Dark Sonic
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They still play SF2 in tournaments.did it ?
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They still play SF2 in tournaments.did it ?
Brawl and Melee aren't your typical fighting games.^Did SF2 scene die when SF3 came out? huh?
We still play melee today.Brawl and Melee aren't your typical fighting games.
But it's shrinking in others. Even you must realize that.We still play melee today.
It's actually growing in a lot of places (Atlantic South for one).
By that same notion, brawl is shrinking in some areas as well (the places where melee is growing).But it's shrinking in others. Even you must realize that.
That's pretty sweet actually, yeesh I really need to go to melee boards more often
qftI think the two communities are co-existing nicely.
I think tensions start flaring up once ******** topics like this appear.
So what does it mean then? If it's "more balanced because of it's release date" what you're really saying is that new players don't do as poorly because they aren't as far behind anymore. Therefore more people are "good" at brawl (relatively speaking). As for the rest, I don't really care who I'm playing with as long as it's fun for me. And it's not like I'm going to run out of opponents or anything. I've likely played less than 1% of the melee population in the entire time it's been out. Neither did I say melee is irreplaceable , just that, in my eyes, this particular game is not it."but as a game in general, simply due to it's release date, it is more balanced for players."
That is in no way shape or form saying "more people are good at brawl" if anything that statement leads to the conclusion that more people are better at melee.
The game may be better in your eyes and irreplaceable, but the fact of the matter is that Brawl is here to stay, and Melee is falling further and further away from having a true competitive scene.
I don't know about you, but playing against the same exact people over and over again isn't nearly as fun as meeting new people and playing against them (and being able to win money at the same time).
Melee is dying, Brawl is picking up. Play Brawl, or end up playing the same people over and over again (this is assuming you continue gaming in general, surely there are other games out there that you would enjoy?)
Agreed.I think the two communities are co-existing nicely.
I think tensions start flaring up once ******** topics like this appear.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=111880
They're just being childish.Agreed.
...then you look at the Melee boards and see the massive amounts of passive (and not-so-passive) aggressiveness/hostility towards Brawl.
That mindset I highlighted in bold.That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE...
I mean, that makes sense, you didn't have to shroud your point with strange relationships... people who played Melee can play Brawl more quickly than people who started with Brawl. That's generally a fact."baw baw Metaknight is so hard to punish!!! he's so broken!!"
It seems like people who have played/were good at Melee previously are the ones who don't seem to mind Metaknight as much because it seems they must have come across something when playing against him. Maybe it was a conscious realization, or maybe they just subconsciously reawakened those nimble-finger reflexes that they used in Melee, but those small openings require a bit of speed on the player's side (mentally and physically) to punish.
I'm not really sure if that had anything to do with this discussion, but... yeah. I felt like ranting about something.
And Melee doesn't?Well, not like it compares as much, but Mr Top of Top Tier MK can be grab released by just about everybody. And many many characters have "combos" out of this. Marth, Bowser, Yoshi, Captain Falcon? even. R.O.B. can be combo'd off the edge as his recovery stops him from dodging... Brawl top tiers have large glaring weaknesses that can be exploited by the right characters/people...
That's interesting, to say the least. It's a misconception some people tend to have about Melee, was that combos made the game what it was. In a way, combos do make a large part of the game, serving as the appropriate reward/ punishment. The good thing about them was that it was often possible to DI out of them. If you were proficient at reading your opponents' options, you were more likely to get an attack in. If you weren't, any decent opponent would escape.Wow, will everyone please stop referring to Melee in the past tense.
The truth is, in Brawl, talent is far more important than skill. Your ability to understand the game with your head is something that some people just don't have, and tech skill in Melee those people can practice (some learn it faster) is more important for them to do well. Bad players will be bad players in Brawl. Good players will be good. It was a little more escapable for Melee. Two people using Fox, one has slightly better mind games, the other has far better tech skill. The latter fox will most likely win. Two players using MK. One is smarter. He will win.
...
In Melee, it doesn't matter who you're playing with, everyone is going to have a ***** of a time with a decent amount of characters. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in the top and high tiers are ****ing sick. I'm scared of people who are good with all of them. Middle tier characters are generally a different story, but you can always be scared of really good Samus', Docs, and Gdorfs. The point is, in Melee all characters are potentially really, really good not only because of the mind of the player, but his fingers. That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S, IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE...
Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl. A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.
BS. Given the right characters, tech skill is still a defining factor in Brawl and you can still win with superior tech skill. Tech skill has never won anyone major tournaments.Wow, will everyone please stop referring to Melee in the past tense.
The truth is, in Brawl, talent is far more important than skill. Your ability to understand the game with your head is something that some people just don't have, and tech skill in Melee those people can practice (some learn it faster) is more important for them to do well. Bad players will be bad players in Brawl. Good players will be good. It was a little more escapable for Melee. Two people using Fox, one has slightly better mind games, the other has far better tech skill. The latter fox will most likely win. Two players using MK. One is smarter. He will win.
Pray tell, how the hell did you come to this conclusion?!...
In Melee, it doesn't matter who you're playing with, everyone is going to have a ***** of a time with a decent amount of characters. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in the top and high tiers are ****ing sick. I'm scared of people who are good with all of them. Middle tier characters are generally a different story, but you can always be scared of really good Samus', Docs, and Gdorfs. The point is, in Melee all characters are potentially really, really good not only because of the mind of the player, but his fingers. That's the thing, movement is extremely important in Melee, that is your ability to move and execute moves as quickly as possible. Of course, this needs to be coupled with a mind that can get around your opponent's defenses. In Brawl, only the latter is truly important, since the former is so simple that anyone can really do it. And that's what hinders lower tiered characters BECAUSE THE CHARACTER'S INHERENT ABILITY, NOT THE PLAYER'S, IS MORE IMPORTANT IN BRAWL THAN IT WAS IN MELEE..
Wow, I read your entire post all wrong, didn't I? You seem to think balance means the ability to win because of skill and not because of character chosen, even if the characters involved is the same character (dittos). That's not the balance we're talking about.Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl.
If the player with the advantage is bad and/or stupid, I guess.A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.
Exactly. I DI out of Sheik's F-tilt on reaction a lot of the times. I airdodge jab-combos. I just randomly DI **** so well, I rarely get comboed for more than 2-3 hits at most.That's interesting, to say the least. It's a misconception some people tend to have about Melee, was that combos made the game what it was. In a way, combos do make a large part of the game, serving as the appropriate reward/ punishment. The good thing about them was that it was often possible to DI out of them. If you were proficient at reading your opponents' options, you were more likely to get an attack in. If you weren't, any decent opponent would escape.
All I meant was that in Melee, a player who is not good at mind games can still be okay ("it was more escapable", I never said they would win major tournaments AT ALL). Like using Fox, if you have insanely good tech skill, you don't need to be THAT smart to be at least decent. In Brawl, your inherent ability matters more compared to what tech skill you need, plus the options you have tech skill-wise in Brawl aren't extensive as in Melee. At all...BS. Given the right characters, tech skill is still a defining factor in Brawl and you can still win with superior tech skill. Tech skill has never won anyone major tournaments.
It's always been mindgames. The Melee techs aren't even that hard. The people dwelling on them are the ones too lazy or talentless to actually learn them. Come back to me when you've mastered Soul Calibur just frames and GGXXXAC's various Millia gatlings.
WDing and shuffling allow you to not only perform mind games, but to combo. Every character could combo well if you could control it well enough. Even simple and short make a difference. In Brawl, you don't have this luxury. What I meant when I said that a character's inherent ability is more important, is that because you can't combo and you don't have as many tools in mindgaming with some characters, how capable a character is becomes more important. Mewtwo could be insane if used correctly. Brawl Falcon doesn't have as many options.Pray tell, how the hell did you come to this conclusion?!
Why is movement important? To open up for mindgames. It's not like the faster you move, the more you win.
And what possible facts do you have to show that characters' inherent abilities are more important in Brawl than in Melee? And how does this automatically equal more balance, anyway? You're supposed to show more balance between the characters in their respective games, not how the metagames are different.
Yes, they are different, that's a no-brainer. Now prove one is more balanced than the other.
Or just not as good as you. Not necessarily stupid. Taj's Mewtwo can beat Forward's Falco. Taj is a better player, but Forward's not stupid. The point is that a bottom tier could beat a top tier. How often do you see that happen in Brawl...If the player with the advantage is bad and/or stupid, I guess.
I certainly won't say I'm an exception. Just thought I'd challenge this thread with things that I feel I've learned in my short time playing both games.A lot of people "debating" Melee's metagame has so little affinity and experience with it it's laughable.
Mindgames > All. A Fox who's good with tech skill vs. A Fox who's good with mindgames (but not sucky at tech skill), the 2nd one wins. Yes, certain characters specialize in different things (duh), thus, Fox is a character who can do major damage due to tech skill.All I meant was that in Melee, a player who is not good at mind games can still be okay ("it was more escapable", I never said they would win major tournaments AT ALL). Like using Fox, if you have insanely good tech skill, you don't need to be THAT smart to be at least decent. In Brawl, your inherent ability matters more compared to what tech skill you need, plus the options you have tech skill-wise in Brawl aren't extensive as in Melee. At all...
How is it not an inherent ability to have quick and lagless moves that can be chained together into combos?WDing and shuffling allow you to not only perform mind games, but to combo. Every character could combo well if you could control it well enough. Even simple and short make a difference. In Brawl, you don't have this luxury. What I meant when I said that a character's inherent ability is more important, is that because you can't combo and you don't have as many tools in mindgaming with some characters, how capable a character is becomes more important. Mewtwo could be insane if used correctly. Brawl Falcon doesn't have as many options.
How often could Taj's Mewtwo beat Forward's Falco in a serious tournament match?Or just not as good as you. Not necessarily stupid. Taj's Mewtwo can beat Forward's Falco. Taj is a better player, but Forward's not stupid. The point is that a bottom tier could beat a top tier. How often do you see that happen in Brawl...
This is one of the smartest statements I've seen so far. Technical skill vs. smarts skill.Therefore, I really don't think the game is as balanced as Melee. Player skill over character skill matters more in Melee than it does in Brawl. A lot of match-ups, including big disadvantages can go either way as a result.
If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.Mindgames > All. A Fox who's good with tech skill vs. A Fox who's good with mindgames (but not sucky at tech skill), the 2nd one wins. Yes, certain characters specialize in different things (duh), thus, Fox is a character who can do major damage due to tech skill.
However, without mindgames, he still won't win.
said that a character's inherent ability matters more in Brawl because you can't make up by utilizing the abilities Melee gives you, that's why the lower tiers are so hindered. The top tiers are arguably pretty close in both games, that's not entirely the issue. In Melee, you can make up for characters being bad because you have more options in mindgaming and they can combo. Four hits in a combo in Melee is much more beneficial than one hit in Brawl. In Brawl you don't have as much freedom in correcting the imbalance for lower tiered characters, so their inherent abilities are more of an issue (that point might have been lost in the way I worded it initially.)How is it not an inherent ability to have quick and lagless moves that can be chained together into combos?
Peach has the inherent ability to dish out damage, but her combos are almost never ever long.
Also, ever heard of DI? I barely get comboed past 2-3 hits, 4 tops (rare). I just DI. People who think Melee was dial-a-combo clealy haven't leaned to DI properly.
There are lurking variables, but my point is that Mewtwo just has a lot more options as a bottom tiered character as players can take advantage of Melee's physics, than botton tiered Brawl characters do.How often could Taj's Mewtwo beat Forward's Falco in a serious tournament match?
A player can be not-stupid, quite good but still bad at certain things, like certain matchups. Just because your name is Forward does not mean you automatically have Mewtwo experience, thus, you might lose to Taj's Mewtwo a few times. But if you're good, you'll learn and adapt.
If the advantage is large, you will eventually start winning.
Do realize that Fox is a character that relies heavily on tech skill. What about a Marth ditto? A Shiek Ditto? A Peach Ditto? The player with the better mindgames and par tech skill performs much better with the three characters I mentioned along with others than with a tech heavy character like Fox. Sorry for intruding though.If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.
That's because the players are close in skill obviously.If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.
Brawl is already more balanced with character movesets to begin with so low tiers dont have this problem. Mewtwos moveset had NOTHING on falcos, so even a good mewtwo could lose to an average falco. In Brawl I can beat snake players with captain falcon just because I'm that much better than they are. The tier gap is smaller, so you don't need as many options.said that a character's inherent ability matters more in Brawl because you can't make up by utilizing the abilities Melee gives you, that's why the lower tiers are so hindered. The top tiers are arguably pretty close in both games, that's not entirely the issue. In Melee, you can make up for characters being bad because you have more options in mindgaming and they can combo. Four hits in a combo in Melee is much more beneficial than one hit in Brawl. In Brawl you don't have as much freedom in correcting the imbalance for lower tiered characters, so their inherent abilities are more of an issue (that point might have been lost in the way I worded it initially.)
Not true at all. In brawl, low tiers are closer to high tiers than in melee, so it's not as hard for low tiers to beat high/top tiers.There are lurking variables, but my point is that Mewtwo just has a lot more options as a bottom tiered character as players can take advantage of Melee's physics, than botton tiered Brawl characters do.
And... they're way more fun to watch
... noIs Brawl more balanced than melee?
This has absolutely nothing to do with game balance.I believe that Brawl is more balanced,
however, the things that balance it also make it less competitive.
In melee the learning cure is pretty daunting for newer players (wavedash ect.)
But in brawl the pace is slower, and more characters are viable tournament options.
but thats just what i think...
The gap in tech skill would have to be quite large for someone to lose to someone with clearly inferior mindgames.If a Fox has an insane amount of tech skill but isn't that smart vs a fox with par tech skill and good mind games, the former can still win. I'm just saying that if you do practice really, really hard in Melee, you stretch the boundaries of what you can do to some extent, even if your not talented in thinking. It doesn't seem that way in Brawl. Some people become smart too slow, and they can make up for it with hard work.
Wavedashing et all did not unfairly favor either group. The techniques just made good characters better and less good characters less not-good.said that a character's inherent ability matters more in Brawl because you can't make up by utilizing the abilities Melee gives you, that's why the lower tiers are so hindered.
The Tops combo better. That is why they are tops.In Melee, you can make up for characters being bad because you have more options in mindgaming and they can combo.
The Tops and Highs combo with 2-3 hits. What Brawl are you playing?Four hits in a combo in Melee is much more beneficial than one hit in Brawl.
Are you even listening to yourself? The reason why the Tops were tops in Melee was because they were better. Nobody cares if there were techniques that let the sucky characters suck less. They still sucked in comparison to those who didn't suck.In Brawl you don't have as much freedom in correcting the imbalance for lower tiered characters, so their inherent abilities are more of an issue (that point might have been lost in the way I worded it initially.)
He has options. MaFoFaSheap (Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach) and the others just have tons more.There are lurking variables, but my point is that Mewtwo just has a lot more options as a bottom tiered character as players can take advantage of Melee's physics, than botton tiered Brawl characters do.
O RLY? And you base this on what, exactly?Not true at all. In brawl, low tiers are closer to high tiers than in melee, so it's not as hard for low tiers to beat high/top tiers.
High Level Competitive Melee by: Gimpyfish said:posted to the public at 7:44 PM on Thursday Oct 16, 2008
High level competitive Melee was 100% about who could press one particular button combination on the controller the fastest - this differs based on character choice but let's be honest every truly competitive Melee player uses Fox. The result would be (if you are pressing the combination fast enough) a zero to death combo every stock without the opponent having a chance to escape and nothing more - it's a glorified Mario Party game really.
Man - us Melee vets sure fooled you guys.
ggz