dair leads to "true combos"

That is the definition I was using... I was just making sure. and yes, I am completely sure all of the dair combos I listed are true combos... including Usmash around 90%... which is in killing range.

Uair for one...plus the fact that staying in the air right above Ness is just a bad idea for most of the cast in general as well because of things like PK Thunder...hell "Quick Flash" works sometimes as well for plenty of characters...

Everything you just stated is telegraphed and punishable. Fox has a Dair that can combo into many things, as stated above... that mixed with shine stalling andFox's fast falling speed simply beats the moves you stated... Uair has a use in that, if we shine stall before you jump, you can hit us out of it... if you jump first, we get a free dair combo or other something... PKthunder and flash are just airdodged to a dair or usmash... given Fox's falling speed, we have time to do something like that.
While you have options, I believe the Fox player has more here.

 

[_clinton]

we're talking in a tournament situation at high level play, so stupid use shouldn't really factor in..
First of all, yes it is. secondly, if you start trying to magnet the laser, it still has lag, even if you cancel it... Fox is one of the fastest and most efficient punishers in the game... not a good idea, if the Fox player can predict it at all...

Ok let me put it a different way then sense I seem to have a misunderstanding with you...

PSI Magnet is really nothing more then a "safety blanket" however it does serve its main use...which is to force others to come to Ness overall...put simple...Fox is the one who has to come to Ness most of the time in this match up...the only reason Ness should have to come to Fox is really if he is behind in the main match...

Oh and while you may be thinking it isn't much...as far as skills go PSI Magnet's lag cancel is overall the main reason why PSI Magnet doesn't suck anymore...it still is a meh move...but it does serve a purpose (people spamming up close to try and take advantage of the cool down time)

That is the definition I was using... I was just making sure. and yes, I am completely sure all of the dair combos I listed are true combos... including Usmash around 90%... which is in killing range.

Well now the question is...which is harder to land a down air to Usmash combo that has to be perfect...or a grab?

Everything you just stated is telegraphed and punishable. Fox has a Dair that can combo into many things, as stated above... that mixed with shine stalling andFox's fast falling speed simply beats the moves you stated... Uair has a use in that, if we shine stall before you jump, you can hit us out of it... if you jump first, we get a free dair combo or other something... PKthunder and flash are just airdodged to a dair or usmash... given Fox's falling speed, we have time to do something like that.
While you have options, I believe the Fox player has more here.

Of course the fact that Utilt protects Ness on the ground is another reason why I feel Ness' head area isn't open to just being beat up...

And you seem to lack info on how fast quick flash is...the cool down time is 26 frames...tell me how much time it takes to air dodge and then Usmash when you hit the ground...and do note that the Ness for the most part will be trying things like getting you with the tail...I mean screw the head when the tail is the star of the show...

Of course their is always the option of just backing away and throwing out a yoyo or something of that nature as well...or you know...a shield

 

[gantrain05]

man...ness's "head region" is always susceptible to a beating...i mean seriously. its like a freakin orange on a toothpick, fox ***** ness's head.