Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Conviction]

Well the Ness player in the tournaments I frequent has a pretty good Ness. Ness' PKT2 will end Fox and it'll do it at fairly low percents. Like 45% or so. Back Throw is his kill throw and if you're not careful PKF combos will cause problems. Ness' Bair is also a pain if sweetspotted. Which is something he didn't do too often in my match against him. Grab Ness out of Fairs and punish PKT2's that have an off trajectory and recoveries that don't quite make it to the edge.


I have a video of a match against him so if you want to use that as a basic reference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvN3xHZs468

I'm not really sure if we should base-off this match >.> (no offense) I can name things that were bad on the Fox's side and I bet the Ness can name things for the Ness.

I have to stress this though why do all these vids of Fox most people put up their Fox does standing lasers? You know this only leaves you run away due to ending lag of standing lasers, and you run by dodge rolling, don't get me wrong dodge rolling has its places. But actually a simple foxtrot away serves as a good dodge manuver, it gives you more options than a dodge roll. I see the reason you end up dodge rolling is because you place yourself at the end of the stage. Which brings me to 2 points. SHDL gives you a lagless land, and due to this you can actually space you're in mid-range with SHDL, so you won't always end at the edge of the stage. Lastly, you seem to use the dodge roll as your main source of movement, and I already metion you don't have much options out of it.

There are many more things I could say but..... this is the critique thread (if you post there I'll give you the full load down.) Sorry, about this but its been bothering forever.

Now continue on with the match-up discussion.

P.S. I would take ness to: BF,Corneria,Halberd, and Delfino.

 

[Exceladon City]

YI enjoys ****ing PK Thunder if it ****s anything...PK Fire is fine...



Nah...Most of these stages are just fine for Ness...BF pumps up his air game a lot (although Fox's usmash can hit through the 1st platform) and actually adds to his PK Thunder mind tricks, LM makes PK Fire go from an ok move to a very fine move...Corneria...well I guess that would be in Fox's area (Bloody Usmash of Fox and the whole KO power it packs)...still its not like Ness is limited in kill power for that area as well...

Lylat is pretty annoying...but it does add a whole extra bag of tricks to Ness' edge guard game at least...I don't play on YI Melee that much and I'm aware of what makes Ness hate Frigate somewhat



Meh...

Yeah it's not the best. But like I said basic reference. I'm sure better Fox's will post vids.

-IBLIS-
Well I don't fight Ness to often and from what I've seen with him his PKT can **** alot of his foes. Well I look at it like this "Every percent counts" so if I do fire standing lasers it's because I want to rack up damage. SHDL doesn't seem to help me much if I'm trying to rack up damage against smaller characters like Ness. I don't like to put myself at risk for sounding like a noob especially around people who are much more experienced and more critical than I but for future reference, what is foxtrotting?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i shoot standing lasers at ledgecamping DDD waddledees to stall, is that so wrong? >.>

also isnt Ness Fair spaced unpunishable though? its how they poke my Zelda

 

[Conviction]

I see both of your guys reasons but, you can lure people into the air. Example: Ness is trying to read you and starts walling a Bair, SHDL works there. But I'm just gonna cut this arguemet short I didn't want this to be an arguement. If you guys want to dicuss more let's take this to Critique thread.

P.S. I guess it depends on your playstyle to, mine makes my opponet very airborne so maybe that's why I find SHDL very useful.

 

[_clinton]

i shoot standing lasers at ledgecamping DDD waddledees to stall, is that so wrong? >.>

also isnt Ness Fair spaced unpunishable though? its how they poke my Zelda

Yep...to a point...The hit box of Fair depends on how Ness himself moves when using it...try a retreating C-stick Fair and then try an approaching C-stick Fair to see what I mean...the hit box changes a lot

 

[Zhamy]

what is foxtrotting

For some characters, the initial dash animation is faster than their normal dash, so it's repeating that motion over and over. Called the Foxtrot because it was useful for Fox in Melee, methinks. TRIPPING RUINS ALL, THOUGH.

 

[kook_U]

umm i think the Falco Fox matchup needs to be changed to 40:60 or 35:65 Falco's favor because the analysis done on it make it seem like Falco can only cg. All Falco has to do is knock fox off the ledge and predict his easily predicted recovery moves and hit him with a Dair. Also Falco has a better air game, better blaster, can also reflect, and can cg. Just watch some pro videos of a Fox and Falco match, Fox usually gets owned.

 

[Zhamy]

umm i think the Falco Fox matchup needs to be changed to 40:60 or 35:65 Falco's favor because the analysis done on it make it seem like Falco can only cg. All Falco has to do is knock fox off the ledge and predict his easily predicted recovery moves and hit him with a Dair. Also Falco has a better air game, better blaster, can also reflect, and can cg. Just watch some pro videos of a Fox and Falco match, Fox usually gets owned.

Um...you don't understand the matchup. At all.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

umm i think the Falco Fox matchup needs to be changed to 40:60 or 35:65 Falco's favor because the analysis done on it make it seem like Falco can only cg. All Falco has to do is knock fox off the ledge and predict his easily predicted recovery moves and hit him with a Dair. Also Falco has a better air game, better blaster, can also reflect, and can cg. Just watch some pro videos of a Fox and Falco match, Fox usually gets owned.

Yes, please don't post things that have already been discussed about. We already came up with a consensus and the Falco boards for the most part agreed.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

back on ness...

you counterpick with NORFAIR ;P

ness's pk thunder cant go through the platforms, so it makes him easier to gimp.rising fairs and uair work nicely here too.you still have to deal with nair though(its just not as bad)

 

[Lightning93]

Everything sounds reasonable here.

@ kook, you forget about how easily Fox is able to out-combo Falco, and gimping Falco should just be as easy for Fox as it for Falco to gimp Fox, if not easier. His recovery is very limited, and can be prevented by an easy shine spike, d-air, b-air, even n-air to quick edgehog. If you really want to learn more I suggest reading the actual discussion, because most of us (if not all) won't keep on bringing up old discussion that has already been resolved, and we won't usually explain it because your answers can be found if you just take a look back. Each matchup has carefully thought out numbers, so if there is argument it usually entitles the numbers by being not too far off or just to confirm them. The only real exception has been ZSS, but I make this announcement because you were not the first one to re-post like this. Also, I feel like I haven't said much lately, although the Fox boards are doing a great job here.

 

[_clinton]

back on ness...

you counterpick with NORFAIR ;P

ness's pk thunder cant go through the platforms, so it makes him easier to gimp.rising fairs and uair work nicely here too.you still have to deal with nair though(its just not as bad)

Norfair is one of my favorite stages with Ness as well...how about that? Really people...most of your counter pick advice isn't that good...

 

[Exceladon City]

If Luigi's Mansion is a CP you could always pick that. Utilt would give Ness problems because of the ceiling inside the mansion itself. But on the same note Ness' Utilt could do the same. Also due to the cramped space it'll make PKT much harder to land.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Ness can PK Fire the pillars to freshen move there, the ceiling helps him combo much better.

Luigi's Mansion is a bad CP versus Ness. I suggest Yoshi's Island Brawl, which was mentioned before, it doesn't hurt his game too much onstage, but kills his offstage game. The platform gimps him, the shy guys gimp him, etc.

Battlefield is a okay CP too, only if the Ness doesn't like to play with platforms. Playstyles count, since certain Ness' love platform stages, and other's hate them.

Some people say Yoshi's Island Melee is a good CP too, but I don't really get why. :/

 

[Exceladon City]

Ness can PK Fire the pillars to freshen move there, the ceiling helps him combo much better.

Luigi's Mansion is a bad CP versus Ness. I suggest Yoshi's Island Brawl, which was mentioned before, it doesn't hurt his game too much onstage, but kills his offstage game. The platform gimps him, the shy guys gimp him, etc.

Battlefield is a okay CP too, only if the Ness doesn't like to play with platforms. Playstyles count, since certain Ness' love platform stages, and other's hate them.

Some people say Yoshi's Island Melee is a good CP too, but I don't really get why. :/

I think YI (Melee) is a bad CP against Ness. A PKF trap on the middle blocks could be pretty bad. Plus YI's (Melee) sides would make backthrow kills with Ness a breeze since Fox is such a lightweight. Since you've mentioned YI (Brawl), Protein (The Ness player in my video) stage strikes YI (Brawl) every chance he gets because it nerfs Ness so badly.

 

[Sukai]

Meh, I say Smashville isn't good for Ness, mainly because if he get knocked off stage, he has little defense against Fox. He can get easily shine gimped or edge guarded, or even soft spiked, footstool spike, you name it, Ness is 80% vulnerable to anything Fox can throw at him off stage.

But aside from that, Ness is a good pick against Fox. Ness can easily 0 death an unsuspecting Fox.
Ness can also out space Fox and Fox's laser camping is useless against him. It's hard for Fox to DI out of PK Fire in time to avoid alot of damage.
Ness' forward air is enough to keep Fox from approaching, and PK fire can punish even a contemporary offense provided by Fox.

On the flipside, Fox has the advantage of better mindgames. It'll be difficult for a Ness player to absorb all the laser shots if timed right. PK Fire stops being spontaneous after a while and can be reflected with good timing. Ness also gets predictable when Fox is at a high percentage, because most ness players will always try for a grab and back throw. This predictable tactic can work in Fox's advantage as well, because a grab is easier to avoid than an up smash.

Fox : Ness
45 : 55​

 

[Lightning93]

I know some character's who use their up-b not only as their recovery move, such as Pikachu, have some problems on SV due to its small size. Also, Fox really seems to excel there, easy shine spikes, and the closed in environment may be good if Ness needs his space to move around.

EDIT: I wrote this post several hours ago, but now only posted it, I thank all these others for already suggesting counter-picks.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

seems like the Yoshi islad stages are leaning towards good cps against Ness, and SV. the melee version i see the low ceiling as a bonus but idk much else since i rarely ever cp there (not a great peach stage, and since my inital main is peach everything stems from her first).

@Knux
DI out of pkfire isn't too much harder for Fox than it is for Mario, plus you can shine out. and mindgames shouldn't really be counted in matchup discusions.

 

[Sukai]

mindgames shouldn't really be counted in matchup discusions.

:rocket:

But thats like Fox's primary advantage here.
Oh well...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah it is, but that can also be twisted to Ness advantage too, thats why they often aren't counted when determining matchups. mindgames are the only chance you have at notching a win against any pika that knows what 2+2 is afterall.

 

[Sukai]

Very well then.
Not factoring in mindgame advantage...

Fox : Ness
35 : 65
v(at the least)v
30 : 70​

 

[Exceladon City]

yeah it is, but that can also be twisted to Ness advantage too, thats why they often aren't counted when determining matchups. mindgames are the only chance you have at notching a win against any pika that knows what 2+2 is afterall.

So true. Which is why I'll CP a Pika whenever I'm against one.

Edit: I'd say it would be 40:60. Fox has a chance. It's not a horrid match-up like Luigi or Sheik.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Very well then.
Not factoring in mindgame advantage...

Fox : Ness
35 : 65
v(at the least)v
30 : 70​

geez hon its not that hard of a matchup not factoring in mindgames, otherwise peach should be 20:80. >__>

sure Ness shuts down most approachs, combosand kills Fox good if not careful, and can't be camped, but so does Zelda and Falco. neither side camps really. but Fox can kill and combo Ness ,as long as you don't treat ness like a fatty, but more like a luigi. he is comboable and gimpable. mindgames are just a separate part of the match cause thats up to the players.

So true. Which is why I'll CP a Pika whenever I'm against one.

yes even w/ that sliver of chance pika is better to CP than risk humiliation from cg **** and other such nasty stuff he can do.

 

[_clinton]

On the flipside, Fox has the advantage of better mindgames. It'll be difficult for a Ness player to absorb all the laser shots if timed right. PK Fire stops being spontaneous after a while and can be reflected with good timing. Ness also gets predictable when Fox is at a high percentage, because most ness players will always try for a grab and back throw. This predictable tactic can work in Fox's advantage as well, because a grab is easier to avoid than an up smash.

Fox : Ness
45 : 55​

PK Thunder is a mind game in itself...I wouldn't say Fox has the mind game plus...

Plus predictablity works both ways for each character...if all the Ness does is Bthrow...of course a good character will avoid it...just like if all Fox does is Usmash...of course someone good will avoid it

 

[PKNintendo]

Nice job _Clinton. Where are the other Ness mains?

Yeah anyway, it's a simple matchup.

Ness is an aerial prone fighter, and general wins in the air, but loses on the ground. Killing Fox is ridiculously easy. PKT2 kills Fox at the edge of FD at 18% But if PKT2 made macthups, Ness would be top tier. In reality, Ness backthrow ***** fox too, as it kills him quite early as well.

Lasers can be absorbed by Psi magnet so their useless.

Spoiler

LOLOLOL! In case you didn't know, psi magnet is garbage

Eh... Fox can gimp him... and has a better ground game but thats pretty much it.

grab release usmash actually works in this one, be sure you use it.

No.

In the long run it's seems 6-4.

 

[Lightning93]

Which is why matchups are based upon the abilities of the character's themselves, not the people who play them. Otherwise you would see many Foxes betting Pikas in general, but alas, you just don't.

Although I don't usually like comparing numbers because your original reference point might have been a comparison as well, I think our vs Luigi and Wario numbers are pretty accurate. This match has aspects of both, good airial options and great knockback, but his recovery is far from very difficult to gimp. His up-b provides you with a nice window of stealing the PKT yourself, or simply interrupting Ness with an n-air and then getting ready to steal the edge. Not to mention we still have b-air and d-air. Also, like Wario we can combo and kill Ness fairly decently, unlike Luigi, so I believe this is around the 60:40 area.

 

[Exceladon City]

Nice job _Clinton. Where are the other Ness mains?

Yeah anyway, it's a simple matchup.

Ness is an aerial prone fighter, and general wins in the air, but loses on the ground. Killing Fox is ridiculously easy. PKT2 kills Fox at the edge of FD at 18% But if PKT2 made macthups, Ness would be top tier. In reality, Ness backthrow ***** fox too, as it kills him quite early as well.

Lasers can be absorbed by Psi magnet so their useless.

Spoiler

LOLOLOL! In case you didn't know, psi magnet is garbage

Eh... Fox can gimp him... and has a better ground game but thats pretty much it.



No.

In the long run it's seems 6-4.

But PKT2 is pretty easy to see coming and if a PKT2 fails Ness is open to getting *****, especially if Ness is at a percent high enough for D-air > Usmash to work first rip.

 

[KheldarVII]

Eh, I'm not gonna post on this matchup anymore. _clinton is a known Ness fanboy so it matters not.

I'm in favor of 2:8 Ness.

 

[Conviction]

Eh, I'm not gonna post on this matchup anymore. _clinton is a known Ness fanboy so it matters not.

I'm in favor of 2:8 Ness.

I hope the 2:8 is a joke. IT IS RIGHT?!?!?!?!

 

[_clinton]

But PKT2 is pretty easy to see coming and if a PKT2 fails Ness is open to getting *****, especially if Ness is at a percent high enough for D-air > Usmash to work first rip.

PK Thunder doesn't move with the screen...plus you have complete control over it for 120 frames or so...so I disagree with that view some times...oh and PKT2 can be lagless as well for its ending...

Anyway talking about recovery...seeing as to how the horizontal range for Ness' 2nd jump is close to the full horizontal range of Fox's recovery (well Fox's range factoring in his fox copter does beat it by 2 or 3 blocks actually) and PKT2 if used right adds an equal amount of Horizontal and Vertical range to Ness' recovery (of course for Vertical recovery range Fox beats Ness by about 2 blocks or so) I wonder really what Fox has over gimping Ness compared to what Ness can do to Fox equally...it isn't like Mario or Pit gimps from what I can see...so other then something like Shine...what does Fox have that allows him to out gimp Ness' own gimp power?

Eh, I'm not gonna post on this matchup anymore. _clinton is a known Ness fanboy so it matters not.

>_>

Its posts like this that make me lulz at people...fun fact...most of the people who end up arguing with me in certain topics...don't see the irony of them calling me a "fanboy"

 

[Exceladon City]

Before this becomes a flame battle, can we come to an agreement and say the match-up is atleast 40:60 Ness?

 

[_clinton]

Before this becomes a flame battle, can we come to an agreement and say the match-up is atleast 40:60 Ness?

Meh...you can do whatever you want ^_^

 

[Conviction]

Meh...you can do whatever you want ^_^

Ummm......... well you don't get that the PKT2 is easy to see coming....and for your lagless ending....well heard of OoS out of Shield Usmash? I already noticed that the hurtbox is gone once shielded....so that arguement is invalid. As for the gimpng, do you have a move that stops your aerial movement. Which our shine does and has a knockback, which means you can DJ out of Shine and Shine again...... (Notice what I explain is something the falco wouldn't bring up because their recovery isn't as good as ours)you act like your PKT2 range is as big as lucas's and it isn't....usually one shine proves to work well enough... once again proven wrong....adding more any move we do can out proritize your PKT...we have speed and once again unlike lucas you can't space yourself far away from the edge and expect to get back to the edge and repeat again unlike lucas you have to curve you PKT farther around to get up....so any questions?

P.S. Only reason I seem annoyed is because you seem not to get certain things.....

EDIT: Can we move on? This match-up is like 45:55-60:40 Ness.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

actually we were all in for agreement on 40:60 Ness the moment it started. at least thats what most people stated.

 

[Conviction]

actually we were all in for agreement on 40:60 Ness the moment it started. at least thats what most people stated.

ok good lucas now

 

[_clinton]

Ummm......... well you don't get that the PKT2 is easy to see coming....and for your lagless ending....well heard of OoS out of Shield Usmash? I already noticed that the hurtbox is gone once shielded....so that arguement is invalid.

I like it when people act like I said something I didn't say...
PKT2 is not going to be used on a fresh non damaged Shield ok...it is also not going to be used that often to the point where it can be easily countered...Ness players like me know the full bloody range of PKT2 and where it ends when stopped early or when full (1/2 to 1/4 of FD)...
Ness players like me are going to be trying to hit you with PKT2 when you are going to have to avoid it and if you do avoid it or block it...it won't kill Ness users like me...

For example...if you block it...you'd better perfect block it is all I'm saying...because the right use of it as an attack will be uncounterable (the shields knock back) and overall you'd rather not block it sometimes (avoid it because of your own shields limits/being in the air in which you have to avoid it anyway)

As for the gimpng, do you have a move that stops your aerial movement. Which our shine does and has a knockback, which means you can DJ out of Shine and Shine again...... (Notice what I explain is something the falco wouldn't bring up because their recovery isn't as good as ours)you act like your PKT2 range is as big as lucas's and it isn't...

Actually I said Ness' 2nd jump was almost as long as Fox's full recovery...Lucas' PKT2 range is 3/4ths of FD by itself...and his 2nd jump is just as Long as Ness' 2nd jump...Lucas has Magnet that is about 3x better then Ness' (Hello to never needing your limited recovery sources unless you need vertical range plus you even have different speeds for it), Rope Snake, Zap Jump (2nd jump is used for it) for his recovery...Lucas' recovery is in a whole different level to Ness'

Anyway...you seem to miss my point still when I'm talking about gimping...so let me say it again...which one do you think is better at gimping in this match: Ness or Fox?

usually one shine proves to work well enough... once again proven wrong....adding more any move we do can out proritize your PKT...we have speed and once again unlike lucas you can't space yourself far away from the edge and expect to get back to the edge and repeat again unlike lucas you have to curve you PKT farther around to get up....so any questions?

Air dodge around the Shine...fun thing about Ness' 2nd jump...its main use is to make sure PKT2 is set up right...you seem to think I don't know Ness' recovery has an opening I see...I mean any good Ness knows about what their recovery limits are...

Let me put it another way...Ness' recovery is a mind game ^_^

 

[Yanoss1313]

because the right use of it as an attack will be uncounterable

B.......S........

thats all i have to say.

 

[_clinton]

B.......S........

thats all i have to say.

Go ahead and think that...but the thing is unless you perfect block it when it is used in the right space...you won't be able to touch Ness during his down time if he used it right...of course the real thing that matters in the end is if the Ness player used it right as well...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

using right is all delving down into moar myndgamez. you even said that yourself Clinton.

on gimping, pkt goes though copter right? i think im giving gimping a little more to Ness than Fox.

 

[_clinton]

using right is all delving down into moar myndgamez. you even said that yourself Clinton.

on gimping, pkt goes though copter right? i think im giving gimping a little more to Ness than Fox.

Well I'm pretty sure the tail of Thunder will go through it...anyway bye for now...