General ICs Q&A Thread

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Write in my threaaaaaaad

 

[Roller]

Yo, shouldn't that have been made in your thread? Please stop spamming.

 

[2-DJeff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9kpTvm6CYA

guess your pretty dumb now huh?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Jeff.
Other thread.

 

[2-DJeff]

thats not rage lol im clearly just asking a question. you needa stop reading what i wrote because its making you dumber by the minute lol

 

[Roller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0&feature=related



I wish I was a mod, just so I could embed videos...

 

[2-DJeff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0&feature=related



I wish I was a mod, just so I could embed videos...

i love family guy

 

[DeLux]

The worst MK's are the one's that are simply good players, and understand when to go for high risk/reward situations in the match-up >.< (read: not many do). Aka that recognize when your going for a desync (there are visual cues for every desync that the opponent can catch on to... guess that's why certain "traps" I see as gimmicks =/).

^^^ all imo, since people don't (and maybe shouldn't???) agree with me

If you're getting hit out of your desync options you:

A. Shouldn't be using a desync option at that time
B. Elected to use a non-dynamic desync option when you should have elected to use a more dynamic one (ie having popo act first instead of nana, since allowing popo to control spacing is what makes that form of setup more dynamic)
C. Weren't zoning properly
D. Did not execute the Desync Correctly

or a combination of those things

 

[B0NK]

^^^ Thanks, definitely helps me. =)

In that case my problem is spacing then (and more likely the desync option used at that spacing).

I also believe it's possible that I may be telegraphing them, because there is a response to every desync to avoid unnecessary damage. (Such as catching on to a dash at a certain spacing, etc). But I shouldn't be getting hit out like you said.

What's happening is that the opponent can also catch on to your reaction to them trying to punish your desync. (Are you up-airing as they jump over you? Are you shielding an expected attack? Are you dashing away? For a pivot? Are you rolling? Are you jumping away? MK has an answer to all these options [he can cover multiple at once], so mixing it up after the desync is very key)

Aka IC's simply don't have the frames, range, and priority, even desync, to stay completely safe against MK. So what I'm saying is "good" MK's that can catch on to an IC's player's unconscious telegraphs, read their reaction, familiar with your options after a desync, and how to cover them effectively. So what I mean by a "high risk/reward" situation for the MK, it only seems like that since the MK player was sure it was going to hit. (Simply by being a good player).

Aka like for anyone playing this game, the key is to mix it up while remaining safe. Easier said than done against MK, who always seems safe regardless of how he mixes it up.

^^^ Once again all IMO, since obv no one should ever agree with me (aka i'm mad free).

 

[Conviction]

guess your pretty dumb now huh?

Nah dog, it felt like it was needed. LOL

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Rage thread kind sirs.
That will keep these threads happy and a polite.
Troll the RT

 

[Hylian]

Aka IC's simply don't have the frames, range, and priority, even desync, to stay completely safe against MK. So what I'm saying is "good" MK's that can catch on to an IC's player's unconscious telegraphs, read their reaction, familiar with your options after a desync, and how to cover them effectively. So what I mean by a "high risk/reward" situation for the MK, it only seems like that since the MK player was sure it was going to hit. (Simply by being a good player).

You can apply most of what you said to any character in almost any match-up.

Also, IC's have better range, damage output, equal priority(better actually if you take range into account) so your first statement is null. The only reason mk does well against them is because he can stay safe when he wants to(he can't damage them when doing this though) and he can actually separate them well unlike a lot of characters. IC's counter mk's camping(unless he has a stock lead) REALLLLLLY hard, mk's are sooo easy to beat when they camp the whole time because they are just giving you a ton of opportunities to hit them with uair and get grabs off reads.

The best way for mk to play the match-up is to safely poke at their shield and then nado them so that it shield pokes and try to keep them separated.

I don't feel like you understand how many more options IC's have in this match-up than mk does. If mk fairs IC's on the ground they can grab him. If he fullhops any aerial on their shield they can safely uair/nair/bair him. If he nados wrong he dies, even if he lands on a platform(excluding some cases in which ics just opt to uair twice). Ic's damage output is wayyy higher than mk's, ic's can get better punish's on reads...mk only really has stages and gimping going for him as well as good use of nado.

 

[DeLux]

Hylian, stop letting them poke your shield. Platforms/Uair and blizzards for that desync zoning control

The only time I try to go into shield is if I'm in an "oh **** I ****ed up" situation OR a desynced setup > DSC read for a grab/usmash/uair/nair punish. Or if they nado. Then it's time for that 9B style read.

 

[B0NK]

You can apply most of what you said to any character in almost any match-up.

Very true.

Also, IC's have better range, damage output, equal priority(better actually if you take range into account) so your first statement is null. The only reason mk does well against them is because he can stay safe when he wants to(he can't damage them when doing this though) and he can actually separate them well unlike a lot of characters. IC's counter mk's camping(unless he has a stock lead) REALLLLLLY hard, mk's are sooo easy to beat when they camp the whole time because they are just giving you a ton of opportunities to hit them with uair and get grabs off reads.

...

Read what I said before.... this is what I meant, the most difficult MK's to play are the one's that understand this, and know how to get into "high risk/reward" situations, that aren't really a risk because the opponent did it off a read, and MK is extra safe without really trying.

I don't feel like you understand how many more options IC's have in this match-up than mk does. If mk fairs IC's on the ground they can grab him. If he fullhops any aerial on their shield they can safely uair/nair/bair him. If he nados wrong he dies, even if he lands on a platform(excluding some cases in which ics just opt to uair twice). Ic's damage output is wayyy higher than mk's, ic's can get better punish's on reads...mk only really has stages and gimping going for him as well as good use of nado.

I may very well not, I understand that MK's mis-guesses are much safer than ours (Ours get us separated).

And what good MK fairs IC's sheild??? (Haven't seen it since 09). What MK is even going to be above IC's... aka full hopping aerials on sheild, instead of in defense of a dash, etc.

The lead is so important in this match-up it wears on a player's patience. (On both sides, I understand this >.>).

and "...mk only really has stages and gimping going for him as well as good use of nado." hmmm... so he punishes me for winning a match? Landing nado will auto-separate/put me in the air. And if he hit's me off stage???

Sounds like his punishes are just as good as IC's to me.

Trust me I understand our options, I say MK's even when limited, are better and safer.

Edit: also I'm free, and don't know anything, stop caring about what I say. (Although I will still say it! :D)

 

[DeLux]

Bonk you're fine

As I tried to point out in that other post, every IC brings something different to the table. We're just going to fact check/bounce our own ideas to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

I see what you're trying to say and think it has some validity, thus why we're at a slight disadvantage. But it's much closer to even than you would think

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Pretty sure we discuss MU's in every thread but the MU thread.
Ο θεός αγάπε.

 

[B0NK]

@Lux: Got it. (Still don't agree with that even >.< Give me neutrals only, then I can start to see it.)

aka match-ups will forever be based on different experiences and perspectives.

@Mr. G&W: Because any of those threads care more about getting the ratio's over with then actually discussing the match-ups. Sorry? >.>

 

[Rubberbandman]

Still, we should get to a general consensus about where the matchup SHOULD be rated, and discuss key points to look out for, especially in the matchup against the most used character in the game. Plus, we might just pop new ideas in where we need them.

But really, I'm just kinda happy we're back on track after the derailing of the thread.

@GnW it doesnt matter where you really say it, as long as we're getting it out there.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

It'd be nice in the mu thread cause then we can look back at the op

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Y U LOCK MY ThREAD?!

 

[B0NK]

But really, I'm just kinda happy we're back on track after the derailing of the thread.

Y U LOCK MY ThREAD?!

Welp, so much for that -___-

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Why is yellow the winner?

No one likes yellow gatorade.

 

[DeLux]

Mink, please take your gatorade talk to the social. Thank you

We're getting back on Q&A track

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Congrats on mod.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Here's a question, Lux.
Which are more effective against Meta Knight: Offensive desyncs like shield drop/Kakera's, or defensive ones like RID desync?

I'm always at a loss as to which to use.

Also, anyone got advice on Snake MU?


Edit: Good job, your Modliness.

 

[Roller]

I have a Q I'd like to be A'd. Are cats really better than dogs?

 

[DeLux]

Thanks for the congrats everyone.

Here's a question, Lux.
Which are more effective against Meta Knight: Offensive desyncs like shield drop/Kakera's, or defensive ones like RID desync?

I'm always at a loss as to which to use.

Also, anyone got advice on Snake MU?


Edit: Good job, your Modliness.

In order:

I tend to use super defensive desync options against MK since the matchup as we've been discussing turns on who blinks first. The most common desync I'll use when playing an MK is to Run far far away under a platform, Shield Drop > LD1 > Blizzard. Then if I'm not being dumb, I'll keep a blizzard wall up under the platform and react to what the MK does.

Offensive Desyncs in this matchup will get you killed (except for one situation that's highly rare, I could explain but it would take a lot of writing). You can get away with it if you're looking to desync and cover ground quickly (like the kakera 2 dash, I've recently been doing LD2 out of crouch as my aggro of choice). But don't be using the aggro desyncs as a grab setup as you normally would. They are more to keep MK from running in and grabbing you and separating that way.


I dont use RID ever because I can't reliably hit that one frame window. Cheese might know since he said he features it. But I would guess that because it's fairly unreliable, whiffing on it in either offensive or defensive situations might get you killed


The snake matchup is about zone control. If you can dynamically setup under pressure, you can outcamp snake. Use desynced IB's at a range that is approx his ftilt and one of our dash lengths. What this does is he has to cook the nade and THEN throw it in order to have them affect us at this range. If he does that, the nade is susceptible to getting hit by an IB, exploding him. If he doesn't, pay no attention to the nade because the nade will go over you with no consequence. If he does manage to throw a nade that will hit us, frame data says he most likely won't be able to strip it to hit us. I say most likely, because I haven't played a snake yet that could cook nades under IB pressure that precisely to hit us without him taking substantially more damage trying.

Don't approach without an IB to cover you. It helps cover most options. After that, just don't fall for C4 frame traps. Dthrow your CGs since the timing window is so forgiving.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Awww ****.
Lux is mod.
I'm officially done trolling IC boards.
I will now ony have serious talk and the occasional lol.
I'm in many other boards for mah trolols.
@roller depends on the breed.

I have a Q that I would like to be A'd.
Is desync game really that important?
I can never desynch without takin hits and falling back into synch.
Which is wasted effort from me and a free hit for them when I'm desynching.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Desynching:
It may not be for everyone, it may certainly be for everyone.
It may bring your downfall, it may net you the win.
Its all in the hands of the player, whether you want to or not, just trust in yourself and do what you think is right.
~Enda

 

[DeLux]

Is desync game really that important?
I can never desynch without takin hits and falling back into synch.
Which is wasted effort from me and a free hit for them when I'm desynching.

Get some videos up and we can tell you what you're doing wrong. I dont' care how bad the quality is. Anything is fine.

You should have seen some of the first vids myolinnir put up. The quality hurt to look up, and look what he did after we showed him whats up

 

[ch33s3]

I only use RID offensively, and if I do use it, I do a pseudo option select where if I miss, I'm essentially in a DSC situation. There's a very safe spacing for it where you can decide to blizz and be safe or try and push in with an IB. It is risky, but I feel like if you're completely prepared for the situation where you miss, it's well worth it.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Aight Lux, thanks for the write up, I've never thought about staying at that spacing with Snake.
If anyone answers by the time I leave, should I then take MK to BF rather than SV? I've always done Smashville, but if camping under a static platform is better for stage control, I'll do that.

About to head to Saraland here soon.
Time to be the best character in the game.

@Cheese, that's a damn good idea as well. I'll try that today too.

 

[2-DJeff]

if you learn to platform cancel perfectly at sv. its like another fd for you. now ppl always take me to BF

 

[Mr. game and watch]

K.
I only use a few desynchs tho.
I get ***** by anyone with projectiles if I try and desynch.
Except fox of course.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

YEah.
I watched ESAM on sv,
it was horrifying.

 

[TheSaintKai]

So guys, I know that the b-throw to d-throw CG on MK (and well, anyone) has mashable frames because of the shield buffer.
Is it then possible to b-throw to f-throw and buffer them so that there are no mashable frames? Or at least decrease the number of mashable frames by a large amount?

 

[Rubberbandman]

Perfect F-throw Bthrow has no mashable frames, but its dumb to get the rhythm down for it, you might as well stick with what you're comfortable with, but experiment with an increased speed/slowed down speed.

 

[Sieguest]

So guys, I know that the b-throw to d-throw CG on MK (and well, anyone) has mashable frames because of the shield buffer.
Is it then possible to b-throw to f-throw and buffer them so that there are no mashable frames? Or at least decrease the number of mashable frames by a large amount?

Just a small nitpick: Shield buffering is not required to bthrow->dthrow CG every character so there are quite a few characters that can't mash out of that CG. To answer your question though it is entirely possible to buffer bthrow->fthrow in a way that it's not mashable, while there are a few characters that will have frames in which they CAN input struggle inputs, they won't be able to mash out.

Perfect F-throw Bthrow has no mashable frames, but its dumb to get the rhythm down for it, you might as well stick with what you're comfortable with, but experiment with an increased speed/slowed down speed.

Again, a small nitpick: Characters nearing the lighter end of the roster (MK, Kirby, Jiggz and some others but I haven't looked them up) have a few mashable frames. However, to a point it's not practical to expect them to mash out if you're if you keep an optimal pace.

 

[DeLux]

You should just do tripless CGs imo and not bother with these bthrow > fthrow shenanigans

 

[Rubberbandman]

Thanks for that.
Its really better to keep a good pace where they cant mash out than it is to just make it frame perfect. Because if they arent mashing that fast then you're just doing it for no reason.