*IMPORTANT READ* Bucket Braking. Read it nubs.

[TheStig]

bucket brake sounds so sexy

moar AT's plz although G&W is really good already

 

[A2ZOMG]

GaW's first AT. I am so proud! Lets have another, A2ZOMG.

What, do I need to make a topic for you describing all the ATs we already know?

You should know:

Slowfall D-air
Bucket Stall
U-air Stall
B-boost
Jab Cancel -> Grab or D-tilt
Use saved midair jump after canceling Up-B with an aerial attack
BUCKET BRAKE

 

[pockyD]

half of those aren't techs

 

[Neb]

half of those aren't techs

^This.

The only acceptable techniques even close to being AT's are...

• Ledge Boost
• B-Reversal
• and now...er, Bucket Brake.

So this really is G&W's first AT, considering the other two are universal.

 

[infomon]

So this really is G&W's first AT, considering the other two are universal.

Heh, that just makes it more awesome
gg A2ZOMG, you broke G&W.

 

[cutter]

I followed suit and changed the title to bucket braking on AiB as well.

This isn't a broken AT, but it's definately really good for helping out GW's featherweightness.

EDIT: They are eating this up on AiB...

 

[Neb]

Does this AT really change much of anything to an extent?
I mean, G&W is still going to die at 140% and up if he's close enough to the blast zones.
The video showed him surviving attacks from the ledge of maps, and toward their far blast zones, so I can see this being used in those scenarios. But not G&W surviving these percentages at closer ranges to the KO regions.

I'm pretty sure the answer is- He will still survive longer, just not as long as the video demonstrates. Y/N?

 

[infomon]

Correct. The video showed extreme examples for the purposes of demonstration. If you're getting hit close enough to the edge that you don't have time to finish your Nair and pull out the bucket before you hit the killzone, then obviously you're doomed.

Then again, I didn't use any DI in the video, so with good DI (head slightly above the corner so that fastfalling the Nair aims you right at the corner), this technique is still quite helpful.

 

[cyclone248i]

Neb, you're forget vertical kills, though.

Gee n Dubz has got this. :D

 

[Neb]

Neb, you're forget vertical kills, though.

Gee n Dubz has got this. :D

I never specified which blast zone I was referring to, I was considering them all.

 

[Mmac]

I think this is blown way out of proportion. I tested all three characters, and overall it only saves about roughly 10% more than what would have killed you with the quickest attack (Or Airdodge) and DI. Realistically it does not help that much at all, and it's nowhere close to game breaking.

It DOES make you live slightly longer compared to your other options, just don't expect to live through Snake's Utilt at 220.

 

[Neb]

Just what I thought.

 

[pockyD]

you just dashed my dreams

 

[Mmac]

you just dashed my dreams

Yeah..... sorry about that

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Colin beat Mmac to the dream crushings

 

[K 2]

Even if it lets you love 10-15% longer, that's really good for G&W, who usually dies in the lower 100's with good DI.

 

[Neb]

That's what you get for getting too excited.
Builds you up, and breaks you right back down, .

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Hmm?
I haven't over exaggerated this once. Anytime I said amazing find or nifty trick, it's because it is
It isn't broken, like M2K mentioned lol, but it is good.

Neb is just a huge downer.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey, I just talked to teh_spammerer and Inui about it, and they BOTH say it's broken. They find it so broken that they actually told me that they would start using G&W more in tournaments.

And I think the reason why is because firstoff, G&W is very good at staying safe. This AT makes him better than many midweights and heavyweights at taking hits and surviving. There are several characters in Brawl that are fairly reliant on a single kill move, and Bucket canceling, combined with G&W's ability to stay safe can make him ridiculously hard to kill if he's good with stage positioning.

Yeah, and when you think about it, G&W surviving at 170% against MK's D-smash, and Snake dying against it at 130% is pretty messed up.

 

[Neb]

Hmm?
I haven't over exaggerated this once. Anytime I said amazing find or nifty trick, it's because it is
It isn't broken, like M2K mentioned lol, but it is good.

Neb is just a huge downer.

No, I'm just very apathetic and tired, :/.
To add, I never accused you of exaggerating anything.
And I do think its a neat technique, but not as good as some people are making it seem.

S'all.

 

[Mmac]

170%?!? How are you getting these Insane Values?

Using MetaKnight's Dsmash in the Middle of Final Destination, Game & Watch Lives at Max of 125% using a Nair + Jump combo (With DI of course). With Nair + Bucket, he only lives up to about 136% at the most. Vertical Wise, using Snake's Utilt, G&W Lives at 92 using Nair and Downwards DI. With the Bucket, to my surprise, barley makes a difference. Only about 3-4 more Percent if you get it right.

You are forgetting that You need to do something before the Bucket activates, and Game & Watch just doesn't have anything that ends quick enough for it to be more of an impact. It does not do that much good. It only minorly helps at best.

 

[ColinJF]

Vertical Wise, using Snake's Utilt, G&W Lives at 92 using Nair and Downwards DI.

Down isn't the right way to DI a move that sends you straight up (I think it does nothing in fact)... you want to DI straight to the left or right, whichever corner is farther.

That being said, Mmac's overall point is still right. It's silly to say you can just stay far away from the blast zones and live longer because every character can do that.

Inui and teh_spamererererere can say it's broken if they want but in reality it rarely will make a difference in a real match. Sometimes it will though.

 

[Mmac]

Really?....

I don't see how Moving to the Sides counters Upwards momentum either......

 

[ColinJF]

DI doesn't alter the magnitude of your momentum; it only changes your trajectory. The best trajectory for the purpose of living longer is torward a corner, since it's farthest away. To get your effective knockback to be toward a corner you want to DI so that the vector sum of your DI and the base knockback is toward a corner -- for a move that sends you straight up, that's hard to a side (left or right).

 

[Hylian]

I can't believe people still don't know that you are supposed to DI perpendicular :/

 

[ColinJF]

Perpendicular isn't always best actually. But it's a good approximation.

 

[cutter]

Really?....

I don't see how Moving to the Sides counters Upwards momentum either......

It's simple geometry.

Think of a right triangle where one leg goes straight across and other leg is the trajectory your character is being sent at (ie straight up). The path you want to DI is the hypotenuse of this right triangle.

Because the hypotenuse is the longest length on a right triangle, you'll still travel the same distance, but you won't be at the blastzone when you can get out.

 

[Mmac]

Hmmm... Interesting...

 

[Pierce7d]

lol @ DI 101 going on in this thread.

Anyway, I heard about this from a friend, and then another friend linked me to the video, but I wanted to check out the thread, which I just read. This is NOT as broken as I thought it was. I doubt it will EVER save G&W from a vertical KO actually. I hope Inui and Spam try to use G&W on me, because that will make my life SOOO much easier not having to face MK who already has awesome recovery options, and lives stupidly long for his weight class anyway.

You'd need a stupid amount of space to use this AT, and G&W already recovered amazingly anyway. It's not as big of a deal as some people are making it out to be. It's good stuff, but needs no panic. The video does exaggerate though.

 

[infomon]

Yeah, lol @ DI 101.

Anyway, I guess it's my fault that this got hyped so much. The video doesn't intentionally exaggerate; I just used extreme examples because I thought it would be a clear demonstration of the phenomenon. And I was quite excited about the discovery lol, I thought it would be more important than I think it is now. Ah well, HYPE!

It does definitely help with some vertical KOs though, I think around 5-6% in some typical scenarios (of course it depends on the stage as well as the power of the hit). But anyway, if you're going straight up vertically it means you DI'd something wrong, anyway The relative % gain for using this technique increases with good DI.

Anyway, I'm really just popping in to take issue with this statement:

because that will make my life SOOO much easier not having to face MK who already has awesome recovery options, and lives stupidly long for his weight class anyway.

I think this is a misconception about MK. The only way he could be living stupidly long for his weight class, is if he has good momentum-cancelling options, right? It's true that some heavyweights like ROB, Bowser, and Snake have terrible momentum-cancelling options. But let's look at the others in MK's weight class:
(I'm going off the thread [Scientific analysis of character weights.])

130% Jigglypuff
135% Squirtle
138% Mr. Game & Watch
142% Fox Kirby
142% Metaknight
144% Sheik
145% Zelda Zero Suit Samus
146% Pikachu
147% Pikmin & Olimar
148% Peach
149% Falco

I've studied momentum-cancelling quite a bit, and here's how I'd rank these characters.
Reasonably fast aerial, to amazing momentum-cancel: G&W
Fast aerial, to good momentum-cancelling Special: Squirtle, Pikachu
Reasonable aerial, reasonable momentum-cancelling midair jump: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Zelda, ZSS, Olimar (not too sure about the relative ordering of these)
Amazingly fast aerial, but useless momentum-cancelling Special, and jump+glide that works rather poorly: Metaknight
Tragic; no effective momentum-cancelling ability: Kirby, Jigglypuff

so IMO MK shouldn't be surviving very well at all. His horizontal airspeed is awful, his jumps don't counteract knockback at all. His side-special can, but leaves him hopelessly vulnerable afterwards. MK has to use his Uair and then jump+glide, which is better than Jigglypuff, but his options are definitely worse than most of his weight category.

Lemme know if I'm wrong though...

 

[K 2]

What's pikachu's momentum cancelling special? His side b?

 

[infomon]

Yep. It's better than using Pika's jump, for horizontal momentum, and of course it saves you the huge vertical height of the jump; remember, the jump causes a huge extra vertical boost when you use it during knockback.

Although in my tests, I don't think Pika's side-B was as effective as Squirtle's side-B; I guess because Pika has more start-up lag, it isn't all that great... but still better than nothing.

Edit: and Pika's fast Uair helps pull it off in time.

 

[K 2]

Ok thanks. It won't do anything screwy (like fox's shine) and give me a momentum boost, will it? Didn't you say only three moves (Bucket, DK's up b, and Squirtle's side b) have momentum cancelling properties?

 

[infomon]

In the video, watch the Squirtle example very carefully. Pika's options are just like Squirtle's.

The first hit: Squirtle does nothing... knockback takes Squirtle well beyond the platforms, and his height reaches the height of the fifth platform.

Second hit: Squirtle jumps. Note that the jump is huge, because jumping gave Squirtle an extra boost. But although Squirtle goes much higher, he actually covers less ground horizontally when he uses the jump, so it can save you from the side, even though it might kill you off the top.

Third hit: Watch carefully; in the start-up of Squirtle's side-B, he gets a small extra boost just for using it. Squirtle's side-B normally cancels vertical momentum, but somehow Squirtle gets as high as the fifth platform, but much earlier (horizontally) than when he reached that height with the first hit where he didn't use side-B.

So the very act of using side-B caused a small penalty for using it, and when it's released it spends a lot of its time fighting the knockback. Pika's is the same. Even after the move finishes, you might not have regained full control of your momentum.

Alternatively, the Bucket instantly freezes all knockback. It doesn't even have to struggle against it, and there's no start-up time at all. Same with Yoshi's side-B and DK's up-B.

 

[K 2]

Would you recommend me (as a pika user) to use to momentum cancelling thing with side b? Pikachu's recovery is godly, so he almost always makes it back. His weakness is his weight (like G&W).

 

[_Phloat_]

I think Peir7ed means that MK lives so long because he is much, much harder to punish than anyone in his weight class. Sure strong moves knock him just as far, but.... who cares if you can't hit him?

 

[infomon]

K2: With Pikachu, I recommend that you DI so that your trajectory is towards one of the stage corners, use a fastfalled Uair as soon as possible to escape hitstun, then immediately use your side-B. That should be enough to allow you to avoid the killzones, so then you can return to the stage however you want (using jump/side-B/up-B, and whatever).

If you're going a really long distance, it's possible that a single side-B after the Uair won't be enough to fully counteract knockback. In this case you have three options:
1. use two side-B's in quick succession
2. charge the side-B enough that it will have a stronger effect, while still releasing it early enough that you don't die (very risky! and probably worse than option 1!)
3. if you're not close to the stage ceiling, use side-B and then jump

I didn't test any of those options enough to know what would be best, and it's very very rare that you'll be in circumstances where it matters.

Of course, if it's the ceiling that will kill you, just fastfall an Uair as early as possible during hitstun. For best results, hold down on the control stick as you C-stick the Uair. Do not use side-B in this case, since it boosts you upwards a bit extra.

Phloat: oic... that makes sense then, thanx....

 

[Tomkraven]

very interesting finding... keep the good job bro. Ill try it out as soon as i can.

 

[magikguy]

:S i dont know how you guys do this lol. my gnw dies at 110 >_> at fd

 

[Neb]

You probably aren't spacing correctly. Also use upb, it got the Marth buff.