Instant Ground Throw and Single Naner Lock (0 death combo with naner lock in PROVEN!)

[denizen]

great stuff guys! can't wait to try these at's out! Single Naner Lock (SNL) ftw!

 

[xoxokev]

The single nanner lock is awesome in Chrome Pirate's video. Too good

EDIT: P1, I think you have to fast fall with the control stick... not the c-stick... maybe

 

[ADHD]

Hm, this is more of a techchase then an infinite, but one day, one day their will be a single bannana lock!

No, this is a true lock I swear to god if ppl start questioning me its going to aggrivate me bc ican't record offline

 

[AlphaZealot]

The question is simply whether you can recover and throw the banana back down before the person recovers and is capable of rolling. It may be character dependent because the trip animations (and their length) vary from character to character.

If we had frame data we could confirm.

I'm on the fence and could see it going either way.

 

[ADHD]

Okay.

I've been hosting a Smash-fest for the last 18 or so hours, and I've been playing around with this technique for the last two. I naturally C-stick all of my aerial attacks, so the actual technique was pretty simple for me to nail down in a matter of minutes.

From what I've observed, it is - contrary to popular belief - not inescapable. I tested it on a few different characters of varying sizes and weight classes, and although the size issue might be something that's easy to adjust to, there's no conceivable way you would be able to account for all the different tripping animation lengths as well as the distance of the tripping itself. I had one of my crew-mates randomly hold directions to roll in after I tripped him up, and he was able to escape almost every time. Most lesser players' tendencies will be to roll immediately after being tripped, and they will do just that on the first available frame. Your opponents have to quite literally be ******** in order for this to work.

The single banana lock against a wall, conversely, is amazing.

Other than that, I can't really buy into this being really effective at all. You're going to have to show me a video of an actual application in a real match.

I know it's impossible on luigi. I guess this will just have to stay a wall infinite bc it is too **** difficult to get consistently. Btw lien then, you are not a robot, it is a true infinite its just way too hard to get that fast fall frame perfect unless it's against a wall. The fast fall determines whether it is escapable or not when it's non-wall. Trust me, you were not doing it perfectly timed. I can chain a character going left with the single naner lock, just not going right across the stage. Regardless I will try and think of a use other than the wall infinite. You can only fast fall with the control stick sadly I just tested it with the c-stick fast fall instead and it's too inconsistent as the tapping has to be just right. This would be absolutely possible if you could fast fall with the c-stick alone because you can control your DI well enough to keep someone in the lock. maybe there's another way to do this.

 

[Le_THieN]

No, this is a true lock I swear to god if ppl start questioning me its going to aggrivate me bc ican't record offline

No one - especially me - is calling into question the actual integrity of your character by casting doubt on the advanced technique; it's just that I personally tested this tactic myself for quite some time a few hours ago with additional human assistance, and I made little gains with it. On that note alone, I think I'm allowed to have reservations about your claim, but conversely, I would also love to give you the benefit of the doubt by giving you a chance to upload further evidence from a real match or something.

Personally, I find greater utility from this technique in expanding my repertoire of setups. Where glide-tossing might be shut down against certain, aggressive characters (*cough*ROY_R*cough*), this approach will at least open up an opportunity for me to initiate a trip from a different angle and lead into new glide-toss setups on the ground.

At most, I've gotten it to work three times against a human opponent in an actual match, but only because I deployed more in tech-chasing fashion than trying to actually lock them on the ground. If your fingers turn out to be much faster than mine, then I look forward to watching you successfully back your claims here very soon. Simple as that.

For the record, I still really love the way this looks. =)

EDIT: I guess you responded to my initial post while I was typing this one up...

I know it's impossible on luigi. I guess this will just have to stay a wall infinite bc it is too **** difficult to get consistently. Btw lien then, you are not a robot, it is a true infinite its just way too hard to get that fast fall frame perfect unless it's against a wall. The fast fall determines whether it is escapable or not when it's non-wall. Trust me, you were not doing it perfectly timed. I can chain a character going left with the single naner lock, just not going right across the stage. Regardless I will try and think of a use other than the wall infinite. You can only fast fall with the control stick sadly I just tested it with the c-stick fast fall instead and it's too inconsistent as the tapping has to be just right.

Like I said, if your fingers are faster than mine, then I'd love for you and others to make use of this in exactly this fashion. At the end of the day, though, chaining-tripping someone across the stage with one banana only amounts to style points. If I end up nailing down some sort of consistency with the technique here in a few weeks, I would use it more to diversify the my approach methods rather than deploy it as a possible true lock.

But let's think about that for a second: is it really such a bad thing that this is more practical to use as a tech-chasing device rather than a true but infinitely more difficult "true lock?" People on this boards really get hung up on trying to seek out methods to 0-death or 0-[high percent] their opponents. Much of Diddy's current meta-game is already based on trying to simply overwhelm opponents with a salvo of projectiles. I think there's greater value in this technique in using it to try to bait people into really compromising positions, and then punishing them at the first available from they recover from their get-up roll, as opposed to just desperately trying to lock them against the ground.

That's how I currently feel about the tactic, but like Vyse has already pointed out, there's a bit more of experimenting that needs to be done.

 

[AlphaZealot]

We need to make a list that ranks every character from shortest trip animation to longest.

 

[ADHD]

Okay, here's the easier method:

Sh, throw the banana NOT IMMEDIATELY but a half of a second after the SH is initiated. Then you can simply tap the c-stick twice with good timing and wah-lah! What happens is that for some reason a slightly (just very slightly) delayed throw allows you to fast fall with the c-stick alone with two taps. One throws the naner down, and the second fast falls while catching it. With this method, you can DI and space all you want while keeping them in the lock. It is much easier but however, requires alot of practice and muscle memory. It is not something you can just do in 5 minutes and I shall edit the front page.

 

[ADHD]

Here go try that in training mode now I got it on snake and ganon and I felt no difference in difficulty than against kirby or meta ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Player-1]

Okay, here's the easier method:

Sh, throw the banana NOT IMMEDIATELY but a half of a second after the SH is initiated. Then you can simply tap the c-stick twice with good timing and wah-lah! What happens is that for some reason a slightly (just very slightly) delayed throw allows you to fast fall with the c-stick alone with two taps. One throws the naner down, and the second fast falls while catching it. With this method, you can DI and space all you want while keeping them in the lock. It is much easier but however, requires alot of practice and muscle memory. It is not something you can just do in 5 minutes and I shall edit the front page.

The way I've been doing it and the way I explained in the video:

SH, throw the nana down (one tap of the c stick), catch the nana with the c-stick and fast fall down (all with one tap of the c stick). I used the c-stick for a total of 2 reps. In my video, I purposely did not set the computer to "walk" at that time simply because the tactic was too hard for me to do consistantly against it at the time but I HAVE got it to work my way against a computer set to walk that way, but it seems hard.

Is this the way you are talking about Chrome?

 

[pastaboy]

hahaha this is cool gj chrome, seems like u can expirment to do other stuff too. maybe z drop to nair to dair.

 

[Cranberry Rogue]

There are some really fun variations to the whole throwing-bananas-downward thing. =P

It's not a lock or anything, but what I've been doing is shorthop --> Z-throw down --> Z-catch and Z-throw again --> Z-catch --> Forward glide toss --> Forward/down smash. You basically just have to hold down and mash on Z until you hit the ground, then follow up with whatever.

 

[Player-1]

I'd also like to point out that ground tossing works with naner locking pretty well to. Dash ground toss the banana down for an instant throw as you move up with the ground toss for the start works well. Also Chromepirate did you know ground tossing works even better and easier when you use it to grab a banana on a platform? I don't know if you ready knew this but I messed with it on platform stages and saw some really cool stuff with it and it's even faster than z grabbing > forward throw a banana. Just though I'd point that out.

Oh and apon reading your first post, I saw that you said you can't do it on BF forever. I've done it to a walking computer before but the timing is different, I'd have to work with it before I can explain it to you clearly but I talked about it in my video but to a computer on the "stand" mode

 

[BrawlBro]

I always thought the way dair canceled could be made into something but I didnt have the brains to make it into this , awesome stuff chrome.

true lock or not I see this being very useful. ANY mix up to banana combos/strings is always useful. The single naner lock is especially flashy too so you gotta love that lol.


---goes to practice--

 

[ADHD]

I haz new info. Practice on pikachu and wolf, it's literally an infinite on them and they have such long tripping animations that you can ping pong them back and forth across the stage if you're really good at this. I'm getting consistent at this and I'm able to chain every char 5 times in a row before I screw up. I need to practice more. Yes I knew that player 1. I also realized something, the easiest set up for the naner lock is just to run up to them and perform it XD if they shield it you can't be punished because you DI away from their shield anyway. I wonder if you can recatch the banana if it hits their shield.

 

[pastaboy]

ok **** i need to practice this asap >_< *goes to ebay

 

[Count]

Agreed on the trip animation list.

We really need an updated guide of some sort.

I need to work on these ATs, been way too busy the past couple days.

Diddy boards are hopping with awesome stuff as of late.

 

[Advent Lee]

We need to make a list that ranks every character from shortest trip animation to longest.

I agree.

This is extremely flashy sort of like double dribbling or pivot dribbling back and forth, the only difference is that this seems to have a lot of potential and practical use.

Very good work Chrome. Personally I have been trying to come up with a single naner lock of my own. The most I came up with was throwing a naner and then z-catching it with a fast fall rinse and repeat.

:monkey:

 

[Luigi player]

lol I could do it in 5 mins.
I don't think it's any difficult...

But doing it during a match is not easy though. I could only do it once and made a mistake really fast. And it's hard to keep a MetaKnight on the ground when you're Diddy Kong...

 

[ADHD]

lol I could do it in 5 mins.
I don't think it's any difficult...

But doing it during a match is not easy though. I could only do it once and made a mistake really fast. And it's hard to keep a MetaKnight on the ground when you're Diddy Kong...

It's easy to do it when someone's not moving :D If you can master it with the computer in training mode on walk then you can brag

 

[Luigi player]

Whoops I guess I pressed quote instead of edit >.<

 

[Luigi player]

It's easy to do it when someone's not moving :D If you can master it with the computer in training mode on walk then you can brag

ok I guess he can get out of it :o

On the second banana dthrow I always press the cstick too fast down and hit him with a dair. This happens all the time, and when it doesn't happen he is getting out of it... is it even possible to trap him? But maybe it's better to do a dair then, because 3/4 of FD only give the enemy like 14 % I think. ^^

If I do it to a dair then it does 21 % and he can't get out of it =)

(sh over him Cstick down 2 times and then sh over him again and cstick down twice again but this time faster so he can't get out and you actually do the dair to hit him)

I think this is the best thing you can do with it or maybe it also leads to a smash attack, but he can get out of it if you want to "single naner lock" him, because it doesn't work... or maybe it does if you're frame perfect...

 

[ADHD]

ok I guess he can get out of it :o

On the second banana dthrow I always press the cstick too fast down and hit him with a dair. This happens all the time, and when it doesn't happen he is getting out of it... is it even possible to trap him? But maybe it's better to do a dair then, because 3/4 of FD only give the enemy like 14 % I think. ^^

If I do it to a dair then it does 21 % and he can't get out of it =)

(sh over him Cstick down 2 times and then sh over him again and cstick down twice again but this time faster so he can't get out and you actually do the dair to hit him)

I think this is the best thing you can do with it or maybe it also leads to a smash attack, but he can get out of it if you want to "single naner lock" him, because it doesn't work... or maybe it does if you're frame perfect...

If you practice it up alot you can keep ppl in the lock across the stage but it takes alot of practice so I'm just gonna keep at it.

 

[BrawlBro]

so i think we agree the best method is to tap cstick down twice but can we talk about DI?

In my short amount of testing I do sort of a start stop motion, keeping steady while throwing and catching, then hard DI'ing inbetween (how do you spell inbetween?). But on lighter/shorter characters it seems to work better to keep just a light steady DI.

 

[Luigi player]

Ok it does work... but it's really difficult and still doesn't do much damage.

Here's a combo I came up with: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=yRTpdNIL_as

I think MK can airdodge the fair, but I can't really test it. He can also DI away from the upthrown banana so you might have to glidetoss it upwards for it to hit.

 

[ADHD]

that's pretty awesome

 

[Player-1]

On bigger characters like Bowsers or DK you have to tap the c stick for the dair VERY fast or you won't catch it but when they go into their trap animation you can't do it as fast. I was playing a lvl 9 computer in versus mode just to test it in somewhat of a real match, I could easily combo into it but I could only do it 2 or 3 times before I screwed up.

 

[TheNix]

I'd like to see some more testing on the single banana infinite. If we can at least confirm it to work on specific characters (Pikachu, Wolf, Metaknight, ?), I may have to pick up Diddy as a secondary.

 

[AlphaZealot]

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=yRTpdNIL_as

I must learn to do this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Goddamit! Luigi Player, stop getting better. I want to beat you! I can't do that if you throw 39% comboes at me :/

 

[Player-1]

Chromepirate, update first post with my video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd84oApOEoc

 

[Xionix]

wow this is pretty awesome. props to you chrome for finding this out.

 

[ADHD]

Player 1, that is weird. I actually just randomly tried it out on DK and I was wondering why I was having such a hard time with it. I'll have to update that. Tall characters aren't the problem, it's the really fat ones. Would this apply to dedede as well? anyway i'll keep playing around with it and see if I get new info.

 

[Advent Lee]

I'm really liking this tech. New combo's, approaches, etc... are coming about this.

Again good work to everyone that's furthering the advancement of this (Chrome Pirate, Player 1, Luigi Player, etc...). My only fear is that this along with other things such as NinjaLinks videos and tourny wins will bring about a flood of Diddy players. And that could be a good thing or a bad thing for our meta game.

:monkey:

 

[Luigi player]

I'm really liking this tech. New combo's, approaches, etc... are coming about this.

Again good work to everyone that's furthering the advancement of this (Chrome Pirate, Player 1, Luigi Player, etc...). My only fear is that this along with other things such as NinjaLinks videos and tourny wins will bring about a flood of Diddy players. And that could be a good thing or a bad thing for our meta game.

:monkey:

Yeah there will probably be many new Diddys... >.<
I always knew Diddy had so much potential with his bananas. Maybe he ends up being top tier and everyone will play him

Ah btw, in my combo the COM was set at walking and I looked at the help thing in training mode and it IS a 5 hit combo, so maybe he can't airdodge?

Btw, does anyone know why the dthrown banana sometimes makes 4 % and sometimes 6 %? This is in training mode. I always smash-thrown it so it's not because of that. I have no idea what's causing it...

 

[Dreadz18x]

dnt let diddy become dat char. everyone played cuz everyone else is doin it.
like sheif and marth in melee.

 

[Advent Lee]

That's exactly one of the things that I'm afraid of... And as soon as that happens people will try to find out all Diddy's weaknesses, the same way that were trying to do for MK. The only difference is that Diddy has A LOT of exploitable weaknesses. That could make or break us true Diddy users.

:monkey:

 

[Dreadz18x]

exploiting weaknesses cud be a good thing.. if all da weaknesses are thrown out into da open. more players will come together and find was to counter dat weakness.
lol i like da diddy boards. dey dnt cry, ***** and complain like falco boards.

 

[ADHD]

You guys, advent you have nothing to worry about because the better diddys will shut the worser ones down in dittos. Dittos are the future, and I'm liking that because it is my favorite matchup. Believe me, diddy is very hard to play as competitively and you really have to know your ****. Many of the newer flustering diddy players will lose patience.

Anyway, I have ridiculous news. I found out that this can lead to a spike commonly when you bring them to the edge of the stage with the single naner lock I'm going to find the specifics. New ridiculous 0 death combo and wall infinte, how do you guys like the sound of that? I'm getting the hang of this now and my latest problem with keeping them in the lock is my DI during it so I'll have to get the hang of that.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

That's exactly one of the things that I'm afraid of... And as soon as that happens people will try to find out all Diddy's weaknesses, the same way that were trying to do for MK. The only difference is that Diddy has A LOT of exploitable weaknesses. That could make or break us true Diddy users.

:monkey:

That's BETTER, not worse. Obviously not better for winning personal money, but for making us better solid players. If you have weaknesses and leaving them open, then you're not a good solid player. You're just playing inexperienced players who don't know what to do YET.