Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[Dark Sonic]

did it ?

They still play SF2 in tournaments.

 

[Serris]

^Did SF2 scene die when SF3 came out? huh?

Brawl and Melee aren't your typical fighting games.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Brawl and Melee aren't your typical fighting games.

We still play melee today.

It's actually growing in a lot of places (Atlantic South for one).

 

[Serris]

We still play melee today.

It's actually growing in a lot of places (Atlantic South for one).

But it's shrinking in others. Even you must realize that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But it's shrinking in others. Even you must realize that.

By that same notion, brawl is shrinking in some areas as well (the places where melee is growing).

Brawl is dying?

It is entirely possible for a community to support two, possibly even 3 closely related games (as it's been done before and is still being done now).

Hell, a few months ago we found a new tech in melee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc

 

[Boofy!]

Hell, a few months ago we found a new tech in melee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc

That's pretty sweet actually, yeesh I really need to go to melee boards more often

 

[DRaGZ]

I think the two communities are co-existing nicely.

I think tensions start flaring up once ******** topics like this appear.

 

[yummynbeefy]

with no tripping and l canceling it is
also possible mk ban (im on the boarder with this one)

otherwise id say melee

 

[nightSN]

huh? i think lucario needs secondaries o.o

 

[Geist]

I think the two communities are co-existing nicely.

I think tensions start flaring up once ******** topics like this appear.

qft
I don't know why, but I'm perfectly fine with the Brawl boards until I see a thread like this. For some reason I just start ranting. Like now.

People who say brawl is in a stage where its metagame is simpler are only half right.
First of all, there weren't people working Meleeand taking apart every aspect of it when it first came out. When Brawl was released, there was an explosion to find advanced techniques, exploits, glitches, etc. Technically speaking, brawl's metagame SHOULD be far more advanced than it is now. At least to the point where you don't have people hacking it.

Right now, it's still uncertain if Brawl's metagame is going to fully develop, or just get stuck at a ceiling. After all, there are STILL advanced techs in melee being discovered.
This is still an unlikely chance. Brawl's metagame was specifically designed so it wasn't complex or complicated, so there is absolutely no question that Brawl wil have a lower metagame ceiling than melee. This wouldn't normally mean it isn't less balanced, but with the case of Brawl, that may be.

Sheik wasn't seriously considered ban worthy in melee, but she was still really good. Almost unbeatable. Still, because of melee's metagame, we slowly progressed and discovered newer ways to help even out the playing field.
In Brawl, that may not be the similar case. Metaknight is in the same situation as sheik, but worse. Brawl's metagame has a lower ceiling, allowing less improvement to balance the problem out. Metaknight will either be banned, or will remain god tier forever. It's hard to see metagame improve past the point where meta drops in tier levels like sheik did. Metaknight's priority, speed, range can't be altered by metagame, and that's why he's doing so well, and will continue to do well.
Since the metagame might not be as adaptable in Brawl, the gameplay won't evolve further than what it began with. This doesn't just affect meta's situation, but the overall balance of the game.

Still, it is impossible to determine if there will or will not be a breakthrough at some point, because it's impossible to tell. All I'm saying is that is unlikely.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

"but as a game in general, simply due to it's release date, it is more balanced for players."

That is in no way shape or form saying "more people are good at brawl" if anything that statement leads to the conclusion that more people are better at melee.



The game may be better in your eyes and irreplaceable, but the fact of the matter is that Brawl is here to stay, and Melee is falling further and further away from having a true competitive scene.

I don't know about you, but playing against the same exact people over and over again isn't nearly as fun as meeting new people and playing against them (and being able to win money at the same time).

Melee is dying, Brawl is picking up. Play Brawl, or end up playing the same people over and over again (this is assuming you continue gaming in general, surely there are other games out there that you would enjoy?)

So what does it mean then? If it's "more balanced because of it's release date" what you're really saying is that new players don't do as poorly because they aren't as far behind anymore. Therefore more people are "good" at brawl (relatively speaking). As for the rest, I don't really care who I'm playing with as long as it's fun for me. And it's not like I'm going to run out of opponents or anything. I've likely played less than 1% of the melee population in the entire time it's been out. Neither did I say melee is irreplaceable , just that, in my eyes, this particular game is not it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I think the two communities are co-existing nicely.

I think tensions start flaring up once ******** topics like this appear.

Agreed.

...then you look at the Melee boards and see the massive amounts of passive (and not-so-passive) aggressiveness/hostility towards Brawl.

 

[Dekar173]

That is EXACTLY what I meant.

I've had a few people pestering me to pick Melee back up after years of not playing/having no one but a computer to play against. That's simply not happening. My feelings are shared by many people, most of which who never really played Melee in the first place. People can sit here and complain about the game being broken all they want, but the fact of the matter is that they don't want to be playing against people who would make them look like Sandbag all day, and would rather just pick up Brawl.

Seeing more than 4 characters placing in the top 8 is a huge plus about playing Brawl (we've got MK banned here in NM, for the time being, to see how tourneys turn out).

Higher tiers may eventually establish themselves as dominant, but for now the tiers (minus metaknight) seem fine to me.

 

[PB&J]

even though i like melee way more than brawl, brawl is still more balnced than melee by far....u see toon link win brawl tournies, lucario,pika,diddy,olimar,zss,ddd,wario,falco,snake,mk,dk,and others..melee only had a few like 5 or 6..and in time there will be more characters winning tournies since the game is still new..so anybody who thinks differ , just wait and see..and banong mk is stupid many characters are giving him trouble these days look around..soon in like 6 months people will now way more how to fight mk and u not have to wotty so the whole banning mk thing is a poor thing to really learn the game

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Hell, a few months ago we found a new tech in melee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLu5972oPZc

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=111880

different? >_>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMxgGtMLEfw
also check out "Shield Drop" @ 0:21

 

[DRaGZ]

Agreed.

...then you look at the Melee boards and see the massive amounts of passive (and not-so-passive) aggressiveness/hostility towards Brawl.

They're just being childish.

I exhibited this exact same behavior a long time ago back when I used to play a lot of Mech games. For a time, the premiere mech game for everyone to play was Starsiege. Everyone played it, and it was a blast. Suddenly, however, Mechwarrior 4 came about, and everyone started jumping ship to Mechwarrior 4, the general sentiment being that it was "greener pastures". Even my clan leader jumped ship and basically abandoned our clan to play this game.

Of course, Mechwarrior 4 wasn't necessarily a superior game. If anything it allowed flaws which arose in games like Starsiege, such as spawn-point/resource camping and the overuse of mines and missiles, to flourish and prosper, but people flocked to it because it was newer, had more options, and it looked a lot cooler. Of course, everyone left in the Starsiege moped about, feeling sorry for ourselves, resenting Mechwarrior 4 and pointing out the many ways in which Starsiege was better. We brooded for quite a while, until finally so many people had left that we were left resorting to gimmicky "football" games and maps similar to Forge from Halo 3 but didn't work nearly as well.

And now, I realize that was silly because it was just a game. I realized that the only thing I was hanging onto was the game when what I should have been caring about was the people. Back then, I failed to see the difference, but now I know that the people that make up a community are what makes a game most interesting, so the game that you ultimately choose to play may be entirely inconsequential, as long as it isn't completely stupid like Soulcalibur 3 was.

I think a big problem people who are having major gripes in the Melee community are having is that Melee had "such a cool community" whereas Brawl is "full of whiny scrubs and newbs". I think they fail to realize that had Melee been as highly anticipated as Brawl, they probably would've gone through the same surge of "whiny scrubs and newbs" as well, not to mention the fact that nothing in their community is worth any more than our community. In turn, the Brawl community begins resenting the Melee community for resenting it, thus passive-aggressive threads like this start.

It's not necessarily a factual dispute, just biased perspectives on either side. People need to differentiate the people and the community from the game, then they'll start realizing it's not that different on either side.

 

[null55]

Wow, will everyone please stop referring to Melee in the past tense.

The truth is, in Brawl, talent is far more important than skill. Your ability to understand the game with your head is something that some people just don't have, and tech skill in Melee those people can practice (some learn it faster) is more important for them to do well. Bad players will be bad players in Brawl. Good players will be good. It was a little more escapable for Melee. Two people using Fox, one has slightly better mind games, the other has far better tech skill. The latter fox will most likely win. Two players using MK. One is smarter. He will win.

...
In Melee, it doesn't matter who you're playing with, everyone is going to have a ***** of a time with a decent amount of characters. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in the top and high tiers are ****ing sick. I'm scared of people who are good with all of them. Middle tier characters are generally a different story, but you can always be scared of really good Samus', Docs, and Gdorfs. The point is, in Melee all characters are potentially really, really good not only because of the mind of the player, but his fingers. That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S, IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE...

Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl. A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.

 

[Tenki]

I tend to stay away from discussions like this, but...

That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE...

That mindset I highlighted in bold.

I notice that in a large majority of Brawl matches, people hold shield way too long and take way too much time to punish things, whether it's Sonic doing dash attack, a spindash combo, all the way up to Metaknight's aerials, tornado, shuttle loop, and D-smash.

"baw baw Metaknight is so hard to punish!!! he's so broken!!"

It seems like people who have played/were good at Melee previously are the ones who don't seem to mind Metaknight as much because it seems they must have come across something when playing against him. Maybe it was a conscious realization, or maybe they just subconsciously reawakened those nimble-finger reflexes that they used in Melee, but those small openings require a bit of speed on the player's side (mentally and physically) to punish.

I'm not really sure if that had anything to do with this discussion, but... yeah. I felt like ranting about something.

 

[null55]

"baw baw Metaknight is so hard to punish!!! he's so broken!!"

It seems like people who have played/were good at Melee previously are the ones who don't seem to mind Metaknight as much because it seems they must have come across something when playing against him. Maybe it was a conscious realization, or maybe they just subconsciously reawakened those nimble-finger reflexes that they used in Melee, but those small openings require a bit of speed on the player's side (mentally and physically) to punish.

I'm not really sure if that had anything to do with this discussion, but... yeah. I felt like ranting about something.

I mean, that makes sense, you didn't have to shroud your point with strange relationships... people who played Melee can play Brawl more quickly than people who started with Brawl. That's generally a fact.


But I was referring to something much, much more general. I was talking about the connection between a player's tech skill and the character's ability.

What makes Melee more balanced is that a bad character used by a great player can make up for its disadvantages in a match up with a combination of good tech skill (TO PULL OF COMBOS, which don't really exist in Brawl) and mindgames.

Space animals are amazing in Melee, but they can still get ***** because they are easily comboed. Everyone in Brawl is floaty and gay. You can be smarter than your opponent in Brawl, but character ability is too important in Brawl because you can't make up for **** with combos and general tech skill.

Melee can be seen as more balanced in this case... Top tier characters are balanced because they are more easily comboed.

 

[brinboy789]

*ignore this post*

by request of CJ love

 

[null55]

Lol... I started editing before I saw your post. I actually invalidated those examples after I had posted and finished editing after you had posted, which is gay.

 

[Shaya]

Well, not like it compares as much, but Mr Top of Top Tier MK can be grab released by just about everybody. And many many characters have "combos" out of this. Marth, Bowser, Yoshi, Captain Falcon? even. R.O.B. can be combo'd off the edge as his recovery stops him from dodging... Brawl top tiers have large glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by the right characters/people...

 

[metaXzero]

Well, not like it compares as much, but Mr Top of Top Tier MK can be grab released by just about everybody. And many many characters have "combos" out of this. Marth, Bowser, Yoshi, Captain Falcon? even. R.O.B. can be combo'd off the edge as his recovery stops him from dodging... Brawl top tiers have large glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by the right characters/people...

And Melee doesn't?

 

[PB&J]

melee top tiers have a weekness, but comboing fox and falco are nothing compared to one shin e spike or death combo with falco...and sheik is just broken all around in melee..one needle can go thru a fully charge shot from samus and she ***** everyone in the game except fox and icy's which is even...then we go to marth which can ken combo the world and has ten sheilds with his uptilt, grab range better than young links, and he can tipper, then we get to peach, down smash can cause up to 80%, she has a death turnip, beam sord and float cancel wich is faster than the l cancel, next in line is c.f. the reason many people play melee, he can combo the world, and looks good doing it, icy's..unlike bralw can be really aggresive and chain grab everybody where nobody can chain grab them, and last but not least we have jiggly puff, best recover, best back air, and can kill in one move, the rest of the characters get ***** by these ones


then we get to brawl
mk-really gay spam, up b god, and can gimp, second best recoverary( first is pit) but many characters give him hard time..snake..don't beleive me watch dsf vs m2k and many others, zss can keep mk away from her better than most, diddy kong- annoys the crap out of him with banana's and can combo him very well..watch ninja link ,g&w- kills him at 45% with a fully charge up smash and can't get edge guarded easy like others can by mk..dk-equals good spacing and hard to kill and very strong and fast, luigi- does pretty good vs mk these days and is sexy, marth played right can space him self to get quick and easy kills on mk, rob can spam and edge guard mk pretty good, pika is annoying and falco can do well against him..yoshi- yeah i said it can chaingrab him easily watch pride and a few other character arent so bad....

the reason i picked mk is most people in brawl today are complaining how mk is broken and should be banned, he's in a teir of his own, and its impossible to beat a average mk and a few other obstacles they put in there brain, but the fact is the game is new and people are learning many things to get around him and win tournies with other characters..i seen wario win..watch reflex, zss-snakee,diddy kong, snake-lucario-azen, rob-cpu evo 2008 vs ken, dk-bum like every week, falco, d1, and many more

melee is fox falco marth sheik, puff,c.f.-extremely hard, and icy's

brawl is still new and it came out this year so if those many characters are winning now ..in the future many more will win so brawl is more balanced


and i like melee 100times more than brawl

 

[metaXzero]

PB&J. In the future its more likely that LESS characters will win tournys as time goes on. It happened with Melee (Melee had more diverse placings early on) and it happens with other fighters (don't say Brawl isn't a traditional fighter, that's invalid here).

 

[Backward]

Wow, will everyone please stop referring to Melee in the past tense.

The truth is, in Brawl, talent is far more important than skill. Your ability to understand the game with your head is something that some people just don't have, and tech skill in Melee those people can practice (some learn it faster) is more important for them to do well. Bad players will be bad players in Brawl. Good players will be good. It was a little more escapable for Melee. Two people using Fox, one has slightly better mind games, the other has far better tech skill. The latter fox will most likely win. Two players using MK. One is smarter. He will win.

...
In Melee, it doesn't matter who you're playing with, everyone is going to have a ***** of a time with a decent amount of characters. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in the top and high tiers are ****ing sick. I'm scared of people who are good with all of them. Middle tier characters are generally a different story, but you can always be scared of really good Samus', Docs, and Gdorfs. The point is, in Melee all characters are potentially really, really good not only because of the mind of the player, but his fingers. That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S, IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE...

Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl. A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.

That's interesting, to say the least. It's a misconception some people tend to have about Melee, was that combos made the game what it was. In a way, combos do make a large part of the game, serving as the appropriate reward/ punishment. The good thing about them was that it was often possible to DI out of them. If you were proficient at reading your opponents' options, you were more likely to get an attack in. If you weren't, any decent opponent would escape.

People like to think Brawl had more mindgames and that Melee had less. Of course, they can't be blamed for it. The truth however, is that Brawl has more emphasis on the baiting/ predicting part of the game. Only because that was all it has. In Brawl, you do a large varoety of spacing to get one/ two hits in. Then you retreat and repeat.

Melee, in contrast, actually has more room for mindgames thanks to the wide variety of options characters had. Can MK wavedash out of shield? It had less emphasis (although it was still the a large part of the game), and that's all there is to it.

Speed might have been very important in Melee, but what seperated the good people from the lesser people was also the push-and-pull game. If tech skill made Melee, the scene would have been very different. The top people in Melee definitely had excellent tech skill, but if you've ever played Melee competitively before you'll know that being able to pull off insane technical stuff didn't make you good. That's exactly why you see the people who were top in Melee being top in Brawl. They're basically doing the same stuff they did back in Melee, just around three times slower.

 

[Yuna]

Wow, will everyone please stop referring to Melee in the past tense.

The truth is, in Brawl, talent is far more important than skill. Your ability to understand the game with your head is something that some people just don't have, and tech skill in Melee those people can practice (some learn it faster) is more important for them to do well. Bad players will be bad players in Brawl. Good players will be good. It was a little more escapable for Melee. Two people using Fox, one has slightly better mind games, the other has far better tech skill. The latter fox will most likely win. Two players using MK. One is smarter. He will win.

BS. Given the right characters, tech skill is still a defining factor in Brawl and you can still win with superior tech skill. Tech skill has never won anyone major tournaments.

It's always been mindgames. The Melee techs aren't even that hard. The people dwelling on them are the ones too lazy or talentless to actually learn them. Come back to me when you've mastered Soul Calibur just frames and GGXXXAC's various Millia gatlings.

...
In Melee, it doesn't matter who you're playing with, everyone is going to have a ***** of a time with a decent amount of characters. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in the top and high tiers are ****ing sick. I'm scared of people who are good with all of them. Middle tier characters are generally a different story, but you can always be scared of really good Samus', Docs, and Gdorfs. The point is, in Melee all characters are potentially really, really good not only because of the mind of the player, but his fingers. That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S, IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE..

Pray tell, how the hell did you come to this conclusion?!

Why is movement important? To open up for mindgames. It's not like the faster you move, the more you win.

And what possible facts do you have to show that characters' inherent abilities are more important in Brawl than in Melee? And how does this automatically equal more balance, anyway? You're supposed to show more balance between the characters in their respective games, not how the metagames are different.

Yes, they are different, that's a no-brainer. Now prove one is more balanced than the other.

Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl.

Wow, I read your entire post all wrong, didn't I? You seem to think balance means the ability to win because of skill and not because of character chosen, even if the characters involved is the same character (dittos). That's not the balance we're talking about.

We're talking about the balance between characters.

A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.

If the player with the advantage is bad and/or stupid, I guess.

That's interesting, to say the least. It's a misconception some people tend to have about Melee, was that combos made the game what it was. In a way, combos do make a large part of the game, serving as the appropriate reward/ punishment. The good thing about them was that it was often possible to DI out of them. If you were proficient at reading your opponents' options, you were more likely to get an attack in. If you weren't, any decent opponent would escape.

Exactly. I DI out of Sheik's F-tilt on reaction a lot of the times. I airdodge jab-combos. I just randomly DI **** so well, I rarely get comboed for more than 2-3 hits at most.

It's not that hard. It just requires experience and reaction time.

A lot of people "debating" Melee's metagame has so little affinity and experience with it it's laughable.

 

[null55]

BS. Given the right characters, tech skill is still a defining factor in Brawl and you can still win with superior tech skill. Tech skill has never won anyone major tournaments.

It's always been mindgames. The Melee techs aren't even that hard. The people dwelling on them are the ones too lazy or talentless to actually learn them. Come back to me when you've mastered Soul Calibur just frames and GGXXXAC's various Millia gatlings.

All I meant was that in Melee, a player who is not good at mind games can still be okay ("it was more escapable", I never said they would win major tournaments AT ALL). Like using Fox, if you have insanely good tech skill, you don't need to be THAT smart to be at least decent. In Brawl, your inherent ability matters more compared to what tech skill you need, plus the options you have tech skill-wise in Brawl aren't extensive as in Melee. At all...

In other words: Huge technical ability isn't as necessary in Brawl as it is in Melee, but intelligence is still really important. That is all I was saying.

Pray tell, how the hell did you come to this conclusion?!

Why is movement important? To open up for mindgames. It's not like the faster you move, the more you win.

And what possible facts do you have to show that characters' inherent abilities are more important in Brawl than in Melee? And how does this automatically equal more balance, anyway? You're supposed to show more balance between the characters in their respective games, not how the metagames are different.

Yes, they are different, that's a no-brainer. Now prove one is more balanced than the other.

WDing and shuffling allow you to not only perform mind games, but to combo. Every character could combo well if you could control it well enough. Even simple and short make a difference. In Brawl, you don't have this luxury. What I meant when I said that a character's inherent ability is more important, is that because you can't combo and you don't have as many tools in mindgaming with some characters, how capable a character is becomes more important. Mewtwo could be insane if used correctly. Brawl Falcon doesn't have as many options.

That's why I think the roster is more balanced... Melee has hitstun and gives you more tools to mind game, so how a player used a character can make a bigger difference.

If the player with the advantage is bad and/or stupid, I guess.

Or just not as good as you. Not necessarily stupid. Taj's Mewtwo can beat Forward's Falco. Taj is a better player, but Forward's not stupid. The point is that a bottom tier could beat a top tier. How often do you see that happen in Brawl...

Yes, I enjoy using Mewtwo for examples.

A lot of people "debating" Melee's metagame has so little affinity and experience with it it's laughable.

I certainly won't say I'm an exception. Just thought I'd challenge this thread with things that I feel I've learned in my short time playing both games.

 

[Yuna]

All I meant was that in Melee, a player who is not good at mind games can still be okay ("it was more escapable", I never said they would win major tournaments AT ALL). Like using Fox, if you have insanely good tech skill, you don't need to be THAT smart to be at least decent. In Brawl, your inherent ability matters more compared to what tech skill you need, plus the options you have tech skill-wise in Brawl aren't extensive as in Melee. At all...

Mindgames > All. A Fox who's good with tech skill vs. A Fox who's good with mindgames (but not sucky at tech skill), the 2nd one wins. Yes, certain characters specialize in different things (duh), thus, Fox is a character who can do major damage due to tech skill.

However, without mindgames, he still won't win.

WDing and shuffling allow you to not only perform mind games, but to combo. Every character could combo well if you could control it well enough. Even simple and short make a difference. In Brawl, you don't have this luxury. What I meant when I said that a character's inherent ability is more important, is that because you can't combo and you don't have as many tools in mindgaming with some characters, how capable a character is becomes more important. Mewtwo could be insane if used correctly. Brawl Falcon doesn't have as many options.

How is it not an inherent ability to have quick and lagless moves that can be chained together into combos?

Peach has the inherent ability to dish out damage, but her combos are almost never ever long.

Also, ever heard of DI? I barely get comboed past 2-3 hits, 4 tops (rare). I just DI. People who think Melee was dial-a-combo clealy haven't leaned to DI properly.

Or just not as good as you. Not necessarily stupid. Taj's Mewtwo can beat Forward's Falco. Taj is a better player, but Forward's not stupid. The point is that a bottom tier could beat a top tier. How often do you see that happen in Brawl...

How often could Taj's Mewtwo beat Forward's Falco in a serious tournament match?

A player can be not-stupid, quite good but still bad at certain things, like certain matchups. Just because your name is Forward does not mean you automatically have Mewtwo experience, thus, you might lose to Taj's Mewtwo a few times. But if you're good, you'll learn and adapt.

If the advantage is large, you will eventually start winning.

 

[Ryuzaki4]

I believe that Brawl is more balanced,
however, the things that balance it also make it less competitive.

In melee the learning cure is pretty daunting for newer players (wavedash ect.)

But in brawl the pace is slower, and more characters are viable tournament options.

but thats just what i think...

 

[OverLade]

Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl. A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.

This is one of the smartest statements I've seen so far. Technical skill vs. smarts skill.

But I think Brawl is more balanced for the reason that while matchups make a bigger difference, "smarts" can overide those more easily than tech skill in melee (a pro Mewtwo vs. a pro fox is a hopeless match).

The amount of viable characters really is what makes brawl more balanced though, it is slightly less based on finger skill and more on smarts.

 

[null55]

Mindgames > All. A Fox who's good with tech skill vs. A Fox who's good with mindgames (but not sucky at tech skill), the 2nd one wins. Yes, certain characters specialize in different things (duh), thus, Fox is a character who can do major damage due to tech skill.

However, without mindgames, he still won't win.

If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.

How is it not an inherent ability to have quick and lagless moves that can be chained together into combos?

Peach has the inherent ability to dish out damage, but her combos are almost never ever long.

Also, ever heard of DI? I barely get comboed past 2-3 hits, 4 tops (rare). I just DI. People who think Melee was dial-a-combo clealy haven't leaned to DI properly.

said that a character's inherent ability matters more in Brawl because you can't make up by utilizing the abilities Melee gives you, that's why the lower tiers are so hindered. The top tiers are arguably pretty close in both games, that's not entirely the issue. In Melee, you can make up for characters being bad because you have more options in mindgaming and they can combo. Four hits in a combo in Melee is much more beneficial than one hit in Brawl. In Brawl you don't have as much freedom in correcting the imbalance for lower tiered characters, so their inherent abilities are more of an issue (that point might have been lost in the way I worded it initially.)

How often could Taj's Mewtwo beat Forward's Falco in a serious tournament match?

A player can be not-stupid, quite good but still bad at certain things, like certain matchups. Just because your name is Forward does not mean you automatically have Mewtwo experience, thus, you might lose to Taj's Mewtwo a few times. But if you're good, you'll learn and adapt.

If the advantage is large, you will eventually start winning.

There are lurking variables, but my point is that Mewtwo just has a lot more options as a bottom tiered character as players can take advantage of Melee's physics, than botton tiered Brawl characters do.

And... they're way more fun to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuuQCqvp_0s&feature=related

 

[Deathcarter]

If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.

Do realize that Fox is a character that relies heavily on tech skill. What about a Marth ditto? A Shiek Ditto? A Peach Ditto? The player with the better mindgames and par tech skill performs much better with the three characters I mentioned along with others than with a tech heavy character like Fox. Sorry for intruding though.









But on another note, Brawl has at least 14 viable characters plus the debatable ones like Pit, Wolf, Luigi, Toon Link, Olimar, Zero Suit Samus, and Peach. If you go with 14, that is .378 of the cast that is viable. Melee has 8 at least. That is .307 of the cast viable. And I am talking about characters that are viable, not only the ones that are also dominant. Although I will agree with you that the low tiers in Melee are better than the ones in Brawl, both groups of low tier characters are nothing compared to their top tier counterparts.

 

[OverLade]

If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.

That's because the players are close in skill obviously.

A smart bowser in brawl will destroy at dumb MK player. A smart Ike/Mario/Ganon can beat a mediocre snake player. In Melee, the player with the greater tech skill usually wins, and the best players are those with both tech skill and smarts.

said that a character's inherent ability matters more in Brawl because you can't make up by utilizing the abilities Melee gives you, that's why the lower tiers are so hindered. The top tiers are arguably pretty close in both games, that's not entirely the issue. In Melee, you can make up for characters being bad because you have more options in mindgaming and they can combo. Four hits in a combo in Melee is much more beneficial than one hit in Brawl. In Brawl you don't have as much freedom in correcting the imbalance for lower tiered characters, so their inherent abilities are more of an issue (that point might have been lost in the way I worded it initially.)

Brawl is already more balanced with character movesets to begin with so low tiers dont have this problem. Mewtwos moveset had NOTHING on falcos, so even a good mewtwo could lose to an average falco. In Brawl I can beat snake players with captain falcon just because I'm that much better than they are. The tier gap is smaller, so you don't need as many options.

There are lurking variables, but my point is that Mewtwo just has a lot more options as a bottom tiered character as players can take advantage of Melee's physics, than botton tiered Brawl characters do.

And... they're way more fun to watch

Not true at all. In brawl, low tiers are closer to high tiers than in melee, so it's not as hard for low tiers to beat high/top tiers.

And how fun it is to watch is irrelevant. >_>

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Is Brawl more balanced than melee?

... no

 

[momochuu]

It's not. These threads are kinda stupid.

*Looks at Metaknight*

 

[Yuna]

I believe that Brawl is more balanced,
however, the things that balance it also make it less competitive.

In melee the learning cure is pretty daunting for newer players (wavedash ect.)

But in brawl the pace is slower, and more characters are viable tournament options.

but thats just what i think...

This has absolutely nothing to do with game balance.

If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.

The gap in tech skill would have to be quite large for someone to lose to someone with clearly inferior mindgames.

Mindgames were just important in Melee as they were in Brawl, if not just for the fact that if you screwed up, there was more to lose.

said that a character's inherent ability matters more in Brawl because you can't make up by utilizing the abilities Melee gives you, that's why the lower tiers are so hindered.

Wavedashing et all did not unfairly favor either group. The techniques just made good characters better and less good characters less not-good.

Characters with fast moves and with little lag could already combo (kinda) even without L-canceling. L-canceling allowed them to combo more.

Fast characters could already run all over the place. Wavedashing, dashcanceling and the old dashdashing just made them faster.

The techniques didn't randomly add some abilities that weren't already inherent with the characters. They only enhanced them. So the amount of techniques in Melee didn't make it more or less balanced than Brawl (at least not in the sweeping way you're suggesting).

In Melee, you can make up for characters being bad because you have more options in mindgaming and they can combo.

The Tops combo better. That is why they are tops.

In Brawl, the Tops and Highs can still combo better than those below them (among other things). That is why they are Tops and Highs.

You seem to think Brawl is entirely comboless while Melee was dial-a-combo. Learn to DI better, then come back to me.

I DI Sheik's F-tilt on reaction, I airdodge jab-combos on prediction/reaction/random BS airdodges, I Upair out of CF's Dthrow to sometimes manage to skew my body so much as Peach that his knee misses and/or my Uair hits (or both hit).

Melee was not the dial-a-combo game some people believe it to be.

Four hits in a combo in Melee is much more beneficial than one hit in Brawl.

The Tops and Highs combo with 2-3 hits. What Brawl are you playing?

In Brawl you don't have as much freedom in correcting the imbalance for lower tiered characters, so their inherent abilities are more of an issue (that point might have been lost in the way I worded it initially.)

Are you even listening to yourself? The reason why the Tops were tops in Melee was because they were better. Nobody cares if there were techniques that let the sucky characters suck less. They still sucked in comparison to those who didn't suck.

The Tops and Highs (and Mids) were just that much better than the Low Tiers. It's the same as in Brawl. Even with these magical techniques you claim made the Sucks suck less, the Not Sucks were still better. The techniques didn't magically boost only the Low Tier, they also boosted the High Ties.

Oh, L-canceling allowed Pikachu to combo Dair into Dsmash? Well, it allows Sheik to combo Bair into Dashattack into Fair.

There are lurking variables, but my point is that Mewtwo just has a lot more options as a bottom tiered character as players can take advantage of Melee's physics, than botton tiered Brawl characters do.

He has options. MaFoFaSheap (Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach) and the others just have tons more.

Melee is more balanced than Brawl as far as I can tell, yes. But not for the reasons you think.

Not true at all. In brawl, low tiers are closer to high tiers than in melee, so it's not as hard for low tiers to beat high/top tiers.

O RLY? And you base this on what, exactly?

 

[smaci92]

no...*metaknight -_-*

but I still like brawl more than melee

 

[Gimpyfish62]

here's my blog on aib about high level competitive melee

i think it applies nicely to what some people here seem to be saying.

posted to the public at 7:44 PM on Thursday Oct 16, 2008

High level competitive Melee was 100% about who could press one particular button combination on the controller the fastest - this differs based on character choice but let's be honest every truly competitive Melee player uses Fox. The result would be (if you are pressing the combination fast enough) a zero to death combo every stock without the opponent having a chance to escape and nothing more - it's a glorified Mario Party game really.

Man - us Melee vets sure fooled you guys.

ggz

 

[null55]

The only points I've made that we've sort of danced around with in these past posts were that in Melee, you have more tools to mindgame and more hitstun so that you can combo. This allowed lower tiered characters to possibly beat top tier characters with enough skill from the player. In Brawl, you don't have these kinds of options for bottom tiered characters. I never said lower tiered characters were inherently able to take down top tiers... that's what makes them low tier, they're worse... I'm saying Melee gave you more breathing room... more options to work with. Brawl doesn't. A skilled smasher who has mastered a lower tier character in Melee has a better chance of beating a top tier than he does in Brawl. Those are my claims...

You're saying that this is incorrect? I'm not trying to be abrasive, I really just want to know.