General ICs Q&A Thread

[Roller]

Wow, you're all right! I should chaingrab her! Thanks!

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Day 1 ICs here.

I've been practicing the forward chaingrab because I checked the thread (and asked some pals of mine) and it said it's the easiest. However, I'm not doing too well, I'm confused with a couple things.

1. The timing, the timing seems really random when Nana throws, so I always have a harder time catching with Popo.

2. The movement, sometimes nana will catch the opponent without moving much at all, other times she'll grab a couple nanas away from me. If you're supposed to grab them right in your face, the timing's even harder, so I guess I'm supposed to grab right in my face?

 

[B0NK]

For f-throw>f-throw???

IIRC frame wise it's the same for every character, spacing wise it's not. Keep in mind no CG is easier than another, it's personal preference. (However, some characters have shown to be more difficult to change grab based on launch trajectory and speed).

But to execute, Grab>Hold Forward when F-throwing (Popo is F-throwing, Nana is walking forward)>Grab Again with Nana>Repeat

The timing is roughly about when the hammer hits the opponent, hit grab. The sound of it is another cue.

Remember not to press forward too fast, cause then Nana will run forward.

Grabbing right in your face is indeed much harder and very strict on certain characters, I recommend making it easier on yourself and have Nana walk forward more.

EDIT: Also you're in VA, if I'm ever at a tourney or smashfest you are at this summer, hit me up, we'll find a TV and I'll help you at with the CG's by telling you what problems you may be having (like spacing, shield buffering, timing, and simple execution).

 

[DeLux]

You need to grab much earlier than when the hammer hits the opponent in order to successfully regrab.

If you're grabbing with Nana from a Popo fthrow, the time occurs the two frames before Popo enters the animation of swinging his hammer forward after the back swing.

If you're grabbing with Popo from a Nana fthrow, the correct frame of input begins when Nana is about half way between the beginning of the forward swing and the hammer contact.

 

[B0NK]

^^^ listen to this man lol

I said roughly, but out of curiosity, what about the sound? I swear I'm using some sound as a cue, but at this point I don't even think about it anymore lol...

 

[DeLux]

I don't remember the sound cues off the top of my head. I do a lot of my frame testing at night with no sound when my gf is asleep lol

I'll check next time I feel like testing for stuff.

 

[B0NK]

lol kk no worries =P

Really isn't crucial if it get's tested or not, I know the timing. Just more of a curiosity O.O

 

[DeLux]

If you resurrect my CG Guide, there's actually a sound file on it that is the correct timing for a fthrow fthrow string

 

[B0NK]

Got it

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290559

Leaving it here to help out Yars, also thanks! =P

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Wow.
Thats a legit guide.

 

[Rubberbandman]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290559

Damn, I remember that. Its been a long time comin', Lux.

 

[DeLux]

I'll get it at some point. Been busy doing the work

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

You need to grab much earlier than when the hammer hits the opponent in order to successfully regrab.

If you're grabbing with Nana from a Popo fthrow, the time occurs the two frames before Popo enters the animation of swinging his hammer forward after the back swing.

If you're grabbing with Popo from a Nana fthrow, the correct frame of input begins when Nana is about half way between the beginning of the forward swing and the hammer contact.

This helped sooooo much, I've actually got it pretty much down! My problem was trying to input grabs during the same part of the animation and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong...

 

[Mr. game and watch]

After you start to get the cues, it becomes muscle memory. And you just go.
But IIRC the most fthrows you can do in a row is 4, if you dash the fourth right.
So once you get this down start learning dthrow.
Then you can do fthrow>dthrow>dthrow>fthrow>fthrow>dthrow etc. That kinda stuff.

 

[DeLux]

Mr. Game & Watch is wrong.

Most characters you can Fthrow string them infinitely assuming there is a long enough level. The exceptions being Lucas, Meta Knight, Kirby, Squirtle, Game & Watch, Jiggly Puff off the top of my head. I forget if I concluded if Ness was also on the list, and it isn't conclusive because I only tested the extrema and didn't test every character. Spot checks did confirm that most characters can be fthrow strung infinitely though.

@ Mr. Game & Watch - Who told you that you can only do 4 Fthrows? You said "IIRC" meaning you have a source from somewhere. Whoever told you that, stop taking IC advice from them. I like to use Dthrows more because in theory they are less mashable than Fthrow. And as they stale, the spacing becomes more lenient for regrab. They are also more lenient in timing and spacing for regrabs in the percents that matter aka < 300%. However, they do less damage, and are difficult to string together consistently on platforms, especially when accounting for spacing on light characters.

So if I'm on the main part of a stage, I'll Dthrow Walk people across the stage until I need to Bthrow Hobble turn around. If I can't Bthrow Hobble, then I do a Bthrow Tripless. At some point soon I'll be able to consistently Bthrow Non-Shield Drop Tripless every character so I can start doing tripless CGs on platforms. On platforms right now I bthrow > Dthrow > (Fthrow Walk) until the end of the platform. Then repeat.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

The frame window gets smaller though no?

 

[DeLux]

Except for the characters on the "Cannot Infinitely Fthrow" list, the frame window will never shrink beneath 2 frames. For the most part, the frame window fluctuates from 4-2 frames on fthrow strings. The frames it switches from 4 to 3 to 2 varies from character to character because it's knockback dependent.

For tournament play, EVERY character can be Fthrowed up to 300%, which is all that matters.

 

[Rubberbandman]

But IIRC the most fthrows you can do in a row is 4, if you dash the fourth right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp6F9mmrGkw

Shoutouts to Chibii <3

 

[DeLux]

Oh I lied. Technically if you're trying to go tripless for Jigglypuff, the timing on her bthrow makes it so a soft turn regrab attempt will only have 1 frame.

That's is the only exception that I know of that is different than the 2 directly to 0 rule

However, if you're able to consistently soft turn jigglypuff let me know. That would make your tech skill ungodly and you'd be a candidate for the savior of our main lol

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Omgwtfbbq.
I cannot buffer like that.
On bowser I just bthrow>fthrow>bthrow>fthrow till maybe 150% and charge a smash grab

 

[DeLux]

What is a smash grab?

 

[Rubberbandman]

What is a smash grab?

Charging your grabs by holding Z obviously. And you're the one in Smash lab.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I make up terms like a boss.
I would call that a z-smash actually.
Smash grab would be holding a grab with popo and charging a smash with nana.
I like putting terms on things, helps me remember em.

 

[DeLux]

Oh.

Don't do that. Nana has 80%? of the knockback Popo has. Generally speaking, if you had to charge slightly with Nana, you probably would have killed un charged with Popo.

More ICs need to learn to do the Nana Fthrow > Popo partial charge usmash out of CGs so they don't get mashed.

If you charge your CG before you input a throw, it forces Nana into pummel animation which has to end before you can throw. People can grab break from pummel. They can't grab break from throw.


@ Enda - We have a term for that. It's called shield buffering

 

[Rubberbandman]

I just popped an option select idea in my head lux, it might be a dud though.

DSC -> (Input SH Nair oos)

If you PS it, you auto nair oos, if you dont...Nair oos? or grab?

 

[DeLux]

It depends on the move on shield and how much shield lag there is. I'm fairly certain you'll still buffer the jump.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I was gonna say "or vice versa" but my thumbs failed to input the message.
But that's good to know, I thought popo had more knock back but wasn't sure.

 

[Rubberbandman]

It depends on the move on shield and how much shield lag there is. I'm fairly certain you'll still buffer the jump.

You'll buffer JUST jump or you'll buffer the nair as well?

 

[Sieguest]

@ Enda - We have a term for that. It's called shield buffering

This reminded that now I'm confident enough to say something extremely obvious that no one does (at least it appears that way from all of the videos I've watched and what seems to be "common knowledge" base that comes with the idea of shieldbuffering) that would be just a little more help.
[collapse=Skype Convo][6/22/2011 2:31:04 AM] Ghosti: During a CG you usually shieldbuffer after the dthrow to prevent an unnecessary early grab.
[6/22/2011 2:31:11 AM] Ghosti: and you lose the frames on your shield drop.
[6/22/2011 2:31:13 AM] Ghosti: Well
[6/22/2011 2:31:23 AM] Ghosti: you can abuse the turn mechanics of the climbers.
[6/22/2011 2:31:38 AM] Ghosti: You never have to really drop your shield.
[6/22/2011 2:31:45 AM] F@B@: oh
[6/22/2011 2:31:58 AM] F@B@: you would roll though
[6/22/2011 2:32:01 AM] F@B@: ?
[6/22/2011 2:32:11 AM] Ghosti: Not if you know your control stick well.
[6/22/2011 2:32:30 AM] F@B@: oh WTf
[6/22/2011 2:32:32 AM] F@B@: I just did it
[6/22/2011 2:32:34 AM] F@B@: LOL broken
[6/22/2011 2:32:41 AM] Ghosti: Instead of losing 8 frames.
[6/22/2011 2:32:46 AM] F@B@: tripless
[6/22/2011 2:32:49 AM] F@B@: btw
[6/22/2011 2:32:51 AM] F@B@: TRIPLESS
[6/22/2011 2:33:05 AM] Ghosti: loool
[6/22/2011 2:33:39 AM] F@B@: wtf Guest
[6/22/2011 2:33:39 AM] Ghosti: You would only lose 1 for bringing up the shield.
[6/22/2011 2:33:45 AM] F@B@: but inputting it
[6/22/2011 2:33:46 AM] F@B@: is hard
[6/22/2011 2:33:57 AM] Ghosti: I'm guess I'm used to it.
[6/22/2011 2:34:03 AM] Ghosti: I've been softurning bthrows for so long.[/collapse]

To be frank, you do not need to drop your shield when shieldbuffering and lose frames from the grab. The turn mechanics will turn Nana around in her shield and she'll be able to regrab. Another bonus (and at the same time a curse) is that this automatically tightens down the spacing of chaingrab (due to the magnet effect being "amplified" for lack of a better term when Nana goes into shield). The curse to this though is that once the timing factor of the CG reaches zero (meaning only the spacing factor has any influence in the CG) then you will not be able to continue CGing in this fashion. An example is Meta-Knight, this style of CGing is successful on MK up to 128%(*).

Another downside appears to those who are not used to softturn CGs. If you CG'd like you normally would, you would end up rolling using this method. It is a bit challenging at first to get a good enough feel for your control stick to CG like this consistently, but once you do it is definitely rewarding. And as Lux made clear, it's tripless.

Essentially instead of giving up 8 frames to shieldbuffer you only give up 1.

* Testing method was training mode so throw stale was not factored in which may make a difference. At some point in the future I hope to have numbers that account for any stale factor at a given moment.

You'll buffer JUST jump or you'll buffer the nair as well?

You'll get the nair as well. As long as the shieldlag is less than 10 frames you can buffer an aerial OoS.
(inb4luxsaysactuallyyou'rejustbufferingthejumpandtheninputtingtheaerialquicklyafterward.)

 

[DeLux]

Guest, you can do it at higher percents if you do it out of other throws.

For example, if you were to Dthrow > String to No Shield Drop Bthrow, you get the added effect of better spacing

I feel like I've done it to metaknight up to at least 150 in this method.

However, I have never successfully gotten Lucas regrabbed via this method.

 

[Sieguest]

I see, so far I've just done straight bthrow->dthrow (with obligatory dthrow setup). I'll need to try some other throw combinations.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Wouldn't Bthrow -> Bthrow be pretty much the same as Bthrow Dthrow but with a HUGE staling amount/number of reps required since its the only one you're using? Man you guys are going to make me have to play today, I wanted to take a nap.

 

[Sieguest]

Wouldn't Bthrow -> Bthrow be pretty much the same as Bthrow Dthrow but with a HUGE staling amount/number of reps required since its the only one you're using? Man you guys are going to make me have to play today, I wanted to take a nap.

Possibly, I haven't looked at bthrow->bthrow but I feel that there would be a difference. The large staling amount may make it possible to chaingrab to higher percents. You also have to take into account that how far the magnet effect will tighten the spacing with relation to the current spacing is different for each combination. As Lux has shown stringing dthrows together and then going to bthrow allows one to CG to a higher percent than just straight bthrow->dthrow. Which does make sense since you can tack on the damage with the extra dthrows you're getting in once you pass the percent where you'll drop the grab on the upcoming bthrow. There's a lot of small things that only observation can truly shed light on.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Does a wireless GCC lag alot?
There was one at a local game store. I loved the feel of the controller, but was worried about lag.

 

[Sieguest]

The lag is easily noticeable. I mean, you wouldn't find the game unplayable, but you definitely would be putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Does a wireless GCC lag alot?
There was one at a local game store. I loved the feel of the controller, but was worried about lag.

Possible. Most likely as much lag as Wiichuck and the like. Still its up to timing. If you train yourself to react correctly or prepare for whatever, then the lag won't even matter.

Truthfully the last Wireless I held felt awful, the Cstick didn't even work half the time.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I assume controller lag is the last thing you need for trying to CG.
I have a black origional gcc, I'll just stick with it.

 

[Rubberbandman]

If you have muscle memory down on it, then it doesn't even matter correct?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Maybe not. But not sure I wanna spen the money finding out :3

 

[Sieguest]

If you have muscle memory down on it, then it doesn't even matter correct?

Kind of, it deals with the timing aspect of the CG, but not the spacing aspect, so you're still liable to drop it. Especially if you had a wireless GCC like mine where the lag sometimes caused directional inputs to be registered twice.

Wiichuck and CC users don't have this problem however, the bluetooth technology that the wii uses actually makes for fairly smooth and responsive play with those controllers, you can notice the lag though (and sometimes non-responsiveness) if the connection weakens or drops for a second though, while not incredibly often, does happen.