Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Kirk]

Ike's infinite only works if Wario has wasted his DJ and you catch him in the air, and why would you be landing grabs on Wario anyways? Good Wario's are a pain to grab, and a lot of times it's flat out not worth it even trying to go for a grab release setup since it leaves you open.

Ike's range is the biggest obstacle Wario has to face, but it is not very hard to bait an attack from Ike, dodge it through either an airdodge or weaving away, and then punishing Ike while he is still lagging. Wario is great up close, and he doesn't have too much trouble getting past your range with an airdodge and landing a move. Once you get caught in one of his Combos, Ike has a hard time getting out.

Killing Wario can be a pain, he is one hard to hit sucker and missing a Smash attack can cost you big if he dodges it or punishes after the attack is over. He, on the other hand, is fast and hard hitting with his kill moves. Combine that with how well he can gimp, and it's not too uncommon for Ike to be in trouble even in the 60% range.


Basic Summary: Ike has more range than Wario, both in the air and on the ground. He's also not too bad at killing when his moves do hit, and getting a grab release can guarantee a kill at certain %'s. Ike can also punish approaches with a well timed counter, making you think twice before you attack with something.
Wario is a lot faster that Ike, both in his attack speed and his aerial DI. Wario is also a lot more flexible than Ike, being able to not only approach through attacks with airdodges, but by also retreating from danger with airdodges. His shield pressure is superb, with Dair and Chomp as notable moves, and he is a character that is hard to shake off once he starts going.

I would rate it as 4 : 6 for Ike like Kirk stated earlier (Meaning Wario has the advantage).

Pretty much what I said except worded differently

And did my post like slip by everybody or something? No one commented or anything...I wanted to know if you guys agreed or not lol xD

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Go ask umbreon for them hes the one handing them out. I'm pretty sure its the same thing yoshi mains smoke to make them think he is awesome.

Almost sig worthy.........

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

stuff on wario.

Only thing I'd like to note is that you used DI wrong. Every character has the same DI since its something you do after you get hit. Moving trough the air is just moving trough the air.

Pretty much what I said except worded differently

And did my post like slip by everybody or something? No one commented or anything...I wanted to know if you guys agreed or not lol xD

people are tired of praising your ever post =p. Basically if no one disagrees you did a great job again. My drug post got more attention than yours though lol.

edit: ever should be every

 

[DMG]

Only thing I'd like to note is that you used DI wrong. Every character has the same DI since its something you do after you get hit. Moving trough the air is just moving trough the air.

Fine then, Wario has a higher maximum horizontal air speed than Ike. But see, that was much longer than saying Wario had better aerial DI, and he does have better influence over horizontal movement/direction than Ike, so it's close enough in my book

 

[XACE-K]

It's cool, besides I don't smoke that Ike stuff, too strong :D

I am glad we have gotten along so far, I've had a few less than pleasant experiences on other character boards that asked for matchup info and it's nice when it's friendly. I hate it when they get mad at me for doing what they asked me to do lol.

Well us Ike mains are different. We are friendly people unles you make a useless thread. Especially another Hurricane Ike thread.

people are tired of praising your ever post =p. Basically if no one disagrees you did a great job again. My drug post got more attention than yours though lol.

Agreed. Yours got more attention because it involved drugs.

 

[YagamiLight]

Just got back.

I'd be quite the fool to disregard all these 4:6 Wario's favor posts, so I think I'll make it that, despite personal opinion. I'm really quite thankful for the help, really. I'll try to get something up today, but that's not guaranteed.

And, as a side note, Arturito's drug post actually did make me laugh, but I don't think the Ike drugs are quite that strong.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

^ I'm thinking your personal opinion is getting in the way to much. DDD is like Ike's worst match up along with olimar. Ike does have some big disadvantages even people who think he is great usually consider DDD to have a big uper hand. it should be at least 7-3 because of his ability to punish everything Ike has.

 

[Ussi]

Ike vs Wario hmmm

As much as Wario can bait Ike, Ike has too be good at baiting air dodge, or just using nair since its longer than anyone's air dodge. Wario's that love the air and air dodge will fall victim to nair easily. Then learning to keep up with his speed to strike with your lengthy fair.

If Wario is forced to use his up-b, since it doesn't sweetspot you can be dtilt'ed. Usually won't happen but when it does, its good to know you can take the stock.

Ike's range let's him deal with Wario on his bike better than others too. Also short hop bair should hit through it.

Also, Wario's fart will kill you if you get hit by Wario rising up from below.

Wario's fsmash has super armor frame to look out for. But its soooooooooo short ranged that dtilt should out range it.

Ike's Utilt > Wario's dair

Spacing is big key to avoid bite. I can't put any numbers, I only fought a wario who just spammed air dodge -_-;;;.....

 

[metroid1117]

For wario Quickdraw approaches aren't suggested here because apparently Bite has "Super Armor" frames where you still go through with the attack but he still gets you in his bite.

Just to knit-pick your post, he doesn't have SAF during his bite; it's just that his bite counts as a grab, and when a grab hitbox and attack hitbox hit at the same time the grabber wins but takes damage, thus causing the SAF effect.

Pretty much everything has been said about on-stage combat, but I'd just like to point out that a Wario recovering low is a dead Wario. There is noticeable and punishable lag between the time he gets off his bike and the time he can airdodge and jump; it's very easy to FAir him or even spike him if you've read him well enough (much easier when you get rid of auto-fastfalling DAirs by setting your C-stick to "Attack" rather than "Smash"), and after that you can go back and wait for them to try and get back to the stage. As Kirk pointed out, his up+B doesn't auto-sweetspot; it's entirely plausible to spike him with DAir during it.

 

[YagamiLight]

^ I'm thinking your personal opinion is getting in the way to much. DDD is like Ike's worst match up along with olimar. Ike does have some big disadvantages even people who think he is great usually consider DDD to have a big uper hand. it should be at least 7-3 because of his ability to punish everything Ike has.

I think you do have a point, it could very well be 7-3. In retrospect, I don't feel like numbering the match-ups this early in the guide. I'm thinking I'll take a separate timeafter all the characters have been done and just post a list that we'll discuss, as we won't have any more characters to do. The metagame will also advance, so it's a double bonus.

I think this is the best possible way to do this. I hope none of you have any particular objections?

 

[DMG]

Pretty much everything has been said about on-stage combat, but I'd just like to point out that a Wario recovering low is a dead Wario. There is noticeable and punishable lag between the time he gets off his bike and the time he can airdodge and jump; it's very easy to FAir him or even spike him if you've read him well enough (much easier when you get rid of auto-fastfalling DAirs by setting your C-stick to "Attack" rather than "Smash"), and after that you can go back and wait for them to try and get back to the stage. As Kirk pointed out, his up+B doesn't auto-sweetspot; it's entirely plausible to spike him with DAir during it.

Wario recovering low or being forced to use Upb is very unlikely to happen, there's not any real moves Ike has that knock people off really low horizontally that would force him to be in that situation. It is very hard to edgeguard Wario, even some of the best edgeguarding characters have trouble hitting him while he recovers.

It's more constructive for you to be thinking about where he might land on stage or where he is positioned to go instead of trying to edgeguard him, and I guess if he puts himself in a bad position then don't be afraid to exploit it. For the most part though, you won't get that chance.

 

[Kirk]

Sounds good to me. We can always add them in later as they are not particularly needed at this stage.

From back a few posts, technically Arturito is correct on the DI thing. I prefer to use "Aerial control" when talking about general aerial maneuverability. Sure it's not as short as just saying "DI," but you know, it is what it is.

Also, what Metroid said :D But as always there is the "if" in there. Usually we won't be having a Wario intentionally putting himself in harms way. But if the opportunity arises, why not take advantage? Good stuff.

Also also, loldrugs.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think you do have a point, it could very well be 7-3. In retrospect, I don't feel like numbering the match-ups this early in the guide. I'm thinking I'll take a separate timeafter all the characters have been done and just post a list that we'll discuss, as we won't have any more characters to do. The metagame will also advance, so it's a double bonus.

I think this is the best possible way to do this. I hope none of you have any particular objections?

Well if your going to go and do that then just take off the numbers completely. Having them on it will always bring up discussion and you seem to want to avoid that atm. Besides we have the other match up thread for numbers.

 

[YagamiLight]

Well if your going to go and do that then just take off the numbers completely. Having them on it will always bring up discussion and you seem to want to avoid that atm. Besides we have the other match up thread for numbers.

Yeah, I took them off right after my previous post.

I don't know if I like or dislike the other thread's views on the match-ups, but I guess there's no harm in discussing them there while we work on the guide here.

 

[Kinzer]

You know I have to add a very wierd thing happened to me last night.

I was coincidentally paired up with a Wario player over Wifi after I finished rereading this thread, and we we're on the Halberd. I don't remember wather if my damage went up or not (I think it did though just because of the "SA" frames) but I believe if you time it VERY precise you can grab Wario, he will still do his Waft, and you can do whatever from there.

Don't ask me how it happened, I was pretty lucky to grab Wario before the knockback from the Waft could kill me.

 

[XACE-K]

You know I have to add a very wierd thing happened to me last night.

I was coincidentally paired up with a Wario player over Wifi after I finished rereading this thread, and we we're on the Halberd. I don't remember wather if my damage went up or not (I think it did though just because of the "SA" frames) but I believe if you time it VERY precise you can grab Wario, he will still do his Waft, and you can do whatever from there.

Don't ask me how it happened, I was pretty lucky to grab Wario before the knockback from the Waft could kill me.

That happens to all characters who grab somebody when the opponent attacks them. Or did I misinterpret what you said and something different happened.

 

[Kinzer]

Well if you mean it happens to everybody where if you grab at the precise time you will still take damage but ignore the knockback and grab, then I guess I've just mentioned that already, but could be used to try and avoid being killed by a fart, but then again you have other utilities for that as well, the most obvious of them being the SA frames of Aether and Eruption.

 

[MysticKenji]

Well if you mean it happens to everybody where if you grab at the precise time you will still take damage but ignore the knockback and grab, then I guess I've just mentioned that already

Grab vs attack: Grabber wins and takes damage, but no knockback (Fake SA)

Fart's got pretty good range though, so you'd probably get pwnt if you tried this.

 

[Kinzer]

Grab vs attack: Grabber wins and takes damage, but no knockback (Fake SA)

Fart's got pretty good range though, so you'd probably get pwnt if you tried this.

Which is why I am taking my suggestion back, although it could still be used as an option...but rarely...just like the dtilt spike.

You know what though? I've seen a lot of ways Wario can beat up Ike, but what does our man have going for him on this fat guy anyway?

 

[Guilhe]

In retrospect, rating the matchup difficulty level was really meaningless. It changed the course of the discussion and they weren’t even slightly precise, as the each one has a different conception on how a 70-30 or 80-20 looks like. I’m deeply regretted of suggesting its implementation. It's like atributing numeric values for or characters in the tier list!

 

[•Col•]

In retrospect, rating the matchup difficulty level was really meaningless. It changed the course of the discussion and they weren’t even slightly precise, as the each one has a different conception on how a 70-30 or 80-20 looks like. I’m deeply regretted of suggesting its implementation. It's like atributing numeric values for or characters in the tier list!

I don't think there was much more to discuss about Wario, anyway... Also, if you want a number value for a matchup, Wyvern-x's chart is pretty good...

 

[YagamiLight]

In retrospect, rating the matchup difficulty level was really meaningless. It changed the course of the discussion and they weren’t even slightly precise, as the each one has a different conception on how a 70-30 or 80-20 looks like. I’m deeply regretted of suggesting its implementation. It's like atributing numeric values for or characters in the tier list!

Actually, I'm glad we had that number section in the discussion, and I'm happy you brought it up. It re-affirmed that they were not needed by any means until a full guide is done. We can work on them when every character is done, but until then it shouldn't even be on the priority list.

With that said, Wario's essay is completed. I'm quite happy with it, as it's very in-depth. I need to pick a cool character to do for lucky number 7, so stay tuned.

Edit: Pikachu is pretty cute. Not particularly cool, but this works.

 

[Kinzer]

oh I HATE Pikachu, that rat has a projectile that can be spammed, has a killer Down-B, QAC is great for anything you can come up with, and his D-Smash is like his GTFO move, not to mention his F-smash has a nice little disjointed hitbox with a sweetspot at the very tip.

Edit: On Wario though (Because I really feel like we haven't gone through some stuff), can't the guy kind of perform a "sliding" Up-Smash? and what about his D-Smash, doesn't it come out just as fast his F-smash but with some "sex kick" attributes to it as well as being MORE punishable than his F-smash? ("sex kick" meaning that it can hang for a while and still do damage if you get within touching range.)

 

[MysticKenji]

that rat has a projectile that can be spammed

and is almost as slow as Din's Fire and your SH goes right over it

has a killer Down-B

don't get hit

QAC is great for anything you can come up with

truth

and his D-Smash is like his GTFO move

SDI

not to mention his F-smash has a nice little disjointed hitbox with a sweetspot at the very tip.

I'm pretty sure Pika's tipper Fsmash is weaker than his non-tipper one.

Edit: On Wario though (Because I really feel like we haven't gone through some stuff), can't the guy kind of perform a "sliding" Up-Smash? and what about his D-Smash, doesn't it come out just as fast his F-smash but with some "sex kick" attributes to it as well as being MORE punishable than his F-smash? ("sex kick" meaning that it can hang for a while and still do damage if you get within touching range.)

Yes to both

 

[Kirk]

oh I HATE Pikachu, that rat has a projectile that can be spammed, has a killer Down-B, QAC is great for anything you can come up with, and his D-Smash is like his GTFO move, not to mention his F-smash has a nice little disjointed hitbox with a sweetspot at the very tip.

Thunder jolt can be spammed for sure, but it is also easily countered with timely powershielding, which shouldn't prove too difficult due to it's slow movement and easily recognizable cues (Pikachu! ...Pikachu!)

DSmash is easily SDI'd if you know what you are doing (SDI upwards). Depending on how soon and how far you are flung out of it, you can follow up with a Dash Attack before Pika can recover.

If I remember correctly, Pika's FSmash has a sweetspot closer to his body...the tip of the attack sends you flying with a more vertical trajectory and less knockback, which is good on Ike's end (Good spacing = less likely to get sweetspotted).

Edit: On Wario though (Because I really feel like we haven't gone through some stuff), can't the guy kind of perform a "sliding" Up-Smash? and what about his D-Smash, doesn't it come out just as fast his F-smash but with some "sex kick" attributes to it as well as being MORE punishable than his F-smash? ("sex kick" meaning that it can hang for a while and still do damage if you get within touching range.)

The dash canceled UpSmash can be a surprise, but it is also punishable if you see it coming. Most of the time Wario would use it after a Bite at lower percentages, but not limited to just that.

DSmash I would hope a Wario wouldn't use against an Ike. I'ts basically just as fast as FSmash, but with horrible lag afterwards. Basically, if you block the DSmash, that's a free Fsmash for Ike. I doubt Wario would want to put himself in that position...but if he does, capitalize :D

More on Pikachu later...

EDIT: Looks like MysticKenji beat me to it :o. The only think I disagree with is that I don't believe you can just short hop over the thunder jolt. If I am mistaken, it would be more risky than powershielding in any case.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pikas DownB is an invitation for a free fsmash...

 

[•Col•]

Pikas DownB is an invitation for a free fsmash...

Wtf? xD You had better be spacing well if that thunder is coming down.... Doesn't the hitbox around Pikachu actually gets a little bigger than the animation range?

EDIT: Wow, that was horribly put.... Dx But I dunno what other way to say it...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes it does but Ike outranges... EVERYTHING!!!

 

[Ussi]

I love pikachu sooooooooo much ;DD

thunder can be outranged by fsmash. I main pikachu so I know. Pikachu's weakness is disjointed range, which Ike comes plenty in. Tjolt is stopped by your jab but I prefer dashing powershield. Fair outranges thunder in the air.

Pikachu has combos and CG on you. And thunder which can mess your spacing for aether.

45/55

 

[•Col•]

I love pikachu sooooooooo much ;DD

thunder can be outranged by fsmash. I main pikachu so I know. Pikachu's weakness is disjointed range, which Ike comes plenty in. Tjolt is stopped by your jab but I prefer dashing powershield. Fair outranges thunder in the air.

Pikachu has combos and CG on you. And thunder which can mess your spacing for aether.

45/55

Ah yes... Pikachu's forward chaingrab... Which reminds me, don't pick Castle Siege or Delfino plaza against him... xD he can chaingrab you off the stage during the walf-off parts...

Personally, I think Luigi's mansion would be a really good stage to pick against a Pikachu... Ceiling blocks thunder... Posts block thunderjolts... Plus, most of Pikachu's kills are got off the top of the screen, if I'm not mistaken...

Also, as for neutral stages, just go Battlefield... You can dodge his jolts by standing on a platform... Platforms also can stop his thunder, which will make it easier to fsmash him... : D Plus, the stage pressure the platforms give is always a nice thing for Ike... =]

So yeah... Anyone agree/disagree with me? xD

 

[PkTrainerCris]

the pikachu boards already have ike on their matchup thread, it doesnt have numbers but it says pika>ike, btw, thunder is NOT a spacing tool; pika dies at low percents, but you will find a good pika hard to hit; pika can chaingrab and combo,specially with utilt and uair, and pikachu edgeguards ike pretty well (a lot of pika's kills will come from edgeguard, for pika is really hard to star ko ike), i think is 65-45 or 60-40 for pika, btw, fsmash sweetspots in the middle, not the tip

 

[•Col•]

the pikachu boards already have ike on their matchup thread, it doesnt have numbers but it says pika>ike, btw, thunder is NOT a spacing tool; pika dies at low percents, but you will find a good pika hard to hit; pika can chaingrab and combo,specially with utilt and uair, and pikachu edgeguards ike pretty well (a lot of pika's kills will come from edgeguard, for pika is really hard to star ko ike), i think is 65-45 or 60-40 for pika, btw, fsmash sweetspots in the middle, not the tip

Huh? o-o What makes him so good at edgeguarding Ike?

 

[XACE-K]

Pika's a pain in the a** for me, idk why.

-Take advantage of your power and range since Ike has that over Pikachu.

-He has a chaingrab with his d-throw and f-throw but I don't know how high it would go. Just don't pick any stage with walk-offs.

-Just as Colaya said, Luigi's Mansion is you best counterpick stage for this match-up.

-He can use Skull Bash->Quick Attack for recovering.

I'll think of more stuff later.

 

[Kinzer]

You know it would probably be wise to try and figure out where Pikachu would try and QAC recover so you can somehow punish the plasma rat if it doesn't already grab the ledge, or if you find your Pikachu using Skull Bash as a recovery I have little to no problem literally countering this, either WITH counter or depending on the length of the Skull bash place yourself accordingly and give that punk no sympathy from your F-smash.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I don't have that much experience on pikachus but it seems to me that people are thinking of thunder the wrong way. With the pikachu I've fought he uses it to kill/edge guard when your at top/off the stage.

Idk about that edge guarding Ike really good. A lot of people think there characters can edge guard Ike because they can just jump and air dodge then he plummets to the ground but I still think QD shouldn't be used as a recovery. At least not at that height where it can get air dodged.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh speaking of thunder it could be possible to counter that and turn it into some good stuff against Pikachu, for a lightning bolt coming from the sky it still takes some time to reach the floor.

 

[XZA143]

I haven't had too much experience with pikachus either,but I'm pretty sure its as Arturito said with thunder. More often then not (at least by the good ones) its going to used as an edge guard due to it interfering with aether or quick draw and I think you can't fully air dodge it. Not too sure on that one. Other than that its basically whats been said already. Powershield/jab/jump whatever works for you against the thunderjolt, SDI the D-smash, watch out for the chain grab.
Also, watch how they attempt to recover. They'll even sweetspot the ledge or quick attack onto the stage, so mind games can come into play here. I don't think you'll see the good ones side-B to recover often. IIRC, in kirk's video he punished a pikachu that did that with a Dair so keep that in mind. Speaking of the ledge, can an eruption hit pikachu before he sweetspots? Or is the window for timing it effectively too small?

 

[Kinzer]

I haven't had too much experience with pikachus either,but I'm pretty sure its as Arturito said with thunder. More often then not (at least by the good ones) its going to used as an edge guard due to it interfering with aether or quick draw and I think you can't fully air dodge it. Not too sure on that one.

It really can't be airdodged if you try and do it from the bottom of the bolt, it would probably be wise to try and move to the farther side you're on to try and escape the extended hitbox before you get punished.

Oh and not just his D-Smash, but is it possible to SDI out of any other of Pikachu's electrical attacks like his Fair? (Really I think its only none special attack that actually has electricity behind it is D-smash, Fair, and Dair.)

 

[Kirk]

Oh and not just his D-Smash, but is it possible to SDI out of any other of Pikachu's electrical attacks like his Fair?

You can SDI out of his Bair...I know that for sure...I do it all the time (Bair out of Pika Bair is so satisfying ). Fair I'm not 100% sure of...given it's properties, I assume you can...though I've never done it before... *shrug*

 

[MysticKenji]

EDIT: Looks like MysticKenji beat me to it :o. The only think I disagree with is that I don't believe you can just short hop over the thunder jolt. If I am mistaken, it would be more risky than powershielding in any case.

You can, but only at certain points of its arc.
In any case, PSing is better most of the time.

65-45

huh?

Oh and not just his D-Smash, but is it possible to SDI out of any other of Pikachu's electrical attacks like his Fair? (Really I think its only none special attack that actually has electricity behind it is D-smash, Fair, and Dair.)

Pika's dair is one hit iirc, but i think Fair can SDI'd out of.