Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[YagamiLight]

Guys, look at this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193553
Marth players recommend pushing Ike to the edge to the stage and using counter against Aether. That sounds like a good strategy; we should be avoiding the boarders.

Please Light, let’s start rating the matchups. This thread already turned official and we got more matchups discussed than any matchup guide in the past. For the sake of representing Ike in the general matchup chart and in a more precise manner in the tier list.

Yeah, I'll add in the section about the border in tomorrow's update.

As far as rating matchups goes, I think I may have to do it. I kinda wanted to avoid it while it was still a small project of mine, but now that it's the board's match-up guide, it would be rather smart to provide a number of some sort. The main thing here is that I wanted to avoid giving out directly my opinion, but I guess if you guys have an objection to the numbers I provide, I'll gladly argue the points.

When I update the thing tomorrow with Zelda, I think I'll make the match-ups look like:
vs Meta Knight: 50-50 Neutral Match
vs Snake: 50-50 Neutral Match
vs King Dedede - 40-60 Slight Disadvantage
vs Marth - 40-60 Slight Disadvantage
vs Zelda - 60-40 Slight Advantage

Those seem reasonable enough for my liking.

 

[HeroMystic]

Guys, look at this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193553
Marth players recommend pushing Ike to the edge to the stage and using counter against Aether. That sounds like a good strategy; we should be avoiding the boarders.

Which was why I was very detailed with going against Marth's dancing blade and F-airs. You NEED to shield/spotdodge those. Otherwise Marth can get very rhythmic with them. If you get hit by one F-air you're more than likely gonna get hit with the 2nd one.

When I update the thing tomorrow with Zelda, I think I'll make the match-ups look like:
vs Meta Knight: 50-50 Neutral Match
vs Snake: 50-50 Neutral Match
vs King Dedede - 40-60 Slight Disadvantage
vs Marth - 40-60 Slight Disadvantage
vs Zelda - 60-40 Slight Advantage

I'm gonna have to disagree with the Metaknight. He's a 60-40 Disadvantage at best. The reason why that Ike can't leave no room for error at all is the reason.

Marth I'd say neutral. If you know Marth well then Ike will be very formidable against him, but Marth's speed and precision is the exact opposite of Ike's pure power and survivability. It can honestly go either way and highly depends on who slips up first.

 

[Rykoshet]

Marth has an automatic KO the second ike gets offstage honestly, he can wait for the aether start animation then press down B and knock ike right out of it. Forcing ike to have to dip in close to the stage and reverse aether gives marth a **** ton of free time to stage spike him with dolphin slash -_-

 

[Kinzer]

Marth has an automatic KO the second ike gets offstage honestly, he can wait for the aether start animation then press down B and knock ike right out of it. Forcing ike to have to dip in close to the stage and reverse aether gives marth a **** ton of free time to stage spike him with dolphin slash -_-

Hence why timing aether if possible makes all the more of a difference when recovering.

 

[XACE-K]

Yeah, I'll add in the section about the border in tomorrow's update.

As far as rating matchups goes, I think I may have to do it. I kinda wanted to avoid it while it was still a small project of mine, but now that it's the board's match-up guide, it would be rather smart to provide a number of some sort. The main thing here is that I wanted to avoid giving out directly my opinion, but I guess if you guys have an objection to the numbers I provide, I'll gladly argue the points.

When I update the thing tomorrow with Zelda, I think I'll make the match-ups look like:
vs Meta Knight: 50-50 Neutral Match
vs Snake: 50-50 Neutral Match
vs King Dedede - 40-60 Slight Disadvantage
vs Marth - 40-60 Slight Disadvantage
vs Zelda - 60-40 Slight Advantage

Those seem reasonable enough for my liking.

The match-ups seem good but I would make them:

vs MK: 40-60 Disadvantage
vs Snake: 50-50 Neutral
vs Dedede: 35-65 Disadvantage
vs Marth: 40-60 Disadvantage
vs Zelda: 55-45 Advantage

Dedede is Ike's hardest match-up IMO so that match-up should have the biggest difference.

 

[•Col•]

The match-ups seem good but I would make them:

vs MK: 40-60 Disadvantage
vs Snake: 50-50 Neutral
vs Dedede: 35-65 Disadvantage
vs Marth: 40-60 Disadvantage
vs Zelda: 55-45 Advantage

Dedede is Ike's hardest match-up IMO so that match-up should have the biggest difference.

I think this is more accurate... lol... =P DDD is harder than 4-6... I think it might be even 3-7...

And MK isn't a neutral match with Ike... xD

 

[Rykoshet]

Hence why timing aether if possible makes all the more of a difference when recovering.

Timing of the counter is up to the marth, not you. There's enough startup on aether that marth has the advantage on being free to wait for the right moment to counter, if you make it back it's only because the marth ****ed up.

 

[YagamiLight]

I updated the guide, and I placed some match-ups, let me explain myself here:

MK- While Ike has to play smart, if he does everything well, he'll be able to kill MK early and avoid gimps.

Dedede- It's Ike's worst match-up, so 35-65 seems correct.

Marth- The control over the edge is what makes it from a neutral match to slightly Marth's favor.


Expect a new character up in a bit (Though since the Zelda write-up was mildly short, I'm going to work on that while you guys discuss the new character)

 

[•Col•]

I updated the guide, and I placed some match-ups, let me explain myself here:

MK- While Ike has to play smart, if he does everything well, he'll be able to kill MK early and avoid gimps.

Dedede- It's Ike's worst match-up, so 35-65 seems correct.

Marth- The control over the edge is what makes it from a neutral match to slightly Marth's favor.


Expect a new character up in a bit (Though since the Zelda write-up was mildly short, I'm going to work on that while you guys discuss the new character)

Lol, if DDD is Ike's hardest matchup, it should probably be 3-7.... xP

 

[XACE-K]

Dedede- It's Ike's worst match-up, so 35-65 seems correct.

Wow, I was right. Now let's move on to Wario.

- Even though it won't kill you, watch out for D-air-> Bite-> Boost U-smash or however it goes.

- Don't always grab him at high percents to do the auto release-> U-tilt.

- Try to get rid of his bike at any times. Mosts Warios recover that way since it's better than his Up-B.

That's all I can think of for now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

LOL@ these match-up ratios.

 

[•Col•]

LOL@ these match-up ratios.

Jesus... Stop going to every other character boards and criticize the match-up rankings.... lol....

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not much else to do now that the metagame is at a stand-still.

 

[DMG]

Wow, I was right. Now let's move on to Wario.

- Even though it won't kill you, watch out for D-air-> Bite-> Boost U-smash or however it goes.

- Don't always grab him at high percents to do the auto release-> U-tilt.

- Try to get rid of his bike at any times. Mosts Warios recover that way since it's better than his Up-B.

That's all I can think of for now.

Umbreon said Grab release did not combo into either Utilt or Ftilt. If it doesn't, then Ike now has a harder time killing.

 

[Kirk]

On Wario, I'm 95% sure that a jump break release --> uptilt is a true combo, as in he can NOT escape it.

Overall I say the match-up is 40-60 (in favor of Wario). Might give more specifics later when I'm not so sleepy. xD

 

[DMG]

On Wario, I'm 95% sure that a jump break release --> uptilt is a true combo, as in he can NOT escape it.

Overall I say the match-up is 40-60 (in favor of Wario). Might give more specifics later when I'm not so sleepy. xD

Good numbers my man, good numbers.

I'll wait for your info, and then I'll spit some out myself from my side. I have some testing to do

 

[MysticKenji]

jump break -> utilt works on wario, i think Umbreon was talking about grab -> mash a -> utilt not working

Anyway, I haven't fought a Wario in forever, so I'll stay out of this one.

Spoiler

Don't get bitten!

 

[Snowstalker]

Meta Knight goes even with Ike?

What are you smoking? I want some.

 

[XACE-K]

LOL@ these match-up ratios.

Aw, now I feel like a failure.

Umbreon said Grab release did not combo into either Utilt or Ftilt. If it doesn't, then Ike now has a harder time killing.

You can't jab Wario at all to do it. Just grab him, stand there not doing anything and when he jumps out, U=tilt.

Meta Knight goes even with Ike?

What are you smoking? I want some.

Sorry. Our "stuff" is only for Ike mains to have.

 

[DMG]

You can't jab Wario at all to do it. Just grab him, stand there not doing anything and when he jumps out, U=tilt.

I thought that was what he was referring to, that's what every character does that can do that. I thought he was confirming that Utilt was too slow to hit while Wario was released airborne, but I guess not.

 

[Guilhe]

Marth has an automatic KO the second ike gets offstage honestly, he can wait for the aether start animation then press down B and knock ike right out of it. Forcing ike to have to dip in close to the stage and reverse aether gives marth a **** ton of free time to stage spike him with dolphin slash -_-

If you time well your Aether, you'll hit him just under his feet and his counter attack with pass over you. The timing is very strict, but with training you’ll get it right. Unfortunately, you can’t punish him for using counter, so he is still at advantage.

What else... Marth can only interrupt a full jab sequence with Dolphin slash if he was caught by it in the air. If you are planning on a Jab cancel to grab I suggest canceling it at low percentages and as soon as the punch connects. It doesn’t have much knockback so you must be able to grab him in place. That way Marth has a much smaller window for using his UpB.

Marth’s Fthrow to Fsmash can only be performed when his target is at 0% to 5%. He has more menacing combos like weak Fair to SideB.

Dedede is Ike's hardest match-up IMO so that match-up should have the biggest difference.

You just wait for Olimar!

 

[Kinzer]

For wario Quickdraw approaches aren't suggested here because apparently Bite has "Super Armor" frames where you still go through with the attack but he still gets you in his bite. to counter this make the best out of teh range on his dash attack. Xace already said but take care of the bike, I'm not sure if this means by taking it to a place where Wario can't use it for his recovery or just destroying it but somehow you need to manage it. maybe destroying it would be preferred since you can grab the wheels and use it as items, however don't get careless as Wario could use his wheels to store gas for his fart. I really think if Warios try and approach/attack with a bike charge, then this gives you some options. I think you could try and use counter when you know he's going to ram you with the bike, or you could do a f-tilt/aerial move to knock that guy off his hog, an aerial would be preferred just because depending on how fats the Wario was coming to you, the bike might still charge even if wario get's knocked off the bike and the bike will connect a hit on you.

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah, I kind of expected me putting Meta Knight as a neutral match would get these reactions, nevertheless, I soundly believe that at a high level, it's equal.

With that said, I've backed up the guide onto text documents, since losing it now would be so sad.

I think D3 and Olimar are actually tied at 35-65, and those are the worst for Ike.

Continue to discuss Wario as I make the guide look better.

Spoiler

Or just insult the token ratings that I put up, that's highly productive.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The match-ups seem good but I would make them:

vs MK: 40-60 Disadvantage
vs Snake: 50-50 Neutral
vs Dedede: 35-65 Disadvantage
vs Marth: 40-60 Disadvantage
vs Zelda: 55-45 Advantage

Dedede is Ike's hardest match-up IMO so that match-up should have the biggest difference.

Dude whats up with you and zelda? everybody tells you other wise and you said you don't have experience on it. Just curious as to why you keep wanting to put it in the neutral/disadvantage section.

I thought that was what he was referring to, that's what every character does that can do that. I thought he was confirming that Utilt was too slow to hit while Wario was released airborne, but I guess not.

Well Usmash hasn't been confirmed to be to slow as far as I know. One guy said it was to slow but then he retested it and said it was possible.

I fought my 1st good wario in a long time today so lets see if what I got out of it was right.

1st off Wario's recovery is insane. It's really hard to gimp him and he can probably break out of every spike you have until high percents so your gana have to kill him with strength.
Warrio Usually approaches trough the air with his many multi hit moves as approaching with the bike would be pretty dumb. If he does use it just hit him out of it with an Fair or Fsmash I think. For the aerials just shield the whole thing and wait till he lands then grab/jab to punish.

Only thing thats really dangerous here is the fart which can surprise you at times. I didn't really learn how to watch out for it though but I did block it a good number of times.

Besides that the match seemed pretty strait forward to me. The fighting is done close up and pretty much every attack is punishable on shield. Ike does out range warrio on the air but since he is very mobile it might be hard to intercept the attacks with Fair. Nair is easier as it can be used as a shield when he is attacking you then follow up into one of its many combos. You can do it against jigglypuff so you should be able to do it against warrio once you get used to it.

For neutrals I'd go with BF as he 2 stocked me in other stages and I kept winning when we got BF.

Like I said before its my 1st time fighting a good warrio in a long time so theres a good chance I'm wrong.

 

[Kinzer]

For neutrals I'd go with BF as he 2 stocked me in other stages and I kept winning when we got BF.

Why do you suppose you did better on BF than any other stages you might've played on, was it when Wario was on the platforms it made him an easy target for hits?

 

[XACE-K]

You just wait for Olimar!

True but I found Dedede's harder.

Xace already said but take care of the bike, I'm not sure if this means by taking it to a place where Wario can't use it for his recovery or just destroying it but somehow you need to manage it. maybe destroying it would be preferred since you can grab the wheels and use it as items

Both do work but I like destroying it better.

Dude whats up with you and zelda? everybody tells you other wise and you said you don't have experience on it. Just curious as to why you keep wanting to put it in the neutral/disadvantage section.

I have absolutely no clue why. I'll just shut up about the Zelda match-up from now on. It'll help me from confusing myself.

 

[Kirk]

Wario:

--Bite is a *****: You're going to get bitten -a lot- if you are not careful here. It acts as a grab and thus has priority over many of your attacks. For instance, if you are standing just out of range of the Bite and you start to jab into it, you'll get caught in it. Keep your spacing and use one of the many disjointed hitboxes at your disposal to counter this (my favorite is Walking --> Fsmash :o ...it's all about predicting). Common approaches I've seen are falling from above on top of your shield and right out of a Dair. Oh, and don't spotdodge this...cause that is just silly.

--Dair is amazing xD: The single move is my bane whenever I play against Wario. Amazing shield pressure combined with Wario's fantastic aerial control make this very hard to get around if Wario knows what he's doing. That's not to say it's impossible, however. Learn exactly when the last hit of Dair comes out, so you can drop your shield right away and go for the punish. Keep in mind this will eat your shield if you keep standing there and taking the full hits. If you find this happening, change up the timing of your approaching/retreating.

--Shorthopped Airdodging ruins you: At least it does for me xD. With Ike's naturally laggy attacks, it can prove rather easy for Wario to short hop airdodge right around you. Just be wary of this as a general approach for Wario. All I can say really is try to bait the dodge and punish for it. But that is easier said than done. Nair does pretty well at punishing dodges, especially if he likes to airdodge behind you.

--Your range > his: This is self explanatory. Use this to your advantage in this matchup. Just be careful of the shorthopped airdoge approach. That should do here...

--Grab Jump Break --> Uptilt: Should be known by now, but in case you don't, grabbing Wario and getting him to jump break(not pummeling him) will combo into Ike's uptilt. It sets up for an auto KO at the right percent. Just be aware that this is an option.

--Sure his recovery is good, but...: If you can catch a Wario without his bike, forcing him to corkscrew back up to the ledge, spike his ***. Corkscrew doesn't sweetspot the ledge, so feel free to use whatever method you feel appropriate :D

--Don't get gimped: He's got the ability to gimp you by throwing out a few aerials off the stage and use the bike to get back. Just be wary, timing airdodges and the like.

Misc. Notes:

-Half charged farts kill you, don't let them.
-Grabs work well in this matchup, use them.
-Ground stalking is less useful due to Wario's great aerial control, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing it.
-Uair ****, watch out for it...it kills :o
-His Fsmash is fast, but laggy after the hit.
-Your Fsmash is awesome, use it :D

That be it for now.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think I can get a nice sized article done by late today, depending on how things turn out (I'm probably gone for the rest of the afternoon).

What I don't exactly know is what to make the match-up ratio. 7-3 Ike is a bit too extreme but I am leaning towards an advantage for Ike, especially with the range, grab release combos and the infinite Ike has.

 

[Kirk]

I think I can get a nice sized article done by late today, depending on how things turn out (I'm probably gone for the rest of the afternoon).

What I don't exactly know is what to make the match-up ratio. 7-3 Ike is a bit too extreme but I am leaning towards an advantage for Ike, especially with the range, grab release combos and the infinite Ike has.

You might want to rework your numbers...facts/opinions in writing can only go so far. I believe Wario is a 40-60 matchup (disadvantage for Ike).

 

[XACE-K]

I think I can get a nice sized article done by late today, depending on how things turn out (I'm probably gone for the rest of the afternoon).

What I don't exactly know is what to make the match-up ratio. 7-3 Ike is a bit too extreme but I am leaning towards an advantage for Ike, especially with the range, grab release combos and the infinite Ike has.

I don't know if you do this but before you make the ratio, look at what the other characters main thinks of Ike. Put together our thoughts and their thoughts and than make the article and ratio.

 

[Snowstalker]

I still want the drugs that make people think Ike goes even with Meta. Is it true that they also make people think that Ike goes even with Snake, is a decent character and has no really bad matchups?

 

[XACE-K]

I still want the drugs that make people think Ike goes even with Meta. Is it true that they also make people think that Ike goes even with Snake, is a decent character and has no really bad matchups?

Well I don't think all of those things but I'll try to get you some of our "stuff".

 

[Ussi]

What else... Marth can only interrupt a full jab sequence with Dolphin slash if he was caught by it in the air. If you are planning on a Jab cancel to grab I suggest canceling it at low percentages and as soon as the punch connects. It doesn’t have much knockback so you must be able to grab him in place. That way Marth has a much smaller window for using his UpB.

I believe if you catch Marth in the air with jab can't you jab lock him? (Just hold A, you will jab, 2n jab miss, jab, 2nd jab miss, jab...) and its as fast(IF not faster) than a jab cancel.

 

[Guilhe]

I’ve tried it Ussi, but he still can break the sequence with dolphin slash.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I still want the drugs that make people think Ike goes even with Meta. Is it true that they also make people think that Ike goes even with Snake, is a decent character and has no really bad matchups?

Go ask umbreon for them hes the one handing them out. I'm pretty sure its the same thing yoshi mains smoke to make them think he is awesome.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Go ask umbreon for them hes the one handing them out. I'm pretty sure its the same thing yoshi mains smoke to make them think he is awesome.

Tell me about it. It's even worse on GameFAQs. They are all like "He is neutral against MK Mid tier now!"

Though, I do have to agree that even with MK for Ike is crazy. Ike doesn't have the attack speed or recovery for it. 6-4 best case or 7-3 worse case. MK boards have him down as 7-3 MK advantage, but they don't even talk about Eruption and think QD is Ike's most common way to recover......unless they have just been too lazy to update the matchup topic.

On a side note: Would jumping off the stage and using Eruption in hopes of baiting a shuttle loop of a recovering MK into the super armor frames be plausible? The idea just popped into my head, as a lot of people who play MK think "Target Above MK = Shuttle Loop", and if that would work, the fire would hit him, and you wouldn't go flying away.

 

[Rykoshet]

I’ve tried it Ussi, but he still can break the sequence with dolphin slash.

He can break any interrupted sequence with dolphin slash. It is invincible on frames 1-4 and attacks on frame 5, it's an automatic out.

 

[DMG]

I think I can get a nice sized article done by late today, depending on how things turn out (I'm probably gone for the rest of the afternoon).

What I don't exactly know is what to make the match-up ratio. 7-3 Ike is a bit too extreme but I am leaning towards an advantage for Ike, especially with the range, grab release combos and the infinite Ike has.

Ike's infinite only works if Wario has wasted his DJ and you catch him in the air, and why would you be landing grabs on Wario anyways? Good Wario's are a pain to grab, and a lot of times it's flat out not worth it even trying to go for a grab release setup since it leaves you open.

Ike's range is the biggest obstacle Wario has to face, but it is not very hard to bait an attack from Ike, dodge it through either an airdodge or weaving away, and then punishing Ike while he is still lagging. Wario is great up close, and he doesn't have too much trouble getting past your range with an airdodge and landing a move. Once you get caught in one of his Combos, Ike has a hard time getting out.

Killing Wario can be a pain, he is one hard to hit sucker and missing a Smash attack can cost you big if he dodges it or punishes after the attack is over. He, on the other hand, is fast and hard hitting with his kill moves. Combine that with how well he can gimp, and it's not too uncommon for Ike to be in trouble even in the 60% range.


Basic Summary: Ike has more range than Wario, both in the air and on the ground. He's also not too bad at killing when his moves do hit, and getting a grab release can guarantee a kill at certain %'s. Ike can also punish approaches with a well timed counter, making you think twice before you attack with something.
Wario is a lot faster that Ike, both in his attack speed and his aerial DI. Wario is also a lot more flexible than Ike, being able to not only approach through attacks with airdodges, but by also retreating from danger with airdodges. His shield pressure is superb, with Dair and Chomp as notable moves, and he is a character that is hard to shake off once he starts going.

I would rate it as 4 : 6 for Ike like Kirk stated earlier (Meaning Wario has the advantage).

 

[XACE-K]

On a side note: Would jumping off the stage and using Eruption in hopes of baiting a shuttle loop of a recovering MK into the super armor frames be plausible? The idea just popped into my head, as a lot of people who play MK think "Target Above MK = Shuttle Loop", and if that would work, the fire would hit him, and you wouldn't go flying away.

Well the Ike might SD himself and for the MK to die, it would depend on how high his damage is or else that would be useless.

Ike's infinite only works if Wario has wasted his DJ and you catch him in the air, and why would you be landing grabs on Wario anyways? Good Wario's are a pain to grab, and a lot of times it's flat out not worth it even trying to go for a grab release setup since it leaves you open.

Ike's range is the biggest obstacle Wario has to face, but it is not very hard to bait an attack from Ike, dodge it through either an airdodge or weaving away, and then punishing Ike while he is still lagging. Wario is great up close, and he doesn't have too much trouble getting past your range with an airdodge and landing a move. Once you get caught in one of his Combos, Ike has a hard time getting out.

Killing Wario can be a pain, he is one hard to hit sucker and missing a Smash attack can cost you big if he dodges it or punishes after the attack is over. He, on the other hand, is fast and hard hitting with his kill moves. Combine that with how well he can gimp, and it's not too uncommon for Ike to be in trouble even in the 60% range.


Basic Summary: Ike has more range than Wario, both in the air and on the ground. He's also not too bad at killing when his moves do hit, and getting a grab release can guarantee a kill at certain %'s. Ike can also punish approaches with a well timed counter, making you think twice before you attack with something.
Wario is a lot faster that Ike, both in his attack speed and his aerial DI. Wario is also a lot more flexible than Ike, being able to not only approach through attacks with airdodges, but by also retreating from danger with airdodges. His shield pressure is superb, with Dair and Chomp as notable moves, and he is a character that is hard to shake off once he starts going.

I would rate it as 4 : 6 for Ike like Kirk stated earlier (Meaning Wario has the advantage).

I agree with this whole entire post. Nice to see the main of another character come in here and help and not make fun of the ratios or ask us what we're smoking. >_>

 

[DMG]

I agree with this whole entire post. Nice to see the main of another character come in here and help and not make fun of the ratios or ask us what we're smoking. >_>

It's cool, besides I don't smoke that Ike stuff, too strong :D

I am glad we have gotten along so far, I've had a few less than pleasant experiences on other character boards that asked for matchup info and it's nice when it's friendly. I hate it when they get mad at me for doing what they asked me to do lol.