INNsomnia V Biweeklies - Memphis, TN - Next: Mar 10th.

[PrinceZane]

Yeah, I agree, getting beat is getting beat. But, for example, in Nascar (and no i'm not a nascar fan at all), John Doe can win the biggest race of the year, but still not be top of the ranks because Sam Smith won every other race of the season. Yes, John Doe won the huge race so his rank should go up, but Sam stays on top b/c of the previous 3892458 races he won.

 

[McCloud]

I..already said that. >>

 

[PrinceZane]

reitterating

 

[SaberPrime]

Good debates all, sorry I was at work behind a firewall to get any comments in.

Both sides are putting up good arguments, here's my 2 cents.

Points:
Pros: good idea. I like a concrete structured enviornment. 1 + 2 = 3. Period. No arguments. No fuss. You show up, you kick butt, you walk away champ.
Cons: easy to only win a few majors and still be champ as opposed to the others who show up to all and support the tournament world in spirit of having fun and keeping the tourny running from 1 to the next, someone could be having an "off" night (or on fire) that is normally really really good (or not so...) and climbs in ranks at a high pointed tourney and finishes above someone that normally beats the other person 97/100 times

Panel:
Pros: don't have to worry about someone that's hot or not for 1 night, able to judge things on a consistant pattern seen by the individual, can rank people by patterns of progression rather than lucky streaks or unlucky placement on the tourney bracket
Cons: people letting personal opinions/emotions reflect in the placement of an individual in ranks, not knowing a particular person due to never have met or seen someone play.

Both have their ups and downs. Personally I prefer the panelist side. The list of panelists I suggested I'm sure are responsible and mature enough to not let petty stuff get in the way, and are diverse enough to cover and make arguments for or against someone in their region that others might not be familiar with.

I'll draw up the thread after a little more has been talked about this.

I agree with all of that, I don't believe that we will be able to make a solid Power Rankings system without making at least one person angry/irritated about something, but I don't think that can be helped. All of the panelists you suggested are great Zane, Chamberlin is pretty honest about people when it comes to seeing skill level (And of course Zane is Jesus so he HAS to be the 2nd AR guy.)

The power rankings will be fun, maybe I will be able to make it into the top 20 list, it will be something to strive for.

Can't wait till this bi-weekly, lots more people from AR are coming it looks like. Hopefully they bring some new and good competition to the INNsomnia scene.

I'm really concerned with how the ranking is going to work though, there is a lot of tournies around the 4 states, and since there are 4 states participating in our power rankings its going to be pretty tough determining who is where. A lot of the AR/TN/MS people go to INNsomnia bi-weeklies pretty frequently, but what about the AL people? They do not come to the bi-weeklies very often and it's going to be pretty tough for them if we put in the point based system. But like I said, both the point based and the panelists have their pros and cons, I think we will just have to wait and see...but hopefully it works out for the best.

Also, there is an AR tourny coming up in early December, would that be put into the power rankings as well?

 

[PrinceZane]

I would personally like to see any and every tournament be a factor in the power rankings.

I mean, obviously most of the people in the area will be at the INN stuff, but sure, not everyone is going to make it to every tourney all the time.

This isn't purely for INNsomnia, I just knew most of you guys would see it if I posted it here.

Any tournament (that is able to be recognized as a tournament... you + friend + 10 lvl9's ~no offence, lvl9~ doesn't cut it as a tourney, duh) can be considered.

I mean, if you go to MLG and place 12th, yeah, that's **** good and should reflect on your performance as a smasher.

All the INN stuff will be considered for the rank system, not because its my tourney, but b/c it seems to be the biggest thing in the area (if i'm wrong let me know, i'd be interested in seeing what else is going on), but other tournies are and will be definitely considered.

 

[McCloud]

I agree, if you go to START and dominate and come out in first, naturally that should be represented in the rankings. MLGS, GA tourneys, anywhere reputable.

 

[lvl9]

I dont aggree with the panelist, chamberlin is a racist. And 10 Lvl9s could take over the world.
-wow, McCloud posts something intelligent, then i take his spot and post retarted crap. oh well
its the Grey Goose talking....

 

[McCloud]

ho ho.

 

[shroom]

Anyway I've decided either method would be bad if there was not some type of championship.

...

You do realize that to get the "top 4" we have to do some kind of method of determining who the "top 4" is right?

Yes If you will read I obviously said that there would be a method either point or pannel. The Championship would a way to make check up on the system. What you said agrees completely with my Idea.

I would personally like to see any and every tournament be a factor in the power rankings.

YOu made me Remeber why I was originally for the points because then anyone in any tournament have some sort of poweranking. THere is know way the pannel is going to be able to decide who is better newbie 126 and 127.

They both do have there pros and cons however, and like some people said maybe a combination would be good. The pannel wouldnt have to worry about the low ranks and then everyone could have a rank if they go to a big enough tourney.

 

[Nite]

IHSB - Y
Lucifer- Youre too cool. Im glad that you know i have hidden skill that im afraid to let loose on the rest of the smashing populus.
Everyone else on the subject of rankings- Well we all know how it goes...
1st Nite
2nd Nite
3rd Nite
4th Nite
5th Nite
6th Nite
7th Nite
8th Nite
9th Lvl9
problem solved!

Amen. Lol.

Well, I don't think a point system is neccessary. I think that it would just make things more complicated. I say we just have a good group of panelists (At least 2 a state) who know thier area and they know who's good and place high. Everyone of the panelists are going to know each other anyway, so I don't see much of a problem with people argueing about who is good and who is not. I'm ready to start this, I'm excited.

 

[CO]

This is getting to be a nice debate.

My opinion.
Points system:
A suggestion is that points would be a factor but not the main deciding factor of the system. The panelists should be there to sort it all out and figure out what is what.

Say for example, I place high for a really long time and accumalate lots of points. Thats all well and good, but if I start sucking it up and get last a few times then, even if I have more points then one person, I should be ranked higher if they have a more consistent winning streak.

Another thing is that points may need to be altered to match the tourney they are applied. Say for instants that there is a tournament with 30 people and top ten get points. Thats fine, but if there is a tournament with only 10 people then the points need to be altered because it is unfair to those at the 30 man tournament that they fought and didn't get any points while at the other tournament the person in last gets points just for being there. That would lead to some people only going to tournaments with fewer people just to get easy points.

The only other thing I have to suggest is that we do this post-Maoi Easter Island civilization. We find a remote island, closer is better, and we all start out from a certain point. Then we race to the island in search of an item(the first laid egg in Easter Island). First one to come back...ten points.^^

*edit*
Superficial Observations. My custom title dissappeared for some reason. I am sad.

 

[shroom]

This is getting to be a nice debate.

My opinion.
Points system:
A suggestion is that points would be a factor but not the main deciding factor of the system. The panelists should be there to sort it all out and figure out what is what.

I agree. It definitely should be one factor but not the whole thing and the same goes for pannelist they should be a factor, probably even the biggest factor but definitely not the only thing.

Also with points it makes an easy way to rank everyone not in the top twenty or so spots and gives a little added insentive for people to go to tournaments that they know they will lose. I mean if you were ranked 45 and your best friend 44 you definitley want to go to the tournament to try and pass them. The pannelist would be there to make rules concerning more higher ranked indivduals like if #2 always beats #1 and #1 has more points then pannelist would intervien and give 1st to the player who is actually best not the one with most points. In the other case the pannelist probably would have no Idea if number 44 or 45 is better so it would be decided by points alone.

I think that would give the best of both worlds.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I think we all kind of agree on point system and panel. It satisfies both sides. If you have a problem with the points just discuss with the panel and maybe they will see your way. What should be debated now is who is on the panel. Once that is dicided they can come up with a point system, etc. Some one make a poll and we can all vote or something.

 

[shroom]

Good point John. someone mentioned 2 people from each state so that makes 6 or 8 and they definitley shouldnt be from the same crew(or city for that matter). That sounds good but definitly no more than 8. We dont want our pannelist all in dissagreement. So To many or to few would be bad. So does atleast 4 at most 8 sound good?

 

[BMWfalco]

i think about 8 sounds good but i don't like the point system thing. i think a pannel would be the best way because say we started points now with the biweekly coming up and say lance couldn't come because of work the next day or something similar he didn't get any points so he drops in the ranking. i don't think power rankings are about attendance they are about skill. the pannelists would all know who has skill and who isn't quite as good.

 

[moogle]

Someone needs to decide if you guys want to do "INNsomnia biweekly rankings" or true tri-/quad-state rankings. For INNsomnia rankings, you might need approval from higher powers (like Omnigamer) for rankings centered around a city. But this INNsomnia region spans 3-4 states, so I think you could do it. Also, it would be more accurate than true tri-/quad-state rankings.

For true tri-/quad-state rankings.... what about the semi-retired and retired smashers? JCpwn? Scribner? Aurafox? CAHphoenix? It's difficult to gauge them versus people who have been attending recent biweeklies. And what about TheReflexWonder? He associates with those Georgia people, but he's on the AL side of the AL/GA border, so he was excluded from the GA rankings. I think he'd be top 20 in TN/MS/AR/AL.

So... if you choose "INNsomnia rankings," you'll probably want at least half of the panelists to be from Memphis and its suburbs. If you choose tri-/quad-state rankings, then two from each state makes sense.

Also, I envision the panel working like this: each panelist submits their own version of the top 20 list (or top whatever), then someone collects them all and gives 20 points for a first place vote, 19 points for a second place vote, etc. Add up all the points each person gets, and make a final rankings list. This is the way the coach's poll in college football works, and it's probably the way they do the national top25 Smash rankings and maybe the character tier list too.


edit: misspelled "submits"

 

[BMWfalco]

i nominate moogle![ moves hand up and down]

 

[PrinceZane]

Well, I still stand by my picks for panelists. Again, my votes are for:

AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - Chad (Southaven, MS) and MookieRah (Tupelo, MS*)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and KOkingpin (Murfreesboro, TN**)
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL*) and Thief (Tuscaloosa, AL**)

To my knowledge, all of the above know each other and are in good standings with each other, so there would be no bickering about favoritism or anything like that, as we can respect each other's opinions and beliefs. None of the aforementioned are in the same crew (to my knowledge) and located decently in different areas of their represented states.

--------------
* - Not sure of the exact location if this is wrong, sorry.
** - Possible spelling error - too lazy to look it up.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Edit:

Nice post Moogle. I didn't think of that (maybe someone posted but I didn't catch it right) but I like the coach's poll idea. It works well.

It's up to you guys. I'll put together something to submit to Omni to see if we can even do this. I think an "INN" only rank would be cool, but would it be redundant to the biweeklies? I mean... we can see the average of how people rank at the biweeklies. Plus that kinda screws over the people that drive far and can only make 1 a month or less vs those who come all the time.

This is hard. >_<

 

[lvl9]

shouldnt the panelist be elected? does smashboards have a poll thread format where we could elect panelist?

 

[SaberPrime]

Well, I still stand by my picks for panelists. Again, my votes are for:

AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - Chad (Southaven, MS) and MookieRah (Tupelo, MS*)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and KOkingpin (Murfreesboro, TN**)
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL*) and Thief (Tuscaloosa, AL**)

To my knowledge, all of the above know each other and are in good standings with each other, so there would be no bickering about favoritism or anything like that, as we can respect each other's opinions and beliefs. None of the aforementioned are in the same crew (to my knowledge) and located decently in different areas of their represented states.

Zane I think you are the only person in AR that isn't in STFU lol.

 

[shroom]

lvl9- I dont think election will be totally neccessary but could be done if enough people want it. If they were elected It would be very similar to what zane said anyway. But, does everyone on that list want to be on the panel?

BMWfalco-I was orignally thinking points. But now I just think using the points would be good to keep track of those below 20th. THen what moogle said would work for the top 20.

Moogle- I am not for sure but having semi-retired and retired smashers in the ranks does seem a little unfair. I mean yes they might be the best but if they arent going to play any more shouldn't they be out of the ranking system? Atleast until they start playing again and taking on series challengers to there rank.

lvl9, BMWfalco, Prince Zane I will start keeping track of votes. Rules everyone can vote for two people from each state from AL, AR, MS, and TN. So far its:

AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - Chad (Southaven, MS) and MookieRah (Tupelo, MS*)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and KOkingpin (Murfreesboro, TN**)
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL*) and Thief (Tuscaloosa, AL**)

With 2 for moogle. Also anyone who recieves votes and doesnt want to be on the list just post and we will take you out of the running.

Let the voting begin.

 

[Thief]

Cah doesn't count anymore, last time I played him he was very mediocre.

 

[Lance87]

no offfense to KOKingpin, but he hasn't even been to a bi-weekly or a lot of tournaments in the area to even kow who is good or not.

AR - Zane and Chamberlin
MS - Chad and MookieRah
TN - Nite and either me, fizz, mario'scapeabilities or smashter link. don't think that i'm being biased tpwards my crew because i'm most certainly not, the fact is that we are good players from the area and if we were in the panel would argue intelligently. Either one of us would be a better pick than KOKingpin (no offense dude).
AL - Thief and Moogle seem like good picks.


@Shroom- as for your comment about a panel not being able to decide between "newbie 126 + 127.... That's why power rankings usually have somewhere around a top 20. It is unneccesary to add tons and tons of people. Do a little research on some other power ranking threads where they work with a panel, they're usually correct. As for the panel being biased, that wouldn't happen. With a panel of about 10 people, there won't be someone on the list that doesn't deserve it. The other panelists will override there biased decision. That's why a diverse panel will be better than a pont system.

Iori is loud and can be pretty annoying(when he's not making us laugh our ***** off) but that wouldn't stop me from admitting that he's pretty high in the power rankings.

edit-

I just read moogle's post about putting points on each of the panelists votes and i agree that this would be a great thing to do.

 

[Handorin]

I would basically say what others would say good about a panel, but since I seem to be late in posting most things, I dont feel like typing it out. >_>

Panelist:
AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - Chad (Southaven, MS) and MookieRah (Tupelo, MS*)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and IHSB(Memphis, TN**)
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL*) and Thief (Tuscaloosa, AL**)

Those would be my panelist nominees. No offense to KOKingpin, but I think someone who has been around longer would be a better choice. I appreciate and realize the work he is putting into revitilizing the Mid/East TN smash scene, but I dont know how much he would know about general skill level of people now other than what people say. However, with his effort and greater vision of the TN smash scene (soon), he could become a panelist.

Besdies, who said these panelist had to be permanent?

 

[Lance87]

I'm probably most likely 90% sure i'm coming to this bi-weekly regardless of sleep loss/closeness to death....if only for doubles.


So who wanted Phantasy Star Universe? McCloud and Lvl9?

It's brand new!

 

[shroom]

Lance, I thought the power ranking would be better to have points to keep rank of the lower people. I mean it is pretty much official the pannelist will control the top 20. If we had a method for ranking the rest then 1st- anyone can have a ranking to compare with people on there skill level and 2nd- It would also encourage people to show up to tournaments. I strongly suspect a lot of people posting probably wouldn't make the top 20 in these four states, including myself, but alot of them would like to see there own rank in some form.

NOTE: You must have had an account made before today to vote. to cut down on cheaters. If you know someone with multiple accounts just say something. Also if you user name is IHSB wearing a mustache you can't vote. Vote ends November 30th.

My vote AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - MookieRah (Tupelo, MS*)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and Ihavespaceballs
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL*)

totals zane-4 chamberlin-4
mookierah-4 chad-3
nite-4 IHSB-2 KOKingpin-1
Moogle-5 Thief-4

Lance I didnt know what to put for you second TN vote you have plenty of time to decide though..

 

[SaberPrime]

no offfense to KOKingpin, but he hasn't even been to a bi-weekly or a lot of tournaments in the area to even kow who is good or not.

AR - Zane and Chamberlin
MS - Chad and MookieRah
TN - Nite and either me, fizz, mario'scapeabilities or smashter link. don't think that i'm being biased tpwards my crew because i'm most certainly not, the fact is that we are good players from the area and if we were in the panel would argue intelligently. Either one of us would be a better pick than KOKingpin (no offense dude).
AL - Thief and Moogle seem like good picks.

Those are my votes, I would say pretty much anyone from Run7 are good people to choose from for the panel, I also think that Kyo or Ichigo would also be good to consider being on the panel as well, that way there wouldn't be 2 Run7 members on the panel.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I would basically say what others would say good about a panel, but since I seem to be late in posting most things, I dont feel like typing it out. >_>

Panelist:
AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - Chad (Southaven, MS) and MookieRah (Tupelo, MS*)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and IHSB(Memphis, TN**)
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL*) and Thief (Tuscaloosa, AL**)

Those would be my panelist nominees. No offense to KOKingpin, but I think someone who has been around longer would be a better choice. I appreciate and realize the work he is putting into revitilizing the Mid/East TN smash scene, but I dont know how much he would know about general skill level of people now other than what people say. However, with his effort and greater vision of the TN smash scene (soon), he could become a panelist.

Besdies, who said these panelist had to be permanent?

As flattered as I am for you suggesting me Hand, that solves the possible problem of having 2 Run7 guys while introducing the problem of having 2 DML guys. Both situations leave plenty of room for accusations of bias, and I don't really want that. So, as long as we'd be the only crew with more than our fair share of panelists, I de-nominate myself. Everyone else on that list has my vote though.

 

[-Chad-]

I say that there should defintally only be one representative from each crew if there's going to be a panel. It's not that I wouldn't trust it, but others might not.

Moogle's idea has me sold, it sounds good.

I also think Lance should be one of the panelists without a doubt.

 

[3GOD]

I don't know if we should go all the way to KY/Carolinas... that starts getting other regions involved, but good thinking about them

I'm thinking we could go:

AR - Me and Chamberlin
TN - Nite and KO (or Aura?)
MS - Chad and Mookie
AL - Thief and Moogle

Ranks could be awarded based on tournament appearances and placement, rate of improvement (or lack thereof)

Edit:
And being 4 states we could do top 20, that would give a possible 5 per state (since we're all awesome, etc. )

This seems the most reasonable to me. I don't think that any of the 4 states has enough people to have its own thread. I also prefer the idea of panelists - how would the points system work with people attending out of region tournaments?

Also, consider if Darkrain lived in Memphis and never attended a biweekly/small tournament, but came around to the big tournaments and pwned...should he not be #1 in the power rankings? It seems to me that the rankings should reflect who is the "best" smasher in the region, and I just don't think a points system can really be developed to accurately reflect that.

 

[Nite]

Panelist:
AR - Zane (West Memphis, AR) and Chamberlin (Little Rock, AR)
MS - Chad (Southaven, MS) and MookieRah (Tupelo, MS)
TN - Nite (Memphis, TN) and Lance87(Memphis, TN)
AL - Moogle (Huntsville, AL) and Thief (Tuscaloosa, AL)

I nominated Lance, not because he is in my crew, but because I know that he is a good player and he knows what he is talking about. I know that there are good players like Kyo and Iori in Memphis that are really good players, but I don't think that they are suitable to be panelists. Not saying that they are not good material for it, but they are never around, so whenever the panel would need to meet and discuss, they would be hard to find. And as for not having 2 members of the Run7 in the panel. There aren't that many people in TN who show up at a lot of tournaments besides the Run7 and the Bloodline, so it's kinda hard. Lets see how the voting turns out though.

 

[McCloud]

Funny thing is, we now have to deal with regional mods who will determine ATL south rankings.. >_>

(I vote Zane for regional mod, but that means we can't spam this thread..)

 

[Handorin]

Darn it Jack, I forgot you were in DML. >_< I definetly support the only 1 person from a crew thing, especially from one state. I might as well switch back to KOKingpin. I still believe in my last argument (the general idea), but Im sure with START and other meetings, he can easily get to know us.

Others in TN (which seems to be the most debate) who have been around much longer can make good panelist. Just because they have not been to a lot of the biweeklies (tournaments, as Nite seems to put it) can just as easily judge. There might be reasons beyond their control to not attend some of these (too far, parental constrictions, activities, money, etc). Outside play often happens and you can still determine skill outside of tournament play.
Having the panel meet in person is not nessicary, but would be nice. You can easily use chat programs such as AIM to figure out a ranking. Other than biweeklies, when do you expect all of the panelist to meet? Even then, all proposed panelist are not always there and privacy would definetly infringed on. (Outside influence)

 

[shroom]

change my two blank votes to Chad and Theif.

This makes totals

zane-8 chamberlin-8
mookierah-8 chad-8
nite-8 Ihavespaceballs-removed/2 KOKingpin-1 lance-2
Moogle-9 Thief-8

I am going to interveen and make a suggestion: the 7 with 8 or more votes should be in. I believe they are all from different crews. Suggestion #2 Milk and Cookies, if I am right, looks like the main crew not in that list. Suggestion #3 Handorin and ecspecially Mccloud has shown the most interest in the idea from that crew.

Simplified: I think we should keep those 7 and the last spot should go to milk and cookies. Preferably either Mccloud or Handorin they have show the most intrest in the vote.

How does that sound to everyone?

 

[Nite]

The best way to meet would be a chatroom of some sort, most likely AIM.

Handorin- The only reason I would like all of the people on the panel to go to tournaments regularly is because we have to keep updating this list every once in a while, so I think that the best panelists would be people that are at the tournaments seeing how good people are at the moment and how they improve.

Shroom- You don't know any of these people, so I don't see how your vote would count, even for me. No offense.

 

[Handorin]

Well, I know with me (since someone has intrest in me now) I can drive myself now. This means I will try and smash a lot more regulary with people and go to more tournaments.

P.S. Anyone want to smash this Saturday? >_>
P.P.S. Go to the smash back room and nominate zane for a regional mod.

 

[-Chad-]

So yeah shroom, coming to any biweeklies?

 

[shroom]

Shroom- You don't know any of these people, so I don't see how your vote would count, even for me. No offense.

I definitley understand where your coming from. No offense taken. Actually though I was on here a long time before I ever posted on this site. I mean a while even before I made this account I had another one I made but forgot what it was now. The first people I voted for I either saw they had a big intrest in it or for IHSB I've played with him many times. The last two you are completely right I just had those two blank at first and switched them because they were already unanimous. I know it deffinitly seems like I have know Idea, but simply put I have been reading post from these people for a long time before I ever posted.

Edit:
Oh yeah and the reason I made the suggestion is because the 7 spots look pretty solid and we need some one from a different or no crew who is from TN. Those two looked good to me.

Chad I've been planning to come for a while but as I don't have a car it is difficult. If I can I think I might do a double tourney trip going to ASU Beebe then to the Bi weekly's Dec second. If I can.

 

[McCloud]

But see, we still can't go on the basis of how people "improve"; hard facts go first..

 

[Nite]

What do you mean we can't go by improvement? Exactly what do you mean by hard facts?